Laughing Storm Reborn Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 The fight between Robert and Rhaegar isn´t the best example of "single combat" contest... they fought on horseback, wich is Rhaegar´s best chance with his excellent jousting abilities, and that fight was after Robert had been on the frontlines for a year with a serious injury in mid-war on his plate to back it up... the best example would be a trial by combat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: Sandor would rank higher than Beric, etc. Even that wouldn't tell the whole story. Though we saw their final fight through Arya's POV, apparently Beric had bested the Hound in tourney melees before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 On 2/9/2016 at 2:07 PM, Kenton Stark said: I didn't want to side track another poster's thread, so I started a new one. James Steller started a post about the best fighters in Westeros. Great topic but a lot of the lists are arbitrary and very subjective. So I started a list with the fighters given a specific grade. Now I understand the grade is just MHO , but I think I can at least somewhat objectively justify the grade I gave each fighter. Would love to see others thoughts. Feel free to add someone I missed, disagree with my grades, question my rationale, etc. I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone thinks. Let me get this straight. Grouping in categories like Elite, Exceptional, Above Average, etc. is arbitrary and subjective. BUT if you assign an arbitrary and subjective number to them it becomes an objective ranking method. I think I must be missing something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Stark Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 27 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: I think you don't know what "objective" means. I was hoping for a thread where every fighter was ranked against those who they have fought against - e.g. Robert would rank higher than Rhaegar, Sandor would rank higher than Beric, etc. Robert did rank higher than Rhaegar and the Hound did rank higher than Beric based somewhat on the fact the did fight in the text. If that's your objection to my list, I'm confused by your rationale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Stark Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 17 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said: Let me get this straight. Grouping in categories like Elite, Exceptional, Above Average, etc. is arbitrary and subjective. BUT if you assign an arbitrary and subjective number to them it becomes an objective ranking method. I think I must be missing something here. I tried to assign a number based on the text to separate fighters at the same level. For example Selmy and young Robert are both Elite, but per SSM Selmy is better so he has a slightly higher score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Stark Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 48 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: That´s fine, it´s just an opinion... but remember Lyonel was pretty well older than Duncan at that time...and we still did not see the fight... Prime Robert has feats and writer/character quotes to make him inferior to no one, superior than Dayne or Selmy he might not be but inferior he surely isn´t imo Good point about Lyonel. But I think it goes back to the SSM about Selmy and Arthur being the best. Based on that, I feel Prime Robert is just a shade under their level. But that just MHO and I enjoy well thought out intelligent counter points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, Kenton Stark said: Robert did rank higher than Rhaegar and the Hound did rank higher than Beric based somewhat on the fact the did fight in the text. If that's your objection to my list, I'm confused by your rationale. My problem is that it's not objective, it's based on personal judgment on a lot of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Bloody Sword Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: That´s fine, it´s just an opinion... but remember Lyonel was pretty well older than Duncan at that time...and we still did not see the fight... Prime Robert has feats and writer/character quotes to make him inferior to no one, superior than Dayne or Selmy he might not be but inferior he surely isn´t imo "Prime" Robert is full of hot air, only his best friend and himself put him on any kind of pedestal. He was big and strong, not very skilled, but everyone kisses the king's ass. That description matches many characters that I wouldn't classify as elite in any way. Overaggrandized, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Bloody Sword Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 11 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: My problem is that it's not objective, it's based on personal judgment on a lot of these. Nothing about this could ever be objective, only perpetually subjectively opinionated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said: Nothing about this could ever be objective, only perpetually subjectively opinionated. Not necessarily. One could do a statistical analysis based solely on the data provided in the text. A sort of ladder system, ranking fighters against each other by how they performed in battles described in the text. You wouldn't be able to compare every fighter to every other fighter, but you could make an objective analysis that would be useful once people put their own subjective opinions into it - if you think A is a better fighter than B, and B beat C, who beat D, then you know A is better than C and D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Bloody Sword Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 27 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: Not necessarily. One could do a statistical analysis based solely on the data provided in the text. A sort of ladder system, ranking fighters against each other by how they performed in battles described in the text. You wouldn't be able to compare every fighter to every other fighter, but you could make an objective analysis that would be useful once people put their own subjective opinions into it - if you think A is a better fighter than B, and B beat C, who beat D, then you know A is better than C and D. There's not enough in text info offered to even begin with. It's not like we're talking historical heavyweight boxing champs that have actual concrete records and opponents lists, title defenses, KO's, etc. We're given descriptive language from the author through the opinions of characters on which we then form our opinions. Opinions are nothing if not subjective. Opinions of opinions even worse. Youre also assuming that people's opinions are even valid or correct or useful. This is almost like judging art, are any opinions really wrong? Not if that is how that person perceived it. But that does not make it correct or a good point of reference, it just makes it their opinion. My opinions do not agree with hardly anything posted above. Does that make me wrong? Or is everybody else wrong? Who's to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 5 hours ago, Kenton Stark said: Good point about Lyonel. But I think it goes back to the SSM about Selmy and Arthur being the best. Based on that, I feel Prime Robert is just a shade under their level. But that just MHO and I enjoy well thought out intelligent counter points. That´s a normal mistake some folks make, grrm was asked who would win between those two in a duel in their primes, there wasn´t any mention of them being the 2 best... (they ARE top 6 ever though imo, along with Bob, Jaime,Daemon and the Dragonknight)... the order of those is the margin of selmy equation Like i would ask a basketball coach who´s the best, kobe or lebron? Jordan is still the GOAT 4 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said: "Prime" Robert is full of hot air, only his best friend and himself put him on any kind of pedestal. He was big and strong, not very skilled, but everyone kisses the king's ass. That description matches many characters that I wouldn't classify as elite in any way. Overaggrandized, IMO. BBS, you should really read Robert´s book feats (wich clearly outnumbers most), his physical and equipment advantages in armoured combat and his description by GRRM on his own site... In his youth Robert Baratheon was a paragon of a man, stronger and larger than most others on the battlefield. His chosen weapon was a war hammer of such immense size his friend Ned Stark could not wield it. The hammer was forged by Donal Noye while he was still the smith at Storm’s End, and Robert’s prowess with it was legendary. In tournaments he was never much for jousting, preferring a melee where he could bludgeon his opponents senseless. georgerrmartin.com Again Ned FOUGHT Dayne and after that he still called Robert a peerless warrior while calling Dayne the best knight... he idolized both, no bias there, if there was he would say Robert was the best knight also, since he was one aswell, but other values like chivalry and honour count as knightly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Bloody Sword Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 55 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: That´s a normal mistake some folks make, grrm was asked who would win between those two in a duel in their primes, there wasn´t any mention of them being the 2 best... (they ARE top 6 ever though imo, along with Bob, Jaime,Daemon and the Dragonknight)... the order of those is the margin of selmy equation Like i would ask a basketball coach who´s the best, kobe or lebron? Jordan is still the GOAT BBS, you should really read Robert´s book feats (wich clearly outnumbers most), his physical and equipment advantages in armoured combat and his description by GRRM on his own site... In his youth Robert Baratheon was a paragon of a man, stronger and larger than most others on the battlefield. His chosen weapon was a war hammer of such immense size his friend Ned Stark could not wield it. The hammer was forged by Donal Noye while he was still the smith at Storm’s End, and Robert’s prowess with it was legendary. In tournaments he was never much for jousting, preferring a melee where he could bludgeon his opponents senseless. georgerrmartin.com Again Ned FOUGHT Dayne and after that he still called Robert a peerless warrior while calling Dayne the best knight... he idolized both, no bias there, if there was he would say Robert was the best knight also, since he was one aswell, but other values like chivalry and honour count as knightly If that's truly the case, which Tournament's melees did he in fact win? A truly peerless paragon of men must surely have been damn near undefeated and of great renown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisandre's White Pubes Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said: There's not enough in text info offered to even begin with. It's not like we're talking historical heavyweight boxing champs that have actual concrete records and opponents lists, title defenses, KO's, etc. We're given descriptive language from the author through the opinions of characters on which we then form our opinions. Opinions are nothing if not subjective. Opinions of opinions even worse. Youre also assuming that people's opinions are even valid or correct or useful. This is almost like judging art, are any opinions really wrong? Not if that is how that person perceived it. But that does not make it correct or a good point of reference, it just makes it their opinion. My opinions do not agree with hardly anything posted above. Does that make me wrong? Or is everybody else wrong? Who's to say? I'm just saying the thread title is inaccurate because it's not objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Bloody Sword Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 17 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said: I'm just saying the thread title is inaccurate because it's not objective. I'm just saying this is an impossible topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 4 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said: There's not enough in text info offered to even begin with. It's not like we're talking historical heavyweight boxing champs that have actual concrete records and opponents lists, title defenses, KO's, etc. Even that wouldn't be enough. Frazier beat Ali, but lost to Foreman. Foreman then lost to Ali. Ali then beat Frazier twice running but lost to Norton. And so on and so on. And this is in a sport with well established conditions and rules ruling out variables like weapons, terrain, weather, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Bloody Sword Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said: Even that wouldn't be enough. Frazier beat Ali, but lost to Foreman. Foreman then lost to Ali. Ali then beat Frazier twice running but lost to Norton. And so on and so on. And this is in a sport with well established conditions and rules ruling out variables like weapons, terrain, weather, etc. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Nobody in the whole ASOIAF has been recorded fighting as many battles in the front line as Robert. Since he is the most tested and undefeated warrior he should be ranked first. I dont care how awsome Dayne or Jaime might be. They just dont have a record. Its like any sports with statics. Robert has the best. And always fighting in the front against the enemy champions. Gulftown. Sumerhall 1 Sumerhall 2 SUMERHALL 3 Ashford (not killed. Mananges to retreat not as dumb Jaime) Bells Trident Pyke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoren "The Wanderly Crow" Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Excellent Thread! There must be a massive gap in the market for a GOT playstation / xbox game..with a story mode for main characters and a combat mode where 2 players can fight each other with there favorite characters! The only point i would make Kenton is if this game was made, the total overall ranking of a character would have to be broke down (10 categories ranked out of 10 - Swordplay: 8, jousting: 6 etc..). I'm sure you were thinking something similar. Would love to see it and would buy it immediately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Stark Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Yoren "The Wanderly Crow" said: Excellent Thread! There must be a massive gap in the market for a GOT playstation / xbox game..with a story mode for main characters and a combat mode where 2 players can fight each other with there favorite characters! The only point i would make Kenton is if this game was made, the total overall ranking of a character would have to be broke down (10 categories ranked out of 10 - Swordplay: 8, jousting: 6 etc..). I'm sure you were thinking something similar. Would love to see it and would buy it immediately Thank you. I agree with you. The only person that could give accurate rankings would be GRRM himself. I was just trying to stimulate some conversation about the subject, not confirm that my rankings of thought process was the most accurate. Just for discussion shake, which categories would you use to rank the fighters? Maybe, Jousting, Sword fighting, hand to hand close combat, strategy and tactics, endurance, speed, strength, heavy striking weapons, archery, use of environment, defense etc...I feel another topic coming on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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