Can you answer these questions about TOJ?

[OwloftheRainwood]

25 minutes ago, sciteacher said:

Edric Dayne says: "Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

Remember Edric was telling Arya about things that happened before he was born. Edric was born 287; Jon was born in 282-283. Edric (Ned) was talking to Ayra in about 301. So by then, Wylla would have been with the Daynes for 'years and years, since before Edric was born'.  Now could Wylla have been employed by the Daynes before Jon was born? ~ She could have, but nowhere are we told specifically that she was.

We don't really have another alternative. There is nothing in the text to suggest Wylla served anywhere else, outside the context of nursing Jon. I don't see why GRRM would have to explicitly state she was a servant at Starfall before Jon is born. There is enough evidence ("years and years") to grant that she has been a servant at Starfall since before Jon.

[Jak Scaletongue]

10 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I'm not going to engage you on blood anymore, I hope we can agree to disagree. Because you're a woman does not give you a monopoly on truth relating to the bloody scene in TOJ, just like being a man doesn't give men a monopoly on truth re father-son relationships in the series. It's grossly unfair to say that someone's gender somehow makes an interpretation better or worse. That's all I'll say about it.

Re Edric/Wylla. I'm not sure what you're saying. She wasn't a servant at Starfall during RR but was for Edric? She was a servant at Starfall. End of story. The poster I quoted indicated that we don't know that contrary to facts in the text, I was pointing out their inaccuracy. Edric calls Jon a milkbrother.

Not a monopoly, no.  Just 19 years experience with blood coming out of a vagina and one experience giving birth.  You don't think women might have a bit more knowledge and experience with childbirth, blood and vaginas then men?  I certainly don't think I understand penises better than men.  Everything I know about penises comes from second-hand experience.  Everything you know about childbirth, periods and vaginas comes from second-hand experience.  Who has more knowledge?  First-hand experiences or second-hand experiences? But whatever, it's not worth it.

As for Edric/Wylla - I was just asking a question.  Hence the question mark at the end.  All Edric said was that Wylla was a servant at Starfall before he was born.  That doesn't rule out a trip to Winterfell for Wylla, to nurse Jon.  Whether they just *borrowed* her to get Jon to Winterfell where Ned could find a more permanent nurse, whether she nursed him for a few days at Starfall and never saw him again, or whether she stayed at Winterfell until Jon was weaned isn't answered.  There's a large enough gap between Jon and Edric that any of the above possibilities are likely.  I'm not stating anything, I was asking questions.  Was she a servant of Starfall during RR? Or was she hired after RR?  Has she ever left Starfall? 

[sciteacher]

33 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Birth blood would smell like period blood - they are both coming from the same place...not like a nose-bleed.

You don't *think* women produce a strong metallic blood-odour?  As a woman, who actually bleeds once a month, I disagree.  I don't have to guess - from *my* personal experience, it smells like blood.  Metallic, coppery, etc.  There's an added "vagina and sweat" smell as well, but it's still a very "coppery" scent.  I've already said "mileage may vary" depending on how heavy a woman's period is, and I've made clear it's my *own* personal experience.  But you have no personal experience - except nosebleeds, which smell nothing like childbirth or periods.  Childbirth would have that same "vagina and sweat" smell mixed in with the metallic, as well.  I'm not disagreeing with the text - I agree the room smelled of blood.  What I've been disagreeing with is the amount of blood needed to make the room smell like blood.  In a guard tower with arrow slits for windows in a hot environment, I don't think she needs to be bleeding heavily.  And depending which way the wind is blowing, the dead KG outside could be contributing to the smell!

Agree. The bleeding that happens after childbirth (even a normal or easy birth) is called lochia. It's made of blood, tissue from the lining of the uterus, and bacteria. It does have a strong smell of copper and iron and a little 'smell of infection' as well (bacteria stink!).

33 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

But Edric Dayne is a good 5 or more years younger than Jon, right?  So Wylla could have gone to Winterfell, nursed Jon, been sent back to Starfall and was a servant at Starfall when she nursed Edric.  Edric didn't actually tell us that Wylla was a servant of Starfall *before* she nursed Jon, just that she was a servant of Starfall when she nursed Edric, right?

That reminds me of something. Traditionally, people who call themselves milkbrothers were nursed at the same time by one woman, if even just for a few weeks of overlap. (Otherwise, the siblings of every woman who nurses her own children are milksiblings).So Mance's son and Gilly's baby are true milkbrothers. It's a little odd for Edric Dayne to claim to be Jon's milkbrother. Of course, this is George's world, so he can make every single child Old Nan or Wylla or any other woman ever nursed milk brothers if he wants.

[OwloftheRainwood]

29 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Not a monopoly, no.  Just 19 years experience with blood coming out of a vagina and one experience giving birth.  You don't think women might have a bit more knowledge and experience with childbirth, blood and vaginas then men?  I certainly don't think I understand penises better than men.  Everything I know about penises comes from second-hand experience.  Everything you know about childbirth, periods and vaginas comes from second-hand experience.  Who has more knowledge?  First-hand experiences or second-hand experiences? But whatever, it's not worth it.

As for Edric/Wylla - I was just asking a question.  Hence the question mark at the end.  All Edric said was that Wylla was a servant at Starfall before he was born.  That doesn't rule out a trip to Winterfell for Wylla, to nurse Jon.  Whether they just *borrowed* her to get Jon to Winterfell where Ned could find a more permanent nurse, whether she nursed him for a few days at Starfall and never saw him again, or whether she stayed at Winterfell until Jon was weaned isn't answered.  There's a large enough gap between Jon and Edric that any of the above possibilities are likely.  I'm not stating anything, I was asking questions.  Was she a servant of Starfall during RR? Or was she hired after RR?  Has she ever left Starfall? 

As I said, I'm not engaging your gendered arguments. Such arguments are partly why feminism is on the ropes despite having truth and equality on its side. When you make gendered arguments like you're doing, you discredit feminism and slip into misandry, which is not feminism. Please cite the text instead of identity politics.

Re Edric/Wylla. Your question doesn't make sense, because Edric tells us Wylla was a servant at Starfall, "years and years" before he was born this includes Robert's Rebellion. She went to Winterfell and nursed Jon for an undetermined amount of time and returned to Starfall where she nursed Edric. I'm not sure why this is so complicated for you and sciteacher when its right there in the text.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. TOJ is a watch tower made of stone. Why did three KG stand in front of tower to openly meet ned, in stead of using the tower as a shelter and defense? (Except GRRM wanted them to have an epic talk) ~Because they couldn't barricade the Tower.

2. Jon was a couple of months old by then. ~How could you possibly know that? "Bed of blood" means childbirth which means, iirc, just two weeks after the birth.

3. What happened to the servants in TOJ? There must be a few of them to cook and clean. ~One servant was enough. Which most likely was Wylla.

4. Lyanna is sick, but she can talk. KG fought with ned, either ned was killed( actually he was almost killed), or KG were killed. Why did not she stop them from killing each other? So she is ok with that KG tried to kill ned? I think she had power over KG since she is supposed to be rhaegar's lover/wife/crown princess/mother of king/princess regent of king jon targaryen. Even she is nothing but a mistress, she can still threaten KG by saying: if you fight with him, I will kill myself! Then they will agree because rhaegar asked them to guard her. ~Most likely she was either unconscious, she didn't knew what was going on or she had no power over the KG. The KG follow only the King and since the King was a Targ and Ned a rebel, Ned was the enemy.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

18 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Not a monopoly, no.  Just 19 years experience with blood coming out of a vagina and one experience giving birth.  You don't think women might have a bit more knowledge and experience with childbirth, blood and vaginas then men?  I certainly don't think I understand penises better than men.  Everything I know about penises comes from second-hand experience.  Everything you know about childbirth, periods and vaginas comes from second-hand experience.  Who has more knowledge?  First-hand experiences or second-hand experiences? But whatever, it's not worth it.

As for Edric/Wylla - I was just asking a question.  Hence the question mark at the end.  All Edric said was that Wylla was a servant at Starfall before he was born.  That doesn't rule out a trip to Winterfell for Wylla, to nurse Jon.  Whether they just *borrowed* her to get Jon to Winterfell where Ned could find a more permanent nurse, whether she nursed him for a few days at Starfall and never saw him again, or whether she stayed at Winterfell until Jon was weaned isn't answered.  There's a large enough gap between Jon and Edric that any of the above possibilities are likely.  I'm not stating anything, I was asking questions.  Was she a servant of Starfall during RR? Or was she hired after RR?  Has she ever left Starfall? 

I have to admit I was at first scared off by all the period blood talk... But I won't be quiet about this blatant sexism! Your personal experiences with your vagina give you no extra insite into a fictional fantasy story written by a man. Not to mention that I find it likely (though admittedly not guaranteed) that if you gave birth you had first hand experience with a penis...

But stepping away, as I'm sure you didn't intend to come across as being sexist and I'm not here exclusively to hate, the whole issue isn't even really relevant to the discussion here on the Tower of Joy, except that be it euphemistic or literal the "bed of blood" implies childbirth...

We know that if he men who fought only 2 "lived to ride away"... I think it can be debated wether this means only Howland and Ned lived, or they were the only ones to leave on horseback. After all "they" found Ned holding Lyanna... And there are a lot of references to Lord Dustin's Red Horse that Ned returned home. 

Personally I think the whole timeline makes a lot more sense if Lyanna ran away and met Rheagar because she was pregnant before the rebellion started... That's why Rheagar set up camp in rural Dorne and left Kingsgaurd there, and why Lyanna was out of the picture the whole time. Of course this means that the "bed of blood" was from a second pregnancy (although it helps explain Lewin's odd age comments about Jon, and the HotU vision)... The fact that Dany has weird memories about the house with the red door and Ser Willem (who not so coincidentally is described as having a limp) just help tie the whole thing together... 

But most would call me crackpot so...

 

[OwloftheRainwood]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have to admit I was at first scared off by all the period blood talk... But I won't be quiet about this blatant sexism! Your personal experiences with your vagina give you no extra insite into a fictional fantasy story written by a man. Not to mention that I find it likely (though admittedly not guaranteed) that if you gave birth you had first hand experience with a penis...

Thank you! I think she means well but Jak went all sexist on us.

[Jak Scaletongue]

4 minutes ago, sciteacher said:

Agree. The bleeding that happens after childbirth (even a normal or easy birth) is called lochia. It's made of blood, tissue from the lining of the uterus, and bacteria. It does have a strong smell of copper and iron and a little 'smell of infection' as well (bacteria stink!).

That reminds me of something. Traditionally, people who call themselves milkbrothers were nursed at the same time by one woman, if even just for a few weeks of overlap. (Otherwise, the siblings of every woman who nurses her own children are milksiblings).So Mance's son and Gilly's baby are true milkbrothers. It's a little odd for Edric Dayne to claim to be Jon's milkbrother. Of course, this is George's world, so he can make every single child Old Nan or Wylla or any other woman ever nursed milk brothers if he wants.

Edric might just have misunderstood the term "milkbrothers" when he learned about it. 

2 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

As I said, I'm not engaging your gendered arguments. Such arguments are partly why feminism is on the ropes despite having truth and equality on its side. When you make gendered arguments like you're doing, you discredit feminism and slip into misandry, which is not feminism.

Re Edric/Wylla. Your question doesn't make sense, because Edric tells us Wylla was a servant at Starfall, "years and years" before he was born this includes Robert's Rebellion. She went to Winterfell and nursed Jon for an undetermined amount of time and returned to Starfall where she nursed Edric. I'm not sure why this is so complicated for you and sciteacher when its right there in the text.

How is it misandry?  I know vaginas better than men because I have one.  You know penises better than women because you have one.  That's not misandry - that's logic.  This stance doesn't exclude women who may have different experiences with their vaginas - everyone is different.  But I'll take first-hand experience over second-hand.  That goes for vaginas OR penises.  Would you invalidate another man's opinion about a penis because you've had two different experiences?  But you'll try to invalidate my opinion on childbirth, vaginas and blood because your wife doesn't bleed as heavily as I do?   If we were talking about Theon, I'd be taking a man's word over my guesses.  Because men have more experience with penises.  Here, we're talking about childbirth - have you pushed a baby out of your vagina?  Who's opinion should I value more highly?  Someone who has never carried a child to term (man or woman), or someone who has actually pushed a baby out?  As you may have noticed, I've only discussed period blood, rather than childbirth blood, even after stating I've given birth - because I had a c-section, so I have no experience actually, physically pushing a baby out of my vagina.  I do have experience trying to *not push* while waiting for surgery, but I do not know what it feels like to have a baby come out of me through the vagina.  If someone on this thread who *has* pushed a baby out tells me I'm wrong, I will defer to her first-hand experience.  Just like if we were discussing Theon and his loss, I would defer to a man with a penis (or a man without one, if available).

 

Edric/Wylla - because children never exaggerate?   If he ever actually bothered to ask how long Wylla's been there, the answer was likely "years" - and the 8-10 y.o exaggerated.  It happens, often.  Arya exaggerates, Sansa exaggerates, Bran exaggerates....children exaggerate.  And we have no idea how long she nursed Jon - might have been just a few days while Ned was dropping off Dawn, maybe she just travelled there with Jon and Ned got a more permanent nurse when he arrived with Catelyn, maybe she stayed til he was weaned (IRL historically, that would be about 2-3 years - though the milk will come for as long as a child is breastfeeding, a la SweetRobin).  We don't *know* how long she nursed Jon, that is not stated in the text.  It's not even implied. 

[OwloftheRainwood]

6 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

How is it misandry?  I know vaginas better than men because I have one.  You know penises better than women because you have one.  That's not misandry - that's logic.  This stance doesn't exclude women who may have different experiences with their vaginas - everyone is different.  But I'll take first-hand experience over second-hand.  That goes for vaginas OR penises.  Would you invalidate another man's opinion about a penis because you've had two different experiences?  But you'll try to invalidate my opinion on childbirth, vaginas and blood because your wife doesn't bleed as heavily as I do?   If we were talking about Theon, I'd be taking a man's word over my guesses.  Because men have more experience with penises.  Here, we're talking about childbirth - have you pushed a baby out of your vagina?  Who's opinion should I value more highly?  Someone who has never carried a child to term (man or woman), or someone who has actually pushed a baby out?  As you may have noticed, I've only discussed period blood, rather than childbirth blood, even after stating I've given birth - because I had a c-section, so I have no experience actually, physically pushing a baby out of my vagina.  I do have experience trying to *not push* while waiting for surgery, but I do not know what it feels like to have a baby come out of me through the vagina.  If someone on this thread who *has* pushed a baby out tells me I'm wrong, I will defer to her first-hand experience.  Just like if we were discussing Theon and his loss, I would defer to a man with a penis (or a man without one, if available).

You're in a hole. Stop digging. Your comments were sexist, but unintentional, move on. Your lived experience is less relevant to a fictional story than the text itself.

7 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Edric/Wylla - because children never exaggerate?   If he ever actually bothered to ask how long Wylla's been there, the answer was likely "years" - and the 8-10 y.o exaggerated.  It happens, often.  Arya exaggerates, Sansa exaggerates, Bran exaggerates....children exaggerate.  And we have no idea how long she nursed Jon - might have been just a few days while Ned was dropping off Dawn, maybe she just travelled there with Jon and Ned got a more permanent nurse when he arrived with Catelyn, maybe she stayed til he was weaned (IRL historically, that would be about 2-3 years - though the milk will come for as long as a child is breastfeeding, a la SweetRobin).  We don't *know* how long she nursed Jon, that is not stated in the text.  It's not even implied.

Jak, you're factually wrong a lot, maybe re-read the text. Edric is not a child. He is 13-15 and has seen a good deal of battle so writing him off as an exaggerating child doesn't work. There is evidence to support what I'm saying, and not so much with your claims about Wylla. 

[Jak Scaletongue]

29 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have to admit I was at first scared off by all the period blood talk... But I won't be quiet about this blatant sexism! Your personal experiences with your vagina give you no extra insite into a fictional fantasy story written by a man. Not to mention that I find it likely (though admittedly not guaranteed) that if you gave birth you had first hand experience with a penis...

 

Second-hand experience.  I do not possess said penis, even if it's inside me.  I don't know what it's like to have a penis.  Therefore I do NOT have first-hand experience with said penis.  Just like Owl doesn't have first-hand experience with a vagina.  Second-hand experience, sure. First-hand, no.

9 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

You're in a hole. Stop digging. Your comments were sexist, but unintentional, move on. Your lived experience is less relevant to a fictional story than the text itself.

Jak, you're factually wrong a lot, maybe re-read the text. Edric is not a child. He is 13-15 and has seen a good deal of battle so writing him off as an exaggerating child doesn't work. There is evidence to support what I'm saying, and not so much with your claims about Wylla. 

Yes, I thought he was younger than Arya.  Or at least the same age.  His conversation with her gave me that impression.  Not to mention keeping characters straight when I'm reading a different series right now.  But exaggeration can still apply.  Teenagers exaggerate too, not as drastically as children, I'll give you that.  Hell, adults exaggerate regularly, if not drastically.

And I'm not *claiming* anything - I'm just saying that ALL the info we have is from a single source who wasn't even born at the time we're discussing.  I offered multiple options that possibly occurred.  None of which I'm *claiming* is correct.  I've been ASKING.

Was she at Starfall during RR?  Or could Rhaegar/whoever have hired a random nursing small folk who would keep their secret?  Could Ned have gotten her the "job" at Starfall after finding them at ToJ?

Did she travel to Winterfell with Jon?  Or did she just nurse him while Ned was dropping off Dawn?

IF she went to Winterfell, how long might she have stayed?  Til Jon was weaned? Or just until Ned found a different nurse?

I'm sure I had others, but last time I moved back a page to look, I lost my comments, so this will have to do for now.  All I'm "claiming" is that there are unanswered questions. 

 

 

 

[OwloftheRainwood]

20 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

1 hour ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

As I said, I'm not engaging your gendered arguments. Such arguments are partly why feminism is on the ropes despite having truth and equality on its side. When you make gendered arguments like you're doing, you discredit feminism and slip into misandry, which is not feminism. Please cite the text instead of identity politics.

Re Edric/Wylla. Your question doesn't make sense, because Edric tells us Wylla was a servant at Starfall, "years and years" before he was born this includes Robert's Rebellion. She went to Winterfell and nursed Jon for an undetermined amount of time and returned to Starfall where she nursed Edric. I'm not sure why this is so complicated for you and sciteacher when its right there in the text.

Second-hand experience.  I do not possess said penis, even if it's inside me.  I don't know what it's like to have a penis.  Therefore I do NOT have first-hand experience with said penis.  Just like Owl doesn't have first-hand experience with a vagina.  Second-hand experience, sure. First-hand, no.

Yes, I thought he was younger than Arya.  Or at least the same age.  His conversation with her gave me that impression.  Not to mention keeping characters straight when I'm reading a different series right now.  But exaggeration can still apply.  Teenagers exaggerate too, not as drastically as children, I'll give you that.  Hell, adults exaggerate regularly, if not drastically.

And I'm not *claiming* anything - I'm just saying that ALL the info we have is from a single source who wasn't even born at the time we're discussing.  I offered multiple options that possibly occurred.  None of which I'm *claiming* is correct.  I've been ASKING.

Was she at Starfall during RR?  Or could Rhaegar/whoever have hired a random nursing small folk who would keep their secret?  Could Ned have gotten her the "job" at Starfall after finding them at ToJ?

Did she travel to Winterfell with Jon?  Or did she just nurse him while Ned was dropping off Dawn?

IF she went to Winterfell, how long might she have stayed?  Til Jon was weaned? Or just until Ned found a different nurse?

I'm sure I had others, but last time I moved back a page to look, I lost my comments, so this will have to do for now.  All I'm "claiming" is that there are unanswered questions. 

 

 

 

LOL now you're just asking questions...Bologna, you were making assertions that you couldn't back up (Edric's character, when he was born, sexist period comments, etc) and now you're backpedaling. Of course there are unanswered questions, nobody denies that and it was the whole point of the thread!! I already answered your questions to the best of my ability, given the lack of information.

[Jak Scaletongue]

1 hour ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

LOL now you're just asking questions...Bologna, you were making assertions that you couldn't back up (Edric's character, when he was born, sexist period comments, etc) and now you're backpedaling. Of course there are unanswered questions, nobody denies that and it was the whole point of the thread!! I already answered your questions to the best of my ability, given the lack of information.

Edrics' character - I admitted I mis-remembered his age.  It was even posed AS A QUESTION.  Because I wasn't sure.  Yes, I did mistake him for the same age as Arya, and corrected myself as well.  No assertion - a question.  And I still stand by my response that people (children, teens and adults) exaggerate.  Because we do. Regularly.

3 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

But Edric Dayne is a good 5 or more years younger than Jon, right?  So Wylla could have gone to Winterfell, nursed Jon, been sent back to Starfall and was a servant at Starfall when she nursed Edric.  Edric didn't actually tell us that Wylla was a servant of Starfall *before* she nursed Jon, just that she was a servant of Starfall when she nursed Edric, right?

See, no backpedalling - it was posed as a question 3 hours ago.  I was mistaken, and already admitted as much.  WTF else do can I do?

 

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Yes, I thought he was younger than Arya.  Or at least the same age.  His conversation with her gave me that impression.

And I've made no *claims* about Wylla - I've offered alternative scenarios, none of which I purported to be the "right" one.  The whole point of the thread, as you point out, is about unanswered questions about the Tower of Joy.  Am I not allowed to offer other unanswered questions that relate to the ToJ?  Isn't that the point of the thread? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

How it ended up to "who knows how reproductive system work"? Yes women tend to know better about the female reproductive system and men about reproductive system. But a male doctor could know better about female reproductive system than a woman even if he hasn't personal experiense.

[Jak Scaletongue]

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How it ended up to "who knows how reproductive system work"? Yes women tend to know better about the female reproductive system and men about reproductive system. But a male doctor could know better about female reproductive system than a woman even if he hasn't personal experiense.

If Owl is a trained gynecologist/obstetrician then his bedside manner sucks. 

But yes, trained professionals are always preferable to laypeople.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

If Owl is a trained gynecologist/obstetrician then his bedside manner sucks. 

What I am trying to say is that surely a man knows much better than me how a kick to groin feels, when I know better how menstrual pain feels. However I see no reason why people should attack each other because of that. 

[Jak Scaletongue]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What I am trying to say is that surely a man knows much better than me how a kick to groin feels, when I know better how menstrual pain feels. However I see no reason why people should attack each other because of that. 

That was basically the point I was trying to make.  Men know more about their genitals and what they do, and women know more about our genitals and what they do. 

I take offence at a man telling me I'm wrong about my period.  Or, as the argument started, how "bloody" my room smells while on said period.  His wife doesn't have the same experience - lucky her.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

If Owl is a trained gynecologist/obstetrician then his bedside manner sucks. 

But yes, trained professionals are always preferable to laypeople.

No again you miss the point...

We are discussing a fictional event in a fantasy book... The fact that you are a woman or I work in a hospital have literally no bearing on what GRRM intended for the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's bed of blood. The implication that your gender might give you some more accurate insight on this topic is just nonsensical sexism

[Jak Scaletongue]

On 2016-02-10 at 10:54 AM, Jak Scaletongue said:

And "bloody bed" and "bed of blood" are euphemisms for childbirth.  Someone's already pointed it out here, and pulled the quotes.  It's on the first page here.  That's not to say there wasn't *any* blood in the room - but it is also a euphemism, used frequently in the books, even in a context where the mother doesn't die (there is blood involved even in a successful birth for mother and baby).  Basically, don't forget the euphemism even *when/if* the term "bloody bed" is meant to be literal.  Hell, if the wind was blowing the right direction, it might just smell bloody because of all the dead people outside and Ned's use of "bloody bed'" is a euphemism and not a literal bed covered in blood.  And unless she's hemorrhaging the bed won't be *covered* in blood - it would be more like waking up to a heavy period. Some bleeding while giving birth is normal, having a bed covered in blood would be hemorrhaging - and if she's hemorrhaging, she's not going to live long enough to get a fever!  She'd be hard-pressed to live through the fight if she's hemorrhaging.  In that vein, waking up to a heavy period *can* make the room smell like blood, too - so even a little bit of blood can still account for the smell Ned notes. 

This was my very first comment about the whole smell thing.  I was just trying to point out, from personal experience, there does NOT need to be A LOT of blood to make a room smell bloody.  That was my entire point - a little bit of blood, a similar amount to a night without a pad, does make *my* room smell bloody. I didn't even say there wasn't *any* blood - of course there is, childbirth IS a bloody mess, literally.  But there does not need to be A LOT of it.  Especially, as I noted in a later comment, in the hot environment and arrow slits for windows. 

(In later comments I agreed that "mileage may vary" - I wasn't trying to get into an argument with anyone - just pointing out that a little bit of blood can make a room smell bloody.  I *know* that some women aren't as heavy bleeders, and some women are heavier than me.)

Regardless of the damn argument - I still stand by my first post.  There does not need to be a LOT of blood to make a room smell of blood. There *might* be a lot of blood, but it's not a *must have* in order to make the room smell like it.

Is the fact that I know, from personal experience, that a little bit of blood can make a room smell bloody sexist?  Really?  I offered a personal experience (and I know I'm not the first person to ever do that here) in order to help shed light on the discussion.  I bleed heavily, my room smells like blood so I tried to point out that you do NOT need a lot of blood to have the room smell.  And then was told, by a man, that his wife's period doesn't make his room smell so I must be wrong.  THAT is sexist AND pisses me off.

But fuck it.

[finger]

Oh, no, obstetrics 101 again. Painful. Please move on.

You've just skipped one comment: Lyanna was NOT in ToJ

ToJ was a watchtower to keep the pass to Dorne. Thaegar named it so probably because he thought they'd be safe in Dorne, so when he arrived there he had escaped and whatever danger he might fear, it couldn't reach them in Dorne.

This was a place for an ambush, not for giving birth. There's no information about where R+L might have lived together, some hint point to New Hermitage, but it's to feeble to mention. But when the hour of birthing was approaching, the obvious place for Lyanna to be was Dayne's home, Starfall. Specially if the KG had a mission. And, what was their mission? An ambush, as I've said. They were keeping the pas, to prevent anyone crossing and, eventually, to let their secret die with them. They couldn't stay in the tower, because Ned just had passed by, they were blocking the road. Three against seven and only two men went away alive.

The first book is filled with foretelling. For instance, the bloodriders: they are three and, when their khal (Rhaegar) dies, they die with him. They only survive their khal for one last service. Another one: Jaime tells his men to kill Ned's (3)men but spare him. Not the same situation, but the command is given for some literary reason. Or, out of the books, Dunk's trial of seven: the KG don't harm the royals, and Ned was Lyanna's brother and Jon's uncle. The three KG were at the ToJ to kill Ned's company, spare him, and die on purpose in the intent. Always three and seven.

Ned had to go to Starfall alone. But for some unknown reason they also spared HR. And he did go to Starfall to fetch Dawn. Btw, after tearing down a tower, building eight cairns, two people coming out of a fight (and a suckling just born!?)

Wylla was Jon's wetnurse, that's a fact. And some time after, Edrik's, in Starfall. When Lyanna died, there were other people (they) with Ned and her. Take our your own conclusions. Of course, it's nowhere stated that Jon was born there, but it's kinda common sensical

 

[LadyoftheNorth72]

The way the term milk brothers is used in the books and also the Wiki, it refers to all the infants nursed by a particular woman. It wouldn't make sense for it to be a more proprietary term, since a woman could theoretically (if she's insane) go along nursing dozens of babies for years. - your body will usually continue to produce milk based on the demand for it. And, any infant could have a dozen wet nurses before being weaned.

I feel it's a given that Wylla did not accompany Jon and Ned home to Winterfell, certainly not within Cat's sight or to stay, given the rumors. I'm quite sure Cat was not about to give her noble milk to a bastard infant. A household as large as Winterfell with a town on its front porch would likely have had a few nursing mothers on hand. 

As far as Edric Dayne's claims about Wylla being Jon's mother, that is surely the most likely story given at Starfall for Jon's appearance and stay there, and he is simply repeating what he believes to be true? After all, he's only 12 when he tells Arya this. Wylla may have already been faking a pregnancy in preparation for faking having a newborn before Jon was actually born.