Can you answer these questions about TOJ?

[corbon]

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

1. TOJ is a watch tower made of stone.

Correction. Its a watchtower that has stones in its construction. It may or may not be all stone. It may or may not be defensible - its first purpose as a watchtower is to watch, not to defend.
Incidentally, can anyone find the source for it being a watchtower? Its locked in my head too as an 'abandoned watchtower', and I usually require a very reputable source to lock something like that in, but I can never find out where this comes from...

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

Why did three KG stand in front of tower to openly meet ned, in stead of using the tower as a shelter and defense? (Except GRRM wanted them to have an epic talk) 

Many possible reasons.
For me, the most likely one is that they have been hiding there and have been found. Their chief defence has been secrecy, not defensibility. No matter how strong they are defensively they cannot create a strategic win for themselves by holing up now that their location is known. However, there is a small chance that they can create a strategic win for themselves by killing Ned's entire party - there is a chance there, given Ned's small and discrete party size, that Ned is also being discrete as to the location and that few if any people know where he is, and that any who do are far enough away that it will take considerable time to ascertain the success or failure of Ned's party and send another. So if they win thoroughly enough here, they might buy themselves enough time to by in a situation where they can travel more safely vis a vis baby or mother. To do that they need to draw Ned and all his men in and commit them, not sit back on the defense in a strong position where Ned's men must come piecemeal and will have reserves or left over far enough away to escape.

People think too tactically, but tactics are informed by strategy, and in the strategic sense, the only 'win' possible for the Kg once Ned and his men turn up is to kill (or take prisoner) them all, no survivors. Which they can't do by holing up and ceding all initiative to Ned.
It might not be great odds/chances, but its the best option they have. And if it were not for HR, it might have succeeded too.

Then there is the unknown defensibility of the tower, the way the location is set out, the potential risk to inhabitants if they fight inside, all sorts of things that we just don't know.
One thing I do know is that these guys are the elite of the elite and very experienced. They understand the physical, cultural, political, social and emotional factors involved here vastly better than any of us and they are in no way greenhorns. Questioning the suitability of their choices needs to be done very very carefully given the vast pool of ignorance we swim in here...

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

2. Jon was a couple of months old by then.

We don't know how old he was. The best estimates are around a week to 10 days, not a couple of months.

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

He can be sent to somewhere else since Ned did so soon after.  Dany also can be carried away immediately after birth. So this is not a big problem. I understand lyanna is sick so she can not travel, so why did not KG send baby jon with wet nurse to somewhere else like starfall or dragonstone so that they do not need to fight with ned until death?

Why is somewhere else considered safer? How do they know Ned is coming? Why wouldn't Ned find them at Starfall or Dragonstone? How do they get to Starfall or Dragonstone safely with a baby and a dying mother? Could they travel inconito, those three KG? With a baby? Maybe with the dying Lyanna also. So they just abandon the mother then? Who tells their future king they did that and why?

Right now, they are in an apparently secure location (to the best of their knowledge) with a newborn and a dying mother. Their risk of discovery increases dramatically if they travel, and there aren't all that many 'safe' places to travel to anyway. Its entirely possible that their best solution at that point is to wait for Lyanna to die or recover and hope their secrecy holds. Sending the baby somewhere else is pure hindsight and makes no logical sense based on what they know then.

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

Jon is much safer without lyanna since the rebellion is only looking for lyanna. And rebellion people would certainly not harm lyanna. 

Thats right, the baby is safer without his mama. The baby is safer travelling, with someone recognisable, or someone out of their control, or their own forces split up.
Safer - I do not think it means what you think it means.

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

3. What happened to the servants in TOJ? There must be a few of them to cook and clean. They all know Jon's parentage. .. Were they all killed by ned? 

There need not have been many. The KG should be well capable to look after themselves as if on campaign or mission so its only a very small number required, maybe as few as one (perhaps Wylla), maybe 2-3.

I very much doubt Ned would have killed them. Its not his way.
If there were others, they were no doubt originally selected for loyalty and discretion. They probably like Wylla, hold lifelong posts at somewhere like Starfall and keep their mouths shut, knowing the consequences.
Supposedly someone always talks. Thats true and not true at the same time. Secrets can be kept, by small numbers of people. Especially when people don't realise there is a secret there to be ferreted out.

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

4. Lyanna is sick, but she can talk.

 A rally before the end. She has a fever and is dying, manages to extract promises from Ned before she dies. That does not mean she could talk freely or at length.

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

KG fought with ned, either ned was killed( actually he was almost killed), or KG were killed. Why did not she stop them from killing each other?

Did you miss the part where she's dying? Weak unto death with a fever? In a bed of blood? Just because she can talk a  little at the end does not mean she can run around giving orders to people who are not hers to order around anyway.

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

So she is ok with that KG tried to kill ned?

Thats not a logical extrapolation. There clearly wasn't anything she could have done about it. Its somewhat dubious that she was even much aware of what was happening outside her room.

On 10/02/2016 at 10:31 AM, purple-eyes said:

I think she had power over KG since she is supposed to be rhaegar's lover/wife/crown princess/mother of king/princess regent of king jon targaryen. Even she is nothing but a mistress, she can still threaten KG by saying: if you fight with him, I will kill myself! Then they will agree because rhaegar asked them to guard her.

Thats... never mind.

On 10/02/2016 at 2:42 AM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

1. They were protecting the secrets inside the tower.  The point being, they had to kill Ned and the men with him, not simply defend themselves.  If they turtled up Ned might send for Robert and Jon would be killed.  

Very well said.

 

12 hours ago, sciteacher said:

There is just so much unknown. We need to apply "common sense" to some of our thinking until we know more.

And we also need to be careful about that. What some think of as 'sense' often isn't  - a direct example being how most people think it would be 'sensible' for the KG to use the tower defensively to improve their tactical odd, but an examination of the situation shows that that is strategic suicide. What appears to be 'sense' from one angle is gross stupidity from another.

12 hours ago, sciteacher said:

For instance, after the de facto end of the war, Ned engaged in some mop-up work. No matter where Ned found Lyanna, I don't see that it means we need to imagine that Ned trotted around the south carting a baby, wetnurse, and Howland Reed along with him. Most likely he sent them to Winterfell, perhaps by ship. They were certainly settled in there when Catelyn arrived with Robb and her retinue.

Maybe (see the caution above). But where does he find that ship? - not at ToJ in the Princes Pass obviously... So there has to be some 'carting around' even if he follows your 'sense'.
And why does Starfall claim Wylla is Jon's mother (even though they also claim Ned loved Ashara). Did perhaps Ned 'cart' Wylla-the wetnurse and baby Jon to Starfall, where they saw her nursing Jon and made the assumption? Was HR there also? Did he leave them earlier or later or not at all? Does it really mater?

12 hours ago, sciteacher said:

I know many of us think Wylla came from Starfell, but that isn't explicitly stated. We do know Robert thought Jon's mother was named Wylla and Catelyn thought she was Ashara Dayne. If Wylla was rumored to be Jon's mother at Winterfell, there is no way Catelyn would have allowed her to stay there.

Winterfell rumours placed Ashara as the mother, not Wylla. Thats where Catelyn got her info and Ned shut them down after getting her source.

12 hours ago, sciteacher said:

Honoring your husband of not, that would have been too much for Cat. I think Wylla was the wetnurse, and when the Starks had no more need of her, they helped her gain employment with the Daynes. We do know she was in their household before Edric Dayne was born.

Indeed.

The notion that she 'came from' Starfall comes from the fact that she has to come from somewhere and has to be selected by some connection if she was indeed at ToJ (as seems to be most likely).
I prefer to think of it as 'was connected through Starfall' rather than 'came from'. If she was well known in Starfall before ToJ then it seems unlikely they could think she was the mother of Jon. OTOH if she was merely connected through Starfall, either coming from the locale but not the castle itself, or known to Arthur or Ashara (possibly being involved with Ashara's previous pregnancy and the secrets around that) then that could explain both her initial candidacy (both on grounds of locale/connections, and trustworthiness) and her later return to Starfall and employment there after her employment by Ned. Its still really just speculation though.

12 hours ago, sciteacher said:

I'm also surprised by the notion of the tower of joy being a tiny, crumbling stone hut. It was located on one of the major pathways in and out of a thriving kingdom. Maybe I've played too many RPG games in my lifetime, but guard towers are often significant features. Think about what it was built to do. If you're going to guard something like the Wide Way-Prince's Path, you'd need multiple guards. At a minimum, two for each watch. More likely you'd have additional guards to patrol, some to run messages and get supplies, etc. You'd have a food/supplies storage area. There would be sleeping quarters for all those men, a kitchen, an eating area which may have also served as a place to meet/drink/gamble/relax by a fire. The commander would have his own private sleeping quarters and office; he might even have a secretary who also had his own sleeping area. You'd also have to have room to store weapons and do minor repairs/maintenance... Even something like this could be dismantled by a man with horses. With a stone building, if you break the mortar in a few strategic places and the rest falls easily, much like stone walls fail if some of the bottom stones are removed, or tile walls.

The phrase (still can't find the source for that) is abandoned watchtower, not guard tower.

A watchtower does not necessarily have all those things you mention, though it may have several. Its in the Princes' Pass, between traditional casual enemies the Stormlands and Dhorne but the real defences are likely to be nearer to the ends of the pass, with watchtowers deeper in. So you can spot an enemy traversing the pass early enough to prepare properly at more suitable places to defend (or ambush).

But in general I agree. People think because Ned used some of the stones and because it is described 15 years later as a long-fallen tower, than Ned and Howland demolished it with their bare hands. The reality is that they had probably a dozen or more horses to help, Ned at least would be a trained military engineer in precisely the building and demolition of small towers and fortress like this, they may have used fire to help, or a few critical mortar-ed joints, or the tower may have already partially fallen - we can't tell if it was long fallen at the time of the dream or long fallen in the dream.

12 hours ago, sciteacher said:

I'd also add that IF the Dayne household knew all about Jon, that is a lot of people to keep a secret.

Or as few as Arthur and Ashara. And maybe their older brother, future Ned's father.

12 hours ago, sciteacher said:

What's the saying? Three people can keep a secret if two are dead. If all those people had known about Jon, there is no reason for Ned to keep it secret from Cat, especially many years later.

Arthur is dead. Ashara is maybe dead, definitely not around. Guess thats a secret kept then. Maybe.
And whether they know or not, whether Ned even knows they know or not, he still has exactly the same reason to keep the secret from Cat. Telling her because someone else maybe knows is exactly how not to keep a secret, and some secrets are to dangerous to share even with the ones you love.

 

10 hours ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Well, the text explicitly states that HR and Ned were able to pull the tower down by hand to make 8 cairns.

No it does not.
Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge
Pulled it down afterwards yes. By hand? not  necessarily. Was it already partly fallen? Can't tell. Did they do it by hand, or use horses, or uses fire or other methods? Can't tell.
Used its stones to build 8 cairns, yes. All its stones? Probably not. Was it mixed construction? We have no way of telling. How big was it? We can't tell - stones, not stones, a dozen horses, a trained military engineer....
'Bloody stones' seems to me to indicate stones that were largely already fallen and scattered at its base, otherwise a few that were low down and therefore the last and hardest to tear down. But even that is speculative, just trying to speculate using the actual text...

10 hours ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

This does not mean it was crumbling and small, but it was likely one or the other. I think a lot of people want to place Jon at Starfall so they exaggerate how crappy TOJ was to support that argument:

Indeed.

8 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

 I've been ASKING.

Was she at Starfall during RR?  Or could Rhaegar/whoever have hired a random nursing small folk who would keep their secret?  Could Ned have gotten her the "job" at Starfall after finding them at ToJ?

She may have been at Starfall during RR. However, that would make it quite difficult for people there to believe she was Jon's mother. They would know enough of her movements then to be suspicious of how she could have hooked up with Ned Stark at the time of conception (while Ned is fighting the war in the Riverlands).
So it seems likely that she wasn't at starfall during RR.
OTOH, do you really hire a 'random' for a secret nursing job? And would a 'random' keep such a secret through all the events afterwards, including the destruction of those who hired her? I find these ideas unlikely. So I suspect she was connected through Starfall, perhaps from the locale but not the castle, perhaps known to Arthur, perhaps known to Ashara (perhaps even previously hired by Ashara as an eventually un-needed wetnurse (maybe) or perhaps even nursing Ashara's daughter Allyria claimed by Ashara's mother, and already keeping that secret, maybe) - there are many possibilities. So I think she is trustworthy, and when Ned has finished her, Starfall is the place where she has the connections and is already trusted also.
Speculatively.

I do think its fairly clear from Starfall's belief that she is Jon's mother that she 'rode in' to Starfall with Ned, already nursing Jon. Not that Ned arrived with Jon and she was there already and was then hired as wetnurse, that makes no sense at all. 

8 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Did she travel to Winterfell with Jon?  Or did she just nurse him while Ned was dropping off Dawn?

There is lots of argument about whether she went to Winterfell or not. None of which is truly important in any way .
Personally I can see no good reason why Ned wouldn't take her on to Winterfell and several why he would - I've seen all the arguments the other way and found them all lacking, some very badly lacking. I don't see Ned sending Jon north without her, still clearly only a few weeks or a month or three old, as being consistent with Starfall's respect for Ned and believing she is the mother.

8 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

IF she went to Winterfell, how long might she have stayed?  Til Jon was weaned? Or just until Ned found a different nurse?

Why find a different nurse? She not the mother, neither she nor Ned are known to actually claim so (its inferred by other people, but if you look closely neither her nor Ned say she is), the gossip in Winterfell is directed at Ashara not Wylla. There is just no reason for her not to be there.
So IMO the most likely scenario is she went to Winterfell and stayed until Jon was weaned. At that point there was no reason for her to stay in Winterfell and potentially several to leave so she returns to Starfall with the blessing of Ned and the Daynes.

 

4 hours ago, finger said:

You've just skipped one comment: Lyanna was NOT in ToJ

The texts places her there both implicitly and explicitly. It does not give any clues to any other location.

4 hours ago, finger said:

ToJ was a watchtower to keep the pass to Dorne. Thaegar named it so probably because he thought they'd be safe in Dorne, so when he arrived there he had escaped and whatever danger he might fear, it couldn't reach them in Dorne.

Speculation without textual basis.

4 hours ago, finger said:

This was a place for an ambush, not for giving birth.

Speculation without textual basis.

4 hours ago, finger said:

There's no information about where R+L might have lived together, some hint point to New Hermitage,

There are no hints that point to High Hermitage. Or New Hermitage.

4 hours ago, finger said:

But when the hour of birthing was approaching, the obvious place for Lyanna to be was Dayne's home, Starfall.

One man's obvious is another man's gross stupidity.
Why put all of Starfall at risk.
How can you be sure someone in Starfall will not betray them to Aerys? Or even to the Rebels. How long can she stay there safely for her, and for the residents of Starfall, without word getting out? To either side? So how long before the birth does she travel there then? How do you judge that?

4 hours ago, finger said:

Specially if the KG had a mission. And, what was their mission? An ambush, as I've said. They were keeping the pas, to prevent anyone crossing and, eventually, to let their secret die with them.

Right, brilliant. Lets hold a pass from a watchtower with three men. After the war is over. When its not the only route between Dhorne and Stormlands. When the fighting is all further north anyway.

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 11/2/2016 at 11:45 PM, finger said:

You've just skipped one comment: Lyanna was NOT in ToJ

You seem awfully sure for something that was never stated in the text. How can you do it?

[finger]

16 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You seem awfully sure for something that was never stated in the text. How can you do it?

I can reword it: a previous comment, that has been skipped, says so.

If you're interested in the theory, you can read my post. Btw, the text doesn't state that Lyanna was in the ToJ, either.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, finger said:

I can reword it: a previous comment, that has been skipped, says so.

If you're interested in the theory, you can read my post. Btw, the text doesn't state that Lyanna was in the ToJ, either.

In the only text available Ned hears Lyanna screaming when he is at ToJ.

[finger]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

In the only text available Ned hears Lyanna screaming when he is at ToJ.

Not exactly. He's dreaming on the ToJ and someone (Poole?) wakes him up. He takes his voice for Lyanna's. IIRC, Grrm has stated that it was a fever dream and Ned was confused. And I agree it's the only text available which could locate Lyanna at ToJ. Imo, and others', it doesn't.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, finger said:

Not exactly. He's dreaming on the ToJ and someone (Poole?) wakes him up. He takes his voice for Lyanna's. IIRC, Grrm has stated that it was a fever dream and Ned was confused. And I agree it's the only text available which could locate Lyanna at ToJ. Imo, and others', it doesn't.

Look it that way; we have something from the text to connect Lyanna to ToJ when we have absolutely nothing from the text to connect her to any other place. So for me the text comes before anything else.

[finger]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Look it that way; we have something from the text to connect Lyanna to ToJ when we have absolutely nothing from the text to connect her to any other place. So for me the text comes before anything else.

For me, the most important detail connecting Lyanna to ToJ is its very name, but this doesn't mean that Lyanna passed the rest of her life at ToJ ever since she saw it for the first time.

Otoh, Jon is not connected to ToJ in any way, but he's to Starfall. It's positively stated that his wetnurse lived in Starfall. Besides, Ned was at ToJ (he tore it apart, indeed), then went to Starfall ad sent Jon to WF. This is also the text, there are five books and some ancillary info, no just one sentence telling of a feverish man recalling his sister.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, finger said:

For me, the most important detail connecting Lyanna to ToJ is its very name, but this doesn't mean that Lyanna passed the rest of her life at ToJ ever since she saw it for the first time.

Otoh, Jon is not connected to ToJ in any way, but he's to Starfall. It's positively stated that his wetnurse lived in Starfall. Besides, Ned was at ToJ (he tore it apart, indeed), then went to Starfall ad sent Jon to WF. This is also the text, there are five books and some ancillary info, no just one sentence telling of a feverish man recalling his sister.

Actually Jon has nothing to connect him to Dorne, Wylla has. IIRC it was said that Ned came from the war with Jon, not from Dorne with Jon.

[sciteacher]

1 hour ago, finger said:

Otoh, Jon is not connected to ToJ in any way, but he's to Starfall. It's positively stated that his wetnurse lived in Starfall. Besides, Ned was at ToJ (he tore it apart, indeed), then went to Starfall ad sent Jon to WF.

 It's not directly stated that Wylla was at Starfall when Jon was born. Edric Dayne, who is about four years younger than Jon tells Arya about Wylla in A Storm of Swords (Arya VIII):

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

 

When Edric is saying this, he is fourteen. Jon would be about eighteen. If Wylla nursed Edric, she had indeed been at Starfall for 'years and years' by then. Edric is a young man talking about things that happened before he was born.

 

We don't know how long Wylla nursed Jon. It's possible she nursed him from birth to weaning. It's possible she nursed him just while he was at Starfall until another nurse could be found. Other scenarios are possible as well; my favorite is that Ned found her 'somewhere' and sent her to the Daynes when Jon was weaned. 

 

All we know about Jon's wet nurse at Winterfell was When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. A Game of Thrones (Catelyn II).

[The Dragon has three heads]

On 11 February 2016 at 4:10 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have to admit I was at first scared off by all the period blood talk... But I won't be quiet about this blatant sexism! Your personal experiences with your vagina give you no extra insite into a fictional fantasy story written by a man. Not to mention that I find it likely (though admittedly not guaranteed) that if you gave birth you had first hand experience with a penis...

But stepping away, as I'm sure you didn't intend to come across as being sexist and I'm not here exclusively to hate, the whole issue isn't even really relevant to the discussion here on the Tower of Joy, except that be it euphemistic or literal the "bed of blood" implies childbirth...

We know that if he men who fought only 2 "lived to ride away"... I think it can be debated wether this means only Howland and Ned lived, or they were the only ones to leave on horseback. After all "they" found Ned holding Lyanna... And there are a lot of references to Lord Dustin's Red Horse that Ned returned home. 

Personally I think the whole timeline makes a lot more sense if Lyanna ran away and met Rheagar because she was pregnant before the rebellion started... That's why Rheagar set up camp in rural Dorne and left Kingsgaurd there, and why Lyanna was out of the picture the whole time. Of course this means that the "bed of blood" was from a second pregnancy (although it helps explain Lewin's odd age comments about Jon, and the HotU vision)... The fact that Dany has weird memories about the house with the red door and Ser Willem (who not so coincidentally is described as having a limp) just help tie the whole thing together... 

But most would call me crackpot so...

 

Oh dude just stop