How is the Wall Coming Down?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

The wall falling due to a horn seems to me to be sort of a cop out.  Especially if one of the "he was trying to do something else with it" theories are true.  Here's this unbelievably giant thing that has stood for thousands of years and then some idiot blows the horn by accident from hundreds of miles away and the thing tumbles down?  Dumb, IMO.  Only way I would be happy with it is if an important character does it intentionally, for some reason that is currently obscure.  

Also no ice dragon.  We already have three dragons.  And there is zero real evidence for "ice dragons" ever existing in planetos. 

I am otoh fond of the idea that the magic of the wall will dissipate once the NW completes its decline ("while the brothers of the NW stay true").  Thereafter it will be vulnerable to attack from the Others by magic or physical means, and will be breached (but not fall).  Perhaps, too, at the end of the series the magic will return as the NW are rebuilt and the wall repaired.

[UnmaskedLurker]

44 minutes ago, Queen Alienor said:

I really like Val, for example, and she's currently at the Wall. Now, she could of course have left the Wall at the time it comes down, but that I think depends on when that happens. If for example the Wall comes down immediately following the stabbing of Jon, which I consider unlikely but possible, pretty much everyone who is there now faces a pretty ugly death. If it takes a while... well, that really depends on who takes control there, doesn't it?

If, Idk, Tormund and Val take control with the help of a couple loyal brothers (unlikely, I know, but just bear with me here) then I don't see her leaving the Wall. If Bowen Marsh takes control, he might decide to keep her as a hostage, misunderstanding her title as princess of the Wildlings like Stannis and his crew do. If Jon himself is only injured and able to retake command, there's a good chance she'd stay, too.

And of course, there's a few Watch men like Iron Emmet and Pyp and Grenn and Dolorous Edd who are stationed at the Wall (not CB, but still the Wall) who I've come to like.

I highly doubt that Val or Tormund will stay at the Wall when Jon leaves for Winterfell. I think Tormund and Val might die in other ways (they don't have the "plot armor" that Jon has because they are not needed for the endgame), but I doubt they will stay at the Wall when Jon leaves.

The watch men that you like -- however -- probably are doomed when the Wall falls. So that part certainly is a potentially sad consequence to the Wall coming down. But any main character likely will be long gone before the Wall comes down.

Spoiler

There are rumors regarding Season 6 of GoT that the Wall comes down in spectacular fashion in Episode 9 or 10 -- and Jon has been long gone from the Wall way before that -- as his story arc through most of Season 6 is rumored to be the Battle of the Bastards to re-take Winterfell.

 

[The Drunkard]

I hope gets attacked en masse by some gigantic zombie army and the defenders get a chance to actually use the Wall for its original purpose. For it to be almost immediately bypassed with some magical MacGuffin would be lame.

[Rattenhoofd]

50 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

The wall falling due to a horn seems to me to be sort of a cop out.  Especially if one of the "he was trying to do something else with it" theories are true.  Here's this unbelievably giant thing that has stood for thousands of years and then some idiot blows the horn by accident from hundreds of miles away and the thing tumbles down?  Dumb, IMO.  

Completely agree. The mere idea that something as banal as horn could bring down the Wall is ridiculous. Plus it would raise so many questions; who else but the Others could be powerful enough to make it, and if they have, why haven't they used it sooner/left it buried around the Fist?

Then again, why would Martin make Sam lug it around if it didn't have a purpose?

[Queen Alienor]

4 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I highly doubt that Val or Tormund will stay at the Wall when Jon leaves for Winterfell. I think Tormund and Val might die in other ways (they don't have the "plot armor" that Jon has because they are not needed for the endgame), but I doubt they will stay at the Wall when Jon leaves.

The watch men that you like -- however -- probably are doomed when the Wall falls. So that part certainly is a potentially sad consequence to the Wall coming down. But any main character likely will be long gone before the Wall comes down.

  Hide contents

There are rumors regarding Season 6 of GoT that the Wall comes down in spectacular fashion in Episode 9 or 10 -- and Jon has been long gone from the Wall way before that -- as his story arc through most of Season 6 is rumored to be the Battle of the Bastards to re-take Winterfell.

 

Well, I don't think it's a given that Jon will leave for WF. It's a possibility, but there's a dozen different ways this could go down. Maybe he stays, maybe he goes to the other side of the wall and allies with the NK, we just really don't know yet. And as long as we don't know that yet, it's rather hard to predict how Val and Tormund may act.

As to season 6

Spoiler

I don't actually consider the show much of an indicator as to what character is going to do what anymore. Jaime had nothing to do in Dorne, and Sansa in WF required pretty much every character that was involved to loose at least half their brains, not to mention that it completely ignored her story in the Vale, and that's only the most obvious ones.

There's some speculation that show!Jon will take Stannis book arc, which makes sense given that they killed of Stannis in the show. That would indicate that it's actually Stannis who goes to WF, which, at least to me, makes more sense, really.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, Queen Alienor said:

Well, I don't think it's a given that Jon will leave for WF. It's a possibility, but there's a dozen different ways this could go down. Maybe he stays, maybe he goes to the other side of the wall and allies with the NK, we just really don't know yet. And as long as we don't know that yet, it's rather hard to predict how Val and Tormund may act.

As to season 6

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't actually consider the show much of an indicator as to what character is going to do what anymore. Jaime had nothing to do in Dorne, and Sansa in WF required pretty much every character that was involved to loose at least half their brains, not to mention that it completely ignored her story in the Vale, and that's only the most obvious ones.

There's some speculation that show!Jon will take Stannis book arc, which makes sense given that they killed of Stannis in the show. That would indicate that it's actually Stannis who goes to WF, which, at least to me, makes more sense, really.

 

While everything you say is possible, my main point is that while I agree that (i) Jon almost certainly survives to the endgame and (ii) if the Wall comes down, all at the Wall will die, these observations simply do not make the Wall coming down less likely. GRRM has an easy time justifying getting Jon away from the Wall in time. So Jon currently being at the Wall simply is not part of any reasonable analysis regarding the likelihood of the Wall coming down.

The likelihood of the Wall coming down, in my view, is based on the narrative imperative. The Others need to cross the Wall in some fashion. The other theories (holes, tunnels, melting) are not particularly dramatic. The is NO downside to GRRM to have the Wall fall -- it is all UPSIDE. GRRM get an amazing "visual" of the massive Wall collapsing and destroying the NW and everything else around -- with the Others coming across the rubble.

Any characters currently at the Wall that GRRM wants to survive the calamity he simply comes up with a reason for them not to be there at that time. I suggested one possibility -- but the actual reason is beside the point. Jon and anyone else needed in the story to survive longer simply won't be there at that time -- simple as that.

[Queen Alienor]

13 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

While everything you say is possible, my main point is that while I agree that (i) Jon almost certainly survives to the endgame and (ii) if the Wall comes down, all at the Wall will die, these observations simply do not make the Wall coming down less likely. GRRM has an easy time justifying getting Jon away from the Wall in time. So Jon currently being at the Wall simply is not part of any reasonable analysis regarding the likelihood of the Wall coming down.

The likelihood of the Wall coming down, in my view, is based on the narrative imperative. The Others need to cross the Wall in some fashion. The other theories (holes, tunnels, melting) are not particularly dramatic. The is NO downside to GRRM to have the Wall fall -- it is all UPSIDE. GRRM get an amazing "visual" of the massive Wall collapsing and destroying the NW and everything else around -- with the Others coming across the rubble.

Any characters currently at the Wall that GRRM wants to survive the calamity he simply comes up with a reason for them not to be there at that time. I suggested one possibility -- but the actual reason is beside the point. Jon and anyone else needed in the story to survive longer simply won't be there at that time -- simple as that.

Sure, I agree that the Wall kinda has to fall at this point, and GRRM certainly can and will get every character he wants to away from the Wall in time. I was just arguing that Jon going to WF isn't certain, not that the Wall wouldn't fall or Jon had to die while it happens.

[Richard Writhen]

20 hours ago, Butterfreak said:

He doesn't have to go to the Wall to blow the horn.

But why would he do so. Assuming it has no range issues.

[aryagonnakill#2]

5 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

The wall falling due to a horn seems to me to be sort of a cop out.  Especially if one of the "he was trying to do something else with it" theories are true.  Here's this unbelievably giant thing that has stood for thousands of years and then some idiot blows the horn by accident from hundreds of miles away and the thing tumbles down?  Dumb, IMO.  Only way I would be happy with it is if an important character does it intentionally, for some reason that is currently obscure.  

Also no ice dragon.  We already have three dragons.  And there is zero real evidence for "ice dragons" ever existing in planetos. 

I am otoh fond of the idea that the magic of the wall will dissipate once the NW completes its decline ("while the brothers of the NW stay true").  Thereafter it will be vulnerable to attack from the Others by magic or physical means, and will be breached (but not fall).  Perhaps, too, at the end of the series the magic will return as the NW are rebuilt and the wall repaired.

I'm with you on this 100%.  Old Nan knows what she's talking about.  I think the myth about the wall falling to the horn of Joramun is simply because the Wildlings attacked the wall when it was sounded and it was the only time in their whole history that they were victorious, so in a sense the wall fell to them.

[UnmaskedLurker]

9 minutes ago, Queen Alienor said:

Sure, I agree that the Wall kinda has to fall at this point, and GRRM certainly can and will get every character he wants to away from the Wall in time. I was just arguing that Jon going to WF isn't certain, not that the Wall wouldn't fall or Jon had to die while it happens.

Gotcha. I threw the Jon at Winterfell as a possibility simply because it seems like one way to get him away from the Wall in time. I agree that we cannot be sure Jon will go to WF -- nor can we be sure the Wall will fall. But I am more confident in the theory that the Wall will fall (due to narrative imperative) than I am that Jon will go to WF (given that there are other ways for him to be away from the Wall at that time and other possible things for him to be doing). Jon was, however, intending to head toward WF prior to getting stabbed, so logically it would make sense that once he recovers, WF is where he would go.

[Queen Alienor]

48 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Gotcha. I threw the Jon at Winterfell as a possibility simply because it seems like one way to get him away from the Wall in time. I agree that we cannot be sure Jon will go to WF -- nor can we be sure the Wall will fall. But I am more confident in the theory that the Wall will fall (due to narrative imperative) than I am that Jon will go to WF (given that there are other ways for him to be away from the Wall at that time and other possible things for him to be doing). Jon was, however, intending to head toward WF prior to getting stabbed, so logically it would make sense that once he recovers, WF is where he would go.

I agree. The Wall falling has a certain inevitability to it. You just don't put a big wall that will stop the invaders and therefore prevent the conflict in your magical world if you don't intend this wall to fall at some point.

However, I would say that we don't know for sure whether Jon was going to head for WF. Sure, he gives a speech, but that speech was for an audience, so he might have had different intentions. We learn in ASOS that he prefers to meet an attacking force with a group mounted rangers when the goal is to defend CB instead of waiting at CB which he knows to be rather indefensible from the south, so it could be argued that he only intended to do exactly that, meet Ramsay's allegedly coming forces before they reach CB and then return home. So... he could go to a lot of places, really. I'm kinda waiting for Alys Karstarks offer of help to come up again, though that could happen in completely different circumstances.

[chrisdaw]

I hope it is no the horn, as it defies logic that whoever would bury the horn there would leave it without a warning note or something that reads not to fix the horn and blow it or the wall will come down. It's just human nature when someone finds something broken to fix it and try it out. So unless the person that buried the horn wants the wall to come down it'd be silly if the horn is capable of dropping the wall.

I hope the Others have their own opposite to Bran, the Greenseers manipulated world geography to smash the land bridge and turn land to ocean, so it doesn't seem out of the question that such powers could be used to create an earthquake and bring down the wall.

[Clegane'sPup]

Let’s say the old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze (ACOK Jon IV), which had proved cracked, and even after he [Jon] had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it (ACOK Jon V) that Sam took with him on his journey to Oldtown; as Sam remembers, his swordbelt hung from a peg on the wall, beside the old cracked horn that Jon had given him ( AFFC Sam III) is the Horn of Joramun.

If Sam gets the horn repaired while he is in Oldtown and toots a few deep breaths through it, is the sound going to carry all the way to the Wall? Or is Sam, in WoW going to travel back to the Wall and say, “Look Jon, I had the horn repaired, arrooooo, Wall crumbles.

Wait a minute, how is Sam going to talk to Jon? Jon is dead. No, Jon is undead. No, Jon is a deserter. No, Jon is … if Sam while in Oldtown blows the repaired war horn that Jon gave him and the Wall comes tumbling down that is going to be one mighty magical feat.

I don’t think that Sam has the fabled Horn of Joramun.

[hiemal]

My tinfoil take is that it will come tumbling down as a result of the burning of Shireen.

[ShadowLiberal]

On 2/11/2016 at 5:51 PM, sarah.jenice said:

I always keep coming back to this: "The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say."

I think that the magic in the Wall will be negated by the NW brothers spilling the blood of the LC at the Wall itself. They had also just murdered the previous LC.

Perhaps, but simply killing the Lord Commander or having a civil war among the Night's Watch isn't enough to cause the magic to stop working.

 

We know that the Night King became corrupted, and corrupted all the members of the NW at the Night Fort. And he ruled as a king for years before he got taken out.

 

We also know that at least 2 of the NW castles once declared war on each other, and that the Starks had to come in and take out both sides.

 

That strongly implies a few things.

 

1) A corrupt Lord Commander who has lost their way and is making their people lose their ways is not enough to stop the magic from working.

2) Night Watch brother murdering night watch brother and declaring war on each other for no justified reason is also not enough to stop the magic..

 

That seems to imply that the entire Night Watch needs to be corrupted and lose their ways for the magic to stop working.

[Neptunium]

46 minutes ago, ShadowLiberal said:

Perhaps, but simply killing the Lord Commander or having a civil war among the Night's Watch isn't enough to cause the magic to stop working.

 

We know that the Night King became corrupted, and corrupted all the members of the NW at the Night Fort. And he ruled as a king for years before he got taken out.

 

We also know that at least 2 of the NW castles once declared war on each other, and that the Starks had to come in and take out both sides.

 

That strongly implies a few things.

 

1) A corrupt Lord Commander who has lost their way and is making their people lose their ways is not enough to stop the magic from working.

2) Night Watch brother murdering night watch brother and declaring war on each other for no justified reason is also not enough to stop the magic..

 

That seems to imply that the entire Night Watch needs to be corrupted and lose their ways for the magic to stop working.

It's possible the magic can stop working temporarily. For all we know the magic did stop during those events and started up again when they stopped. The difference could be that this time the Others are already coming.

 

If the wall does come down, it doesn't have to be the whole wall. Just one chunk of it would still be pretty spectacular.

[LmL]

On February 12, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

Horn of Winter is the biggest red herring in this series. However, I do not write off the possibility that whoever blows the Horn of Winter will coincide with the REAL reason.it falls down.

And that main reason is the red comet we saw in A Clash of Kings. It is going to hit the moon, and parts of it are going to land all across Planetos, bringing the Long NIght. One huge chunk is going to hit the Wall, bringing it down. Big credit goes to LmL and his amazing essays about astronomy and how original Long Night went down.

 

Thanks Scorpion92, I just saw this topic and was wondering if anyone had mentioned my prediction about the comet returning to strike the moon and give us a fresh round of moon meteors to cause a new Long Night, since of course I believe that is what caused that last one. Very kind of you to mention me ser, my thanks. 

And yes, I do think that the mechanism for both the Wall breaking and the new Long Night falling, complete with total darkness during the daytime (or near darkness), will be a meter impact. I'll settle for the comet itself but I really think it will be the comet striking the moon, followed by a meteor impact which will bring darkness and cold again. I suspect Jon may resurrect at this time as well... that's kind of what the symbolism points to. 

Oh and by the way, I actually think that the 'dragonbinder' horn that Victarion has is really 'comet binder,' and that blowing it will summon the comet or have something to do with provoking the comet - moon impact. That's what happened originally, I believe, and so in that way the horn can wake giants in the earth and destroy the Wall. I suspect we'll be getting a bit of quaking when those meteors hilt. 

[briantw]

On 2/11/2016 at 6:18 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I’m just throwing this out there; With winter coming, the big freezing cold winter, what is the possibility that the Wall doesn’t have to crash. I mean the only reason The Mance was trying to break CB was to get him & the wildlings to safety on the south side of the Wall by opening the gate at CB.

What’s the possibility that the Other’s and the wights might simply use a frozen river to work their way around the Wall at Shadow Tower or a frozen sea at Eastwatch? Maybe water is another deterrent to the Other’s, but frozen water, ice, is a resource that they can use to their advantage.

What made me think about it was, when Sam stabbed the Other with the obsidian/dragon glass/frozen fire the Other melted.

If the Others can just walk around the Wall, it makes the Wall kind of pointless, doesn't it?

[Coxy]

As someone else has said, I suspect like the Berlin Wall; at some point people on both sides will want the wall down. At the moment anything 'Other' north of the wall is demonised (and it appears not without reason.) I think GRRM has said enough times that the north of the wall isn't like mordor and he doesn't write stories about good vs evil. There is more to this and I really think the wall will need to come down for the good of all at some point.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 hours ago, briantw said:

If the Others can just walk around the Wall, it makes the Wall kind of pointless, doesn't it?

Yep, kinda sorta does. Saving space by using spoilers.

There are still a few books to go until all is said and done but let’s start with the Horn of Joramun being a fable/tale/story. People in story don’t seem concerned with Other’s, wight’s, or the Wall coming down. It seems to me that the northerner’s and the NW are more concerned about protecting the realm against wildlings although Mormont before his death thinks that the NW has forgotten its purpose.

Look at when Sam kills the Other with the frozen fire and the references to ice as it relates to the Other:

Spoiler

He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold." (SoS Sam I)

So I thought that maybe the Wall doesn’t have to collapse, the river at Shadow Tower or the sea near East Watch merely needs to freeze hard enough for the Other’s to walk across. Meaning that the Other’s are made of ice. If I put a piece of ice in water it melts. Put ice on ice it sorta slides along.

In story the Wall is 8,000 years old. The Other’s & the CotF are extinct. I though reading the saga understand that this is not true.

Spoiler

His [Eddard] smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one." (GoT Cat I)

Robert said. "The Wall has stood for what, eight thousand years? It can keep a few days more. (GoT Eddard I)

Bran’s coma dream makes reference to ice and what is waiting & as much as I don’t like it, that troublesome quote about Jon:

Spoiler

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live. (GoT Bran III)

I start getting a description of the Wall and how the Wall changes it color depending upon how the light hits it. Jon thinks the Wall is the end of the world, but Bran while in his coma has looked past the Wall and into the heart of winter & was afraid.

Spoiler

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky … but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky. <snip> You could see it from miles off, a pale blue line across the northern horizon, stretching away to the east and west and vanishing in the far distance, immense and unbroken. This is the end of the world, it seemed to say. GoT Jon III

Sam squinted up at the Wall. It loomed above them, an icy cliff seven hundred feet high. Sometimes it seemed to Jon almost a living thing, with moods of its own. The color of the ice was wont to change with every shift of the light. Now it was the deep blue of frozen rivers, now the dirty white of old snow, and when a cloud passed before the sun it darkened to the pale grey of pitted stone. The Wall stretched east and west as far as the eye could see, so huge that it shrunk the timbered keeps and stone towers of the castle to insignificance. It was the end of the world.

And we are going beyond it. (CoK Jon I)

The NW seem to think the threat is the wildlings.The wildling lead by The Mance are trying to get south of the Wall to get away from the threat. Qhorin thinks that if the Wall should fall it means Armageddon.

"The fire will soon go out," Qhorin said, "but if the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out."

There was nothing Jon could say to that. He nodded.(CoK Jon VIII)

If I go back to the prologue in AGoT I get more references about how the Other’s are possibly made of ice and how they change color:

Spoiler

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain.

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. (Prologue GoT)

So, yeah, I think that if the rivers and the sea freeze the Other’s can walk anywhere they want as long as it cold enough. Does the cold bring the Other’s or do the Other’s bring the cold. Bran has looked into the heart of winter and he knows what’s coming. The Horn of Joramun is a myth. The Wall doesn’t have to collapse in order for the Other’s to get south of the Wall. Winter is coming.