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Some thoughts in connection with the runes on Illyn Payne’s new sword:

 

While looking at female swords – Dark Sister and Lady Forlorn, I realized that Dark Sister pretty much describes Visenya, who first wielded it. Now, Visenya and Arya also share many characteristics and in particular, Arya is a very Dark Sister. So that got me wondering whether Rhaenys and Sansa (who also correlate), neither of whom had/have special swords, can also be described in terms of a female sword. Lady Forlorn, currently owned by Lyn Corbray fits the bill for both. Both Rhaenys and Sansa have the ‘forlorn’ surrounding them, Rhaenys dying alone in Dorne and Sansa was left forlorn and alone in King’s Landing. There is one more forlorn lady I’ll come to in a bit. Sansa’s wolf Lady may also be a nod at Lady Forlorn and this is where Ice comes in. Lady was Ned’s last execution before he was executed by Ilyn Payne. Note the wordplay here: Illyn/Lyn. It’s quite monstrous to be executed with one’s own sword, especially a Valyrian steel sword wrought with magic and sacrifices. I think Ser Illyn felt haunted after the execution and the reason for the runes on Ser Illyn’s new sword is protection from the revnant (either Ned’s or that of the sword). We recall that swords keep the ghosts of the kings of winter within their tomb – in the days of runic writing, the runes probably served this purpose (as on Tristifer Mudd’s tomb). Whatever the case, together, the runes and the wordplay on Illyn/lyn lead to the Corbrays and Royces (who also owned Lady Forlorn for a short while) and of course to Sansa.

 

Sansa notes Lady Forlorn looks like Ice, the steel a dark smoke-grey. There was also a correction to the World Book regarding the sword’s Valyrian origins – apparently, Valyrian steel should not have been part of the description. This means it’s likely not a Valyrian Steel sword. In fact, it failed against Blackfyre. However, Blackfyre and Dark Sister can be regarded as a pair and I think Ice and Lady Forlorn are also a pair – Ice the male and Lady Forlorn its female partner. Lyn Corbray says she has a thirst for a drop of red and I really like this because it’s so full of meaning. A ‘drop of red’ could be blood, wine or simply a drop of colour. Aside from the killing aspect, her thirst could be a drop of blood to turn her into a Valyrian steel sword, a drop of colour pointing to the reforging of ice. When Ice is melted down, the smith tries to colour the sword with red colouring but the steel doesn’t take to it uniformly. Nevertheless, it ripples red and black. Perhaps Ice does not need the colouring because it’s already been infused. Anyway, Ice is melted down into Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail and the plot kind of thickens here because we have another pair parallel, methinks. The Royce’s ancestral sword ‘Lamentation’, lost at the Storming of the Dragonpit could correspond to Widow’s Wail while Oathkeeper, now in Brienne’s possession could be considered a female sword and pair with Lady Forlorn. Brienne herself is another forlorn lady for a number of reasons. The men who spurn her, her love for Renly whom she lost, her seeing him in Gendry etc (reminds me also of the Sailor’s wife hoping for her lost husband). Of course Brienne has sworn to find Sansa (literally her sworn sword - har!) which brings us back in a circle to Lady Forlorn. Last not but least, when you leave the ‘a’s out of Lyanna, you get Lyn. And Lyanna was one forlorn lady. The whole thing tells a story which needs to be unravelled.

I began looking into female swords because I have the feeling Jon is meant to wield a female sword rather than the more conventional theories regarding Dawn etc. Some speculation here: if Blackfyre turns up with fAegon and Jon ends up in battle against him, he must have a sword capable of withstanding Blackfyre. Lady Forlorn once failed against Blackfyre, but with a 'drop of blood' she might be the answer to that same sword. Lyanna needs avenging in my opinion, (I'm not in the R+L=J camp) and what better sword than Lady Forlorn with a drop of blood for that purpose? 

Not much on the runes but more wordplay – so far runes/ruins remain a bit of an enigma to me.

ETA - forgot to add that Lady Forlorn has a red heart pommel! Just hoping she isn't thirsting for Sansa!

ETA - Actually, being female, she would be thirsting for a man's blood. Harry the Heir seems like the perfect candidate, red Hair and all. :-)

Edited by Evolett
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Dorn/Thorn/Dorne... Thorne/Throne

When we were discussing German language equivalents earlier (ie stark means strong), I don't know how I missed this one!  Dorn is thorn in German.  We have one "thorn" in the story: Alester Thorne.  Both Dorne and Thorne are words with a silent E added to them.

Dorne is the feminist kingdom.  With the idea in mind that woman are roses, Feminist (and yeah I'm stereotyping) don't want to be seen as flowers/seen as soft, but seen as strong, capable women... the thorns?  

Thorns represent getting hurt by a lover,  and (which I read somewhere) the two great love losses that GRRM experienced in the 70s (one girl left him for his best friend, another stayed friends, which relationship always bothered him deep down) were feminist.

Thorn/Thorne/Throne  The Iron Throne is much like a rose.  When one thinks of the Iron Throne and of a rose, one thinks of the top: the seat and the actual flower.   In reality, there are thorns/swords underneath that can prick someone. 

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5 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Dorn/Thorn/Dorne... Thorne/Throne

When we were discussing German language equivalents earlier (ie stark means strong), I don't know how I missed this one!  Dorn is thorn in German.  We have one "thorn" in the story: Alester Thorne.  Both Dorne and Thorne are words with a silent E added to them.

Dorne is the feminist kingdom.  With the idea in mind that woman are roses, Feminist (and yeah I'm stereotyping) don't want to be seen as flowers/seen as soft, but seen as strong, capable women... the thorns?  

Thorns represent getting hurt by a lover,  and (which I read somewhere) the two great love losses that GRRM experienced in the 70s (one girl left him for his best friend, another stayed friends, which relationship always bothered him deep down) were feminist.

Thorn/Thorne/Throne  The Iron Throne is much like a rose.  When one thinks of the Iron Throne and of a rose, one thinks of the top: the seat and the actual flower.   In reality, there are thorns/swords underneath that can prick someone. 

Excellent! Also uncanny that you would be making the feminist / flower / thorn connection at this moment!

A friend who is not comfortable with online searches asked me to research for her a mystery flower that had shown up in her garden. It didn't take long to identify it as a flower called Greek Valerian. This startled me only slightly because I had already made the connection that Widow's Wail is also the name of a flower. Taken together, though, alongside the notion that Lyanna was a warrior who died of battle wounds, (not of blood loss following childbirth,) it seemed to me that GRRM is deliberately linking flowers and swords to tell us something about women and battle. The wreath of winter roses given to Lyanna may have been a coded message that Rhaegar recognized her as the secret warrior The Knight of the Laughing Tree, not a token of romantic love. Does the nickname for Ser Loras Tyrell, the Knight of the Flowers, also connect him to this feminist warrior motif? Certainly the Westeros idiom of "flowering" as a way to refer to the onset of menstruation is an indication that women bleeding is linked to the flower symbolism.

We also have Arya learning to fight with a sword in ways that involve water dancing and "stick 'em with the pointy end." Men who fight with swords have more upper body strength and probably do more slashing than "sticking." So the use of a sword to stab (in the manner of a thorn) may be a uniquely female way of making effective use of the weapon.

Aside from Ser Alliser Thorne, we do have one other important thorn: Olenna Tyrell, the Queen of Thorns. She is definitely a first-string player in the Game of Thrones, but she plays the game in ways available to a high-born lady, using alliances, relationships, wealth, invitations, surrogates and secret, behind-the-scenes moves. A thorn among the roses, as it were. I don't fully understand GRRM's comparison between Olenna and Ser Alliser, but there does seem to be a deliberate pairing of the two. I hope the connection will become clearer when we see more of both characters in the next books.

One connection between Ser Alliser and Olenna that I hadn't recognized until just now is that they both play a role in teaching young people how to "stab": Ser Alliser as the Master at Arms for the Night's Watch, and Lady Olenna guiding Margaery and (to some extent) Sansa in playing the game among the high-born at the court in King's Landing.

There may be a little foreshadowing about another up-and-coming player in this motif: Marillion tells Sansa that he is going to write a song about her called "Roadside Rose," I believe. This could be a sign that she is going to do more combative, warrior-like things in the upcoming books. (With wordplay, it's sometimes difficult to avoid going off on the next tangent, but I wonder whether the House Whent bats that some people are seeing coming to the fore in Sansa's arc are connected to the stab that one might suffer from mishandling the thorns on a rose?)

The clearest connection I see between the Iron Throne and thorns is the pricking: recall that King Aerys was covered with knicks and cuts from the sharp edges and points of his uncomfortable but mandated chair. There is a belief that the chair somehow "chooses" which monarchs are acceptable or favored, and that kings who suffer frequent cuts are being rejected by the throne. This could symbolize that these kings are not good at playing the "game of thorns." Maybe it's also significant that Jaime Lannister sits in the Iron Throne immediately after he kills King Aerys with his sword.

Terrific catch on the Dorne / thorn connection! I studied German for five years, but I've barely used it for thirty years and a lot of vocabulary has flown out of my head. (Maybe I never even learned that word!) Dorne is absolutely loaded with women warriors. (I wonder whether there is a deliberate wordplay connection between Sansa and Sand Snakes?)

At any rate, I will pay much closer attention to flowers on future rereads and in the upcoming books. I want to research other swords, as well, to see if other named swords share names with flowers.

 

Edited by Seams
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I discussed the purple valerian flower a bunch in my bloodstone emperor essays. The valerian is a member of the heliotropium genus, and and heliotrope is another name for bloodstone. George has an entire line of moon symbolism having to do with flowers - think of Lyanna's rose - but of course the moon meteors are described as dragons and swords, and they come from the moon. If the moon is the flower, Lightbribger is the iron thorn. I believe that is what the connection is between women and swords. This idea also manifests with all the comparisons between the battle of steel blades and the battle of the birthing bed. The impact of the comet into the moon can be depicted as a stabbing or as an impregnation - that's what that whole "bloody sword" thing with Lady Barbrey and Brandon Stark was about in ADWD. 

Getting back to the valerian flower being purple and a type of heliotropium, this also signifies that the Valyrians descend from the Bloodstone Emperor and the Great Empire of the Dawn, an hypothesis I have already proposed using a completely different line of evidence. 

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There's also a scene in AGOT at the Battle of the Green Fork where Tywin's army unfolds like an iron rose, thorns gleaming. Lightbringer is the weapon of the solar king, but it's made of moon: and thus, the iron rose (which would be a black iron rose) with all of its thorns is the weapon (army) of the solar king, which is Lightbringer. 

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

A friend who is not comfortable with online searches asked me to research for her a mystery flower that had shown up in her garden. It didn't take long to identify it as a flower called Greek Valerian. This startled me only slightly because I had already made the connection that Widow's Wail is also the name of a flower. Taken together, though, alongside the notion that Lyanna was a warrior who died of battle wounds, (not of blood loss following childbirth,) it seemed to me that GRRM is deliberately linking flowers and swords to tell us something about women and battle. The wreath of winter roses given to Lyanna may have been a coded message that Rhaegar recognized her as the secret warrior The Knight of the Laughing Tree, not a token of romantic love. Does the nickname for Ser Loras Tyrell, the Knight of the Flowers, also connect him to this feminist warrior motif? Certainly the Westeros idiom of "flowering" as a way to refer to the onset of menstruation is an indication that women bleeding is linked to the flower symbolism.

The flower/thorn motif is one of disguise and alluring deception, of hiding dangerous thorns beneath a bouquet of innocent, beautiful sweet scented flowers. The flowers do not advertise the thorns nor are they supposed to. They hide the secret weapon underneath, which strikes when the time is right. The motif is similar to Oberyn and Doran Martell - the grass that hides the snake, the difference being that flower and thorns are united in one person, in a few select women. Tyenne and Nym are very good examples. Beautiful, seductive and alluring but very deadly. You get hit and go down without even realizing it. Obara does not fit this bill because she's too obviously aggressive. She's a real thorn. As is Ser Alliser Thorne, a warrior, aggressive, always angry and ready to draw a weapon, much like Obara.  Lady Olenna's inofficial title as the Queen of Thorns which no one says to her face also outs her as a real thorn - it is no secret, everyone knows how thorny she can be. She's also a crone, her former beauty faded - she is no longer alluring in any way. Loras, decked out in flowery raiment and known officially as the Knight of Flowers is the male version of this seductive hidden deadliness. He's even described as beautiful. It's thus no surprise he engages in the deception of riding a white mare in heat to unhorse the Mountain during the tourney.  The flower attracts its victim, lures it into a false sense of security and then moves in for the kill. 

Regarding Rhaegar (Aerys is my candidate), the purpose of the blue winter roses was the same: to lure and to disguise the warrior aspect from him, not for him to recognize it. In my opinion, the blue winter rose, like the wolf-blood, symbolizes a genetic trait as well as Lyanna and Jon. In Lyanna's case, her wolf-blood is the thorn and the 'stabbing' thus takes place during the conception of her son. The target is that paternal trait that would otherwise make a 'monster' of her son. As a trait, it's of course introduced by Bael the Bard, the deceiver who steals the Stark maiden and leaves his (he earned it) rose in her place. It passes down the line until it finally reaches its destination, specifically in a woman. The theme of sniffing is also related to this I think. If my analysis is correct, then Sansa has the flowers but not the thorns (Lady killed). 

 

5 hours ago, Seams said:

The clearest connection I see between the Iron Throne and thorns is the pricking: recall that King Aerys was covered with knicks and cuts from the sharp edges and points of his uncomfortable but mandated chair. There is a belief that the chair somehow "chooses" which monarchs are acceptable or favored, and that kings who suffer frequent cuts are being rejected by the throne

I really like Isobel's catch on the Iron Throne as a rose with swords as thorns and your thoughts here are symbolic of my view above. 

My Targ inheritance project is progressing slowly. Very complex and so much to go through but it looks like all my designated mother's of the three heads of the dragon have a 'flowery' inheritance - different flowers though. 

So a couple more bits of possible wordplay:

Storm(of petals)born /Thorn

Horn/Thorn

Forlorn/thorn (re my previous post)

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11 minutes ago, Evolett said:

The flower/thorn motif is one of disguise and alluring deception, of hiding dangerous thorns beneath a bouquet of innocent, beautiful sweet scented flowers. The flowers do not advertise the thorns nor are they supposed to. They hide the secret weapon underneath, which strikes when the time is right. The motif is similar to Oberyn and Doran Martell - the grass that hides the snake, the difference being that flower and thorns are united in one person, in a few select women. Tyenne and Nym are very good examples. Beautiful, seductive and alluring but very deadly. You get hit and go down without even realizing it. Obara does not fit this bill because she's too obviously aggressive. She's a real thorn. As is Ser Alliser Thorne, a warrior, aggressive, always angry and ready to draw a weapon, much like Obara.  Lady Olenna's inofficial title as the Queen of Thorns which no one says to her face also outs her as a real thorn - it is no secret, everyone knows how thorny she can be. She's also a crone, her former beauty faded - she is no longer alluring in any way. Loras, decked out in flowery raiment and known officially as the Knight of Flowers is the male version of this seductive hidden deadliness. He's even described as beautiful. It's thus no surprise he engages in the deception of riding a white mare in heat to unhorse the Mountain during the tourney.  The flower attracts its victim, lures it into a false sense of security and then moves in for the kill. 

Regarding Rhaegar (Aerys is my candidate), the purpose of the blue winter roses was the same: to lure and to disguise the warrior aspect from him, not for him to recognize it. In my opinion, the blue winter rose, like the wolf-blood, symbolizes a genetic trait as well as Lyanna and Jon. In Lyanna's case, her wolf-blood is the thorn and the 'stabbing' thus takes place during the conception of her son. The target is that paternal trait that would otherwise make a 'monster' of her son. As a trait, it's of course introduced by Bael the Bard, the deceiver who steals the Stark maiden and leaves his (he earned it) rose in her place. It passes down the line until it finally reaches its destination, specifically in a woman. The theme of sniffing is also related to this I think. If my analysis is correct, then Sansa has the flowers but not the thorns (Lady killed). 

 

I really like Isobel's catch on the Iron Throne as a rose with swords as thorns and your thoughts here are symbolic of my view above. 

My Targ inheritance project is progressing slowly. Very complex and so much to go through but it looks like all my designated mother's of the three heads of the dragon have a 'flowery' inheritance - different flowers though. 

So a couple more bits of possible wordplay:

Storm(of petals)born /Thorn

Horn/Thorn

Forlorn/thorn (re my previous post)

Enjoyed your comment where @Evolett, and I will again point out this passage, with selected quotes:

Quote

 

Tywin Lannister’s battle armor put his son Jaime’s gilded suit to shame. His greatcloak was sewn from countless layers of cloth-of-gold, so heavy that it barely stirred even when he charged, so large that its drape covered most of his stallion’s hindquarters when he took the saddle. No ordinary clasp would suffice for such a weight, so the greatcloak was held in place by a matched pair of miniature lionesses crouching on his shoulders, as if poised to spring. Their mate, a male with a magnificent mane, reclined atop Lord Tywin’s greathelm, one paw raking the air as he roared.

His rondels were golden sunbursts, all his fastenings were gilded, and the red steel was burnished to such a high sheen that it shone like fire in the light of the rising sun.
. . .

Pale crimson fingers fanned out to the east as the first rays of the sun broke over the horizon. The western sky was a deep purple,speckled with stars. Tyrion wondered whether this was the last sunrise he would ever see …

A warhorn sounded in the far distance, a deep mournful note that chilled the soul. 
. . .

The clansmen climbed onto their scrawny mountain horses, shouting curses and rude jokes. Several appeared to be drunk. The rising sun was burning off the drifting tendrils of fog as Tyrion led them off. What grass the horses had left was heavy with dew, as if some passing god had scattered a bag of diamonds over the earth. The mountain men fell in behind him, each clan arrayed behind its own leaders.

In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming.


 

I own't go into detailed analysis here, but the point is that the weapon of the sun is a black iron rose with gleaming thorns. I am claiming that this represents one aspect of Lightbringer.  The moon was the flower, and Lightbringer / the black moon meteors the gleaming thorns. There are some Azor Ahai reborn manifestations who seem to protect and / or avenge moon maidens, namely, Tyrion (the gargoyle version of Azor Ahai reborn) and Sandor (the hellhound version of AA reborn), both of whom protect and avenge Sansa and other moon maidens (penny for Tyrion, Arya for Sandor). I'm speaking in terms of AA reborn archetypes of course when I talk about the hellhound and gargoyle versions of AA reborn. But the point is, they are the thorns to the moon maiden's sweet flower.  It's 100% in line with your thematic analysis about thorns and flowers, Evolett. :) I've really honed in on this moon avenging / protecting aspect of things in my last essay and the one I am going to put out next called "Tyrion Targaryen." :)

@Seams, amazing catch on Widow's Wail being a flower. That's absolutely awesome, it fits in perfectly with Widow's Wail being a symbol of Lightbringer the black moon meteor.  It's tied to Nissa's Wail which cracked the moon, and as I said the moon is a flower - a sun-drinking heliotrope (the dragons that poured forth from the moon drank the fire of the sun). When Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne, he says "you';; protecting Ned Starks' daughters with Ned Stark's steel" - again, the protection aspect. Widow's Wail being a flower is just one more tie to it as a moon sword. Just as Lightbringer was stained with Nissa Nissa's blood, Ned's own sword was stained with his blood. And you'll remember that Arya looks at the red comet, symbol of Lightbringer, and compares it Ned's sword, red with Ned's blood... so again it all ties together very nicely. I'll be sure to credit you when I mention that on the podcast. :cheers:

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13 hours ago, LmL said:

I own't go into detailed analysis here, but the point is that the weapon of the sun is a black iron rose with gleaming thorns. I am claiming that this represents one aspect of Lightbringer.  The moon was the flower, and Lightbringer / the black moon meteors the gleaming thorns. There are some Azor Ahai reborn manifestations who seem to protect and / or avenge moon maidens, namely, Tyrion (the gargoyle version of Azor Ahai reborn) and Sandor (the hellhound version of AA reborn), both of whom protect and avenge Sansa and other moon maidens (penny for Tyrion, Arya for Sandor). I'm speaking in terms of AA reborn archetypes of course when I talk about the hellhound and gargoyle versions of AA reborn. But the point is, they are the thorns to the moon maiden's sweet flower.  It's 100% in line with your thematic analysis about thorns and flowers, Evolett. :) I've really honed in on this moon avenging / protecting aspect of things in my last essay and the one I am going to put out next called "Tyrion Targaryen." :)

Surprising what all this celestial imagery brings to light, but perhaps it's not surprising - the moon, like the flower, is a feminine symbol. 

@Seams' thread has been very helpful in bringing several loose ends together for me. My official thanks and appreciation for opening it .:thumbsup:
I've always paid attention to wordplay but several eyes and minds are better than one with the added bonus of aiding in forging more connections and rethinking ideas that might have led in the wrong direction.

Flowers became a big topic for me while researching my frozen fire post. It was so extensive that I ended up omitting details such as the flower/thorn symbolism as i see it above, saving that for another day. But I think it's central to the story in the sense that the thorn on its own represents the bloody violence that has plagued the planet unhindered for millenia. It's the thorn of war, rape and a symbol of the the aggressive potential of man (male). Now is the time for the 'flowers', heralded by the bleeding comet (the flowering comet), which returns with a female principle attached, to take the sting out of the thorn and put things right (hopefullly). That's how I see it. 

Just another note on thorns - Brienne is another thorn - unattractive and reviled by men and women alike. In a nutshell, she is our ultimate 'flowerless' female warrior but she's sworn an oath to find her companion flower - Sansa. So perhaps my thoughts on Lady Forlorn are not that far-fetched. Brienne is a sword, a thorn sworn to the flower. Sword/sworn/thorn - what lovely wordplay :-)

ETA - George expresses this flower/thorn dichotomy in Arya and Sansa's arcs. Arya, the violent and vengeful thorn (represented by Needle) and Sansa the flower.

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If you haven't already checked it out, I recommend the thread called Question about the Causeway at Queenscrown, by Macgregor of the North. I mention this here because I just started to speculate about an amber / umber pun there. I also shared some thoughts that had been percolating about the name Tormund Giantsbane (door mouth giants poison) which finally started to become clearer to me with Mcgregor's insights about the traditional hatred between the north men (represented by the Umbers) and the Free Folk. There are some other wordplay thoughts in my long (sorry about that) post there. I love it when this forum inspires new lines of thinking! Good job, MotN!

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

If you haven't already checked it out, I recommend the thread called Question about the Causeway at Queenscrown, by Macgregor of the North. I mention this here because I just started to speculate about an amber / umber pun there. I also shared some thoughts that had been percolating about the name Tormund Giantsbane (door mouth giants poison) which finally started to become clearer to me with Mcgregor's insights about the traditional hatred between the north men (represented by the Umbers) and the Free Folk. There are some other wordplay thoughts in my long (sorry about that) post there. I love it when this forum inspires new lines of thinking! Good job, MotN!

"Mund" is also an Old German word meaning something like "protection."  The name Rosamund means "horse protection."  The Old High German name for horse was hros.  (Side note, hros evolved into Ross which means steed.  Germans now use Pferd for horse.)  Perhaps GRRM isn't aware of this though? 

Tür means door, though Tor means gate.  (If I had to guess, both of these words evolved from the same Old German word due to their similar meaning and similar spelling.)

So, I would guess Tormund means either gate mouth or gate protection.  "Gate mouth" is reminiscent of the Weirwood tree Bran goes through, no?

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On February 13, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Seams said:

 

Help me to make a list and analyze some of GRRM's other plays on words and/or rhymes.

Kingsmoot will make no practical difference regardless of outcome. It's a moot point.

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On 5/18/2016 at 9:42 AM, Isobel Harper said:

Dorn/Thorn/Dorne... Thorne/Throne

Thorn/Thorne/Throne  The Iron Throne is much like a rose.  When one thinks of the Iron Throne and of a rose, one thinks of the top: the seat and the actual flower.   In reality, there are thorns/swords underneath that can prick someone. 

I was thinking about this some more and I think you are right. With the tie between thorn and Dorne, and Dorne known as a place with strong ties to Queen Nymeria and generations of women warriors, tolerance for free love and equality for women, there does seem to be literary evidence that a woman should be seated on the Iron Throne. I was interested, when the AWOIAF book came out, that GRRM made a point of saying the towering throne in the illustrations was closer to what he had in mind than is the relatively normal-sized throne in the tv show. Maybe this is further evidence of a long "stem" covered with thorns, needing only a rose on top to complete it.

I bet we should look for uses of the verbs rose / rise in connection with becoming the monarch of Westeros. Hmm. Maybe that's why they call the country Wester-rose.

On 5/19/2016 at 8:12 PM, Evolett said:

So a couple more bits of possible wordplay:

Storm(of petals)born /Thorn

Horn/Thorn

Forlorn/thorn (re my previous post)

I think the horn / thorn pair may become clearer and more relevant very soon. Given Isobel Harper's good catch on the Dorne / thorn connection, I'm thinking that GRRM has generally presented the sword as a weapon for a man (except when it's a needle, which everyone knows is used by a woman) and that a horn might symbolize a weapon to be used by a woman. The mysterious Dragonbinder horn may cause the death of the men who try to blow on it, but maybe it will function as advertised when a woman uses it. Moqorro translates the glyphs on the horn in part, "No mortal man should sound me and live."

On 5/19/2016 at 9:35 AM, Evolett said:

 

@Seams' thread has been very helpful in bringing several loose ends together for me. My official thanks and appreciation for opening it . I've always paid attention to wordplay but several eyes and minds are better than one with the added bonus of aiding in forging more connections and rethinking ideas that might have led in the wrong direction.

...

Just another note on thorns - Brienne is another thorn - unattractive and reviled by men and women alike. In a nutshell, she is our ultimate 'flowerless' female warrior but she's sworn an oath to find her companion flower - Sansa. So perhaps my thoughts on Lady Forlorn are not that far-fetched. Brienne is a sword, a thorn sworn to the flower. Sword/sworn/thorn - what lovely wordplay :-)

I'm finding this thread helpful, too, and I extend my thanks to you and many others who are helping to sort out the trail of breadcrumbs GRRM has left for us. The puns do seem to point toward some of the major motifs. The literary layers of these books are so rich - if more people took the time to explore them, they would understand why it takes GRRM a long time to write each book. This forum is the perfect place for drawing on the many bright minds needed to appreciate this author's depth and creativity.

I love the idea that Sansa somehow completes Brienne as a flower and the sworn thorn wordplay! I wonder whether GRRM will steer Westeros in the direction of Dorne, with the idea that a prince and princess together can lead a country, and that this creates a healthier balance than having one king trying to take charge of everything? If so, there will probably be a number of balancing pairs throughout the story. (I've long suspected that Gendry and Arya will end up ruling Westeros together. Jon and Sam are an obvious pairing of a man of action and a man of books. Cersei and Qyburn are a demonic pair, though, which may disprove this line of thought.) I was thinking that Sansa is starting to turn into more of a "warrior" in her own right, but maybe she will leave some of the warrior work to Brienne.

13 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

"Mund" is also an Old German word meaning something like "protection."  The name Rosamund means "horse protection."  The Old High German name for horse was hros.  (Side note, hros evolved into Ross which means steed.  Germans now use Pferd for horse.)  Perhaps GRRM isn't aware of this though? 

Tür means door, though Tor means gate.  (If I had to guess, both of these words evolved from the same Old German word due to their similar meaning and similar spelling.)

So, I would guess Tormund means either gate mouth or gate protection.  "Gate mouth" is reminiscent of the Weirwood tree Bran goes through, no?

Oh duh. Me and my rusty German again. Thank you for correcting me on door and gate and thanks, also, for the interesting note about the Old High German word for horse. I would bet GRRM is aware of the connection between rose and horse. Amazing. This wordplay all starts to come full circle, doesn't it? Tolkein was a great student of word origins and language. Even if GRRM doesn't have the same depth of academic understanding, he does have a great appreciation for words and for good writing. I bet he has read up on word origins and etymology and that this adds layers to the messages in his books.

 

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

 

Oh duh. Me and my rusty German again. Thank you for correcting me on door and gate and thanks, also, for the interesting note about the Old High German word for horse. I would bet GRRM is aware of the connection between rose and horse. Amazing. This wordplay all starts to come full circle, doesn't it? Tolkein was a great student of word origins and language. Even if GRRM doesn't have the same depth of academic understanding, he does have a great appreciation for words and for good writing. I bet he has read up on word origins and etymology and that this adds layers to the messages in his books.

 

Not many people would know that Mund (which now means "mouth") originally meant "protection."  I'm a huge name-nerd, and happen to know some etymological aspects of names.

 I'm a bit rusty too.  I almost forgot Tür had an Umlaut; little things like this are slowly escaping me.

As for GRRM being conscious of the etymology of names... IF theories about the Myrcella-Rosamund swap are correct, then YES!  Rosamund means "horse protection."  And Rosamund (not Myrcella) was saved by her horse when it bucked during Darkstar's attack. 

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Since I speak German, I’ve been aware of thorn/dorn/Dorne as well as horse/ross/rose for a while. I have an interpretation for ross as in horse and /rose but the connection to whores/horse only came to my attention after you mentioned it here.

I think ross/rose becomes clear when we combine Lyanna’s riding prowess with the blue winter rose symbolism surrounding her. Together, the horse and the rose make an excellent rider, also evident in Ser Loras, the knight of flowers who’s an excellent jouster and rider. It’s another way of expressing the centaur, the human rider merged with the horse, which has skinchanging implications.

The horse and rose analogy also extends to someone like Pate who is willing to pay a gold dragon to claim Rosey’s virginity – the twist here is he wants to ‘mount’ Rosey. So with this in my back pocket, the horse/whores wordplay became more apparent. In most of the narrative, men do not spend quality time making love to whores (with the exception of Tyrion). Whores are bought and paid for. Men mount them for their own pleasure. The Dothraki carry this to the extreme, mounting any woman they please and in the case of a woman taken as a slave, several men mounting one after the other. Tywin also has poor Tysha mounted by the entire garrison and lastly by Tyrion himself, as we know. In a parallel to Pate, Tyrion has to pay her a gold dragon for his turn. After the wedding night, Drogo also takes to mounting Dany until she learns ‘the way of the seven sighs’ from Doreah to teach him a mutual, pleasurable way of making love. I can’t say I’ve figured this out entirely but I suspect mutually consensual loving sex is one of the keys to ‘waking the dragon’ while the violent rape of women appears to be a ritual necessary to perhaps raising the dead – as in horse/whores/ and rose as in rising.

 

Hodor serves as Bran’s ‘horse’ and while he willingly allows Bran to physically mount him in order to carry him around, Bran’s ‘mounting’ Hodor by taking over his entire body is something else. Bran does penetrate Hodor against the giant’s will and though he does not fight back, he retreats to a corner inside himself during the time Bran fills his physical form. It’s actually as violating as forcibly mounting a woman – another form of rape. Bloodraven tells Bran that once a horse has been ridden, it is more likely to accept another – much as a woman who has been raped and cowed is more likely to resign herself to her fate and accept another. I recall Osha commenting on the size of Hodor’s penis when he emerges from the pool bringing the expression ‘hung like a horse’ to mind. Can’t find the passage right now. It seems to me that GRRM is equating skinchanging with rape and this is probably one of the differences between the bond that binds dragons to humans vrs. skinchangers to their beasts. (At this point, I have to differentiate warging from skinchanging – they are not the same.)

 

Speaking of Hodor, there might be a correlation between Hodor and Odor. Giants have poor eyesight compensated by their sense of smell. The giants beyond the wall also stink. When Jon first meets Mag the Mighty, Tormund tells him that the giant thinks Jon is a girl. We don’t know just how bad a giant’s eyesight is but the inference is he smelt, rather than saw Jon. Why would have he smelt a girl? My feeling is Mag ‘smelt’ the 'sweet scent of blue winter roses’ on Jon. At Queenscrown Hodor makes several rounds of the room, inspecting the privy each time, a place likely to smell. He begins to whimper precisely when Jon arrives with the wildlings in the village below. The storm starts in earnest too and Hodor really panics then. But does he panic because of the storm or because he ‘smelt’ Jon and the danger he was in below? Interestingly, Bran momentarily inhabits Hodor for the first time here. Can’t put my finger on it, but there’s something there.

 

Anyway, there seems to be a lot of wordplay around horses, whores, mount (the verb), mount (the noun) etc. Horses are also mounts and we have the Mountain that Rides – a giant that not only rides but rapes as well.

The Stallion that Mounts the World – the stallion that ‘fucks’ the world…

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dire / dyer

reed / read

wolf / flow

Someone misspelled the word "dire" (as in "dire peril") in another thread. As I mentally corrected it, it finally hit me that Arya's friend, Lommy Greenhands, who is an apprentice dyer of fabrics, has to somehow allude to the dire wolves. I had earlier considered a connection between Lommy the dyer and dying, but there are so many deaths in the books that it's hard to pin down a meaning if the pun is on dying fabric and losing-one's-life dying. I don't think Lommy's personality is meant to emulate Nymeria, so I suspect that it's his death that is symbolic in Arya's storyline - Arya moves away from the direwolf Nymeria again when her "dyer" friend is killed. After Lommy is wounded in the leg and has trouble walking, he is killed by one of Gregor Clegane's men, Raff the Sweetling. I will spoiler tag this speculation about events in TWoW:

 

I wonder whether Arya's actions after crossing paths with Raff the Sweetling again in an early chapter of TWoW represents a change in course that will lead to a reunion with her dire wolf? It could also be part of the fabric motif with Arya's sword, Needle. Revenge for Lommy the fabric worker is part of Arya's mission to restore the fabric of Westeros. People who dye fabric show up again in the same chapter where Arya sees Raff the Sweetling again.

Arya driving Nymeria away into the woods takes place in the Riverlands. Does Lommy's death take place at roughly the same location?

If there's a unifying theme to the three puns in this comment, it's rivers. I've been thinking and writing about a whet / wet pun pair, and remembering that Tyrion says that reading books is like using a whet stone to keep his mind sharp. It occurred to me that there are some significant uses of the word reed that are not directly related to the surname of Howland, Meera and Jojen, and that there is probably a pun motif around reading and reeds. For instance, Joffrey uses the sword Widow's Wail to destroy an old, rare and valuable book shortly before he loses the ability to breathe: "A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed."  (Notice, too, that Joffrey is referred to as a boy in the first clause, and a man in the second clause. Kill the boy and let the man be born?) So the major point is that Joffrey refuses to read (the valuable book) and then finds himself in need of a better "reed."

But I have one more delightful tangent that I have to point out: "Widow's Wail" is the name of a flower. A singer named Lou Reed sang a song called Vicious that includes the lyrics, "Vicious / You hit me with a flower / You do it every hour / Oh, baby you’re so vicious." GRRM, if I'm right that this was a deliberate allusion - or even if it wasn't deliberate but you just think it's an awesome coincidence - could you please have one of your minions send me a private message to let me know that I qualify for burial in the figurative Winterfell crypt of literary analysis? Thanks.

I should say, too, that House Reed's name is probably related to the pun as well. In a way, Jojen teaches Bran how to read his dreams, and the word "dream" has a lot of letters in common with read, anyway. Hmm. I wonder whether Lommy Greenhands and Greendreams are part of a related green motif, one version for Arya and another for Bran?

Joffrey's choked breathing is the best example of the reed as a symbol, but there are other mentions, of course. Just one early one from AGoT: "Tyrion led his men toward the riverbank. 'Look,' he shouted, pointing with his axe. 'The river.' A blanket of pale mist still clung to the surface of the water, the murky green current swirling past underneath. The shallows were muddy and choked with reeds. 'That river is ours. Whatever happens, keep close to the water. Never lose sight of it. Let no enemy come between us and our river. If they dirty our waters, hack off their cocks and feed them to the fishes.'"

So humans and rivers can both be choked, which brings me to my next possible pun pair: wolf and flow. I was reading about Harrenhal yesterday. The layout is largely described through Arya's eyes, so the dimensions of the ruined castle are compared to Winterfell and it seems as if we are seeing an exaggerated parody of Winterfell in some ways. There is an area within Harrenhal that is known as the Flowstone Yard which piqued my interest. The wiki says, "Flowstone Yard is where men-at-arms exercise and drill and squires clean arms and armor. It has a lumpy surface and is located near the Wailing Tower."

I'm only beginning to think about why or how wolf and flow might be used as opposites, but it might have to do with the direwolves biting and tearing off "arms" while the flow places seem to be associated with armaments: Tyrion defending the river, soldiers drilling and squires polishing armor, Rhaegar and Robert engaged in combat at the Ruby Ford. Of course, the stone at Harrenhal was melted by dragon fire, so the flowstone name may come from association with dragons, which might be the magical creature equivalent of a mirror image or opposite of direwolves.

Speaking of opposite names, I was also wondering this morning whether the girl Weasel, the disgusting man Weese and maybe even Raff the Sweetling could represent the opposite of sewing. Arya's mission of repairing the fabric of Westeros (hmm. West. hmm.) is put on hold while she is stuck with these characters in her arc.

Edited by Seams
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9 hours ago, Seams said:

dire / dyer

reed / read

wolf / flow

Some seriously excellent examples you've put forward here - my goodness :). I could write a whole essay on read/reed and though the other two are new to me, I can contribute some thoughts toward wolf and flow. 

Read/reed: for this I'd have to point to my Fisher Queen analysis and theory because it's directly related to the wordplay. In a nutshell, I believe the Fisher Queens were the embodiment of knowledge - it is from them that many things flow: knowledge, the weaving/sewing motif in relation to magic and to keeping kingdoms and states together, as well as to seeing in terms of foresight and prophecy. On account of available clues, I see the Crannogmen (and the Reeds) and the Dothraki/Dosh Khaleen as descendants and inheritors of this heritage. But even if you don't subscribe to that, read and reed makes sense just by considering Howland and Jojen Reed alone. Howland's quest to the Isle of Faces is such a clue. I doubt he goes there to admire nature. Through it's weirwoods, the isle is a source of knowledge - 'green knowledge' in particular, the knowledge of the trees, which of course ties into read as in knowledge and reed. Equally significant - Jojen provides the knowledge Bran needs about his warging ability - he is Bran's teacher - a true read/reed. Crannogmen weave huts which float on the swamp / the Reed's castle floats (like those of the F. Queens) and can be hidden from view (weaving light to cause illusion, another FQ trait). Weaving is thus also symbolic of illusionary magic and of weaving stories as Meera does when she tells the story of the KotLT. 

9 hours ago, Seams said:

For instance, Joffrey uses the sword Widow's Wail to destroy an old, rare and valuable book shortly before he loses the ability to breathe: "A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed."  (Notice, too, that Joffrey is referred to as a boy in the first clause, and a man in the second clause. Kill the boy and let the man be born?) So the major point is that Joffrey refuses to read (the valuable book) and then finds himself in need of a better "reed."

So nice a catch here especially because it is Widow's Wail that destroys knowledge. In terms of my personal theory, Widow's Wail relates to the Dosh Khaleen, widows of dead khals and wise women of the Dothraki. They are all that's left of the Fisher Queen culture that was destroyed at some point, together with their Silver Sea. The FQ destruction (signified by the Wail) goes hand in hand with the destruction of knowledge (as in the book). When the FQ's were destroyed, so was knowledge and wisdom as they propagated it. Indeed, Joff does find himself in need of a better 'reed' - he knows nothing our Joff and I agree - the boy needs to be killed for a smarter man to be born. Wonderful catch!

9 hours ago, Seams said:

But I have one more delightful tangent that I have to point out: "Widow's Wail" is the name of a flower. A singer named Lou Reed sang a song called Vicious that includes the lyrics, "Vicious / You hit me with a flower / You do it every hour / Oh, baby you’re so vicious." GRRM, if I'm right that this was a deliberate allusion - or even if it wasn't deliberate but you just think it's an awesome coincidence - could you please have one of your minions send me a private message to let me know that I qualify for burial in the figurative Winterfell crypt of literary analysis? Thanks.

This too is superb (I also have a song for you coming up :) ). I'm pretty sure this is intentional on GRRM's part, like we've reason to believe with the 'Song of Sixpence'. 'You hit me with a flower' relates directly to the flower/thorn wordplay where I envisage the flower as disguising the thorn as elaborated on in a previous post. 

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Hmm. I wonder whether Lommy Greenhands and Greendreams are part of a related green motif, one version for Arya and another for Bran?

Joffrey's choked breathing is the best example of the reed as a symbol, but there are other mentions, of course. Just one early one from AGoT: "Tyrion led his men toward the riverbank. 'Look,' he shouted, pointing with his axe. 'The river.' A blanket of pale mist still clung to the surface of the water, the murky green current swirling past underneath. The shallows were muddy and choked with reeds. 'That river is ours. Whatever happens, keep close to the water. Never lose sight of it. Let no enemy come between us and our river. If they dirty our waters, hack off their cocks and feed them to the fishes.'"

This is another example of a murky river and dirty waters associated with Tyrion. Remember he puts the drains of Lannisport back in order and he travels the Sorrows, another murky portion of river where we find the stone men and references to the Shrouded Lord. The swamps of the Neck where the Crannogmen live and around Moat Cailin also belong to this set, as does the Greenblood in Dorne, another murky river. All these murky waters are related to death (not being able to breathe/finding it difficult to suck air through a reed) and ulitmately to resurrection (wights) IMO. Notice the mists that lie over the river in the above passage, which correlate with the fog covering the river in the Sorrows as well as the implications of the Greenblood as in Bloodstone - a green stone with red inclusions (it is here that Ser Arys severed head drips blood into the Greenblood). I really see the references to Green here (throughout) as a reference to the consciousness of the weirwoods and the 'murky' a reference to the corrupted consciousness of the trees. 

9 hours ago, Seams said:

So humans and rivers can both be choked, which brings me to my next possible pun pair: wolf and flow. I was reading about Harrenhal yesterday. The layout is largely described through Arya's eyes, so the dimensions of the ruined castle are compared to Winterfell and it seems as if we are seeing an exaggerated parody of Winterfell in some ways. There is an area within Harrenhal that is known as the Flowstone Yard which piqued my interest. The wiki says, "Flowstone Yard is where men-at-arms exercise and drill and squires clean arms and armor. It has a lumpy surface and is located near the Wailing Tower."

Wolf and Flow - hehe - nice. This is what I can come up with: recall Arya is nicknamed Lumpyface/ Lumpyhead by Lommy Greenhands. Then think of Varamyr, known as Lump, his dead brother known as 'Bump'. I think this is all related. Perhaps also Lommy/Lumpy. Lumpyhead/face implies a lump on the face or head and I relate this to a 'lump' that denotes a third eye (presumably on the forehead) or a lump directly on the crown of the head as in the crown chakra. Both are entrances and exits for supernatural ability. We know Varamyr was a warg. He therefore had an open third eye. Arya is also a warg - hence Lumpyhead/face. The open third eye, or the ability to warg I again associate with my Fisher Queens, from whence I  believe this ability came as a result of their abuse. The addition of 'green' im Lommy Greenhands is again a reference to the diversion of activities in respect of knowledge transferred to the trees, previously not a feature of my favourite Queens but one changed and adapted after the migration of the FM to Westeros. 

So wolf and flow would be a reference to warging (the wolf bond) and to the bond between dragons and humans (flow -as in the flowing stone melted by dragonfire). That's how I would interpret that. 

10 hours ago, Seams said:

Speaking of opposite names, I was also wondering this morning whether the girl Weasel, the disgusting man Weese and maybe even Raff the Sweetling could represent the opposite of sewing. Arya's mission of repairing the fabric of Westeros (hmm. West. hmm.) is put on hold while she is stuck with these characters in her arc.

Just another comment on sewing, knitting and weaving. It does represent 'sewing' a kingdom together, but not that alone. As stated above, it represents illusion, magic and learning as well. In mythology, weaving is attributed to female goddesses only. Check out the Norns, Fates or the Moirai. Arya bears the Needle and her needle is a sword. We also know her stitches are crooked, she's not that good at sewing. I do not really see her as stitching a fabric together as in stitching a kingdom together. That's Sansa's domain (and Old Nan's). Sansa is the expert sewer here. Needle is really a sword - that which puts asunder. Needle as a sword can be compared to a scissors - a cutter - a cutter of life - and that's what Arya is. In terms of weaving, she severs the thread, ends the sewing, ends life. Weasel as an opposite to sewing would also fit in here. But GRRM may be double-playing us here because of course we need a needle to be able to sew at all so I guess Arya is also part of the 'sewing' process but she's perhaps part of sweeping away the old to make way for the new.

And while we're on the subject of weaving, I'm really thrilled to have finally found the connection to WEX. The wordplay here is Wex/tex (text). Text stems from texare, which is latin for weaving, as in weaving a story and that's exactly what Wex does. He cannot speak but he weaves a story by answering questions and drawing with a dagger. Note the dagger/needle association (that's what I see here). 

I also see a link between dire and dyer but need to think that through first. 

 

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On 22.5.2016 at 2:04 AM, YOVMO said:

Kingsmoot will make no practical difference regardless of outcome. It's a moot point.

 

It may be a moot point in the very end, yes. But before that, I don't think the Kingsmoot will be moot at all because it brings Euron to power and he has stated that he is the Storm. He is also very much associated with Silence

Kingsmoot can also be translated to King's Silence. And that's what Euron also personifies - Silence. I've argued elsewhere that Euron is not in the least bit interested in binding or riding real dragons. He wants the dragon queen but I would argue he's more interested in raising the dead and contributing to the Long Night itself. Apart from indications that he's gearing up to being a greenseer similar to Bran (dreams of flying in his childhood etc.), his ship is called Silence, the ship has a woman without a mouth as the figurehead, he's ripped out the tongues of his crew and the Dusky woman he gives to Victarion is silent as well, her tongue also gone. The embodiment of silence is Euron Greyjoy. And though this may be difficult to substantiate, I see the North and the white walkers as very associated with Silence as well. As long as the WW don't speak in their tongue of craking ice, they are silent, very silent indeed. A snow landscape is silent as well and the as a cardinal direction, north is associated with silence. 

 

So @Seams, the promised song.

 All this silence made me think of Simon and Garfunkel's song - Sound of Silence - and I feel the lyrics are most revealing:

Sound of Silence

It begins thus:

Hello darkness, my old friend 
I've come to talk with you again 
Because a vision softly creeping 
Left its seeds while I was sleeping 
And the vision that was planted in my brain 
Still remains 
Within the sound of silence

 

But check it out for yourself. Very Long Night, if you ask me. 

I'm not in GRRM's head but had I thought of such a story and been a fan of Simon and Garfunkel and this song, I would have found it absolutely perfect - and not only in terms of the lyrics.

The name Simon recalls Symeon Star-Eyes, to me a direct hint to the white walkers and wights (blue eyes).

Garfunkel also seems relevant if one considers the German translation of  'Gar' and 'Funkel'

Gar means well done or cooked (see this post for more on this). Funkel means twinkle (as in twinkling stars). Funke means a spark. 

 

 

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