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Reynes of Castamere 2.0?

Again, I'm discussing name parallels.

Rolph Spicer (Jeyne Westerling's maternal uncle) was recently rewarded the lands of Castamere and its old gold mine.  Castamere was the seat of the now-extinct House Reyne.  

The names of the Westerling children are very similar to some players involved in the Tarbeck-Reyne Revolt.

Jeyne's oldest brother is Raynald, which is only one letter different from Reynald (ie Reynald Reyne).  

Jeyne is very similar to Reyne, and she was formerly queen.  Reine (a homophone of Reyne) is the French word for queen.

Jeyne's youngest sister's name is Eleyna, which is very similar to Ellyn (ie Ellyn Tarbeck).  

My thoughts on this possible parallel is that it would be an INVERSE of Rains of Castamere, not a repetition in it.  House Westerling will play a role in House Lannister's downfall (which seems impending) and will be (symbolically at least) Reyne's revenge by proxy. 

Edited by Isobel Harper
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3 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Reynes of Castamere 2.0?

Again, I'm discussing name parallels.

Rolph Spicer (Jeyne Westerling's maternal uncle) was recently rewarded the lands of Castamere and its old gold mine.  Castamere was the seat of the now-extinct House Reyne.  

The names of the Westerling children are very similar to some players involved in the Tarbeck-Reyne Revolt.

Jeyne's oldest brother is Raynald, which is only one letter different from Reynald (ie Reynald Reyne).  

Jeyne is very similar to Reyne, and she was formerly queen.  Reine (a homophone of Reyne) is the French word for queen.

Jeyne's youngest sister's name is Eleyna, which is very similar to Ellyn (ie Ellyn Tarbeck).  

My thoughts on this possible parallel is that it would be an INVERSE of Rains of Castamere, not a repetition in it.  House Westerling will play a role in House Lannister's downfall (which seems impending) and will be (symbolically at least) Reyne's revenge by proxy. 

The Reynes of Castamere = Reenacts myth Erase Foe

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6 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Question: If green sea = green see (a connection made in the Patchface/nennymoans thread), then could sea-green be connected to greenseeing?

Only connection I can find is Addam of Hull (a Velaryon bastard) visiting the Gods Eye for council during the DotD.

:blink: It was right before our eyes the whole time :bang:

It could be a coincidence, but there are a ton of descriptors that refer to the north above the wall and the wall itself as being a green sea, waterlike, waves and water motion, and there is a part where Bowen Marsh refers to the wildlings as "lost ships", etc.

Bran is "under the sea" while greenseeing as we type and read!

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17 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

From Quote: "Alysane is an echo of the name Alyson which derives its name from the Alyssum flower. It is Greek for "not insane". 'a' is the 'not' and 'lys' comes from 'lyc' which is like "having rabies, madness' which that meaning is derived from the word Lykos "wolf'."

 

Or perhaps "not a wolf" or "anti-wolf?"  We discussed earlier of the possibility of "Sansa" and "Alayne" being a sort of anagram/portmanteau if "Alysanne."  Sansa lost Lady and is evolving (imo) into a bat/Whent and Alayne is a Titan/Titan's daughter.  Queen Alysanne was, per some theorists, anti-warg and/or anti-direwolves.  These theorists conclude that Queen Alysanne moved the NW headquarters from the Nightford to Castle Black in order to cease the migration of direwolves into The North, thereby inhibiting the Starks warging ability. 

 

I like that interpretation. And you are right while Alysanne was remembered for being a Good Queen her actions were devastating to the world as a whole. She weakened the magical power of the North which will probably facilitate the Others breaking down The Wall. 

The Whents; my crazy tinfoil theory that they have drops of dragon blood through the Lothstons. 

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16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

:blink: It was right before our eyes the whole time :bang:

It could be a coincidence, but there are a ton of descriptors that refer to the north above the wall and the wall itself as being a green sea, waterlike, waves and water motion, and there is a part where Bowen Marsh refers to the wildlings as "lost ships", etc.

Bran is "under the sea" while greenseeing as we type and read!

 Kudos to all of you on the Patchface/nennymoans thread for figuring out Bran in the weirwood net as being "under the sea."  I've recently become aware that the Velaryons might be a sort of Lord of the Underworld like the Starks (many thanks to sweetsunray for her Chthonic thread, her analysis of the Starks, and the many sweet ideas it's given me) and I feel that the duality of the Underworld - land or sea - ties into this.  Stark/land/Others and Velaryons/water/...Squishers?

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26 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 Kudos to all of you on the Patchface/nennymoans thread for figuring out Bran in the weirwood net as being "under the sea."  I've recently become aware that the Velaryons might be a sort of Lord of the Underworld like the Starks (many thanks to sweetsunray for her Chthonic thread, her analysis of the Starks, and the many sweet ideas it's given me) and I feel that the duality of the Underworld - land or sea - ties into this.  Stark/land/Others and Velaryons/water/...Squishers?

The Velaryons are dragon people who took a driftwood throne from fish people (the Merling King according to legend), and now their sigil is a dragon-like seahorse. To me those are all clues about the Ironborn having an ancestry from the original dragonlords from Asshai / the Great Empire of the Dawn conquering the Iron Islands and taking a wooden chair (Nagga's fangs which made the Grey King's throne being petrified weirwood) from the fish people that lived there. The result is a merger of dragon people and fish people, which is one layer of meaning of the myth of the sea dragon, IMO. Furthermore, I believe I have established a plausible theory about the Grey King being some sort of greenseer, sitting on a weirwood throne, so we have the idea of a greenseer being associated with fish people / being drowned. We've been talking about that I the Nennymoan thread as well. 

ETA: Addam Velaryon makes my points nicely. He rides a dragon named Seasmoke, a grey dragon associated with the sea - an allusion to the Grey King, who as I have suggested is both a greenseer and a dragon blooded person who has something to do with drowning or water magic. He goes to the Gods Eye, consulted with Green Men, enhancing his connection to greenseers. So, the grey color of the dragon, the Seamoke name, the Velaryon sigil (dragon that becomes a seahorse) and the Velaryon story about taking the throne of the Merling King all connect Addam to aquatic ideas, people and magic. He's a dragon rider, obviously, giving us the idea of a dragon blooded person. And he's connected to greenseers via his trip to the Gods Eye and the potential double meanings of sea and see.

Also Addam used to be Addam of Hull, connecting him with boats. I believe that the bones of the sea dragon are not only weirwood, but actually the flipped over ribbing of a boat made with weirwood. So that's one more sea dragon idea. I guarantee if we look at Addam's scenes in TPATQ we will find metaphors about these ideas in the actual text. I've looked a bit, and TPATQ is definitely full of metaphors, but I wasn't looking for these things. Of course Addam's dad is the Sea Snake Corlys Velaryon, another sea dragon idea. I'm definitely going to have to include the Velaryons in a subsequent episode.  

FWIW smoke can also be used as a medium to see the future. Seasmoke as a concept makes me think of a meteor falling into the sea, which is my primary explanation of the sea dragon which drowns islands myth. 

Edited by LmL
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3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I like that interpretation. And you are right while Alysanne was remembered for being a Good Queen her actions were devastating to the world as a whole. She weakened the magical power of the North which will probably facilitate the Others breaking down The Wall. 

The Whents; my crazy tinfoil theory that they have drops of dragon blood through the Lothstons.

My own personal theory is that Lothston and Whent (who I also feel are related to one another) are related to House Qoherys.  It's commonly thought that the Curse of Harrenhal originated from House Hoare.  But the last member of that house was Harren the Red... Red Harren/red herring.

Quentyn Qoherys was the last member of House Qoherys to hold Harrenhal.  He died bleeding to death in the castle's godswood after being castrated.  Now, if someone were to put a curse on any other family to hold Harrenhal, wouldn't it be him?  I believe Lothston and Whent have survived the Curse (via the female line) because they are descended from House Qoherys in the female line. 

As for Lothston having Targaryen blood via Aegon the Unworthy, it's possible but I don't think it's significant.  I believe that the dragon-riding gene(s) is linked to the X-Chromosome.  Aegon the Unworthy's X-Chromosome came from his mother.  His mother wasn't a Targaryen; she was a Lyseni noblewoman and most likely had no dragon gene(s).

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10 minutes ago, LmL said:

The Velaryons are dragon people who took a driftwood throne from fish people (the Merling King according to legend), and now their sigil is a dragon-like seahorse. To me those are all clues about the Ironborn having an ancestry from the original dragonlords from Asshai / the Great Empire of the Dawn conquering the Iron Islands and taking a wooden chair (Nagga's fangs which made the Grey King's throne being petrified weirwood) from the fish people that lived there. The result is a merger of dragon people and fish people, which is one layer of meaning of the myth of the sea dragon, IMO. Furthermore, I believe I have established a plausible theory about the Grey King being some sort of greenseer, sitting on a weirwood throne, so we have the idea of a greenseer being associated with fish people / being drowned. We've been talking about that I the Nennymoan thread as well. 

I've been reading through the Nennymoans thread, but haven't had a chance to reply. 

So you think Velaryon is a clue, but not necessarily significant in itself with regard to greenseeing or figures of the Underworld?

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28 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I've been reading through the Nennymoans thread, but haven't had a chance to reply. 

So you think Velaryon is a clue, but not necessarily significant in itself with regard to greenseeing or figures of the Underworld?

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly. Do I think House Velryon itself is important? No, not really, I would interpret all of their symbolism and actions as clues about other things. But those others things absolutely do include free seeing ideas, that's exactly what I am suggested. All of the underworld ideas have to do with resurrection and coming from death, and that's what is going on when greenseers transform themselves through ice or fire magic I believe. 

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2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

 

 

2 hours ago, LmL said:

 

You are two of my favorite theorists but these comments don't have much or anything to do with puns or wordplay. I am trying to keep a focus on this thread, so could you take the dialogue back to Patchface/Nennymoans or, since you now seem to be talking about Velaryons and Whents, maybe start a new thread for yourselves? Thanks.

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9 minutes ago, Seams said:

 

You are two of my favorite theorists but these comments don't have much or anything to do with puns or wordplay. I am trying to keep a focus on this thread, so could you take the dialogue back to Patchface/Nennymoans or, since you now seem to be talking about Velaryons and Whents, maybe start a new thread for yourselves? Thanks.

Sure thing man, I thought we were riffing on the green sea / greenseer thing. It's kind of been bleeding over on several threads, and I think most of us are familiar with your puns and wordplay thread here so some crossover is natural. But sure, I guess you want the thread to stick to identifying the puns and not following out any one idea?

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2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Kudos to all of you on the Patchface/nennymoans thread for figuring out Bran in the weirwood net as being "under the sea."

Thank you!

 

Hi @Seams:

the pun I've recently identified is green sea/green see/greensee; variation deep (green) sea/deep (green) see(-r,-ing)

I think it ties in with some other puns upthread:

whet/wet (mind needs a whetstone)...water used in quenching and sharpening 'swords' (relates to our Theon/Ice thread)

reed/Reed/read (seaweed is a reed)

flow/wolf (flowstone/whetstone/bloodstone)

crowning/drowning

Summerhall/Winterfell/Summerfall/Winterhell (inversions, subversions)

 

I love your 'wise red leaves'/'silver seaweed' anagram, by the way -- one of your best!

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2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I love your 'wise red leaves'/'silver seaweed' anagram, by the way -- one of your best!

I myself have a hard time with this, and you know I am not a sceptic. I follow the similar sounding words and different spellings for the same sound (see/ sea), but anagrams... yeah I don't know, seems pretty far out. I don't really see a connection between silver seaweed and red weirwood leaves, what was that supposed to be again? 

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7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

the pun I've recently identified is green sea/green see/greensee; variation deep (green) sea/deep (green) see(-r,-ing)

Puns are fine here, obviously. I will go look at the see / sea discussion on the other thread. I read through the other posts and they are now taking off in a new direction. I am sure it would be worth starting a new thread to pursue those ideas.

6 minutes ago, LmL said:

I myself have a hard time with this, and you know I am not a sceptic. I follow the similar sounding words and different spellings for the same sound (see/ sea), but anagrams... yeah I don't know, seems pretty far out. I don't really see a connection between silver seaweed and red weirwood leaves, what was that supposed to be again? 

I am hesitant to post ideas about anagrams, especially when they start to get into longer phrases. I know that you can start to make what you want to see instead of what the author intends. But I have a strong orientation toward words and can't help myself sometimes.

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Just now, Seams said:

Puns are fine here, obviously. I will go look at the see / sea discussion on the other thread. I read through the other posts and they are now taking off in a new direction. I am sure it would be worth starting a new thread to pursue those ideas.

I am hesitant to post ideas about anagrams, especially when they start to get into longer phrases. I know that you can start to make what you want to see instead of what the author intends. But I have a strong orientation toward words and can't help myself sometimes.

Well, I definitely think it's healthy to explore an idea even if it seams far fetched. :) I do think Martin is immensely clever and that he clearly takes advantage of the English language in many clever ways, so I am not set against the idea of anagrams... just seems like a whole 'nother level of cryptic. What is your best example of an anagram which has an obvious logical correlation?

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26 minutes ago, LmL said:

I myself have a hard time with this, and you know I am not a sceptic. I follow the similar sounding words and different spellings for the same sound (see/ sea), but anagrams... yeah I don't know, seems pretty far out. I don't really see a connection between silver seaweed and red weirwood leaves, what was that supposed to be again? 

I also initially had a hard time with it, but the more I learn about how GRRM thinks, the more I think he's a bit of a cyvasse or scrabble player -- as I once said to @Feather Crystal, his mind works in 'grand crystal geometries.'

That sort of thing also doesn't come naturally to me, but that's how GRRM amuses himself it seems/seams! :P

@Seams pointed out on the 'nennymoan' thread that the 'silver seaweed' in question from Patchface's riddle 'the merwives weave gowns of silver seaweed' could be an anagram for 'wise red leaves.'  'Weaving' is GRRM's allusion to magic (weaving spells, magic woven into the Wall, etc.), especially 'green' magic, namely that of the Children, the crannogpeople, the greenseers (even the Gipps wife's gift to Huzor Amai was a 'wicker shield'...wicker is woven tree material, remember Mance's funeral pyre made of woven weirwood).  The magic is conferred by the trees -- which in my paradigm are 'underwater' -- so 'wise red leaves' aka 'silver seaweed' (silver additionally has a magical connotation, specifically alluding to the greenseer duality of which we've been speaking of late, namely the capacity to harm as well as heal).  

PM me if you'd like to discuss further -- or we can post on the other thread.

Edited by ravenous reader
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@Seams I am always trying to simultaneously identify symbolism and also figure out what it means for the story. For example, the green sea / greenseer wordplay is fairly compelling, but until we can figure out what the POINT is - what the sea has to do with greenseers, what Deep Ones have to do with greenseers, etc, it's only interesting wordplay. I tend to think martin doesn't just do wordplay with purpose - I'm sure there is a deeper truth behind the sea / seer thing having to do with an important part of the story, but I can't figure out exactly what. 

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1 minute ago, LmL said:

I'm sure there is a deeper truth behind the sea / seer thing having to do with an important part of the story, but I can't figure out exactly what. 

Precisely!

I can see 'that' he's doing it -- but can't say why he's chosen that trope, beyond alluding to a chthonic psychic journey. Additionally, I'm sure there's also an as yet unidentified 'historical' pattern playing out.  

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