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11 minutes ago, LmL said:

What is your best example of an anagram which has an obvious logical correlation?

deserters / red trees. You will find it somewhere a few pages ago in this thread. I think it has to do with Ned Stark's determination to behead deserters - he is actually making a blood sacrifice to the red trees.

9 minutes ago, LmL said:

@Seams I am always trying to simultaneously identify symbolism and also figure out what it means for the story. 

It's my understanding that there is no charge for starting a new thread. I did so when I realized that the seams / seems pun had opened a new discussion about physical locations in Westeros that might function as connecting points between the mainstream and magical worlds. I don't mean to deprive you of your right to repeat your ideas, I just hope you will respect the focus of this thread and refrain from hijacking it with discussions of genealogy, dragons and meteors. Those are great topics and you have many followers on the threads where you have introduced them, but they don't belong on this thread, please.

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3 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly. Do I think House Velryon itself is important? No, not really, I would interpret all of their symbolism and actions as clues about other things. But those others things absolutely do include free seeing ideas, that's exactly what I am suggested. All of the underworld ideas have to do with resurrection and coming from death, and that's what is going on when greenseers transform themselves through ice or fire magic I believe. 

This answered my question.  Sorry for being unclear. 

And so sorry for going too off topic.  Yes,  seagreen/green sea/greensee(ing) could be a potential pun in the story, but my thoughts were steering more towards House Velaryon than the pun.

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Asshai:

Everyone pronounces this as a-shy. If you move the stress from the 'a' to the double 's' you get 'as high'.....House Arryn's motto is "As high as honor" could be related?

Asshai is also closely pronounced as asahi (a-sigh), the Japanese word for 'sunrise'. We in the fandom suspect Asshai to be the original location of the Great Empire of the Dawn, among other things Japan is often called "The Land of the Rising Sun" and was known as the Empire of the Sun and was classically known as the "Autumn Harbor", "Dragonfly Island", "A Favorable Wind", "Country of Lush Ears (of rice)" and "Country Amidst Reed Plain(s)". Also ashi is also the word for 'reed'. 

Among other things, the Emperors of Japan are believed to be descended from the sun-goddess Amaterasu (she who shines in heaven) which is rather reminiscent of the Maiden-made-of-light. She also procreated with her brother the Storm God and he gave her a sword that came from the tail of an eight headed giant snake, he killed to save a maiden...... 

Edited by Pain killer Jane
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26 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Asshai:

Everyone pronounces this as a-shy. If you move the stress from the 'a' to the double 's' you get 'as high'.....House Arryn's motto is "As high as honor" could be related?

Asshai is also closely pronounced as asahi (a-sigh), the Japanese word for 'sunrise'. We in the fandom suspect Asshai to be the original location of the Great Empire of the Dawn, among other things Japan is often called "The Land of the Rising Sun" and was known as the Empire of the Sun and was classically known as the "Autumn Harbor", "Dragonfly Island", "A Favorable Wind", "Country of Lush Ears (of rice)" and "Country Amidst Reed Plain(s)". Also ashi is also the word for 'reed'. 

Among other things, the Emperors of Japan are believed to be descended from the sun-goddess Amaterasu (she who shines in heaven) which is rather reminiscent of the Maiden-made-of-light. She also procreated with her brother the Storm God and he gave her a sword that came from the tail of an eight headed giant snake, he killed to save a maiden...... 

Perhaps there's a connection between the Shy Maid and Asshai.  A Shy Maid/Asshai Maid?

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2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Perhaps there's a connection between the Shy Maid and Asshai.  A Shy Maid/Asshai Maid?

Nice Catch! Absolutely! The physical manifestation of shyness is hiding ones face and the Maiden-made-of-Light turned her back on the world so it can be said that she is hid her face.  

Bwt, if we go with the a-sigh pronunciation, the word 'sigh' comes from the old English word Sican which is also the name for a Peruvian culture and means 'temple of the moon'. 

Edit: and then of course a sigh is an exhalation of air from a person. 

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"By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth." -Psalm 33:6

 

Edited by Pain killer Jane
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On 9/25/2016 at 0:36 PM, Isobel Harper said:

My own personal theory is that Lothston and Whent (who I also feel are related to one another) are related to House Qoherys.  It's commonly thought that the Curse of Harrenhal originated from House Hoare.  But the last member of that house was Harren the Red... Red Harren/red herring.

Quentyn Qoherys was the last member of House Qoherys to hold Harrenhal.  He died bleeding to death in the castle's godswood after being castrated.  Now, if someone were to put a curse on any other family to hold Harrenhal, wouldn't it be him?  I believe Lothston and Whent have survived the Curse (via the female line) because they are descended from House Qoherys in the female line. 

As for Lothston having Targaryen blood via Aegon the Unworthy, it's possible but I don't think it's significant.  I believe that the dragon-riding gene(s) is linked to the X-Chromosome.  Aegon the Unworthy's X-Chromosome came from his mother.  His mother wasn't a Targaryen; she was a Lyseni noblewoman and most likely had no dragon gene(s).

Its definitely possible especially since the Qoherys' were Valyrian in descendant, so it wouldn't be odd that a magic wielding person would appear in their lineage. But Qoherys is similar to Qohor (the Valyrian town) and all of their magic and secrecy would also support this line of thinking. And we know for a fact that Qohor does know at least some of the secrets of Valyrian Steel. So I will concede to that. But I also can't help that they are scapegoats like in sweetsunray's explanation in her bear essay. I like Red Harren/red herring but I think it is a finger pointing at Rose of Red Lake and House Crane's rumors of skin changing cranes/Heron. Not to mention that Cranes are symbols of immortality through the use of their bone marrow but that is a completely different topic.

Larra was Lysene and noble and Lys is known for the expert breeding of bedslaves to preserve Valyrian traits. If they are strict with their breeding programs for slaves than why wouldn't the nobles also be strict with their own breeding? We have Princess Saera Targaryen going to Lys (she was a dragon rider) and Prince Aerion Brightflame as well (many believe that fAegon is descended from him). Saera was a daughter of the sitting king of Westeros, she would have been prized for her blood like Viserys I was when he was wed to Larra. 

Plus House Rogare's story is vaguely reminiscent of what is happening right now with Illaryio/Varys and fAegon combined with the Iron Bank shadiness. 

I know it seems far fetched the connection between Saera Targ and Larra Rogare but you have Sarra (Illaryio's Lyseni bedslave wife whose hands he keeps in a box which is similar to Argellac's respond to Aegon I's suggestion that Argellac's daughter should marry a known bastard brother of Aegon). And then House Rogare's fall at the hands of the other Lysene nobles with Larra's Brother Moredo raising an army to conqueror Lys.

Parallels I know do not always correlate but it is worth speculating. 

 

Edited by Pain killer Jane
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So I guess I should put this here unless someone hasn't said it earlier.

Qoherys/ Co-heiress (I wonder what this is referring to)

Red Herran (descendant through the female line)/ Heron, a bird that looks like a crane and we have Rose of the Red Lake whose descendants, House Crane, specifically females can skinchange cranes. 

Ygritte sounds like Egret, a type of Heron that comes from a french word that means 'silver heron' and brush and Ygritte has red hair. 

 

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Meera Reed

mira in spanish is look! and in Japanese it is the Katakana spelling of the word mirror because of the English pronunciation.

Mirai is future and Mite is the imperative to look while Me is eye.   

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On 10/1/2016 at 2:16 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

 

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Larra was Lysene and noble and Lys is known for the expert breeding of bedslaves to preserve Valyrian traits. If they are strict with their breeding programs for slaves than why wouldn't the nobles also be strict with their own breeding? 

There might be some distant Targaryen blood within some Lyseni prostitutes, but I doubt the nobility has interbred with these descendants.  Valyrian features and the dragon-riding trait aren't necessarily connected.  (Long story short, I think the Valyrian fair traits/albinism genes assist in dragon-bonding traits being expressed, but those genes don't control bonding by themselves.)  Bloodline appears to matter SOME to Free City nobility.  Remember that Illyrio was shunned from Pentoshi nobility after he married Saera.  And in Volantis, only families of Valyrian descent can live behind the Black Walls. 

But regarding, Saera/Serra, many take their similar names to mean a relation between the two. 

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Plus House Rogare's story is vaguely reminiscent of what is happening right now with Illaryio/Varys and fAegon combined with the Iron Bank shadiness. 

Some Lyseni were attempting to return Viserys II for a price.  (Alyn Velaryon and the Rogares helped prevent this from happening.) It's unclear exactly what these Lyseni had planned.  But what almost happened to Viserys II is essentially what's happening to Aegon VI: Illyrio and Varys up to their old tricks, stealing something valuable and selling it back for a price. 

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Qoherys/ Co-heiress (I wonder what this is referring to)

Very interesting!  We made the hair/heir connection up-thread.  This could tie into that.  Both Sansa and Danelle Lothston have red hair.  Sansa could potentially be Danelle's heir.  ETA: hair/heir/QoHERys/HEIRess

Edited by Isobel Harper
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Lothston/lodestone:  Lodestone is a stone that attracts iron, i.e a magnet.  The term can also be used symbolically to mean a thing that attracts attention/a focal point.  Harrenhal is literally and symbolically a focal point in the story.  It's smack dab in the middle of Westeros, and it's also a place where many characters intersect and effect each other's story.  Arya reunites with Jaqen here, who encourages her to join the FM.  Jaime and Brienne are brought here, where Jaime saves Brienne from the bear and they begin to learn to trust each other.  Harrenhal is one of LF's main ambitions, if not THE ultimate end goal for him - this could explain his lust for Cat/Sansa, the red-headed Whent/Lothston(/Qoherys?) heiresses; they could be immune to The Curse.  And last but not least, let's not forget about the Tourney at Harrenhal.  

The only place in the story where more people's paths cross is at the Inn of the Crossroads.  Speaking of crossroads, Whent is a surname given to someone who lives on a crossroads. http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Went

(Side note: Went/Whent/Wend are variations of this surname.   I wonder if there is some sort of connection between the Whents and Wendish Town?)

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Not sure where to put this find, if indeed it is significant.  And if it is significant, I'm not entirely sure what it could mean. 

Copper + Tin = Bronze

Bronze is an important metal to the First Men.  The Thenns (First Men wildlings) mine copper and tin to make Bronze armor and weapons, House Royce wears Bronze armor carved with runes, and Robb's crown is made of bronze, also carved with runes.  That is, Bronze is culturally significant to the First Men.

Except for Arya, the Stark children have Tully-red hair.  But of all these children, only Sansa's is described as "copper."

Now tin... Here are all the mentions of tin in the series: https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=tin&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq

Tin is not a particular valuable metal.  Needle is mocked for being "just tin" by one of the children in Yoren's party leaving KL.  And Theon laments that the Ironborn only have "iron, lead, and tin to mine.  No wonder they still take up raiding" (paraphrase).

Other mentions of tin involve maesters and fools dressed as knights.  Both Pycelle and Aemon describe tin (when describing the metals in their chain) as a base metal, but no less important than gold.  "Gold is a lord, steel is a knight,  but two links don't make a chain.  There are other "metals" (ie people) that a maester chain has, which symbolize the people of the realm a maester must serve."  (To summarize, terribly I'm sure.)

Tin, as stated before, is also worn by fools dressed as knights.  Dontos, Patchface, and Renly's fool are all mentioned as wearing tin armor.  Fools dressed as knights...  Reminds you of Florian the Fool, no?  And who do we associate with Florian the Fool?  Sansa.  

So, we have Sansa (copper) and "Florian" (tin) = ??? (bronze)

Now, one could predict that this alludes to Sansa's ultimate suitor/husband.  Tin is described as "silvery white" or "grey," so if we look solely at hair color,  perhaps someone Valyrian.  Aegon, Aurane Waters, or potentially anyone really with Valyrian features.

I'm tentative to say, however, that this is not the case.

BASE/baseborn/base metal

I think the "tin" is more symbolic than literal.  Sansa is hiding as "Alayne," a baseborn girl from Gulltown.  Pycelle (or Aemon?) made the connection for us that metals = people.  Sansa, as Alayne, has evolved into a new sort of metal ("to porcelain, to ivory, to steel") albeit a BASE metal.  Sansa lost her wolf, losing part of her connection to the First Men, but she might regain that back someway by being Alayne.  

I think Sansa + Alayne = Bronze ties into the Alysanne portmanteau that we discussed earlier.  Back then, we discussed her taking knowledge gained while as Sansa and Alayne as using it to turn into some kind of Good Queen Alysanne 2.0.

As for Florian = tin, Alayne is learning to be her own hero, albeit slowly.  Under Alayne, Sansa will learn to be a player, not a pawn, in her own destiny.  

Edited by Isobel Harper
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First, I want say to the OP this is an amazing thread which lead to several interesting observations.

Just a little addition (but I think it is already said in some other threads).

Bran means in Welsh raven. It also refers to Bran the Blessed, the son of Llyr, the god of the sea (someone earlier in this thread made the connection between the Stark children, wolf and flow; Bran is of course also the son of Cat). Bran the Blessed was king of Britain.

Brandon can be also seen as a variant of the Irish name Brendan/Bréannain which is derived from the Welsh word meaning prince.

Further is Brandon also a surname which was derived from a place name meaning "hill covered with broom". Broom is a short of shrub. There is a popular theory that the name of the House Plantagenet mayhave been derived from the common broom which was then known as "Planta Genista". It was used by some English kings as a royal emblem. The war of the Roses, the struggle between two cadet branches of the House Plantagenet, was a source of inspiration for GRRM.

The one character in the books who was compated to Winter-fell, is of course Bran: The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remainded, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either."

In the Bran's Powers Reread Thread we did speak about the possible meanings of fell. @ravenous reader and @Wizz-The-Smith (that stupid tag doesn't want to work) refer actually to another thread by @Seams. (the Seams one I think). And during our discussion @ravenous reader and @Wizz-The-Smith said that "fell" also meant hill and that Winterfell is built on a hill (The builders had not even levelled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell.  There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery) And the caste is of course compared to tree.

So Brandon is derived from a place name which means hill covered with broom, a plant. And Winterfell is a place/a castle on a (hollow) hill resembling a tree.

---

You have also Brynden Rivers - whose nickname is Bloodraven. You can say his name is some sort of bastard version of the name Brandon: the Riverlands adapted this (typical northern?) name to something more common to their dialect, ... Brynden is the son of a king. But because he is a bastard, he can never truly become completely a prince (=Brandon).

Brynden Rivers lives in a hollow hill and sits on a throne of weirwood roots.

 

(link to Wizz's post)

 

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 The Seven Swords was the largest inn in town, a four-story structure that towered over its neighbors, and the double doors on the house across the way were painted gorgeously. They showed a castle in an autumn wood, the trees done up in shades of gold and russet. Ivy crawled up the trunks of ancient oaks, and even the acorns had been done with loving care. When Brienne peered more closely, she saw creatures in the foliage: a sly red fox, two sparrows on a branch, and behind those leaves the shadow of a boar.

I forget if we discussed this already...

Could this be a play on the saying "killing two birds with one stone?" 

The stone could represent Alayne Stone; the two birds, Sweetrobin and HtH; the fox, LF; the boar, death (whether literal or symbolic).

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pain / Payne / pain (French for "bread")

Gendry / green dye

thinking / thin king

In the course of the direwolf re-read, I came across references to pain that seemed as if they might fit into a set of wordplay-linked symbols. We have already discussed in this thread the likelihood that GRRM uses English/German puns (eyes / Ice / Ei / Eisen and gift / Gift) as well as English/French puns (poison / poisson and Jaime / J'aime).

The pain wordplay seems to focus on Gendry, who is described as looking pained after discussion of hunting wild boar. I interpreted this as allusion to the death of the father Gendry never knew, King Robert, and as a symbolic death for Gendry himself. Later in the chapter, Lommy Greenhands dies, perhaps underscoring the symbolic death of Gendry with a green dye / Gendry pun. Of course, a symbolic death just clears the way for a rebirth for Gendry as he and his surviving companions enter Harrenhal.

It occurred to me that pain could be wordplay on the surname of Ser Ilyn Payne, the King's Justice, especially if you accept the symbolic death notion. Once I recognized the possible pun, it crossed my mind that there could be a third layer of meaning. The baker named Hot Pie is part of Gendry's group, and the french word for bread is also pain.

To better understand the meaning GRRM intends for this wordplay, I think we need to look at additional examples of pain and bread and Ser Ilyn (or execution and death in general). Ser Ilyn's sword is used to cut the pie crust at Joffrey's wedding feast. People eat food out of trenchers - bowls carved out of loaves of bread. (Theon's trencher is cut open and the fish stew inside gets on his clothes during the raucous feast where he learns that "Esgred" is really his sister, Asha.) Of course, bread is often a key component in establishing the guest/host relationship of guest right.

Of course, Podrick Payne is present when both Tyrion and Brienne experience excruciating pain and symbolic death.

If you can think of additional examples linking pain / Payne and bread, or if you think you understand why GRRM wants to link these words in our minds, please share your insights.

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Bread in the broader sense of food and nourishment could be at issue also. Don't forget that Pod is usually described as undernourished: too thin and short for his age. He looks (and behaves) very much a child compared to Sansa who is of an age with him.

Pod was sentenced to death for sharing food belonging to Tywin with other soldiers, but his name saved him (Payne / paine / bread)

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On 10/16/2016 at 6:00 PM, Seams said:

pain / Payne / pain (French for "bread")

To that trio, you might add 'pay'-ne in the sense of having to pay for ones actions karmically, 'paying the piper' etc., epitomised rather ironically by Ilyn Payne himself, who though now the King's Justice was unable to escape the justice of a former king, having forfeited his tongue in exchange for the indiscretion of having bragged about Tywin effectively ruling the kingdom instead of Aerys, showing GRRM's satisfyingly grim conclusion that no one, not even 'justice' itself, eludes justice ultimately, and that even those in positions of power have not attained, nor do they retain, their status with impunity -- no matter how unjust the world might seem!  GRRM is grim (that's another pun, btw...:)) but not nihilistic.  

Reduced to mutism and unable to enjoy his food any longer (the tongue confers sensory taste as well as motor function), now Payne's sword does the talking, executing precious sentences, 'tasting' the blood instead of him -- a formidable power bought at the cost of his own speech, his own sentence, his own blood, his own appetite (the specter at the feast cannot enjoy the feast at which he feasts)!  Indeed, as we've seen played out repeatedly, 'swords' are forged in blood and fire at considerable personal cost (reflecting this symbolism, Ilyn's tongue was probably removed with hot pincers): 

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII

"True." Joffrey lifted his voice. "Ser Ilyn, your sword!"

From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King's Justice stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he'd lost his tongue. He would have been a different man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his back.

Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.

Valar dohaeris Valar morghulies.  All men must pay their due, pay homage, and pay the ferryman.  Ser Ilyn as well as King Joffrey -- neither the servant nor indeed the 'master' is exempt from servitude.  Thus, in the act of kneeling before Joffrey and offering him the 'silver bright with runes,' Joffrey is also symbolically forced to his knees to account for himself.  This 'offer' is an 'offer he can't refuse.'  I see the headsman as a kind of 'debt collector or enforcer' with the runes as glittering 'promissory notes' reflecting silver's dualism, namely the harmful and helpful aspects of anyone's actions which are now tallied and weighed, and presented to Joffrey (and by extension to his family and lineage) from whom payment is now demanded (accordingly, the coin placed in the mouth of the dead to pay Charon the ferryman of the underworld, following classical mythological beliefs, was usually a silver obol).  I also think the 'prince that was promised' is a debt owing on some kind of pact made in the past, and that this debt involves the pending sacrifice of a person, considering how in ASOIAF debts are so frequently cashed in using the currency of blood, for example in the practice of holding 'wards' (which is a kind of' 'rune') as hostages in order to guarantee an agreement .  

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From wikipedia:

In fact, the etymology of 'pain' itself reveals this sense of 'blood payment':

from Old French and Anglo-Norman peine, paine, from Latin poena ‎(“punishment, pain”), from Ancient Greek ποινή ‎(poinḗ,“bloodmoney, weregild, fine, price paid, penalty”)

Additionally, this demonstrates what is emerging as GRRM's central message -- also grim yet not without its 'silver lining' -- of any human achievement only coming at the price of a sacrifice, of both oneself and others -- 'only death pays for life,' etc. -- the crucial factor being whether that sacrifice is made of or for another.  There is a qualitative and quantitative difference for GRRM in whether someone forcibly demands a sacrifice of someone else, i.e. violently extracting payment or profit, or makes a voluntary sacrifice of him or herself.  As an example of the former and latter respectively, we have Cersei protecting herself and her brood by viciously harming others such as Bran; vs. Ned attempting to protect Cersei and her children as well as Sansa and Arya by risking, ultimately forfeiting, his life and honor.  In contrast to Cersei's merciless madness, 'the madness of mercy' advocated by Ned may not be that 'mad' when all is said and done, considering it has far-reaching consequences down the line, at least in GRRM's cynically romantic view.  Hence, Cersei's line is dying out, while Ned's children are consolidating their power and regrouping as the saga reaches its denouement. 

This philosophy of the virtue of self-sacrifice is also reflected in the faceless men ethos of those requesting the 'boon' or 'gift' of an assassination having to reciprocally pay the ultimate price by giving up a substantial portion of that they most hold dear, in some cases this being their very lives.  In other words, 'no pain, no gain'!   A gift for a gift.  Seen from a punning perspective, one might even say there is something more profound to the meaning of 'Le Bon Pain' or 'Au Bon Pain' (translated as 'good bread' or alternatively a 'good pein=pain') than a mere name for a popular baking franchise!  So, we have a potential wordplay on 'le bon pain' vs. an 'ill pain' -- a dialectic concerning the 'good' vs. the 'bad' sort of pain, and under which conditions a person is willing to exchange one for the other.  

To return to the anti-hero Ser Ill-yn, Payne was promoted to his current post (the 'good' that came of the 'ill'), only following his sacrifice for house Lannister:

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime III

Ser Ilyn's appointment had been a wedding gift from Robert Baratheon to the father of his bride, a sinecure to compensate Payne for the tongue he'd lost in the service of House Lannister. He made a splendid headsman. He had never botched an execution, and seldom required as much as a second stroke. And there was something about his silence that inspired terror. Seldom had a King's Justice seemed so well fitted for his office.

Later, as @Blackfyre Bastard has mentioned, Podrick's life in turn was spared due to Payne's sacrifice, showing how even distantly-related family members may benefit from or be harmed by each other's choices and actions, even if this process proceeds inadvertently, over time.  

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On 10/16/2016 at 8:50 PM, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Bread in the broader sense of food and nourishment could be at issue also. Don't forget that Pod is usually described as undernourished: too thin and short for his age. He looks (and behaves) very much a child compared to Sansa who is of an age with him.

Pod was sentenced to death for sharing food belonging to Tywin with other soldiers, but his name saved him (Payne / paine / bread)

 

Strangely, though a distant cousin of Ser Ilyn, Pod with his speech impediment seems to have 'inherited' a measure of Payne's affliction -- reflecting GRRM's notion of collective in addition to individual responsibility and punishment...the son pays for the sins of the father, etc. --amounting to an endlessly (re)iterated concatenation of 'quid pro quo' retribution and reward, riposte and counter-riposte, extending through time:

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VIII

His squire, a boy with the unfortunate name of Podrick Payne, swallowed whatever he had been about to say. The lad was a distant cousin to Ser Ilyn Payne, the king's headsman … and almost as quiet, although not for want of a tongue. Tyrion had made him stick it out once, just to be certain. "Definitely a tongue," he had said. "Someday you must learn to use it."

At the moment, he did not have the patience to try and coax a thought out of the lad, whom he suspected had been inflicted on him as a cruel jape. Tyrion turned his attention back to the girl. "Is this her?" he asked Bronn.

In GRRM's view of history, therefore, transgressions and sacrifices have cumulative consequences, 'paying it forward,' as Tyrion notes:

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

"It was. Even you can see that, surely?"

"Oh, surely." It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. "Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt."

"She thought so," Prince Oberyn agreed, "but your father is not a man to forget such slights. He taught that lesson to Lord and Lady Tarbeck once, and to the Reynes of Castamere. And at King's Landing, he taught it to my sister. My helm, Dagos." Manwoody handed it to him; a high golden helm with a copper disk mounted on the brow, the sun of Dorne. The visor had been removed, Tyrion saw. "Elia and her children have waited long for justice." Prince Oberyn pulled on soft red leather gloves, and took up his spear again. "But this day they shall have it."

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother."

"Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." She drank the last of the wine in four long swallows, flung the skin aside, and pointed her stick at Lord Beric. "I'll have my payment now. I'll have the song you promised me."

@cgrav has made the insightful commentary on @Macgregor of the North's recent provocative thread that though the elements of fire and weirwood represent two intersecting aspects of each other, fire is restricted to existing in the present and prophesying the future exclusively (which makes sense considering how fire only burns in one direction), whereas the weirwoods exist out of time and therefore are able to see into deep time past as well as future (analogous to Odin hung on the sacred tree, shuttling up and down, back and forth the trunk of time).  Fire vs. wood/ice are compared to passion vs. wisdom respectively, the extremes of which would be a certain mindless, wanton violence inherent in the former when unchecked e.g. Melisandre's zealotry, Targaryen 'dragonbloodedness' or the Stark trait of 'wolfbloodedness';  vs. the impotent stagnation of the changeless latter, e.g. Bloodraven's frustration at his limitations and his regrets at not being able to address unfinished business, despite his supposedly 'omniscient, omnipresent' position, expressed here:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

Otherwise put, one might say that the two poles of fire and ice/wood represent mortality vs. immortality respectively.  However, this is not a simple case of life vs. death.  Rather, those who are immortal existing outside the plane of time and therefore not subject to death are nevertheless paradoxically closer to a state of death than those who are reducing themselves to ashes in the heat of the moment, giving rise to the surprising admission that the fullness of divine knowledge can not be attained by the divine, nor obviously mortal, alone.  In order to truly partake in life and have a vital impact, the god must enter the mortal plane -- akin to the 'passion of Christ' (the word 'passion' at root meaning suffering or pain)-- and subject him/her/itself to the contingencies of time, including pain, decay and death.  Life is therefore contingent upon death.  Combustion is the cardinal principle (burning fuel in order to create fuel...the ouroboros, 'magic'), of which the other expressions of life, namely, consumption (eating), consummation (sex), and conflict (war), are just variations of the same.  Sacrifice is interwoven into the fabric of the dialectic.  

'Burning' does not come free of charge, as the Ghost of High Heart reminds the Lightning Lord, so the debts accrued in the course of life -- via the cardinal 'sin' of the burning -- even if executed mindlessly or unintentionally 'in the moment' are nevertheless remembered on the level of the immortals, with ensuing repercussions across time.  Despite on the one hand obliterating time, burning on the other hand marks out time in its wake casting a long shadow.  It's a 'quid pro quo' situation, an economic exchange if you will, whereby the Lightning Lord as representative of the mortal realm (despite being 'undead' to a certain extent!) extracts a prophecy from the Ghost (also 'undead') who is the representative of the immortal realm, who then exacts a song in payment, in return for her pains ...'I'll have the song that was promised.'  You may interpret her summons more broadly -- actually constituting a threat at the end of an accusing pointed wooden (probably weirwood) stick analogous to Ser Ilyn's silent accusation of Joffrey via his equally magic sword-- so that in payment for what was sacrificed to the fire in the past (e.g. the decimation of the weirwoods at High Heart, or the abduction of the moonmaid by the red wanderer, however you may be inclined to interpret that), a debt is owing in the form of a pending sacrifice of fire to the trees in future.  

This is graphically represented by the image of the burnt bones in the mouth of the weirwood:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

The cavernous mouth in the tree is like an oven or furnace baking the bread or forging a sword respectively!

Moreover, @LmL, I have news for you:  Just as humans 'stole fire from the gods and made it/them their thrall,' likewise the gods steal fire from the mortals and make it and them their thralls!  The intersection of the mortal and immortal planes is the give-and-take of the spark of the divine, which is none other than the capacity for burning itself.  William Blake said it best:

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'Eternity is in love with the productions of time.'

And vice versa.

 

On 10/16/2016 at 6:00 PM, Seams said:

The pain wordplay seems to focus on Gendry, who is described as looking pained after discussion of hunting wild boar. I interpreted this as allusion to the death of the father Gendry never knew, King Robert, and as a symbolic death for Gendry himself. Later in the chapter, Lommy Greenhands dies, perhaps underscoring the symbolic death of Gendry with a green dye / Gendry pun. Of course, a symbolic death just clears the way for a rebirth for Gendry as he and his surviving companions enter Harrenhal.

It occurred to me that pain could be wordplay on the surname of Ser Ilyn Payne, the King's Justice, especially if you accept the symbolic death notion. Once I recognized the possible pun, it crossed my mind that there could be a third layer of meaning. The baker named Hot Pie is part of Gendry's group, and the french word for bread is also pain.

To better understand the meaning GRRM intends for this wordplay, I think we need to look at additional examples of pain and bread and Ser Ilyn (or execution and death in general). Ser Ilyn's sword is used to cut the pie crust at Joffrey's wedding feast. People eat food out of trenchers - bowls carved out of loaves of bread. (Theon's trencher is cut open and the fish stew inside gets on his clothes during the raucous feast where he learns that "Esgred" is really his sister, Asha.) Of course, bread is often a key component in establishing the guest/host relationship of guest right.

Of course, Podrick Payne is present when both Tyrion and Brienne experience excruciating pain and symbolic death.

If you can think of additional examples linking pain / Payne and bread, or if you think you understand why GRRM wants to link these words in our minds, please share your insights.

As I've touched on above, 'pain' involves a painful payment or sacrifice, so bread -- or pie -- is symbolic of GRRM's theme of sacrifice, particularly pertaining to religion where bread and wine represent the body and blood of the god respectively.  Fittingly, we find the following rather disturbing reference in retrospect to Old Nan 'plucking at a hot pie' at the harvest feast over which Bran presides as de facto Lord of Winterfell:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

On the benches below, Winterfell men mixed with smallfolk from the winter town, friends from the nearer holdfasts, and the escorts of their lordly guests. Some faces Bran had never seen before, others he knew as well as his own, yet they all seemed equally foreign to him. He watched them as from a distance, as if he still sat in the window of his bedchamber, looking down on the yard below, seeing everything yet a part of nothing.

Osha moved among the tables, pouring ale. One of Leobald Tallhart's men slid a hand up under her skirts and she broke the flagon over his head, to roars of laughter. Yet Mikken had his hand down some woman's bodice, and she seemed not to mind. Bran watched Farlen make his red bitch beg for bones and smiled at Old Nan plucking at the crust of a hot pie with wrinkled fingers. On the dais, Lord Wyman attacked a steaming plate of lampreys as if they were an enemy host.

Note, there are further references to sacrifice, with potential echoes of human sacrifice and cannibalism, in the 'red bitch begging for bones' (?Melisandre..?Theon); gluttonous Lord Wyman 'attacking the lampreys' which of course foreshadows the infamous so-called 'Frey pies' ( @Pain killer Jane has pointed out that 'lamprey' is a pun on 'lamb prey'...in line with the whole sacrificial lamb / scapegoat theme of which 'pies' and 'pain as bread' are undoubtedly part and parcel); and then last-but-not-least Bran as sacrificial lamb raising and sipping from the goblet of wine, possibly symbolising that his own blood is at stake in providing for his people.  Although Jon is most frequently identified as a 'Christ'-figure, Bran is my main candidate for someone who is first sacrificed to a god, rising in the godhead, to return 'reborn' and finally, I believe, sacrifice himself for the good of the realm.  Bran pinioned by -- or nailed to -- the weirwood tree, as we anticipate him to become in the manner of 'half corpse-half tree' enthralled and enthralling Bloodraven, could not be a more graphic representation of Christian or Odinesque crucifixion.  When Bran was young, Jon gave up his fish for Bran in a selfless 'Christlike' gesture of generosity and love (echoing the parable of the miracle of the bread loaves and the fish) that Bran's never forgotten -- soon it will be Bran's turn to reciprocate, and symbolically he is the fish!  (Besides being a Tully, for more on Bran's increasingly aquatic symbolic existence 'underwater', see my 'nennymoan' musings, as referenced upthread).  Such a sacrifice would also evoke the poisson/poison relation you've uncovered.

Bear in mind, as I've underscored, the sacrifice referred to goes both ways: including a sacrifice to the gods by/of  mortals, as well as a sacrifice by/of the gods to mortals.  In order to understand GRRM's meanings, particularly in terms of how he's exploring religion, it's important to acknowledge the pervasive impact on his psyche of his Catholic upbringing, of which we can find many traces in his books.  Besides a certain personal tendency towards wallowing in gleeful perversity with which he writes, his focus on human sacrifice and cannibalism, for example, can be understood with reference to the more disturbing aspects forming the basis of cornerstone Catholic rituals such as the Holy Communion.

 Of possible interest to you, I found this article which highlights many of the themes and puns we've been discussing:

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a symbolic link between le pain and pain in Christian doctrine.

When one “breaks bread,” le pain (pronounced “pan” with a soft “n”) does not feel the pain (la peine, pronounced “pen”). Yes, but when scripture speaks of Jesus Christ as “the bread of life” and then, on the cross, as “broken bread,” well, that’s another story. The agony of the cross is, ergo, the agony of the bread. Now fast forward through Christ’s resurrection and the birth of the church to the liturgy of Holy Communion where the body (bread) and blood (wine) of Christ are symbolically ingested.

Here Taylor, a lapsed Catholic, stops me short. “French Catholics believe that the body and blood of Christ are literally, not symbolically, present in the bread and wine.” She then translates the French saying, Nul pain sans peine — No bread without pain. “We take our bread and our pain very seriously!” Taylor clarifies one more minor point. “The cultured French would never break bread with their hands,” she says. “They cut bread with a knife, and usually on a diagonal.”

Our server delivers our beverages and while we sip, I take notes as Taylor, fluent in five languages, ventures into etymology. The French word “le pain” has its roots in Sanskrit and Latin. The Sanskrit pa (long) and nis (to feed or nourish) evolved into Latin as panis. And when we break bread with another, we are copains — friends. The co is from the Latin cum, meaning “with” — with bread. In English, the word “companion” literally means bread mate.  [this echoes the 'guest right' ritual]

...

Taylor also advises getting the French articles and genders right. “Order la pain instead of le pain and you could end up with a plate of lapin.” [lapin = rabbit]

Speaking of rabbits

All this talk of pain, le pain and le lapin stimulates Taylor’s childhood memories of the little chocolate rabbits she consumed during Easter services. Aha! More links. Broken bread is resurrected as chocolate lapins. Easter’s rituals were associated by early Christians with the pagan celebration of spring, and rabbits are symbols of both fecundity and resurrection. The female rabbit’s prodigious procreative capacities are evident in her ability to get pregnant twice in the same season, carrying two litters simultaneously.

Of course, the lapin (the rabbit), like the pain (the bread) is sacrificed in the interests of regeneration and resurrection.

Speaking of fertility, let's turn now to a discussion of 'the seed' as sacrifice.  Bread (pain) is made from flour meal, which is essentially ground seed (crushed in a process which may imaginatively be conceived of as 'painful' or threatening for the seed or the plant from which it derives, requiring that it offers up its life for the sake of another).  One such variety of seed is corn although 'seed' of course may in general refer to human or animal reproductive potency.  Many have noted the symbolic significance of the 'corn' which the Raven and the crows, including the three-eyed crow, keep demanding ad nauseum, hinting at the importance of a human sacrifice at the core of the conflict and its resolution, particularly in relation to Bran as well as Jon who are most often the recipients of these demands ('corn king' mythology).  Then, there's the origin of the Night's King (who sacrificed his seed for power) and the Nissa Nissa/Lightbringer story (who sacrificed her seed for love):

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Gaining potency is thus accompanied by a loss of potency -- i.e. the payment for that potency.  For example, giving his seed to Melisandre in order to make a 'shadow baby' assassin depletes Stannis of his energetic resources, to the extent that she approaches Davos, the next victim of her blind quest.

Segueing into your observations surrounding Gendry now, as the bastard of Robert Baratheon -- a notoriously fecund 'seed spreader' -- Gendry is biologically descended from a long line of 'green-fingered,' 'horned-god,' fertile antecedents, some of them even considered greenseer material, for example Durran Godsgrief or Garth Greenhand, the latter associated with human sacrifice according to some accounts: 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god.

There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. More likely, his sobriquet derived from his gifts as a gardener and a tiller of the soil—the one trait on which all the tales agree. "Garth made the corn ripen, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom," the singers tell us.

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

Accordingly, the death of Robert by the boar (agree with you re: GRRM's joke about Robert as the thoughtless, callous 'fat king' vs. Gendry as the thinking, 'pained' 'thin king'), in addition to the death of Lommy Greenhands for that matter can be understood as Gendry's symbolic death  and identity transformation.  As @sweetsunray has noted, he enters Harrenhal as a chained smith or bear archetype, exiting it later with Arya liberated as a warrior and forest caretaker smith.  Harrenhal can also be understood as a mill in which people as seed are broken down and ground, as well as an oven in which the seed or bread is matured (referring to its dragonfire-roasting history) and symbolic forge for human 'swords'.  The 'green hand' is thus transformed into a 'black hand' -- Harrenhal's 5 towers represent the five fingers of a black hand thrusting skyward in defiance.  Other similar 'smith' or 'Azor Ahai' archetypal characters with transformed hands(or Hands) include Jon, Moqorro, Jaime, Qhorin Halfhand, Tyrion, Theon, Brynden Rivers and Bran, among others.

Whether seed of the 'first men' or 'dragonseed,' the sacrifice always involves a blood and fire component.  The startling upshot:  Greenseer magic is Valyrian magic!  As demonstrated in this scene:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

"The godswood." Meera Reed ran after the direwolf, her shield and frog spear to hand. The rest of them trailed after, threading their way through smoke and fallen stones. The air was sweeter under the trees. A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."

 

Wood defeats or consumes fire.  So, we have a fire sacrifice to the trees, followed by a blood sacrifice:

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On the edge of the black pool, beneath the shelter of the heart tree, Maester Luwin lay on his belly in the dirt. A trail of blood twisted back through damp leaves where he had crawled. Summer stood over him, and Bran thought he was dead at first, but when Meera touched his throat, the maester moaned. "Hodor?" Hodor said mournfully. "Hodor?"

Gently, they eased Luwin onto his back. He had grey eyes and grey hair, and once his robes had been grey as well, but they were darker now where the blood had soaked through. "Bran," he said softly when he saw him sitting tall on Hodor's back. "And Rickon too." He smiled. "The gods are good. I knew . . ."

Shortly thereafter, Luwin poignantly elects to sacrifice himself to the tree -- for Bran.  It's a particularly moving moment, not only because we know with the foreknowledge of retrospective reading that this is Bran's tree which he is destined to inhabit as a greenseer -- and since he's a timeless being, within which he already resides, possibly watching on through sad, red, tearful eyes as his first mentor lies dying at his feet; but also because Maester Luwin was always so skeptical and dismissive of the very power to which he now offers himself.  Some Maester's links are more truly forged at the base of a weirwood tree than behind the lofty parapet of the Citadel.  In his final gesture, representing the culmination of all his learning -- encompassing both his knowledge and his lack of knowledge -- he most truly earned his Valyrian steel link!  Although he's painted as a 'grey' character, derided by some such as Lady Catelyn and Lady Dustin for being a meddlesome 'rat', with his grey eyes and grey hair and grey robes, I see more of the direwolf in him here than the rat, as he lays himself down at the foot of the King of Winter.

Finally, while we're on the subject of trees consuming people with its relation to baked goods, I wonder if there's an additional wordplay at work relating to your previously identified anagrammatic pair of 'deserters'/'red trees', namely of 'desert' with 'dessert'!  Sorry if you've already mentioned it; I can't recall if you did!  In this respect, it's interesting to consider the etymological underpinnings of certain connotations of the words 'desert' and 'dessert':

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DESERT

Noun. Middle English.
[Old French, from deservir DESERVE.]
 
1(a) Deserving, being worthy of reward or punishment. ME
 
1(b) Merit, excellence, worth. LME
 
2 An action or quality deserving reward or punishment. Usually in plural. LME
 
3 Due reward or punishment, something deserved.
Frequently in get one's deserts, have one's deserts, meet with one's deserts, etc. LME

From here.  Also, from the online etymological dictionary:

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c. 1600, from Middle French dessert (mid-16c.) "last course," literally "removal of what has been served," from desservir "clear the table," literally "un-serve," from des- "remove, undo" (see dis-) + Old French servir "to serve" (see serve (v.)).

All men must serve.  And the trees, like the dragons, get their just des(s)erts!

ETA:  Luwin's death may have been the price paid for Bran leaving i.e. 'deserting' Winterfell.  

Edited by ravenous reader
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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

To that trio, you might add 'pay'-ne in the sense of having to pay for ones actions karmically, 'paying the piper' etc.,

I'll have to think about this. Connecting "pay" to "pain" in the books would require that the phrase, "Lannisters always pay their debts" fit into the motif. I'm always on board with additional layers of meaning for important phrases and symbols and passages, so maybe this would work as a third layer for the Lannister motto.

Seen from a punning perspective, one might even say there is something more profound to the meaning of 'Le Bon Pain' or 'Au Bon Pain' (translated as 'good bread' or alternatively a 'good pein=pain') than a mere name for a popular baking franchise!  So, we have a potential wordplay on 'le bon pain' vs. an 'ill pain' -- a dialectic concerning the 'good' vs. the 'bad' sort of pain, and under which conditions a person is willing to exchange one for the other. 
This is excellent! I spent a little time searching the bread references, and bread always seems to be good - people want it; it's nourishing; it's fresh and warm. Even when it's stale, it can be used as a trencher. So it makes sense that there is good pain (bread) and bad pain (the kind that happens when Ser Ilyn chops off your head).

 

'Burning' does not come free of charge, ... a debt is owing in the form of a pending sacrifice of fire to the trees in future.  

This is graphically represented by the image of the burnt bones in the mouth of the weirwood:

The cavernous mouth in the tree is like an oven or furnace baking the bread or forging a sword respectively!

I love this, too. Tree as oven. Bran and his friends walk into the tree at the Black Gate. I suppose Sam and Gilly and Gilly's baby do, too. Lots of interesting possibilities here.

As I've touched on above, 'pain' involves a painful payment or sacrifice, so bread -- or pie -- is symbolic of GRRM's theme of sacrifice, particularly pertaining to religion where bread and wine represent the body and blood of the god respectively.  Fittingly, we find the following rather disturbing reference in retrospect to Old Nan 'plucking at a hot pie' at the harvest feast over which Bran presides as de facto Lord of Winterfell:

There is a major symbolic death for Bran at that feast. I re-read it recently for the direwolf re-read discussion, and I kept having to go over and over it to take in all the detail. I'm sure I missed a lot and will need to go back to it again. And to your upcoming point about deserts: as he directs which guest should have the first serving of each dish, Bran sends desserts to Old Nan and Hodor because he loves them. Hmm.

...In order to understand GRRM's meanings, particularly in terms of how he's exploring religion, it's important to acknowledge the pervasive impact on his psyche of his Catholic upbringing, of which we can find many traces in his books.  ... for example, ...Catholic rituals such as the Holy Communion.

It seems like this has to apply to the bread symbolism. And I think the next point in my reader's digest of your post clarifies the connection.

Speaking of fertility, let's turn now to a discussion of 'the seed' as sacrifice.  Bread (pain) is made from flour meal, which is essentially ground seed (crushed in a process which may imaginatively be conceived of as 'painful' or threatening for the seed or the plant from which it derives, requiring that it offers up its life for the sake of another). 

In my initial post about pain / le pain, I had completely forgotten about the whole discussion of flour / flower / flow earlier on this thread. Ramsay is the son of a miller's wife; Ramsay gets Theon blamed for killing the miller's boys (represented as Bran and Rickon). Bran is even a type of ground seed or grain, so that is a perfect fit. And we had Arya's flashback scene with Jon Snow covered in flour, scaring baby Bran in the crypt (with Robb's help). So the sacrifice motif is established by connecting the sacrificial kings to flour, not directly to bread. Very good.

Finally, while we're on the subject of trees consuming people with its relation to baked goods, I wonder if there's an additional wordplay at work relating to your previously identified anagrammatic pair of 'deserters'/'red trees', namely of 'desert' with 'dessert'

Now we'll have to examine lemon cakes as symbols of desertion!

Nice work, rr. I always feel as if I've been on every ride at the carnival after reading one of your posts. There's some great wordplay stuff in this one.

 

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