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On 3/30/2016 at 3:29 PM, Seams said:

craven / raven - This one seems most closely linked in the person of Sam Tarly, who is always worried about being craven and who takes charge of the Night's Watch ravens. Bran recalls that his father told him, "There's no shame in fear, my father told me, what matters is how we face it." (ACoK) Any other ways these two sound-alike words are paired?

Hey seams I don't know if anyone pointed this out but Sam being a brother of the Night's Watch, he is also a scarecrow in the sense that he is protecting the crop. i.e. the realms of men. The action of being craven is the action of being scared but like how you pointed out with Bran's quote being scared is not the issue the real issue is how we face it which what Sam's journey is about. So the multi-layer meaning of Sam is that he is a scared crow (a brother of the Night's Watch) but is tasked with protecting it like a scarecrow. A hint to this is Maester Cressen standing in between the two gargoyles the wyvern and hellhound but is symbolically acting like a gargoyle another symbol of protection against something but was originally the thing it is currently thing from. Added bonus is that Cressen is a maester which is what Sam is currently studying. 

Edited by Pain killer Jane
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49 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Hey seams I don't know if anyone pointed this out but Sam being a brother of the Night's Watch, he is also a scarecrow in the sense that he is protecting the crop. i.e. the realms of men. The action of being craven is the action of being scared but like how you pointed out with Bran's quote being scared is not the issue the real issue is how we face it which what Sam's journey is about. So the multi-layer meaning of Sam is that he is a scared crow (a brother of the Night's Watch) but is tasked with protecting it like a scarecrow. A hint to this is Maester Cressen standing in between the two gargoyles the wyvern and hellhound but is symbolically acting like a gargoyle another symbol of protection against something but was originally the thing it is currently thing from. Added bonus is that Cressen is a maester which is what Sam is currently studying. 

Excellent catch: scarecrow / scared crow. I like it.

Jon had six scarecrows sharing the roof of the King’s Tower with him, along with two actual breathing brothers.

(ASoS, Jon VII)

I always thought that line might have hidden significance. Robb is dead at this point, but Bran and Rickon are still alive - two actual breathing brothers. I think there may be a motif with scarecrows and characters like Hayhead (Bran's guard at Winterfell) and the straw-filled jousting dummy that knocks Tommen off his horse at Joffrey's name day tournament. It might make sense that Sam is part of the group, as he is an unwitting warrior who is more effective in combat than anyone suspects he will be. I never thought to add Maester Cressen to that motif, but the possibilities are rich. Very nice!

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Hey seams I don't know if anyone pointed this out but Sam being a brother of the Night's Watch, he is also a scarecrow in the sense that he is protecting the crop. i.e. the realms of men. The action of being craven is the action of being scared but like how you pointed out with Bran's quote being scared is not the issue the real issue is how we face it which what Sam's journey is about. So the multi-layer meaning of Sam is that he is a scared crow (a brother of the Night's Watch) but is tasked with protecting it like a scarecrow. A hint to this is Maester Cressen standing in between the two gargoyles the wyvern and hellhound but is symbolically acting like a gargoyle another symbol of protection against something but was originally the thing it is currently thing from. Added bonus is that Cressen is a maester which is what Sam is currently studying. 

I like Sam as 'scared crow'/'scarecrow'!  Indeed, Cressen was most brave swallowing that poison for the sake of the realm. Unfortunately, he didn't realise he couldn't use poison to fight against the dead.

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31 minutes ago, Seams said:

Excellent catch: scarecrow / scared crow. I like it.

Jon had six scarecrows sharing the roof of the King’s Tower with him, along with two actual breathing brothers.

(ASoS, Jon VII)

I always thought that line might have hidden significance. Robb is dead at this point, but Bran and Rickon are still alive - two actual breathing brothers. I think there may be a motif with scarecrows and characters like Hayhead (Bran's guard at Winterfell) and the straw-filled jousting dummy that knocks Tommen off his horse at Joffrey's name day tournament. It might make sense that Sam is part of the group, as he is an unwitting warrior who is more effective in combat than anyone suspects he will be. I never thought to add Maester Cressen to that motif, but the possibilities are rich. Very nice!

I agree that line is extremely significant. If we take the three male Starks still alive they could be the three gargoyles in the Cressen scene. Jon the wyvern (not a dragon but still a kin of dragons), Bran would be Cressen, Rickon like Ravenous Reader pointed out could be the hellhound as hellhounds irl are just monstrous black dogs and Shaggy is a monstrous black wolf that is a pet. @ravenous reader and I have been corresponding about scarecrows and their symbolism. And Ravenous pointed out this scene and asked who the wyvern and the hellhound might represent if a scarecrow is also a gargoyle. 

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On 10/31/2016 at 6:11 PM, Seams said:

dog / god

sun / son / solar

I'm cautious of commenting on your threads at all at this point, having been chewed out by you so many times for mentioning nay kind of astronomy, but nevertheless, I have a thought or two here. 

On 10/31/2016 at 6:11 PM, Seams said:

Several metaphors in Jon POVs in ADwD compare fire and/or the religion of R'hllor to a dog. This led me to wonder whether there might be deliberate wordplay around dogs and gods.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

(ADwD, Jon III)

"I had forgotten that you northmen worship trees."
"What sort of god lets himself be pissed upon by dogs?" asked Farring's crony Clayton Suggs.

(ADwD, Jon IV)

"Now, a dog can herd a flock of sheep," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had said, "but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them." Neither shadowcats nor stones were like to give up the gods they had worshiped all their lives to bow down before one they hardly knew.

(ADwD, Jon V)

Melisandre raised her hands, and the ditchfire leapt upward toward her fingers, like a great red dog springing for a treat.

(ADwD, Jon X)

Of course, there are zillions of references to dogs in the books, and many of them seem unrelated to fire or the red god. So there may be some unique aspect about demonstrations of piety by Stannis and Melisandre at the Wall. For some reason, the author sees their religion as being like a dog. If it's not a pun on god, what do you think GRRM is getting at here?

To be fair, in ADwD, Jon also uses the dog metaphor to describe the Wall, banks and the Karstarks who come looking for Alys. But there's a definite pattern with the comparison of fire and/or R'hllorism to a dog.

Hell-hound. That's your fiery dog. I have my own interpretation of hellhounds in mythical astronomy terms - they are very similar to dragons in many ways - but if you want to follow your own nose on this (ha ha) then I suggest looking to Theon's dream of Bran and Rickon as hellhound / dire wolf children, and also everything having to do with Sandor, as he is a burnt Hound. You will notice all the Stark wolves have fiery descriptions of their eyes, and that is no accident - I believe all the dire wolves are "hell hounds" after a fashion. Sander's "what dogs do to wolves" quote is misleading in this sense. 

Thematically, fire consumes, hounds hunt. R'hllor is a ravenous dog god, he's coming to getcha. 

On 10/31/2016 at 6:11 PM, Seams said:

I am throwing in a link here to some analysis of solars on another thread. @ravenous reader had pointed out that there was a pun on sun and son just as I was starting to pay attention to solars. I thought I would find some kind of wordplay clue about Ser Loras relating to solars, but that didn't pan out at all. What I did find is a pattern of sons taking over their father's solars, and daughters as well as sons spending time in their father's solars. So the way that solars is used would very much support the idea of a pun on son and sun. (I realize there is a rich and complex set of metaphors around the sun and moon and stars, but those have been discussed on other threads already. I just though the pun angle needed to be noted in this thread.)

You've considered Quentyn martial, the sun's son, right? There is a very large theme about the second suns which all of this plays into. Basically, Lightbringer is the child of the sun and moon, and so it is the sun's son. Every single second son reference of any kind will lead back to Lightbringer and Azor Ahai. Quentyn seems like a lame-o, but he is trying to ride dragons and marry the "Amethyst Empress Reborn," just as Euron is, and he does have some dragon blood. It's what you would call a weak echo, but there it is. As for the Second Sons company, their banner is a broken sword, and all the broken sword ideas relate to Lightbringer, specifically to the idea of the Last Hero breaking his sword. There are a lot of broken swords - Ice, split in half; the Titan of Bravos holds a broken sword (who heralds the morning and evening, just Venus the Morningstar, whose name means light-bringer), Beric, a clear Azor Ahai echo, has his flaming sword broken, Joffrey vows to break Stannis's magic sword, and so on. 

Anyway don't shoot me but hopefully some of those ideas might help you in your own quest. 

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On 11/1/2016 at 1:36 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

I agree that line is extremely significant. If we take the three male Starks still alive they could be the three gargoyles in the Cressen scene. Jon the wyvern (not a dragon but still a kin of dragons), Bran would be Cressen, Rickon like Ravenous Reader pointed out could be the hellhound as hellhounds irl are just monstrous black dogs and Shaggy is a monstrous black wolf that is a pet. @ravenous reader and I have been corresponding about scarecrows and their symbolism. And Ravenous pointed out this scene and asked who the wyvern and the hellhound might represent if a scarecrow is also a gargoyle. 

Have you guys put together the scarecrow connection between the burning scarecrows in Jon's dream and Beric, the scarecrow knight? Basically, when Jon has his burning red sword / AA dream, he dreams about those scarecrow brothers they made, and in the dream, they are the only ones with him. They tumble down, black cloaks ablaze - like fiery black meteors, it must be said - meaning that they have become burning scarecrows. Those scarecrows were named for brothers who were either dead or absent, so there is an implication of the burning scarecrows as dead or undead fiery scarecrows. That's EXACTLY what Beric is, a fiery undead "scarecrow knight" who also wears a black cloak and who wields a burning sword, just like Jon does in the dream. 

What I think all that is about is that the original Night's Watch were undead greenseers, resurrected by fire magic - probably he Last Hero's 12 who "died." Jon is about to be an undead skinchanger, quite possibly reanimated with fire magic, so essentially Jon would be recreating what I think is the truth behind the original Last Hero. 

Returning to Beric, he's not a skinchanger like Jon, but he has obvious Bloodraven symbolism with the weirwood throne and the one eye missing. That is done to imply him as a greenseer (or skinchanger, same diff) - a greenseer who has been reanimated with fire. Who holds a burning red sword. 

The reason you have to use skinchangers to make a good zombie is because the animal (or tree in the case of a greenseer) can preserve the soul intact for a short time (before it merges with the animal spirit). The animal is a soul-jar, so the resurrected person would not be a faded remnant like Beric or Cat, but a skinchanger who sort of skinchangers his own resurrected corpse. Such a person would be a lot like Coldhands, or a warmer version if fire is used, and they are ideal to fight the Others because they  do not need to eat or sleep or seek warmth. Coldhands can live up there for centuries, and probably has. I think the Last Hero and his company had to make this great sacrifice to journey into the frozen lands, to become a burning scarecrow. 

See what y'all think of that. You're talking about my favorite subjects here. 

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Here is a quick one. Stop me of someone has already pointed this one out...

Sansa is often compared to Danelle Lothston because of looks, bat symbology, Harrenhal stuff, etc...

Right now Sansa is a Lost Stone, which sounds like Lothston.

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Here is a quick one. Stop me of someone has already pointed this one out...

Sansa is often compared to Danelle Lothston because of looks, bat symbology, Harrenhal stuff, etc...

Right now Sansa is a Lost Stone, which sounds like Lothston.

Sounds similar, especially if you have a lisp like Vargo Hoat. ;)

24 minutes ago, LmL said:

 

Here's another potential Lightbringer symbolism for ya' :

He plunged the sword into a tub of rainwater to quench it. The hot steel hissed angrily. AFfC, Brienne VII

Rainwater/Aurane Waters?

I recall a user theorizing that Daenerys will try to make a LB child with three men, Waters being the first (unsuccessful) attempt.  I personally have a hunch that Aurane will be Viserion's ultimate rider.  (Viserion was the first to hatch, so it makes sense that his rider would as parallel the "first attempt."  The sun's son has already failed; Tyrion the "lion" (or BBP through him) will also fail I believe: that is, the people who attempt to ride Viserion will parallel the forging of LB in reverse.  The name Aurane might also stem from the Latin name Aurea/Aureus which means golden.)

Anywho, theories side, this potential pun is something I'm gonna keep in the back of my mind.

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28 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Here is a quick one. Stop me of someone has already pointed this one out...

Sansa is often compared to Danelle Lothston because of looks, bat symbology, Harrenhal stuff, etc...

Right now Sansa is a Lost Stone, which sounds like Lothston.

There's also this: http://m.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6728

and this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodestone

as potential sources for the name Lothston. 

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6 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

There's also this: http://m.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6728

and this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodestone

as potential sources for the name Lothston. 

You are reading my mind tonight :blink:! I was also looking at that earlier before I posted about Sansa Stone.:cheers:

I resisted adding it because from what I know, Lodestone is magnetic, but I couldn't think of anything else.

 

UPDATING:

Ok, I just googled it and maybe there are Lothston/Lodestone connections??? Hmmmm...kinda sounds how so many readers have described Sansa's journey so far.

Lodestone is one of the few minerals that is found naturally magnetized

Edited by The Fattest Leech
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1 hour ago, LmL said:

Have you guys put together the scarecrow connection between the burning scarecrows in Jon's dream and Beric, the scarecrow knight? Basically, when Jon has his burning red sword / AA dream, he dreams about those scarecrow brothers they made, and in the dream, they are the only ones with him. They tumble down, black cloaks ablaze - like fiery black meteors, it must be said - meaning that they have become burning scarecrows. Those scarecrows were named for brothers who were either dead or absent, so there is an implication of the burning scarecrows as dead or undead fiery scarecrows. That's EXACTLY what Beric is, a fiery undead "scarecrow knight" who also wears a black cloak and who wields a burning sword, just like Jon does in the dream. 

What I think all that is about is that the original Night's Watch were undead greenseers, resurrected by fire magic - probably he Last Hero's 12 who "died." Jon is about to be an undead skinchanger, quite possibly reanimated with fire magic, so essentially Jon would be recreating what I think is the truth behind the original Last Hero. 

Returning to Beric, he's not a skinchanger like Jon, but he has obvious Bloodraven symbolism with the weirwood throne and the one eye missing. That is done to imply him as a greenseer (or skinchanger, same diff) - a greenseer who has been reanimated with fire. Who holds a burning red sword. 

The reason you have to use skinchangers to make a good zombie is because the animal (or tree in the case of a greenseer) can preserve the soul intact for a short time (before it merges with the animal spirit). The animal is a soul-jar, so the resurrected person would not be a faded remnant like Beric or Cat, but a skinchanger who sort of skinchangers his own resurrected corpse. Such a person would be a lot like Coldhands, or a warmer version if fire is used, and they are ideal to fight the Others because they  do not need to eat or sleep or seek warmth. Coldhands can live up there for centuries, and probably has. I think the Last Hero and his company had to make this great sacrifice to journey into the frozen lands, to become a burning scarecrow. 

See what y'all think of that. You're talking about my favorite subjects here. 

The scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz getting a brain if he were a crucified person that stole fire/knowledge from the gods. 

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So here is another study of something that is probably in the pages of this thread.

King Torrhen Stark

Obvious one would be 'torn' or 'ripped'

the second would Tauren - maybe of you will recognize this from World of Warcraft, as the race of cow people from the Horde side of the game. (For the Horde B)) Basically should be viewed as bull like as Taurus is near. 

Now let's break the name Torrhen apart to "Torr" and 'Hen'

torr is a unit of pressure.
Hen is the female version of the word haneni which means 'bird who sings for sunrise'.

So we have a man whose nickname is 'the King Who Knelt" who is probably viewed as a chicken, was torn between his decisions, was probably under a lot of pressure and then bent the knee for another sunrise. And was probably a sacrificial bull (this last one is up for debate) 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So here is another study of something that is probably in the pages of this thread.

King Torrhen Stark

Obvious one would be 'torn' or 'ripped'

the second would Tauren - maybe of you will recognize this from World of Warcraft, as the race of cow people from the Horde side of the game. (For the Horde B)) Basically should be viewed as bull like as Taurus is near. 

Now let's break the name Torrhen apart to "Torr" and 'Hen'

torr is a unit of pressure.
Hen is the female version of the word haneni which means 'bird who sings for sunrise'.

So we have a man whose nickname is 'the King Who Knelt" who is probably viewed as a chicken, was torn between his decisions, was probably under a lot of pressure and then bent the knee for another sunrise. And was probably a sacrificial bull (this last one is up for debate) 

 

 

Torrhen might be one of the German-influenced names we discussed up-thread.  Tor means gate in German.  Tormund means gate protection/protector.  

There's a city called Rhen (I think) somewhere in the Rhine valley.  Don't quote me on that.  Doubt there's a connection to that though. 

ETA: the hen might be from the German diminutive ending chen, which mean little or small.  Little or small gate?  The CH in chen is a glutaral fricative, sounding something like a harsh H.

Edited by Isobel Harper
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14 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Torrhen might be one of the German-influenced names we discussed up-thread.  Tor means gate in German.  Tormund means gate protection/protector.  

I figured someone would have looked at Torrhen. Did you guys also discuss the English and Welsh origins of 'Tor' as a tower or a craggy outcrop on a hill, up thread? 

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14 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So here is another study of something that is probably in the pages of this thread.

King Torrhen Stark

Obvious one would be 'torn' or 'ripped'

the second would Tauren - maybe of you will recognize this from World of Warcraft, as the race of cow people from the Horde side of the game. (For the Horde B)) Basically should be viewed as bull like as Taurus is near. 

Now let's break the name Torrhen apart to "Torr" and 'Hen'

torr is a unit of pressure.
Hen is the female version of the word haneni which means 'bird who sings for sunrise'.

So we have a man whose nickname is 'the King Who Knelt" who is probably viewed as a chicken, was torn between his decisions, was probably under a lot of pressure and then bent the knee for another sunrise. And was probably a sacrificial bull (this last one is up for debate) 

 

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Torrhen might be one of the German-influenced names we discussed up-thread.  Tor means gate in German.  Tormund means gate protection/protector.  

There's a city called Rhen (I think) somewhere in the Rhine valley.  Don't quote me on that.  Doubt there's a connection to that though. 

ETA: the hen might be from the German diminutive ending chen, which mean little or small.  Little or small gate?  The CH in chen is a glutaral fricative, sounding something like a harsh H.

In addition to 'Tor' meaning gateway or portal, it can also mean 'scoring a goal' (e.g. in a game such as football=soccer) as well as being a 'fool' or 'idiot' in German.  

By kneeling to Aegon, Torrhen provided a gateway or free passage for the Targaryens to the North, which can be interpreted as a score by Aegon or Torrhen or both, depending on ones perspective (in this analogy, the Neck would be the entrance to the goal and Torrhen the goalie!).  Certainly, GRRM does wish us to ponder whether refusing to yield is always the winning option when faced with the other alternative of perpetuating the 'bloodsport'.   Although Torrhen no doubt spared his own people much bloodshed by this gesture, he was also inevitably derided for a fool on account of having relinquished his honor, crown and independence to the invaders.

 I like @Pain killer Jane's pun of 'Tor(he)n' (silent 'h') with 'torn,' whereby Torrhen was torn between his pride and his pragmatism.  It's also ironic that in yielding -- which likely 'tore' him up personally -- he helped mend the fabric of the realm into one, this being a symbolic demonstration of GRRM's theme of personal sacrifice done for the greater good.  I believe @Seams has also previously mentioned the pun of 'annealing' with 'kneeling,' so Torrhen kneeling can be interpreted as an important step in the forging of a peace, serving to knit the realm into one, the one who 'kneels' removing internal stresses and strengthening it just as one 'anneals' in the forging of a sword.

51 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Did you guys also discuss the English and Welsh origins of 'Tor' as a tower or a craggy outcrop on a hill, up thread? 

Perhaps you ought to mention it to @Wizz-The-Smith.  He does so love identifying a new hill, hollow preferably!  @Tijgy has also pointed out that the name 'Brandon' can also mean a hill.  So GRRM definitely wishes to identify those Starks with hills.

Edited by ravenous reader
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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

 

In addition to 'Tor' meaning gateway or portal, it can also mean 'scoring a goal' (e.g. in a game such as football=soccer) as well as being a 'fool' or 'idiot' in German.  

By kneeling to Aegon, Torrhen provided a gateway or free passage for the Targaryens to the North, which can be interpreted as a score by Aegon or Torrhen or both, depending on ones perspective (in this analogy, the Neck would be the entrance to the goal and Torrhen the goalie!).  Certainly, GRRM does wish us to ponder whether refusing to yield is always the winning option when faced with the other alternative of perpetuating the 'bloodsport'.   Although Torrhen no doubt spared his own people much bloodshed by this gesture, he was also inevitably derided for a fool on account of having relinquished his honor, crown and independence to the invaders.

 I like @Pain killer Jane's pun of 'Tor(he)n' (silent 'h') with 'torn,' whereby Torrhen was torn between his pride and his pragmatism.  It's also ironic that in yielding -- which likely 'tore' him up personally -- he helped mend the fabric of the realm into one, this being a symbolic demonstration of GRRM's theme of personal sacrifice done for the greater good.  I believe @Seams has also previously mentioned the pun of 'annealing' with 'kneeling,' so Torrhen kneeling can be interpreted as an important step in the forging of a peace, serving to knit the realm into one, the one who 'kneels' removing internal stresses and strengthening it just as one 'anneals' in the forging of a sword.

Perhaps you ought to mention it to @Wizz-The-Smith.  He does so love identifying a new hill, hollow preferably!  @Tijgy has also pointed out that the name 'Brandon' can also mean a hill.  So GRRM definitely wishes to identify those Starks with hills.

Fwiw, Brienne (a feminine form of Brian) also means "hill."

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On 11/3/2016 at 9:11 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

The scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz getting a brain if he were a crucified person that stole fire/knowledge from the gods. 

Doesn't the Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz point in a certain direction when Dorothy first comes upon him?  Isn't it east or west?  Maybe the crucified slaves in Clash are another sort of "scarecrow?"

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