Puns and Wordplay

[LynnS]

Yes, I was reading this with interest.  It triggered something about the Faceless Men and how their 'victims' are marked or chosen and I wonder if they are cursed by someone for the pain they cause or the evil they do to others.  In this way they are marked.  I'm thinking of the man Arya kills as her first official assassination.  The rules are: the person is a stranger to her and can't be someone she loves, hates or knows.  Her target is someone who cheats his clients and takes everything from them if their ships instead of paying out the insurance.  So they are cursed by their victims and then marked by the many faced god.  Then an assassin is chosen to give the gift.

[Isobel Harper]

@Rusted Revolver @Seams @ravenous reader

I'd also like to add another aspect to the wordplay surrounding treasons/tree sons: three sons.  

Quote

The true history of the riverlands begins with the coming of the Andals. After crossing the narrow sea and sweeping over the Vale, these conquerors from the east moved to make it their own, sailing their longships up the Trident and its three great branches. In those days, it seems the Andals fought in bands behind chieftains who the later septons would name kings. Piece by piece, they encroached upon the many petty kings whose realms the rivers watered.

 

Songs speak to us through the years of the Fall of Maidenpool and the death of its boy king, Florian the Brave, Fifth of That Name; of the Widow's Ford, where three sons of Lord Darry held back the Andal warlord Vorian Vypren and his knights for a day and a night, slaying hundreds before they fell themselves; of the night in the White Wood, where supposedly the children of the forest emerged from beneath a hollow hill to send hundreds of wolves against an Andal camp, tearing hundreds of men apart beneath the light of a crescent moon; of the great Battle of Bitter River, where the Brackens of Stone Hedge and the Blackwoods of Raventree Hall made common cause against the invaders, only to be shattered by the charge of 777 Andal knights and seven septons, bearing the seven-pointed star of the Faith upon their shields.

 

The seven-pointed star went everywhere the Andals went, borne before them on shields and banners, embroidered on their surcoats, sometimes incised into their very flesh. In their zeal for the Seven, the conquerors looked upon the old gods of the First Men and the children of the forest as little more than demons, and fell upon the weirwood groves sacred to them with steel and fire, destroying the great white trees wherever they found them and hacking out their carved faces.

Three sons of Lord Darry = tree sons (darry is an oak) = The Others.  The night of the White Wood = The Long Night

So, when we encounter three sons, we ought to look closely for any otherizing/weirwood imagery.  The Tyrell sons Willas, Garlan, Loras?  There's certainly a lot of nature imagery surrounding them and their house.   Robb, Bran, and Rickon?

Saera Targaryen (Jaehaerys and Alysanne's daughter) has three sons and there's a lot of "other" language surrounding her: she's punished for being sexually active by being sent to the Silent Sisters.  She escapes and flees to the Free Cities where she becomes a sex worker.  Upon discovering this, her father calls her a whore and that she's "dead" to him.  She later eventually has three sons, who put a claim forth during the Council of 101.  The wordplay gets a little heavy with her:

First, there's the killing word "whore."  Labeling someone a whore is labeling them "dead" to a society, no longer worthy of sympathy or assistance from fellow societal members from harm, pain, or death.   Jaehaerys claims she is "dead" to him, driving the point across.  This death is social death, which is essentially what the Silent Sisterhood is for in the first place, making people like Saera a pariah.

Whore/Hoar(e) is another wordplay we've discussed often before.  It's connected to the killing word imagery, and because it's an image of a woman locked in a weirwood/locked in ice,  there's possibly a connection to the feminist concept of "fridging": a trope where a woman gets maimed, raped, or murdered and is at the mercy of a male sibling/friend/partner to avenge her.

Saera is mentioned as having wanted the throne, despite being a ninth child and not likely to inherit.  With the Council of 101, her three sons put forth claims - a type of vengeance, trying to get a source of power denied to their mother.

By extension, one could also include three brothers: the Tower of Joy was guarded by three white brothers of the King's Guard; and like this battle in the Riverlands, there's a theme of three against seven. (brother/other wordplay perhaps as well)

[Seams]

Quaithe / The Quay / the key / King's Landing

Old Nan / Olenna

 

[Seams]

Myths / Smith

Legend / Leg end = foot

Rain / Reyne / Rhaenys / Rhaena 

Very new ideas and not yet entirely confirmed by passages from the books.

While walking the dogs today, I started wondering whether myths and smiths are a wordplay pair in ASOIAF. Smiths are people who make things or just workers in general: "According to Septon Meribald, the Smith can also be refer to as the Farmer, the Fisherman, the Carpenter, or the Cobbler as they all represent workers" (Wiki, citing AFfC, Brienne V). Catelyn prays to the Smith to help Bran; Davos makes offerings to the Smith before launching a new ship. 

If GRRM sees stories as something that can be crafted, then a link from smiths to myths could be a really interesting hint to readers. I wish I could remember who it was in this forum that pointed out that "named" chapters are probably parallels or replays of Westeros legends. If true, a connection between myths and smiths could help us to understand more about GRRM's structure of the books and the potential metaphor between weapons and armor (produced by smiths) and stories or myths.

But.

The word myth appears only three times in the books. All three uses of the word are in The World of Ice and Fire. The word "myth" never appears in the novels. I wonder whether GRRM avoids the word "myth" because it too strongly implies that a story is untrue; he is more likely to present a story as possibly true and possibly rumor - the unreliable narrator. Because the World book has co-authors, I wonder whether these uses of the word "myth" were introduced by the other writers and are not part of a deliberate word pair with the important smith archetype in the books. Even if GRRM did introduce the use of the word in the World book, it is not associate at any point with smiths. My gut tells me that GRRM's wordplay is usually more deliberate.

A link between legends and leg ends would be a giant step (so to speak) toward solving a longtime mystery: the symbolism of feet. If "leg end" is another word for a "foot," we may finally have a way to make sense of the foot references in the books. I noticed long ago that GRRM has fun with references to feet, but I couldn't figure out what they mean.

The septon could neither read nor write, as he cheerfully confessed along the road, but he knew a hundred different prayers and could recite long passages from The Seven-Pointed Star from memory, which was all that was required in the villages. He had a seamed, windburnt face, a shock of thick grey hair, wrinkles at the corners of his eyes. Though a big man, six feet tall, he had a way of hunching forward as he walked that made him seem much shorter. His hands were large and leathery, with red knuckles and dirt beneath the nails, and he had the biggest feet that Brienne had ever seen, bare and black and hard as horn.

"I have not worn a shoe in twenty years," he told Brienne. "The first year, I had more blisters than I had toes, and my soles would bleed like pigs whenever I trod on a hard stone, but I prayed and the Cobbler Above turned my skin to leather." (AFfC, Brienne V)

I would have done better to challenge Raff the Sweetling, with a whore upon my back, Jaime thought as he shook mud off his gilded hand. Part of him wanted to tear the thing off and fling it in the river. It was good for nothing, and the left was not much better. Ser Ilyn had gone back to the horses, leaving him to find his own feet. At least I still have two of those. (AFfC, Jaime V)

Edmure Tully had collapsed facedown on the scaffold when Ser Ilyn's blade sheared the rope in two. A foot of hemp still dangled from the noose about his neck. Strongboar grabbed the end of it and pulled him to his feet. "A fish on a leash," he said, chortling. "There's a sight I never saw before." (AFfC, Jaime VI)

Dunk wonders whether it would have been worthwhile to lose a foot if it meant sparing the life of Prince Baelor; Septon Meribald has bare, black feet that are "gnarled and hard as tree roots," squishers have webbed feet. And then there are feet as units of measure: Ser Clarence Crabb and Gregor Clegane were eight feet tall. 

If the theory is correct, I suspect that references to feet tell us we are dealing with something out of a legend. "Legend" is a word that appears 100 times in the books (so far) and may also appear in hidden ways such as references to "Gendel" and Gorne. Tall characters may be legendary figures - the have more "feet" than the average man. But a Jaime POV tells us the White Book of the King's Guard is two feet tall and one-and-a-half feet wide - perhaps signaling that there are legends of heroism contained within. 

I recently pondered whether GRRM intended for readers to compare the region of Dorne to a "foot" on the "body" of Westeros. If so, wordplay on feet and legends might help us to understand the unique relationship between these lands and the rest of the seven kingdoms. Prince Doran suffers from gout, of course, and is unable to use his feet. A cure for his gout might signal the beginning of a healthier relationship between Dorne and the rest of Westeros. 

The possible rain / Reyne / Rhaenys / Rhaena wordplay is the least developed of the puns in this post.

I have been searching for clues about a very fundamental layer of the ASOIAF story: if ice and fire are important, what are the other basic elements of this world? Blood? Water? Light? Color? Stone? Wind? Dirt? Jewels? Glass? Shadow? Seeds? Roots? Rain? 

I have long been intrigued by possible hidden meanings in the trio of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives, Visenya and Rhaenys. Why did Rhaenys disappear? Why did Aegon like her better than Visenya? Why did her descendants survive as the Targaryen rulers? Are there clues in the other "Rhaen-" queens and ladies that could provide insights about Rhaenys?

It struck me recently that there might be hints in the sound-alike "Rhaen-" names and the rain motif built around the Reynes of Castamere. Maybe the word "reign" should also be in the mix, if we are examining Targaryen queens. 

We know that the author intended a pun on "rain" and "House Reyne," as the song The Rains of Castamere refers to the drowning of that House as punishment for their disrespectful behavior toward House Lannister. 

If there is a link between rain, House Reyne and the Targaryen queens, my guess is that it has to do with the imbalance of seasons and the cycle of plant growth and death. (See my other posts about green and brown symbolism for more thoughts about this.) Does Tywin's treatment of House Reyne amount to the banishing of rain? He diverts a river into their home - maybe the symbolism involves flooding, not drought. But that would not be a very subtle cause and effect, so I suspect there is something less obvious but still related to that fundamental layer of Westeros conflict, older and deeper buried than the conflict over the Iron Throne. 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

A link between legends and leg ends would be a giant step (so to speak) toward solving a longtime mystery:

Ha! Love it.

I have a silly theory that Rheanys and Visenya are sisters but not sisters to Aegon.

Rheanys water and air that fall

 

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

A link between legends and leg ends would be a giant step (so to speak) toward solving a longtime mystery: the symbolism of feet. If "leg end" is another word for a "foot," we may finally have a way to make sense of the foot references in the books. I noticed long ago that GRRM has fun with references to feet, but I couldn't figure out what they mean

This really fascinating and calls to mind the wanderers in the story.  Perhaps even the legendary 'fallen stars' who came down to the planet from the sky.

I like this description as well:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Ser Creighton was lost. "Sparrows?"

"The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men." The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. "These are the bones of holy men, murdered for their faith. They served the Seven even unto death. Some starved, some were tortured. Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested. Our Mother Above cries out in her anguish. It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith. Come with us to the city, if you love the Seven."

This has an Ent-ish feel to me.  As though bare feet keep him connected to the earth and it's energy, transforming his feet into roots. 

Quote

In Sindarin, one of Tolkien's Elvish languages, "Fangorn" is a compound of fanga, "beard", and orne, "tree", so it is the equivalent of the English "Treebeard". The Rohirrim (Riders of Rohan) called Fangorn Forest the "Entwood", the wood of the Ents. Treebeard gave it various names in Quenya, another Elvish language: "Ambaróna" means "uprising, sunrise, orient" from amba, "upwards" and róna, "east". "Aldalómë" means "tree twilight" from alda, "tree" and lómë, "dusk, twilight".[T 2] "Tauremorna" means "gloomy forest" from taur, "forest", and morna, "gloomy".[T 2] "Tauremornalómë" means "gloomy twilight forest".[T 3]

The word "Ent" was taken from the Old English ent or eoten, meaning "giant". Tolkien borrowed the word from a phrase in the Anglo-Saxon poems The Ruin and Maxims II, orþanc enta geweorc ("cunning work of giants"),[1] which describe Roman ruins in Britain.[T 4][2]

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by LynnS

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 6/3/2021 at 12:20 AM, Seams said:

A link between legends and leg ends would be a giant step (so to speak) toward solving a longtime mystery: the symbolism of feet. If "leg end" is another word for a "foot," we may finally have a way to make sense of the foot references in the books. I noticed long ago that GRRM has fun with references to feet, but I couldn't figure out what they mean

Nice one, I really like that Seams.

I for one have always enjoyed reading about the feats of the legends. 

[Seams]

25 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Nice one, I really like that Seams.

I for one have always enjoyed reading about the feats of the legends. 

"Defeat" and "de-feet" is probably an intentional pun. Dunk is not "defeated" in the Trial of Seven (and, thus, keeps both of his feet). 

And I bet the connotation of "feat," as you point out, is part of the mix. 

So clever, that GRRM.

[Nadden]

On 3/30/2016 at 8:12 AM, Seams said:

Had a few more come to me this morning:

hide / hide - In a very early chapter, Jon tells Arya not to hide too long, to go back to her room. Because hide is another word for a pelt or animal skin, this goes to the warging or "skin changing" ability of the Stark children. They have to balance their warg adventures with being present in their own bodies. In other words, don't "hide" too long.

sew / sewer - Tyrion is an expert on the sewer system at Casterly Rock. "Sewing" is mostly done by women and, in the books, seems to be a metaphor for holding the kingdom (or society) together.

And another character name:

Aside from the letter "N", the name Oathkeeper contains all the letters for both Theon and Reek. This could strengthen the notion that wards and swords should be considered alongside each other - Oathkeeper is made from Ned's sword, Ice. Theon is Ned's ward.

Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. “Ice,” that sword was called.
“brought forth”
For”ward” 
Four”ward”
Fourth”ward”
Was Theon the fourth ward? Or was “Ice” the fourth sword? Theon= tool of the Gods (defined as)

Is Theon Ned’s sword?

[Nadden]

On 6/2/2021 at 4:20 PM, Seams said:

Myths / Smith

Legend / Leg end = foot

Rain / Reyne / Rhaenys / Rhaena 

Very new ideas and not yet entirely confirmed by passages from the books.

While walking the dogs today, I started wondering whether myths and smiths are a wordplay pair in ASOIAF. Smiths are people who make things or just workers in general: "According to Septon Meribald, the Smith can also be refer to as the Farmer, the Fisherman, the Carpenter, or the Cobbler as they all represent workers" (Wiki, citing AFfC, Brienne V). Catelyn prays to the Smith to help Bran; Davos makes offerings to the Smith before launching a new ship. 

If GRRM sees stories as something that can be crafted, then a link from smiths to myths could be a really interesting hint to readers. I wish I could remember who it was in this forum that pointed out that "named" chapters are probably parallels or replays of Westeros legends. If true, a connection between myths and smiths could help us to understand more about GRRM's structure of the books and the potential metaphor between weapons and armor (produced by smiths) and stories or myths.

But.

The word myth appears only three times in the books. All three uses of the word are in The World of Ice and Fire. The word "myth" never appears in the novels. I wonder whether GRRM avoids the word "myth" because it too strongly implies that a story is untrue; he is more likely to present a story as possibly true and possibly rumor - the unreliable narrator. Because the World book has co-authors, I wonder whether these uses of the word "myth" were introduced by the other writers and are not part of a deliberate word pair with the important smith archetype in the books. Even if GRRM did introduce the use of the word in the World book, it is not associate at any point with smiths. My gut tells me that GRRM's wordplay is usually more deliberate.

A link between legends and leg ends would be a giant step (so to speak) toward solving a longtime mystery: the symbolism of feet. If "leg end" is another word for a "foot," we may finally have a way to make sense of the foot references in the books. I noticed long ago that GRRM has fun with references to feet, but I couldn't figure out what they mean.

The septon could neither read nor write, as he cheerfully confessed along the road, but he knew a hundred different prayers and could recite long passages from The Seven-Pointed Star from memory, which was all that was required in the villages. He had a seamed, windburnt face, a shock of thick grey hair, wrinkles at the corners of his eyes. Though a big man, six feet tall, he had a way of hunching forward as he walked that made him seem much shorter. His hands were large and leathery, with red knuckles and dirt beneath the nails, and he had the biggest feet that Brienne had ever seen, bare and black and hard as horn.

"I have not worn a shoe in twenty years," he told Brienne. "The first year, I had more blisters than I had toes, and my soles would bleed like pigs whenever I trod on a hard stone, but I prayed and the Cobbler Above turned my skin to leather." (AFfC, Brienne V)

I would have done better to challenge Raff the Sweetling, with a whore upon my back, Jaime thought as he shook mud off his gilded hand. Part of him wanted to tear the thing off and fling it in the river. It was good for nothing, and the left was not much better. Ser Ilyn had gone back to the horses, leaving him to find his own feet. At least I still have two of those. (AFfC, Jaime V)

Edmure Tully had collapsed facedown on the scaffold when Ser Ilyn's blade sheared the rope in two. A foot of hemp still dangled from the noose about his neck. Strongboar grabbed the end of it and pulled him to his feet. "A fish on a leash," he said, chortling. "There's a sight I never saw before." (AFfC, Jaime VI)

Dunk wonders whether it would have been worthwhile to lose a foot if it meant sparing the life of Prince Baelor; Septon Meribald has bare, black feet that are "gnarled and hard as tree roots," squishers have webbed feet. And then there are feet as units of measure: Ser Clarence Crabb and Gregor Clegane were eight feet tall. 

If the theory is correct, I suspect that references to feet tell us we are dealing with something out of a legend. "Legend" is a word that appears 100 times in the books (so far) and may also appear in hidden ways such as references to "Gendel" and Gorne. Tall characters may be legendary figures - the have more "feet" than the average man. But a Jaime POV tells us the White Book of the King's Guard is two feet tall and one-and-a-half feet wide - perhaps signaling that there are legends of heroism contained within. 

I recently pondered whether GRRM intended for readers to compare the region of Dorne to a "foot" on the "body" of Westeros. If so, wordplay on feet and legends might help us to understand the unique relationship between these lands and the rest of the seven kingdoms. Prince Doran suffers from gout, of course, and is unable to use his feet. A cure for his gout might signal the beginning of a healthier relationship between Dorne and the rest of Westeros. 

The possible rain / Reyne / Rhaenys / Rhaena wordplay is the least developed of the puns in this post.

I have been searching for clues about a very fundamental layer of the ASOIAF story: if ice and fire are important, what are the other basic elements of this world? Blood? Water? Light? Color? Stone? Wind? Dirt? Jewels? Glass? Shadow? Seeds? Roots? Rain? 

I have long been intrigued by possible hidden meanings in the trio of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives, Visenya and Rhaenys. Why did Rhaenys disappear? Why did Aegon like her better than Visenya? Why did her descendants survive as the Targaryen rulers? Are there clues in the other "Rhaen-" queens and ladies that could provide insights about Rhaenys?

It struck me recently that there might be hints in the sound-alike "Rhaen-" names and the rain motif built around the Reynes of Castamere. Maybe the word "reign" should also be in the mix, if we are examining Targaryen queens. 

We know that the author intended a pun on "rain" and "House Reyne," as the song The Rains of Castamere refers to the drowning of that House as punishment for their disrespectful behavior toward House Lannister. 

If there is a link between rain, House Reyne and the Targaryen queens, my guess is that it has to do with the imbalance of seasons and the cycle of plant growth and death. (See my other posts about green and brown symbolism for more thoughts about this.) Does Tywin's treatment of House Reyne amount to the banishing of rain? He diverts a river into their home - maybe the symbolism involves flooding, not drought. But that would not be a very subtle cause and effect, so I suspect there is something less obvious but still related to that fundamental layer of Westeros conflict, older and deeper buried than the conflict over the Iron Throne. 

The great sentinel was right there at the top of the ridge, where Will had known it would be, its lowest branches a bare foot off the ground. Will slid in underneath, flat on his belly in the snow and the mud, and looked down on the empty clearing below.(AGOT PROLOGUE)

[HoodedCrow]

There are feet in poetry...

[Wizz-The-Smith]

40 minutes ago, Seams said:

"Defeat" and "de-feet" is probably an intentional pun. Dunk is not "defeated" in the Trial of Seven (and, thus, keeps both of his feet). 

And I bet the connotation of "feat," as you point out, is part of the mix. 

So clever, that GRRM.

Nice. Could the cutting down of trees/weirwoods be a de-feeting? 

Thinking the Andals cutting down the weirwoods in defeating the First Men. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Wizz-The-Smith

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Quote

The rattle of iron made his ears prick up. His brother heard it too. They raced through the undergrowth toward the sound. Bounding across the still water at the foot of the old white one, he caught the scent of a stranger, the man-smell well mixed with leather and earth and iron. (Bran III, ACOK)

Foot as root of a weirwood and possible Old One connection?  

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Nadden said:

Is Theon Ned’s sword?

Yes. 

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

On 6/2/2021 at 7:20 PM, Seams said:

Rain / Reyne / Rhaenys / Rhaena 

(Snip)

This wordplay stems from "reine," the French word for queen.  Feminist themes and symbolism pop up amongst characters involved in the wordplay:

• Women in power and in particular (this being a patriarchal society) them being dispossessed, especially in favor of a man.
• Sometimes their "overthrowing" is literal.  Women falling from towers, out of the sky.
• Gold and silver image-play, gold and silver being traditionally associated with the sun and moon/the masculine and the feminine.  (Gold and silver in the story also symbolize fire and ice/water as well, which are masculine and feminine dichotomies on the alchemical Star of David.)
• Lilith imagery, sometimes involving "barrenness" in some way, usually by their children being murdered; sometimes involving accusations of sacrifice of children and/or witchcraft.

Examples:

Rhaenyra Targaryen : Her struggle against her younger brother and patriarchal norms for the throne.  Most of her children perish during the Dance.  The stillbirth of her daughter caused some accusations of witchcraft.

Rhaena Targaryen : Born first, but she and her daughters were passed over in favor of her younger brother, Jaehaerys. Given Harrenhal in her later years, where she suffered from loneliness and depression.  (Notice the "barren" imagery in the latter with regard to Harrenhal/friendlessness/childlessness.

Rhaenys Targaryen (Aegon I's wife) : Sometimes sat on the throne during court, as did her sister, in place of Aegon.  She and Meraxes died over Hellholt; Meraxes was gold and silver.  There's also symbolism to be gathered from WHERE they died - in Dorne, where men and women have equal rights.

Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegar & Elia's daughter) : I think something can be gathered by the fact that her mother is from Dorne and that she was first born.  It's something I have mentally bookmarked and hope to hear more about in Winds.  (I think it might involve Rhaenys being named heir, but we'll see...)

Reynes of Castamere:  Essentially, a conflict between Ellyn Tarbeck and Tywin Lannister for power.  Note the Lannister and Reyne sigils, where there is gold and silver image-play.  The Lannister sigil is a gold lion on a red field, the Reyne sigil is a red lion on a silver field.  That is, the sigils are inversions of one another and the gold and silver interchanged.

[Isobel Harper]

15 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

This wordplay stems from "reine," the French word for queen.  Feminist themes and symbolism pop up amongst characters involved in the wordplay:

• Women in power and in particular (this being a patriarchal society) them being dispossessed, especially in favor of a man.
• Sometimes their "overthrowing" is literal.  Women falling from towers, out of the sky.
• Gold and silver image-play, gold and silver being traditionally associated with the sun and moon/the masculine and the feminine.  (Gold and silver in the story also symbolize fire and ice/water as well, which are masculine and feminine dichotomies on the alchemical Star of David.)
• Lilith imagery, sometimes involving "barrenness" in some way, usually by their children being murdered; sometimes involving accusations of sacrifice of children and/or witchcraft.

Examples:

Rhaenyra Targaryen : Her struggle against her younger brother and patriarchal norms for the throne.  Most of her children perish during the Dance.  The stillbirth of her daughter caused some accusations of witchcraft.

Rhaena Targaryen : Born first, but she and her daughters were passed over in favor of her younger brother, Jaehaerys. Given Harrenhal in her later years, where she suffered from loneliness and depression.  (Notice the "barren" imagery in the latter with regard to Harrenhal/friendlessness/childlessness.

Rhaenys Targaryen (Aegon I's wife) : Sometimes sat on the throne during court, as did her sister, in place of Aegon.  She and Meraxes died over Hellholt; Meraxes was gold and silver.  There's also symbolism to be gathered from WHERE they died - in Dorne, where men and women have equal rights.

Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegar & Elia's daughter) : I think something can be gathered by the fact that her mother is from Dorne and that she was first born.  It's something I have mentally bookmarked and hope to hear more about in Winds.  (I think it might involve Rhaenys being named heir, but we'll see...)

Reynes of Castamere:  Essentially, a conflict between Ellyn Tarbeck and Tywin Lannister for power.  Note the Lannister and Reyne sigils, where there is gold and silver image-play.  The Lannister sigil is a gold lion on a red field, the Reyne sigil is a red lion on a silver field.  That is, the sigils are inversions of one another and the gold and silver interchanged.

You can see other feminist archetypes under other name themes.  These women will share a mix and match of some of these qualifiers.

Helen : Laena Velaryon, Helaena Targaryen, Ellyn Tarbeck, Layna the innkeeper's daughter, Alayne Stone (ref: Sansa's right to Harrenhal/Sansa being accused of witchcraft).

Dan/Daen : Daenerys, Daena the Defiant, Danny Flint, Danelle Lothston.

Some women will also stand out on their own; Rohanne Webber, for instance.  She's a strong minded woman who holds a seat of power.  Like Lilith, she is accused of witchcraft and sacrificing of children.  There's also the LITERAL accumulation of something associated with the feminine in alchemy: water.  She dams all the water in the area for herself and her people.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Isobel Harper

[Isobel Harper]

On 6/2/2021 at 7:20 PM, Seams said:

Myths / Smith

[snip]

Wordsmith!  

Remember Septa Mordane's comments on Arya's hands?  "Sansa has beautiful hands and can sew well, but Arya has the hands of a blacksmith."  Truly, sewing and smithing are similar skills, just bifurcated into feminine and masculine in a gender binary society: Shaping the world, making art, improving things.  Sewing also has the association with diplomacy, in a sense "smithing" with words.  Forming alliances and trade, healing others, offering friendship.

Also, one may regard the triple gods and triple goddess as parallel deities, just assigned (and limited to) the gender binary.  Think of the Crone and the Smith as parallel.  The Crone is the storyteller, the myth maker, shaping the society through legend.  The Smith is similar, just more literal.  

[Nadden]

On 4/20/2016 at 4:22 PM, Seams said:

Good observations. There is so much horse-related stuff to reexamine, if the "whores" connection is correct. It will be interesting to see how the references differ between male and female characters. It would make sense that Cersei would see her rival for power as a "Horse" and, given her plan to frame Margaery for infidelity, as a "whore" at the same time. I think sometimes the pun is implied (LIke using the word filly, instead of horse), even if GRRM doesn't write out the exact sound-alike word.

Yes, I think Jon calls that horse Sweet Lady. I am starting to try to notice uses of the word "sweet," as it comes up a lot. I don't know if it links people to sweet foods (lemon cakes? fruit?) or to words like west or stew and steward. Or none of the above. It may be a straightforward term of endearment with no deeper meaning.

This is terrific! I also enjoyed your write vs. wight analysis on the Bran's Growing Powers thread. I hope you don't mind if I paraphrase it here? You noted the William Shakespeare was arrested for poaching in real life, as was the character Will in the AGoT prologue, that Gared's name could be a play on Edgar (Allan Poe) and you and - I'm not 100% clear who began the post and who was commenting - Ravenous Reader? - noted that Ser Waymar (who is wearing a marten fur cloak) could be a play on GRR Martin. Really nice catches!

How about this for “Waymar”? Royce marred the way when he did this…, ““Gods!” he heard behind him. A sword slashed at a branch as Ser Waymar Royce gained the ridge. He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.” Should take the lords name in vain:)

For fun picture this: The sentinel tree is Lord Sauron (“branches grabbed at his longsword and tugged on his splendid sable cloak”.) and Waymar is Isildur. Waymar’s broken sword makes a nice stand in for Narsil. Waymar cuts the “ring” from the sentinel’s finger:) Guess who the ring is….??? The ring is found by somebody who lives along time in a cave(Golem/Bloodraven). Uncle (Bilbo/ Benjen) gives the “ring” to (Frodo/Jon), who both happen to have a friend named Sam. Later, they meet up with (Pippin/Pyp) and (Merry/Grenn?) and go on a (grand quest/great ranging). The answer: Ghost!:)

 

[Nadden]

On 4/12/2016 at 10:05 AM, evita mgfs said:

Abel / Brother of Cain and Able to do the job.

 

Waymar Royce / “Way More” arrogant, knowing, and dressed

 

Will / Will to succeed / Short for William Shakespeare

 

Gared – GAR / ED = EDGAR Allan Poe

 

MARTIN and NOMENCLATURE

 

WILL and GARED in the “PROLOGUE” from A GAME of THRONES

 

Will and Gared may be dispensable, “generic” rangers on a fatal mission whose lives are forfeit because of their inexperienced commander Ser Waymar Royce, but Martin names them with purpose as a way to honor and thank two authors who inspire his prose fiction in A Song of Ice and Fire Series. The appearance of the names Will and Gared in the first “Prologue” of a voluminous series of novels speaks to the degree of gratitude Martin owes his sources.

 

First, Will is short for “William”, or for “William Shakespeare”, the celebrated English writer whose works still have universal appeal hundreds of years after his death. It is no secret that Martin borrows from “the bard”, and among Shakespeare’s many poetic plays that Martin alludes to in conflicts, plot elements, and language, The Tragedy of Julius Caesar ranks high as the source material Martin prefers, putting his own “spin” on ideas and themes throughout his fantasy novels.

 

To convey Will’s association with Shakespeare, Martin includes details pertaining to Will’s crime of poaching a deer that parallels similar events Shakespeare biographers debate happened to young Will Shakespeare before his arrival in London.

 

Martin says of Will’s crime:

 

“Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night’s Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters’ own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters’ own bucks, and it had been a choice of putting on the black or losing a hand” (AGoT).

 

Likewise, William Shakespeare trespasses on Sir Thomas Lucy’s property to kill a deer. In the article “In Search of Shakespeare: The Poaching Myth 1598”, a PBS.org author writes:

 

“Though the tale is widely discredited today, three seventeenth-century accounts claim that Shakespeare was once beaten and imprisoned for poaching [a deer]. The alleged crime took place on land belonging to Sir Thomas Lucy - one of Walsingham's and Elizabeth's chief enforcers”. [http://www.pbs.org/shakespeare/events/event83.html]].

 

Although Will and Will share like crimes, their punishments are quite different. Ranger Will chooses an option that will take him a lifetime to repay, but he prefers becoming a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch over losing his hand, which is an early allusion to the stigma associated with disfigurement in Martin’s world of ice and fire.

 

Second, the name “Gared” has an unusual spelling, one not Americanized with a “J”. However, Martin aspires to create memorable characters, and he alters spellings of familiar names to give them a medieval flare. Analyzing the spelling of “Gared” requires some mental creativity: when readers divide “Gared” into two syllables, GAR / ED, and transpose them, one with the other, the “revised” appellation is EDGAR, the first name of American author and poet Edgar Allan Poe.

 

Of course, the obvious inspiration Martin takes from Poe is Lord Commander Mormont’s talking raven, a character that owes a debt of gratitude to Poe’s poem “The Raven”. The title bird flies in a window and perches on a bust of Athena, and he punctuates any question the narrator poses by saying hauntingly “Nevermore!” The narrator asks the raven if he will ever see his dead lover Lenore: quothe the raven, “Nevermore!”

 

Furthermore, Poe’s favorite thematic inclusion in several of his short stories is the death of a beautiful woman. In Martin’s I & F Series, the death of Lyanna Stark haunts Ned and figures in many other character arcs throughout the novels.

 

How about this for “Waymar”? Royce marred the way when he did this…, ““Gods!” he heard behind him. A sword slashed at a branch as Ser Waymar Royce gained the ridge. He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.” Should take the lords name in vain:)

For fun picture this: The sentinel tree is Lord Sauron (“branches grabbed at his longsword and tugged on his splendid sable cloak”.) and Waymar is Isildur. Waymar’s broken sword makes a nice stand in for Narsil. Waymar cuts the “ring” from the sentinel’s finger:) Guess who the ring is….??? The ring is found by somebody who lives along time in a cave(Golem/Bloodraven). Uncle (Bilbo/ Benjen) gives the “ring” to (Frodo/Jon), who both happen to have a friend named Sam. Later, they meet up with (Pippin/Pyp) and (Merry/Grenn?) and go on a (grand quest/great ranging). The answer: Ghost!:)

[Nadden]

Can I get some help to expand this metaphor between LOTR and AGOT

How about this for “Waymar”? Royce marred the way when he did this…, ““Gods!” he heard behind him. A sword slashed at a branch as Ser Waymar Royce gained the ridge. He stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.” Should take the lords name in vain:)

For fun picture this: The sentinel tree is Lord Sauron (“branches grabbed at his longsword and tugged on his splendid sable cloak”.) and Waymar is Isildur. Waymar’s broken sword makes a nice stand in for Narsil. Waymar cuts the “ring” from the sentinel’s finger:) Guess who the ring is….??? The ring is found by somebody who lives along time in a cave(Golem/Bloodraven). Uncle (Bilbo/ Benjen) gives the “ring” to (Frodo/Jon), who both happen to have a friend named Sam. Later, they meet up with (Pippin/Pyp) and (Merry/Grenn?) and go on a (grand quest/great ranging). The answer: Ghost!:)

To further the metaphor: (Sauron/ Sentinel tree) Has his spirit leave him and is now represented by a “Burning blue eye”. 

The Two Trees of Valinor Laurelin and Telperion(Sun and Moon)/Ironwood tree and Sentinel Tree? (From AGOT prologue)

The Destrier(From the prologue)/Ungoliant the giant spider. The Destrier was tied to it when it got struck by lightning (I’m sure that stung)and became the stump and ironwood bridge. His entrails were hanging out later in ASOS.

Melkor / Other??

Mirkwood/ Haunted forest??

Soooo …..all Jon needs to do is take “Ghost to Mount Doom”.