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On 1/20/2023 at 11:10 PM, Mourning Star said:

I can't help but point out that The Tower of Joy, "Joyous Gard" in Arthurian legend, was previously called the "Dolorous Gard" before it is renamed by Lancelot, and reverts to this name after he breaks with Arthur.

Just noticed that this mirrors the dichotomy of Stark joy and sorrow. Starks are solemn, stern and long-faced but Lyanna may have been the Knight of the Laughing Tree and was taken to the Tower of Joy. Frozen Eddard Stark takes the smiling Theon as a hostage to his father's good behaviour. Theon goes from being a "smiler" to becoming a tortured unhappy man. I'm also reminded of Patchface whose original purpose was to get Stannis to laugh and of the Shrouded Lord who grants anyone who makes him laugh a fool. 

Doloros Edd fits the somber Stark image but is also quite witty too - doloros / delirious. Perhaps Doloros Edd symbolizes the balance between joy and sorrow. 

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9 hours ago, Evolett said:

When the moon has drowned and come again is set as the date for the kingsmoot. The drowned moon must be the new moon / black moon and come again could indicate the first slim sicle shape that appears after the new moon.  The reflection of the moon that shatters and reforms in the Womb of the World could also be part of this. Jorah Mormont is nearby. We need to look for more moon allusions regarding the Mormonts. 

Nice.

I wonder whether arakhs and other curved blades are supposed to be like sickles and, therefore, symbolic of the moon being reborn? Daario carries an arakh and a Myrish stiletto.  (The second blade may be the only stiletto in the book. This might be wordplay on a stiletto heel or on a toilet - taken together with "Myrish," an anagram could refer to a shit toilet. This might be a Jaime Lannister parallel, as he is famously associated with shit for honor and a privy is now located where he knelt to join the kingsguard. His right hand was taken off with an arakh. This sounds like a digression but Jaime was betrothed to Lysa who is strongly associated with the Moon Door. In a long-ago thread, the forum worked out that outhouses traditionally have crescent moons on the doors and a person exposes their "moon" when sitting on the seat. So the two blades could represent the new moon and the toilet moon - about to drown.) Dany is very attracted to Daario and to his sensuous matched blades. Maybe she's really attracted to the new moon of his curved blade?

While Ser Jorah is an unattractive moon about to set. She flushes him by sending him on a mission into the sewers. 

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On 1/20/2023 at 9:59 PM, Seams said:

I have also speculated that ships are like eggs: Tyrion "hatches" from the cracked hull of the storm-tossed Selaesori Qhoran and Arya may hatch from the purple galley The Titan's Daughter

Was just thinking of this as I came across this line on my re-read of ASOS, from Littlefinger:

Quote

Lord Tywin turned back to Littlefinger. "If Lysa Arryn will take you for a husband and return to the king's peace, we shall restore the Lord Robert to the honor of Warden of the East. How soon might you leave?"

"On the morrow, if the winds permit. There's a Braavosi galley standing out past the chain, taking on cargo by boat. The Merling King. I'll see her captain about a berth."

Ships and eggs, eggs and birth / berth. 

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21 hours ago, Seams said:

I wonder whether arakhs and other curved blades are supposed to be like sickles and, therefore, symbolic of the moon being reborn?

21 hours ago, Seams said:

Daario carries an arakh and a Myrish stiletto.  (The second blade may be the only stiletto in the book.

This might be wordplay on a stiletto heel or on a toilet - taken together with "Myrish," an anagram could refer to a shit toilet. This might be a Jaime Lannister parallel, as he is famously associated with shit for honor and a privy is now located where he knelt to join the kingsguard. His right hand was taken off with an arakh. This sounds like a digression but Jaime was betrothed to Lysa who is strongly associated with the Moon Door. In a long-ago thread, the forum worked out that outhouses traditionally have crescent moons on the doors and a person exposes their "moon" when sitting on the seat. So the two blades could represent the new moon and the toilet moon - about to drown.) Dany is very attracted to Daario and to his sensuous matched blades. Maybe she's really attracted to the new moon of his curved blade?

While Ser Jorah is an unattractive moon about to set. She flushes him by sending him on a mission into the sewers. 

This post had me in stitches, especially the last line. Anyone new to the forum reading this will probably think we've completely lost our marbles :lol:

21 hours ago, Seams said:

Daario carries an arakh and a Myrish stiletto.  (The second blade may be the only stiletto in the book. This might be wordplay on a stiletto heel or on a toilet - taken together with "Myrish," an anagram could refer to a shit toilet.

Dario's stiletto really is the only one in the book. It reminded me of Ramsay's falchion, his skinning knife, also the only one of its kind in the series. My mind immediately went to the falcon connection - falcon/falchion - both words share the same Latin root - "falx" - curved blade, sickle. The falcon is thought to have been named for its curved beak, talons and/or wings.

The falcon is uniquely linked to the Arryn sigil - moon and falcon and also to the "fly or die" motif. Now that you mention the "flushing" aspect, Lysa's departure through the Moon Door would also be a flushing action, thus connecting the stiletto (toilet) with the Moon Door. (But this might not work, Lysa being associated with Lys, the stiletto being Myrish). The edieval privy located high up a castle could also be another "moon door." Also interesting, Dario's beard is dyed blue when Dany first meets him, perhaps another link to the Arryn sigil. 

21 hours ago, Seams said:

This might be a Jaime Lannister parallel, as he is famously associated with shit for honor and a privy is now located where he knelt to join the kingsguard. His right hand was taken off with an arakh. This sounds like a digression but Jaime was betrothed to Lysa who is strongly associated with the Moon Door.

The Arryn words are "As high as honor," which seems to focus on the falcon, making "shit for honor" the moon door perhaps. But Ramsay also has "shit for honor," Lysa too actually, suggesting the falcon and falchion are also opposites. The flushing aspect of the moon is also apparent in "moon blood" and "moon tea."

There's the Temple of the Moonsingers in Braavos which might be connected to Dario's two blades:

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That is the Temple of the Moonsingers.” It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel.

 Sounds like a depiction of the moon itself (the huge dome). The marble maidens flanking the Gates to the Moon, supporting what sounds like a cresent /sickle moon could be a parallel to Dario's blades with Dany being the cresent moon he is supporting with his blades. I wonder if we can tie Irri and Jiqui to Dario's blades? 

22 hours ago, Seams said:

While Ser Jorah is an unattractive moon about to set. She flushes him by sending him on a mission into the sewers. 

The "moon mort" wordplay and Jorah being flushed bring to mind Jamie rescuing Brienne from the black bear in the bear pit at Harrenhal. If bears are also moon symbols then this black bear which is later killed in the deep pit is another "setting" or fallen moon. 

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

This post had me in stitches, especially the last line. Anyone new to the forum reading this will probably think we've completely lost our marbles :lol:

I know people definitely think that about me! I'm glad to have company, though!

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

My mind immediately went to the falcon connection - falcon/falchion - both words share the same Latin root - "falx" - curved blade, sickle. The falcon is thought to have been named for its curved beak, talons and/or wings.

The falcon is uniquely linked to the Arryn sigil - moon and falcon and also to the "fly or die" motif.

Love this. Excellent insight.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

The "moon mort" wordplay and Jorah being flushed bring to mind Jamie rescuing Brienne from the black bear in the bear pit at Harrenhal. If bears are also moon symbols then this black bear which is later killed in the deep pit is another "setting" or fallen moon. 

This is the best link yet. Fantastic insight.

The Eyrie is built with marble quarried on Tarth and hauled up the mountain. I think there is something going on with blue, associated with Brienne as Renly's blue rainbow guard. She also had blue bardings on her horse before joining the rainbow guard and also comes from the Sapphire Isle.

The bear already killed Amory Lorch, if I recall correctly. Lorch and Ser Gregor were the main agents along with Jaime in killing the  last of the Targaryen royal family. I think Ser Gregor is a "green" character and Jaime possibly represents the setting sun. Not sure about the symbolism of Ser Amory, although others have commented on "Jaime" as the French "I love" and Amory as a possible variation on "amore." 

I suspect all of this relates to:

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"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

AGoT, Dany IX

Back to the bear pit. Pits are important symbols, including the meaning of a seed from which some fruits will grow. Brienne is closely associated with peach-eater Renly. Do we know what he did with the pit of the peach he ate in front of Stannis? We know that Ser Loras buried Renly at the roots of a tree. Maybe that's the symbolism of the gardener planting the pit.

Dany "bearing" a living child has to be relevant as well. 

If the cycle of the moon represents the cycle of life, death and rebirth, I think the necessary pieces of the cycle are falling into place. These could include the death of a bear (Mormont = moon mort), the rescue of the maiden (could be either Jaime or Brienne as they were in a bath = pool together), Ser Galladon of Morne, and the Evenstar sigil with quartered crescent moons and suns. 

I have lately wondered about a parallel between Ser Duncan the Tall and Beric Dondarrion. While I am a believer that Dunk is probably the bastard son of Daemon Blackfyre, I also see "storm" symbolism in him with his horse named Thunder. He also seems to die in each story so far but he is miraculously "saved" by some amazing intervention, much like Ser Beric. Brienne is a descendant of Dunk (per some SSM) and is also a Stormlander. In The Sworn Sword, the sun rises in the west when Wat's Wood is set on fire and the people at Standfast mistake it for sunrise.

So I bet that Storms End plays into the symbolism as well. Maybe Brienne luring Jaime away from Pennytree will lead to the "sun" setting in the east. 

I guess this is a little weak on linear thinking and more of a brainstorming response. Still some work to be done to clarify.

Maybe I should stick with toilets and stilettos, as that seems to be my area of expertise. You might say I really know my shit.

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On 1/23/2023 at 3:23 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

I had a thought about this thread today. How many members have only read the books in languages other than English?  Does all the wordplay we post here make sense to you guys?

Would be interesting to hear an opinion on this, true.

@Phylum of Alexandria - this might interest you. 

I read the entire series and companion books in English but watched the show in German. While I have not payed active attention to wordplay in the TV-series, certain translations did stand out to me. A good example is Criston Cole. Until HotU, I used to think „cole“  perhaps as connected to „coal.“ Cole was translated to „Kraut“ however, indicating we should be thinking of cruciferous vegetables, including the cole family when we read „Cole,“ but I never thought of that before. Kraut in German means „herb,“ but also cabbage. All types of cabbage are „Kraut“ but as in English, Kraut is also unified under „Kohl.“   The cole/cabbage link thus become more apparent to me in the German translation. German „Kohle“ also translates to English „coal,“ together reflecting Criston’s switch from black (coal) to green (cole).
There is also the use of German “wanderer” for “walker.” I commented on that earlier in this thread.

Since many European languages share the same roots, those interested in investigating wordplay in other languages might come to similar conclusions by examining the etymology of the words. Weirwood is an example, translated in German to „Wehrholz.“ Holz = wood. Weir and Wehr share the same root (wer / werian), originally meaning a dam-like structure built across rivers or streams to control the flow of water. But the "wer" root also means defence and in fact, while English has retained the dam meaning, the defence aspect has been largely lost. In English, weir also refers to a kind of fence set into a river to catch fish.

Not so in German. Here „wehr“ carries both the dam and defence meaning, with wehr as in defence forming many different words. Wehren = to defend. The fire service is „Feuerwehr,“ Military Service is „Wehrdienst“ and non-German speakers will be familiar with „Wehrmacht,“ Hitler’s armed forces in WWII. That word is taboo in the context of the modern army and is only used in conjunction with WWII history.

So Wehrholz could be "wood that defends". A language-aware German-speaker interested in interpretation would immediately think of „wehrholz“ in terms of a defence-system, rather than a weir dam. Running weir and wehr through Google Translate, I get the impression that this goes for many other European languages. I would like to know how „weirwood“ has been translated in other languages.

We can perhaps figure out the function of the weirwood-system from these three meanings and come close to the truth imo,

a.       Weir - a defence-system (appropriate – CotF – kept watch by looking through the eyes of the trees. What were they watching out for? >> Asha talks of the CotF turning the trees into warriors. Northmen are camouflaged as trees when they take Deepwood Motte back from the Ironborn (who are invaders from the sea). 
 

b.       Weir – a dam that controls water flow. Why? > To deprive enemy water-entities of their medium? To drown enemies? To stop enemies – invaders capable of sailing or swimming up rivers >> enemies emerging from inland lakes, enemies from the sea? Is there textual evidence for this? >> Weirwoods are often near waterbodies > Winterfell weirwood near a pool / hot pools. God’s Eye – large grove of weirwoods in a huge lake. Weirwood at the Crofter’s village. Nightfort - Weirwood door at bottom of a well, young weirwood at top of well. Young weirwood at Crackclaw Point by the sea plus story of squishers.
 

c.       Weir – a fence structure used to catch fish >> related to b. In relation to defence, this brings to mind squishers and deep ones.

There is power in a weirwood. Is the author also drawing on the negative connotations of Wehrmacht (macht means power) and what does this imply in respect of the weirwood?

Some other avenues of investigation springing from this would be a closer look at Rohanne Webber’s dam which was constructed of wood (The Sworn Sword).

Why Arya is a pink otter swimming through the God’s Eye lake? Though otters don’t build dams, they use abandoned dams to shelter from predators.

How is Greywater Watch linked to this? Are there no weirwoods in the Neck, do the crannogmen watch instead of the trees?

So that’s one example of how translations into other languages can work, or even clarify the underlying meaning of a term in English.

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I've been thinking for some time now that antler imagery in the story relates to tree branches. So the tales about the green men having antlers is a corruption of their being walking tree men, male guardians of the weirwood. Same for Garth Greenhand, though he can sometimes stand in for weirwood/greenseeing magic more generally. 

Just glancing at a sigil that I didn't immediately recognize, I saw a possible clue that I might be onto something. Which house has the giant antlered bull moose (and House words quite similar to House Baratheon)?

House "Hornwood."  :D

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On 1/24/2023 at 2:17 PM, Evolett said:

German „Kohle“ also translates to English „coal,“ together reflecting Criston’s switch from black (coal) to green (cole).

This is fantastic. Very nice catch.

There is a lot going on with changes from leaves to humus to dirt and then nourishing tree roots and entering the trees again. The carbon cycle, I guess it's called. So coal that turns to Kohl is an excellent symbol of the change from one state of being to another.

On 1/24/2023 at 2:17 PM, Evolett said:

I would like to know how „weirwood“ has been translated in other languages.

This whole section of your post is so helpful!

I noticed that GRRM uses "pale cold" and other references to pale and pails. Others in the forum said pails have to do with moon symbolism (I forget why) but I noticed that LC Mormont orders that a palisade be built around the ringfort at the Fist - "palisade" is derived from the noun "pale" meaning a sharpened stick used in a fence. When Jon Snow leaves the ring fort, he tells the guard he is going to fetch water for Mormont but notes that the guard didn't even ask why he had no pail. 

I bet all of this comes back to the defense system linked to wehr / weir. 

And you are definitely right to mention Lady Rohanne Webber's dam made out of trees. Lots of pieces come together all of a sudden!

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57 minutes ago, Seams said:

This is fantastic. Very nice catch.

There is a lot going on with changes from leaves to humus to dirt and then nourishing tree roots and entering the trees again. The carbon cycle, I guess it's called. So coal that turns to Kohl is an excellent symbol of the change from one state of being to another.

This whole section of your post is so helpful!

I noticed that GRRM uses "pale cold" and other references to pale and pails. Others in the forum said pails have to do with moon symbolism (I forget why) but I noticed that LC Mormont orders that a palisade be built around the ringfort at the Fist - "palisade" is derived from the noun "pale" meaning a sharpened stick used in a fence. When Jon Snow leaves the ring fort, he tells the guard he is going to fetch water for Mormont but notes that the guard didn't even ask why he had no pail. 

I bet all of this comes back to the defense system linked to wehr / weir. 

And you are definitely right to mention Lady Rohanne Webber's dam made out of trees. Lots of pieces come together all of a sudden!

Pale (pails) and buckets now get a little tick mark in my head, as a connecting point. Which in turn links The Wull (nickname Buckets) as a "pale figure". House Wull's sigil has three buckets if I recall, so that's three 'pale' figures containing water: possible bit of Others symbolism?

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I'm still working my way through A Storm of Swords audio "reread". This struck me yesterday:

Quote

"I'm SAM," the black thing sobbed. "Sam, Sam, I'm Sam, let me out, you stabbed me . . ." He rolled through the puddle of moonlight, flailing and flopping in the tangles of Meera's net. Hodor was still shouting, "Hodor hodor hodor."

It was Jojen who fed the sticks to the fire and blew on them until the flames leapt up crackling. Then there was light, and Bran saw the pale thin-faced girl by the lip of the well, all bundled up in furs and skins beneath an enormous black cloak, trying to shush the screaming baby in her arms. The thing on the floor was pushing an arm through the net to reach his knife, but the loops wouldn't let him. 

...

Sam was staring at him. "You're Jon Snow's brother. The one who fell . . ."

"No," said Jojen. "That boy is dead."

"Don't tell," Bran warned. "Please."

Sam looked confused for a moment, but finally he said, "I . . . I can keep a secret. Gilly too." When he looked at her, the girl nodded. "Jon . . . Jon was my brother too. He was the best friend I ever had, but he went off with Qhorin Halfhand to scout the Frostfangs and never came back. We were waiting for him on the Fist when . . . when . . ."

"Jon's here," Bran said. "Summer saw him. He was with some wildlings, but they killed a man and Jon took his horse and escaped. I bet he went to Castle Black."

Sam turned big eyes on Meera. "You're certain it was Jon? You saw him?"

"I'm Meera," Meera said with a smile. "Summer is . . ."

A shadow detached itself from the broken dome above and leapt down through the moonlight. Even with his injured leg, the wolf landed as light and quiet as a snowfall. The girl Gilly made a frightened sound and clutched her babe so hard against her that it began to cry again.

ASoS, Bran IV

I'm wondering whether there is wordplay on "Sam + Meera = Summer"? It's not an exact fit, so there must be more to it, but GRRM seems to go to some trouble to have them introduced to each other (Sam is caught in Meera's net) and to show Gilly coming out of the well while the direwolf Summer jumps down from the dome. 

Sam pushing his arm through the net is somewhat similar to the arms of Melisandre's shadow baby reaching out of her womb at Storm's End, just recalled by Davos in a nearby POV:

Quote

He saw it still in his nightmares, the gaunt black hands pushing against her thighs as it wriggled free of her swollen womb. 

ASoS, Davos II

Gilly is wrapped in furs (another fur stranger?) and she holds her baby. Summer is a shadow that detaches from the broken dome (swollen womb?). Seems like a Melisandre allusion. How does it relate to Sam and Meera?

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1 hour ago, Seams said:
On 1/24/2023 at 8:17 PM, Evolett said:

German „Kohle“ also translates to English „coal,“ together reflecting Criston’s switch from black (coal) to green (cole).

This is fantastic. Very nice catch.

Thanks. I don't know why this didn't occur to me the last time we discussed it.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

There is a lot going on with changes from leaves to humus to dirt and then nourishing tree roots and entering the trees again. The carbon cycle, I guess it's called. So coal that turns to Kohl is an excellent symbol of the change from one state of being to another.

This is great too. Thinking of the Dance, at the end of the war, the cycle is restored with green marrying black. Perhaps the war was a symbolic fight over dominance of the cycle.. hm, a new thought. 

 

50 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Pale (pails) and buckets now get a little tick mark in my head, as a connecting point. Which in turn links The Wull (nickname Buckets) as a "pale figure". House Wull's sigil has three buckets if I recall, so that's three 'pale' figures containing water: possible bit of Others symbolism?

Your recent thread came to mind at once on reading @Seams post. Link here for reference.

But I'm not sure wull / wall / well and buckets share the same symbolism with pale, pale (stake), pail,  and palisade. Palisade and wall are both fencings but different. I'll have to think about it. 

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On 1/30/2023 at 8:44 AM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I've been thinking for some time now that antler imagery in the story relates to tree branches. So the tales about the green men having antlers is a corruption of their being walking tree men, male guardians of the weirwood.

In the Prologue of AGOT, Waymar slashes at the branches that were reaching and grabbing at his longsword. And later his sword shatters when it meets a sword symbolically described as lighting. Here’s the description of Waymar’s longsword from Will. “…the end was splintered and twisted like a trees struck by lightning.” And here’s the Other longsword’s description:

”In its hand was a long sword, like none that will have ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

”The pale sword came shivering through the air.”

”…there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing.”

danced with pale blue light

Now I believe that the broken sword, hilt, described as a splintered and twisted tree can be more accurately thought of as a tree stump; of which we get in the next scene. In the center of the square is a hard, black, ironwood stump (Iron, hard and black, like Waymar’s sword). In fact, we get some similar action when it meets an “Ice” sword (Ned’s greatsword). We get Gared’s blood spraying out across the snow.

Note: Ned’s greatsword “Ice” is black/red like the ironwood and the redwood(sentinel).

Now I also believe that Waymar’s sword, described as having needles, before it shattered was symbolic of the sentinel tree in the prologue. The thing to understand is that the needles were still all together and had not yet shattered when Will was lost amongst them.

So the two trees (ironwood and sentinel)  in the Prologue are symbolic of Waymar’s longsword before/after it is destroyed. The ironwood stump in the Bran 1 chapter symbolizes the longsword’s hilt; but the difference in this chapter is that the needles or shards come together. They make up the ironwood bridge at the end of the chapter. And the sentinel, symbolic of Waymar’s sword before it shatters, also does the opposite in this Bran 1 chapter. The needles or shards scatter. The thing symbolizing the the sentinel in this chapter is the dead mother direwolf, who pups are the scattering shards.

I believe the dead mother direwolf’s is analogous to both Cerberus, guardian of the underworld, and Garmr, who kills Thor (God of lightning) in Ragnarok. A sentinel by definition can also be: a person or thing that watches or stands as if watching. And, obviously, Thor is associated with lightning.

I said all that to arrive at the antler in the mother direwolf. The “shattered” one that Ned held up, seemingly like a sword, for all to see. The one that was already “Shattered” and like Waymar’s sword, figuratively the ironwood tree (though we didn’t see it shatter. We just know they made a bridge out of it). These all seem to be symbolic parallels. The mother direwolf and the sentinel tree seem to be the other parallel elements. And just like the ironwood tree and the sentinel tree are symbolic of Waymar’s sword before and after it is broken so is the mother direwolf and the stag symbolic of the pup later named Ghost I believe.
 

 The stag and the mother direwolf were rustling, like living trees.

Anyways, I hope I’ve given you some good thoughts. But I think you need to include swords.

 


 

 

Edited by Nadden
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On 1/24/2023 at 2:17 PM, Evolett said:

Since many European languages share the same roots, those interested in investigating wordplay in other languages might come to similar conclusions by examining the etymology of the words. Weirwood is an example, translated in German to „Wehrholz.“ Holz = wood. Weir and Wehr share the same root (wer / werian), originally meaning a dam-like structure built across rivers or streams to control the flow of water. But the "wer" root also means defence and in fact, while English has retained the dam meaning, the defence aspect has been largely lost. In English, weir also refers to a kind of fence set into a river to catch fish.

Not so in German. Here „wehr“ carries both the dam and defence meaning, with wehr as in defence forming many different words. Wehren = to defend. The fire service is „Feuerwehr,“ Military Service is „Wehrdienst“ and non-German speakers will be familiar with „Wehrmacht,“ Hitler’s armed forces in WWII. That word is taboo in the context of the modern army and is only used in conjunction with WWII history.

This is great. I'm guessing this German "wehr" is a different root than "wer," the Old English word for man? 

Having only read the books in English, my mind jumped to the pop culture horror side of it. Tree with humanlike face = were-wood. Not to mention, the Starks are linked to direwolves as well as to the trees, and the humans who enter the minds of wolves are "skinchangers," a term GRRM has previously used for werewolves. So maybe one reason for the term weirwood is to conjure up links between trees and wolves, and the men who possess them.

Also, I think someone has mentioned it was possibly a loving reference to the Grateful Dead's Bob Weir? :D

Edited by Phylum of Alexandria
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13 hours ago, Nadden said:

Anyways, I hope I’ve given you some good thoughts. But I think you need to include swords.

 

Many good thoughts, thanks!

Someone else had mentioned how the Baratheon stag antlers call to mind lightning as well as tree branches. And that makes sense, given that fertility/vegetation gods are also storm gods. Lord of heavenly waters and light and all that. Given that Robert wielded a giant war hammer only strengthens the connection to Thor, god of storms and trees.

But the hammer also calls to mind the "Hammer of the Waters," which has yet to manifest in the story's plot proper. 

In Ironborn lore, the winter-reaper-coded Grey King brings lightning by taunting a storm god, and also destroys a tree that sounds a lot like a weirwood:

"It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh." --TWOIAF, The Iron Islands

This lightning coming down may be related to the Hammer of the Waters, which happened to flood the Iron Islands. Did the storm god trees bring the hammer down? How?

The whole Goodbrother content is fascinating as well, as House Goodbrother is covered in fertility god imagery. 

As for the Hammer, this passage from Aeron's journey to meet with House Goodbrother is rather suggestive:

"It was long after dark by the time the priest espied the spiky iron battlements of the Hammerhorn clawing at the crescent moon." --AFFC, The Prophet

There are other passages in the series with weirwoods and trees looking to reach and grab the sun or moon. To me, this is supportive of LmL's Moon Meteor Theory, but suggests that weirwoods are the particular medium for such destructive celestial events.

The Ironborn content also has lots of "brother killing brother" imagery, which ties back to the original Grey King/leal elder brother myth.

My guess is the "brothers" of the story are not really human, it's the Team Red/Blue/Green factions of weirwood entities, related but warring with one another, and roping in various humans and others to fight their battles.

******

The most prominent brother-killing-brother story in ASOIAF involves two characters with antlers: Stannis and Renly. One is coded for Team Red, the other for Team Green. Team Red's antler man uses his red sword of heroes to "stab" his Red Queen (who would look like a human weirwood when naked) and spews his life fires. Her moon-face opens in agony and ecstasy as she gives birth to great light and flame, followed by shadow. And Green-Garth is felled by the shadow, growing cold as the lights gutter out. 

Renly has seven mobile guardians around him, but one color was missing, presumably so as not to represent The Stranger. In the same chapter Renly dies, Catelyn sees a depiction of the Stranger as a shadow face. 

What was the missing color? Indigo. Curious that there are only 8 mentions of indigo in ACOK. One pertains to sunset in Jon VI, and one pertains to Cressen’s choker crystals from Asshai.

6 of the 8 mentions of indigo occur within the House of the Undying. One of these pertains to Rhaegar’s eye color, but the rest are reserved for the chamber of the Undying:

“A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light.”

“Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue.” 

“Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo.”

“But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror.”

“Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare.” 

Melisandre’s shadow magic, learned in Asshai, is linked by clever color-coding to the corrupted heart of the Undying, the heart of the Shade of the Evening tree’s power, which emanates indigo light.

To me this whole brother-killing portion of the story symbolizes the cataclysm that caused the Long Night, that turned the fertile Great Empire into the Shadowlands, and turned healthy sacred trees of that Dawn Empire into Shade-of-the-Evening trees.

******

Not too many swords in there, other than Stannis' member!

Perhaps there is some sexual symbolism to be found there though. Aside from the Azor Ahai story, which definitely has a sexual dimension to it, there's another detail in Renly's death that may also have a sexual connotation. Shortly before he's killed, he mentioned that Stannis considered using a trebuchet to fling the bodies of his own men who were unfaithful.

Trebuchets flinging bodies as well as boulders is a recurring image in the story, most prominently with the Three Whores, and the Six Sisters. In the case of the Three Whores, the people thrown are antler men. 

Three Whores and Six Sisters calls to mind the "Three Singers" passage from TWOIAF, which I take as an important clue about the tripart ancestry of the weirwoods:

"And Highgarden's lush green godswood is almost as renowned, for in the place of a single heart tree it boasts three towering, graceful, ancient weirwoods whose limbs have grown so entangled over the centuries that they appear to be almost a single tree with three trunks, reaching for each other above a tranquil pool. Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers  were planted by Garth Greenhand himself." -- TWOIAF, The Reach

and then there's this passage, which sounds strongly symbolic

“It was Garth who first taught men to farm, it is said. Before him, all men were hunters and gatherers, rootless wanderers forever in search of sustenance, until Garth gave them the gift of seed and showed them how to plant and sow, how to raise crops and reap the harvest. (In some tales, he tried to teach the elder races as well, but the giants roared at him and pelted him with boulders, whilst the children laughed and told him that the gods of the wood provided for all their needs).” — TWOIAF, The Reach

To me, the pelting of Garth with boulders has sexual connotation. Coupled with the idea of giant female-coded trebuchets flinging antler men as well as boulders, the notion of weirwoods sending off boulder-like seed pods or pulling in or astral bodies for some reproductive function seems like something we should seriously consider as a mechanism for the Hammer of the Waters, and the cataclysm that led to the Long Night.

I don't know what the icy lightning shattering the sword would be, but perhaps a more general celestial attack on Team Green weirwoods by Team Blue? Maybe specifically the males, those green sentinels keeping their silent watch? I dunno!

Edited by Phylum of Alexandria
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On 2/2/2023 at 2:45 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

This is great. I'm guessing this German "wehr" is a different root than "wer," the Old English word for man? 

 

Actually, the Proto-Indoeuropean root  "wer" along with later Old English and Old German derivatives has several different meanings, all of which potenially apply to the weirwood with its recognisable "wer" root.

There is PIE "wer" meaning "cover up," from which Old English "weir" as in a dam, fence and Old German "wehr" as in a dam and defence developed.

PIE "wer" is however also the hypothetical source for "perceive, watch out for," and words relating to guarding, seeing, protecting - also ward, warden, steward. 

PIE "wer" - also "to turn, bend, to become" (evident in German "werden" = to become). But it also applies to worms which "turn and bend."

Very interesting also is the PIE root meaning "to raise, lift, hold suspended." I'm thinking of all those references of weirwood branches appearing to reach out to the moon here. 

All  these relate to the weirwood.

 

On 2/2/2023 at 2:45 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Having only read the books in English, my mind jumped to the pop culture horror side of it. Tree with humanlike face = were-wood. Not to mention, the Starks are linked to direwolves as well as to the trees, and the humans who enter the minds of wolves are "skinchangers," a term GRRM has previously used for werewolves.

So yes, this another example. "Wer" as in "man" forming "werewolf," a man-wolf. Were-wood is a great connection in this regard. Were-wood = man wood. And guess what, GRRM has a character named "Manwoody" in the narrative. 

PIE "were-o" is the hypothetical root of Latin verus, meaning "true." This also seems fitting: one cannot lie in front of a heart tree.

 

The etymology of "wolf" and historical associations with the animal are also very relevant and worth considering.

"Wolf" and "wulf" developed from the PIE "wlkwo" which is also the source of Old Persian "Varkana." Varkana, also known as "Hyrcania" literally means "wolf land" and was a region near the Caspian Sea. Note the Var syllable in relation to Varamyr. Hyrcania may be the basis for GRRM's Hyrcoon. 

Though wolves were esteemed for their ferocity and courage, they were also feared for their predatory activities. The wolf was personified by young outlaws who preyed on society, often to exact vengeance. Wolf was once also synonymous with the devil, the demonic, the criminal, the man who turns on his brothers.

Also interesting and relevant is the wolf as a symbol of lust, in males symbolising the sexually aggressive man (wolf-blooded Brandon Stark as an example). Much earlier, this also applied to the equation of "prostitute" with "lupa, meaning" she-wolf  (Latin "lupus" = wolf) "Lupa" referred to a whore or sexually active female. 

Germanic "warg" has been rejected as meaning "werewolf" but the word "warg" is thought to have meant "strangler" at one point in time. "Warg" is certainly used in the context of "werewolf" in the novels though. 
In Old English, "wearg" referred to an accursed person.  What is certain is the term "warg" was used to denote an outcast. "Let him be warg" was said of men whose crimes were so heinous that they deserved being sent into exile as the severest punishment. 

All these associations relate to wargs / skinchangers and the Starks in one way or another. The warg as an outcast is fitting, the motif of the outcast also applying to the "Stranger" who is from far places and relevant also to @Seams "fur stranger" wordplay discovery we talked about earlier in this thread. I bet the missing indigo of Renly's guard is also part of this group of symbols, indigo being the outcast "stranger."

Further interesting finds include:

Old English beo wulf, literally "bee-wolf," "a wolf to bees;" a kenning for "bear." 

The name Randal, from Old English "randwulf" meaning "shield-wolf" ("rand" = shield). Randal reminds very much of Randyll (Randyll Tarly). 

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8 hours ago, Evolett said:

the word "warg" is thought to have meant "strangler"

Fascinating. Lots of potential meaning in this.

8 hours ago, Evolett said:

There is PIE "wer" meaning "cover up," from which Old English "weir" as in a dam, fence and Old German "wehr" as in a dam and defence developed.

PIE "wer" is however also the hypothetical source for "perceive, watch out for," and words relating to guarding, seeing, protecting - also ward, warden, steward. 

PIE "wer" - also "to turn, bend, to become" (evident in German "werden" = to become). But it also applies to worms which "turn and bend."

In my ASoS re-read, I just got through Ser Barristan discussing the madness of King Aerys with Dany. I bet dam / mad is a wordplay pair, and that would bring us back to this meaning of weir. 

Just before the chat with Ser Barristan, Dany refers to Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan and selected others (Unsullied and Freed men, all chosen for the mission because they have no families) as Sewer Rats, for their mission to infiltrate the sewers of Meereen. I thought it was strange that she would come up with a nickname for this group and then Ser Jorah referred to himself by that term when he returned from the successful mission.

In my head, I started speculating about a hidden meaning in an anagram and came up with the almost-anagram Weir Star, initially (interesting, but what could it mean?) and then Wer Strasse. The second possibility is intriguing: the Gendel and Gorne story involves tunnels. And I have also written that tree roots seem to be symbolic serpents, tunneling into the ground. Could roots of a Weirwood tree be traveling along a Strasse? 

So your "wer" etymology is very useful. 

The Jorah and Barristan chapters are closely juxtaposed with Tyrion's trial-by-combat, with the Red Viper fighting Ser Gregor. So the snake symbolism may be in play.

On 2/2/2023 at 9:54 AM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

there are only 8 mentions of indigo in ACOK.

Yes but the Mallister sigil is also indigo. I think they may represent one version of the Lords of the Underworld. 

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11 hours ago, Seams said:

Just before the chat with Ser Barristan, Dany refers to Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan and selected others (Unsullied and Freed men, all chosen for the mission because they have no families) as Sewer Rats, for their mission to infiltrate the sewers of Meereen. I thought it was strange that she would come up with a nickname for this group and then Ser Jorah referred to himself by that term when he returned from the successful mission.

After going over the chapter again, many parallels to Tyrion stood out to me. For one, Tyrion is associated with cleaning up the sewer system at Casterly Rock. Even if he never entered the sewers himself, he commanded a work-force of "sewer rats" to get the job done. Like Dany's force, Tyrion technically has no family he can return to. In this respect his situation is similar to Barristan's and Jorah's, also the Unsullied - and actually like Dany herself.

Tyrion is also a "sewer rat" in another sense. He sews his own clothes, basically a set of motley, while travelling the Rhoyne. Motley is patchwork, made of different coloured cloths, like Meereen, the city built of many coloured bricks. Meereen is actually a patchwork city in this respect. She also thinks of her "sewer rats" as fools:

Quote

Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan, Strong Belwas, and twenty brave fools slipped beneath the brown water and up the brick tunnel, a mixed force of sellswords, Unsullied, and freedmen.

While the brave and foolish sewer rats infiltrate, Joso's Cock is busy ramming the gates of Meereen and we get another "fool" reference:

Quote

Joso’s Cock, they called it. The fighting had raged bitter and bloody for most of a day and well into the night before the wood began to splinter and Meraxes’ iron figurehead, a laughing jester’s face, came crashing through.

Joso's Cock ramming the gates of Meereen is a rape analogy. Tyrion rapes Tysha on his father's orders (there's also the sex worker he treated so badly, more or less raped, to consider here). Shagwell is another rapist fool. 

When Dany sent Jorah and Barristan into the sewers, she hoped they would die (she had discovered the treachery prior to this). Instead they emerged and their effort led to the slaves breaking their chains:

Quote

The slaves are rising, she knew at once. My sewer rats have gnawed off their chains.

So what does all this mean? I can only offer an educated guess. Perhaps "sewer rats" are another key to releasing the undead from the invisible magical "chains" holding them thrall to the white walkers. To bring in the possible "weir strasse," i.e, weir street anagram, travelling down the weirnet by way of  the roots may be the route that needs to be taken. Consciousness travelling througth the "street" to intercept the magic of the Others perhaps. But maybe the weir-route in question is foul and blocked (thinking of the poisoned Raventree weirwood) and needs to be "cleaned," as Tyrion restores the flow at Casterly Rock.

Patchface is probably part of this symbolism. He's a broken horned-god or broken greenseer type. In one of his announcements, he offers to lead the Hardhome mission, saying they will go into the sea and return from it (like he did, drowning and returning from death). He could symbolise a broken greenseer blocking some portion of the weir net or street. 

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12 hours ago, Seams said:

In my ASoS re-read, I just got through Ser Barristan discussing the madness of King Aerys with Dany. I bet dam / mad is a wordplay pair, and that would bring us back to this meaning of weir. 

The swimmers sent to remove the grates from the sewers are "half mad."

Quote

As the flaming ships drew the eyes of the defenders on the walls, a few half-mad swimmers found the sewer mouths and pried loose a rusted iron grating. Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan, Strong Belwas, and twenty brave fools slipped beneath the brown water and up the brick tunnel, a mixed force of sellswords, Unsullied, and freedmen. Dany had told them to choose only men who had no families … and preferably no sense of smell. 

The iron grating can be compared to a weir or dam. More to a classic weir because its function is to regulate water flow. So the "mad" swimmers are those who dismantle the dam. 

Maybe I'm wrong about Patchface being a block in the system - he's also considered to be mad. Whatever the case, I can see him playing a role, perhaps a twist.

And I just noticed Dany hopes her sewer rats have no sense of smell. This again is another Tyrion parallel - he has no nose, alluding to having no sense of smell. 

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