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Not sure if this qualifies ( a bit tinfoily):

In a thread on the origins of "Barratheon" LynnS and I were bandying about the possibility the word "Bar" in Bar Emmon and Barratheon could be a tag (valyrian, likely) indicating bastardy which brought up this passage: 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Might be we'll make Meereen after all, Tyrion thought.
But when he clambered up the ladder to the sterncastle and looked off from the stern, his smile faltered. Blue sky and blue sea here, but off west … I have never seen a sky that color. A thick band of clouds ran along the horizon. "A bar sinister," he said to Penny, pointing.
 
"It means some big bastard is creeping up behind us."
 
and the fact that one of Robert's bastards was named "Barra" by her mother to please the king.
Edited by hiemal

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4 hours ago, hiemal said:

Not sure if this qualifies ( a bit tinfoily):

In a thread on the origins of "Barratheon" LynnS and I were bandying about the possibility the word "Bar" in Bar Emmon and Barratheon could be a tag (valyrian, likely) indicating bastardy which brought up this passage: 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Might be we'll make Meereen after all, Tyrion thought.
But when he clambered up the ladder to the sterncastle and looked off from the stern, his smile faltered. Blue sky and blue sea here, but off west … I have never seen a sky that color. A thick band of clouds ran along the horizon. "A bar sinister," he said to Penny, pointing.
 
"It means some big bastard is creeping up behind us."
 
and the fact that one of Robert's bastards was named "Barra" by her mother to please the king.

There's a Stormlander family with the Baratheon sigil inversed (and quartered?) with a bar sinister slashed across it. I forget the house name though.  Maybe it's related somehow related? 

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9 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

There's a Stormlander family with the Baratheon sigil inversed (and quartered?) with a bar sinister slashed across it. I forget the house name though.  Maybe it's related somehow related? 

That's House Bolling - their sigil is 'Vairy orange and blue, upon a black canton, a golden stag beneath an orange bend sinister' (Vairy tenné and azure, on a canton sable a stag or debruised by a bend sinister of the first).

But they might be a branch of House Durrandon, not of Baratheons...

There's another house with Durrandon/Baratheon stags - House Wensington (Two golden trumpets crossed on a blue field, beneath a gold chief with three black stags).

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Quay/key? I seem to remember there being a good one there, but it's slipped its slip and headed out to sea.

Edited by hiemal

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On 17/01/2017 at 2:44 AM, Seams said:

howl / Wohl / well / whole / hole

Some good discussion in the Salt and the Black Gate thread, started by @pigpiginsunspear led me to revisit the tear / tear pun, and to point out a possible connection with the drop of salt water that falls on Bran as he passes through the Black Gate under the Night Fort.

In the same thread, @Lady Fishbiscuit and @The Fattest Leech suggested that the drop of salt water, the gate and the well leading to the gate present birth (or rebirth) and baptism imagery at this important milestone in Bran's story.

I hadn't thought much about the well before this thread led me to the topic. Over the last couple of days, I've been thinking more about wells - Tywin throwing the Tarbek heir in a well; Cersei's friend Melara Heatherspoon falling in a well; and the wells I mentioned in the linked tear / tear post (above).

Today, I came across this line in ACoK, Catelyn II: "... Catelyn dreamt that Bran was whole again." The wordplay wheels are always turning, and I wondered whether there might be a connection among the howl of a wolf, the German word "Wohl" (well, welfare, weal, well-being), whole and well. Certainly we see the comatose Bran become stronger when Robb opens the window so the howl of the direwolf can be heard in his bedchamber. The German word is relevant only as the bridge that connects the letters of "howl" to "well."

But how does the "well" that describes health connect to the "well" where water is drawn up in a bucket, if at all? In the books, some people drown in wells. Nasty people emerge from a hiding place in a well when Brienne reaches Crackclaw Point.

In that same tear / tear post, I started to speculate about a connection in GRRM's symbolism, where torn fabric is symbolized by a "tear" (a drop of salt water), and that the kind of hole created by these "tears" (ripped fabric) is often found in a tower or a well. So "whole" (associated with wellness) leads to "hole" (as in, "a hole in the ground"). This would work only if you recognize the constant death and rebirth imagery GRRM applies to dozens of characters throughout the books.

Maybe this even explains why Sandor Clegane is digging graves as a form of rehab: holes in the ground will make him whole. (Maybe even holy?)

The floor is open, if anyone has other ideas about this string of puns, or how we are supposed to know whether a well is a place to be healthy or a place to die - or both.

Also Old English wella, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch wel and German Welle ‘a wave’.  Made me think of LmL's waves of night ^_^.  Well can also refer to an underground spring or a fountain.  

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Noted this in a PJ video comment but (heh) it may be something.  A Darry heir and derriere wordplay?  Something about being the butt of a joke?  Merrett Frey (the father of the Darry heir girls) seems to feel like he's part of the bad end/"butt" of a joke.  I mean, he even has "joke" branded on his rear by Wenda the White Fawn. 

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This thread has inspired me to look for anagrams everywhere.  I've been playing around with "Mad Danelle Lothston" today, which almost forms "lost and damned to hell," but alas the phrase has an extra D in it.  "...and damned to hell" comes from the D&E series: Oak and Iron guard me well, lest I be doomed and dammed to hell.  I was pretty excited when I realized that "damned to hell" could be formed out Mad Danelle Lothston, a nod to the prayer above and a possible allusion to the curse of Harrenhal, but alas, truly nothing. 

It got me thinking though.  If the Stark children (from Ned and Cat) are of Lothston-Stark descent, and Lothston is a form of lodestone in surname form, does this make the Lothston-Starks kind of "lodestars?"   Lothston>lodestone; Loth-Stark>lodestar  (The lodestar is an old term for the northern star, the star which directs navigators north.)

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1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

This thread has inspired me to look for anagrams everywhere.  I've been playing around with "Mad Danelle Lothston" today, which almost forms "lost and damned to hell," but alas the phrase has an extra D in it.  "...and damned to hell" comes from the D&E series: Oak and Iron guard me well, lest I be doomed and dammed to hell.  I was pretty excited when I realized that "damned to hell" could be formed out Mad Danelle Lothston, a nod to the prayer above and a possible allusion to the curse of Harrenhal, but alas, truly nothing. 

It got me thinking though.  If the Stark children (from Ned and Cat) are of Lothston-Stark descent, and Lothston is a form of lodestone in surname form, does this make the Lothston-Starks kind of "lodestars?"   Lothston>lodestone; Loth-Stark>lodestar  (The lodestar is an old term for the northern star, the star which directs navigators north.)

Isobel, I'll reeling you back in from the brink; please accept my extended hand. You're awfully close to the edge there - the edge of madness. Don't slip Isobel! ISOBEELLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!  NNNOOOOOO!!!!!

;)

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11 hours ago, LmL said:

Isobel, I'll reeling you back in from the brink; please accept my extended hand. You're awfully close to the edge there - the edge of madness. Don't slip Isobel! ISOBEELLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!  NNNOOOOOO!!!!!

;)

Lol!  Does it sound that crackpot?

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On 1/19/2017 at 2:13 AM, Isobel Harper said:

Noted this in a PJ video comment but (heh) it may be something.  A Darry heir and derriere wordplay?  Something about being the butt of a joke?  Merrett Frey (the father of the Darry heir girls) seems to feel like he's part of the bad end/"butt" of a joke.  I mean, he even has "joke" branded on his rear by Wenda the White Fawn. 

Could be! I always assumed the name Darry was part of the milk motif - women with skin like milk, milk brothers, nipples on a breast plate, etc. This would be a better fit, possibly, for the role of Willem Darry, who nurtured Dany and Viserys in their early years of exile. But there could certainly be additional layers of meaning.

On 1/24/2017 at 1:24 AM, Isobel Harper said:

This thread has inspired me to look for anagrams everywhere.  I've been playing around with "Mad Danelle Lothston" today, which almost forms "lost and damned to hell," but alas the phrase has an extra D in it.  "...and damned to hell" comes from the D&E series: Oak and Iron guard me well, lest I be doomed and dammed to hell.  I was pretty excited when I realized that "damned to hell" could be formed out Mad Danelle Lothston, a nod to the prayer above and a possible allusion to the curse of Harrenhal, but alas, truly nothing. 

It got me thinking though.  If the Stark children (from Ned and Cat) are of Lothston-Stark descent, and Lothston is a form of lodestone in surname form, does this make the Lothston-Starks kind of "lodestars?"   Lothston>lodestone; Loth-Stark>lodestar  (The lodestar is an old term for the northern star, the star which directs navigators north.)

It can turn into such a time suck, can't it, once you get into it? I am constantly looking for possible scrambled names or words of Houses. Mad Danelle Lothston almost certainly has a key role in foreshadowing something, and that's the kind of character and name that catches my eye, too. Your lodestone / lodestar associations sound very promising, especially with the added Stark association of the "north" star.

Off the top of my head, my first free association with the Lothston surname would be the many letters it shares with Lion's Tooth. If I were on one of my wordplay rampages, I would start looking for someone else in the history of the family whose name has the extra letters that are "missing" . . .

But, as I've noted before, anagrams are deceptive and you can almost always "find" a meaning that you want to see. I suspect GRRM has used some, but I don't know where or how many. It's a fun pastime for word-lovers, though, and maybe we will be pleasantly surprised by finding some key names or phrases with a hidden meaning.

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pincer / Prince

This one just occurred to me, and it might help to make sense of some of the shellfish references, especially the bits about crab claws or the "lobstered gauntlet" in the box at the Citadel.

GRRM doesn't use the word "pincer," but he refers often to claws - Jeor Mormont crushes a crab claw in his fist, Tyrion enjoys succulent crab meat (but Alliser Thorne refuses to eat any), the VS sword is called Long Claw, etc. I thought there might be wordplay around claw and walk, and that may still be true - "long walk" would describe the story arc of several of the leading characters (Bran, ironically; Dany across the Dothraki Sea; Jon beyond the Wall).

But a hidden pun on prince and pincer would offer some direction for literary sleuths in sorting out secret identities or hidden royalty. I wonder whether Nimble Dick Crabb is supposed to have some royal blood, making him a pincer prince of sorts? If so, it would bring Brienne's arc even  closer to the story of Ser Duncan the Tall, as he and Brienne could both claim to have traveled in the company of a prince (although Pod is a closer match in other ways for young Aegon / Egg).

I have to admit, I'm stumbling upon this and haven't put much thought into it yet. I am preparing another chapter for the Direwolf re-read, and came across this sentence as Jon is arriving at Craster's Keep: "Another dismal night was in prospect." (ACoK, Jon III) I am constantly scanning GRRM's prose for hidden meaning, so slightly odd constructions leap out at me and get additional scrutiny. In this case, I thought the words "in prospect" were just a little bit awkward, so I ran them through the anagram website and came up with a variety of possibilities using prince and pincer. In the context of the books, those words are clearly meaningful, so I'm trying to figure out what GRRM might want us to know about Craster, based on this wordplay.

There was a good analysis of Sister Stew at one point, with the theory that the three types of crabs in the stew represented wights, White Walkers and The Others. If this was accurate (the author later decided he didn't like the thesis and I haven't been able to find the thread), then the "in prospect" phrase could be a hint that Craster's sons (princes) will be given over to "crabs" (with pincers).

Other possibly significant words or images in this chapter: torrent (an allusion to Torrhen Stark?) and "Craster sat above the fire, the only man to enjoy his own chair." (That seems like an indication of a throne.)

Separate but related: At the blacksmith's shop at Acorn Hall, I believe Gendry playfully grabs at Arya's nose using some tongs. Those might also be part of the pincer symbolism, and might foreshadow a princely destiny for Gendry.

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On 1/26/2017 at 10:22 AM, Seams said:

Could be! I always assumed the name Darry was part of the milk motif - women with skin like milk, milk brothers, nipples on a breast plate, etc. This would be a better fit, possibly, for the role of Willem Darry, who nurtured Dany and Viserys in their early years of exile. But there could certainly be additional layers of meaning.

It can turn into such a time suck, can't it, once you get into it? I am constantly looking for possible scrambled names or words of Houses. Mad Danelle Lothston almost certainly has a key role in foreshadowing something, and that's the kind of character and name that catches my eye, too. Your lodestone / lodestar associations sound very promising, especially with the added Stark association of the "north" star.

Off the top of my head, my first free association with the Lothston surname would be the many letters it shares with Lion's Tooth. If I were on one of my wordplay rampages, I would start looking for someone else in the history of the family whose name has the extra letters that are "missing" . . .

But, as I've noted before, anagrams are deceptive and you can almost always "find" a meaning that you want to see. I suspect GRRM has used some, but I don't know where or how many. It's a fun pastime for word-lovers, though, and maybe we will be pleasantly surprised by finding some key names or phrases with a hidden meaning.

Lothston, L__ns Tooth.  Lothston = Lion missing teeth? 

I have a theory (which I'm sure you're familiar with) concerning a familial connection among Qoherys, Lothston, Whent, and Stark.  

I have a hunch that Lannister might be somehow related to these families as well.  In the whole series, only THREE people are described as having copper hair: Melisandre, Sansa, and Addam Marbrand.  Tywin's mother was a Marbrand, so if Marbrand has the blood of House Lothston via the female line, they might also have a claim to Harrenhal...  unless this Qoherys/Lothston blood entered House Marbrand AFTER the Tytos/Jeyne Marbrand marriage - then the Lannisters would have no "teeth" with which they could fight over Harrenhal.

ETA: House Lannister married into House Marbrand a generation later.  Tygett married Darlessa Marbrand and had one son, Tyrek, together.  Tyrek went missing during the riot of KL, which is theorized by some to have been orchestrated by LF.  Perhaps Tyrek went missing/was killed because he had a rival claim to Harrenhal?!

Edited by Isobel Harper

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11 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Lothston, L__ns Tooth.  Lothston = Lion missing teeth? 

I have a theory (which I'm sure you're familiar with) concerning a familial connection among Qoherys, Lothston, Whent, and Stark.  

I have a hunch that Lannister might be somehow related to these families as well.  In the whole series, only THREE people are described as having copper hair: Melisandre, Sansa, and Addam Marbrand.  Tywin's mother was a Marbrand, so if Marbrand has the blood of House Lothston via the female line, they might also have a claim to Harrenhal...  unless this Qoherys/Lothston blood entered House Marbrand AFTER the Tytos/Jeyne Marbrand marriage - then the Lannisters would have no "teeth" with which they could fight over Harrenhal.

ETA: House Lannister married into House Marbrand a generation later.  Tygett married Darlessa Marbrand and had one son, Tyrek, together.  Tyrek went missing during the riot of KL, which is theorized by some to have been orchestrated by LF.  Perhaps Tyrek went missing/was killed because he had a rival claim to Harrenhal?!

I love these tangled family tree mysteries! And this one happens to touch on a little wordplay game I've been playing by myself off in a corner:

Denys Mallister

Melisandre

Lady Ermesande

House Manderly

All contain the letters for "emerald." Perhaps just a coincidence, but might be some kind of hidden clue.

After I noticed yesterday that the surname Westerling contains the word sterling, your copper discover is of interest to me. I wonder whether there is a hidden motif of various kinds of metals, just waiting for the right "smith" to come along to work with them?

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This one is not fully developed but I feel like there is something there:

Cersei/Circe and Tyrion being transformed visually into something piggish by losing most of his nose. Having him ride a pig later before a different queen portends a redemption/transformation.

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12 hours ago, hiemal said:

This one is not fully developed but I feel like there is something there:

Cersei/Circe and Tyrion being transformed visually into something piggish by losing most of his nose. Having him ride a pig later before a different queen portends a redemption/transformation.

Without a doubt! I wish you would fully develop this, if the spirit moves you, because there is so much pig-related stuff I haven't sort out. And a lot of it seems to come back to Tyrion.

Somewhere I jotted down some thoughts about the "Tyrion as Odysseus" symbolism but I can't find it now. The Cersei/Circe comparison is almost certainly deliberate, but we also have Penny as Penelope. And the two female characters seem to overlap and change places (as in variations on the ancient legend), with Tyrion becoming Penny's "brother" when he takes over Groat's role in the jousting act - does that make Penny into a semi-Cersei character, as Tyrion's "sister"? If so, that adds a new layer of meaning to her attempts to seduce her brother.

Pigs were also the "witnesses" at Tyrion's wedding to Tysha.

Brienne has a couple of pig moments that might be significant - she sees baby pigs around a well (in the company of a crone figure) before she begins her quest with Dick Crabb. Then she encounters (and kills) a character from the Bloody Mummers named Pyg (along with Tymeon and Shagwell).

I've wondered about a possible wordplay angle with pig iron - the crude, impure iron that is further refined to make steel. I wonder whether the message is that Tyrion is a pig figure until he is refined by the hardships he encounters in his travels through Essos. Maybe Brienne is also being transformed from pig iron into steel.

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On 2/7/2017 at 11:16 AM, Seams said:

Without a doubt! I wish you would fully develop this, if the spirit moves you, because there is so much pig-related stuff I haven't sort out. And a lot of it seems to come back to Tyrion.

Somewhere I jotted down some thoughts about the "Tyrion as Odysseus" symbolism but I can't find it now. The Cersei/Circe comparison is almost certainly deliberate, but we also have Penny as Penelope. And the two female characters seem to overlap and change places (as in variations on the ancient legend), with Tyrion becoming Penny's "brother" when he takes over Groat's role in the jousting act - does that make Penny into a semi-Cersei character, as Tyrion's "sister"? If so, that adds a new layer of meaning to her attempts to seduce her brother.

Pigs were also the "witnesses" at Tyrion's wedding to Tysha.

Brienne has a couple of pig moments that might be significant - she sees baby pigs around a well (in the company of a crone figure) before she begins her quest with Dick Crabb. Then she encounters (and kills) a character from the Bloody Mummers named Pyg (along with Tymeon and Shagwell).

I've wondered about a possible wordplay angle with pig iron - the crude, impure iron that is further refined to make steel. I wonder whether the message is that Tyrion is a pig figure until he is refined by the hardships he encounters in his travels through Essos. Maybe Brienne is also being transformed from pig iron into steel.

I've actually had similar thoughts on pig iron and smelting and refining. I've been thinking a lot about pigs as servants of the Earth Mother archetype (who gore certain heroes to death and scar others for later identification- Odysseus, for example) and it is going to be one of the foci of my next reread project. Pate the Pig Boy, the boar skinchanger, Craster's pigs- it's a lot of pork.

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15 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I've actually had similar thoughts on pig iron and smelting and refining. I've been thinking a lot about pigs as servants of the Earth Mother archetype (who gore certain heroes to death and scar others for later identification- Odysseus, for example) and it is going to be one of the foci of my next reread project. Pate the Pig Boy, the boar skinchanger, Craster's pigs- it's a lot of pork.

If you put up a re-read thread, I will follow it enthusiastically. Pigs come up over and over - I've just read the current thread on "Jon's Buddy Borroq," the boar skin-changer. And don't forget references to bacon! What is the meaning of the name, "Pretty Pig"? There has to be a trail to follow here.

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50 minutes ago, Seams said:

If you put up a re-read thread, I will follow it enthusiastically. Pigs come up over and over - I've just read the current thread on "Jon's Buddy Borroq," the boar skin-changer. And don't forget references to bacon! What is the meaning of the name, "Pretty Pig"? There has to be a trail to follow here.

Immediately I am struck by the symmetry of Tyrion uttering the same word, "pretty" when he sees his reflection for the first time after the battle of Blackwater and that he rides this pig, as a pig, before Dany and the Meereenese to be unwittingly eaten by his own House sigil personified and hungry. Afterward he abandons the pig, the identity, and the fetters. He is transformed, although not back to what he was.

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On 07/02/2017 at 5:16 PM, Seams said:

Without a doubt! I wish you would fully develop this, if the spirit moves you, because there is so much pig-related stuff I haven't sort out. And a lot of it seems to come back to Tyrion.

Somewhere I jotted down some thoughts about the "Tyrion as Odysseus" symbolism but I can't find it now. The Cersei/Circe comparison is almost certainly deliberate, but we also have Penny as Penelope. And the two female characters seem to overlap and change places (as in variations on the ancient legend), with Tyrion becoming Penny's "brother" when he takes over Groat's role in the jousting act - does that make Penny into a semi-Cersei character, as Tyrion's "sister"? If so, that adds a new layer of meaning to her attempts to seduce her brother.

Pigs were also the "witnesses" at Tyrion's wedding to Tysha.

Brienne has a couple of pig moments that might be significant - she sees baby pigs around a well (in the company of a crone figure) before she begins her quest with Dick Crabb. Then she encounters (and kills) a character from the Bloody Mummers named Pyg (along with Tymeon and Shagwell).

I've wondered about a possible wordplay angle with pig iron - the crude, impure iron that is further refined to make steel. I wonder whether the message is that Tyrion is a pig figure until he is refined by the hardships he encounters in his travels through Essos. Maybe Brienne is also being transformed from pig iron into steel.

This "pig stuff" reminds me that I had also noted some things about the pigs (and the roar) as kind of fallen/"dethroned" bears, especially in the saga : Robert appears like a bear and like a pig, but same metaphor is about Samwell Tarly, and also for Tyrion. And when the bear is a pig, he is hunted and killed by lions or wolves or others predators (and eaten by crows ?). But I didn't have yet studied these points.  

 

I come with a possible wordplay (perhaps it was already noted and I missed it) : 

- laughter/laugh and slaughter. 

It apppears very clear in a Tyrion's chapter, during the Blackwater battle : 

Quote

The battle fever. He had never thought to experience it himself, though Jaime had told him of it often enough. How time seemed to blur and slow and even stop, how the past and the future vanished until there was nothing but the instant, how fear fled, and thought fled, and even your body. "You don't feel your wounds then, or the ache in your back from the weight of the armor, or the sweat running down into your eyes. You stop feeling, you stop thinking, you stop being you, there is only the fight, the foe, this man and then the next and the next and the next, and you know they are afraid and tired but you're not, you're alive, and death is all around you but their swords move so slowly, you can dance through them laughing." Battle fever. I am half a man and drunk with slaughter, let them kill me if they can!

They tried. Another spearman ran at him. Tyrion lopped off the head of his spear, then his hand, then his arm, trotting around him in a circle. An archer, bowless, thrust at him with an arrow, holding it as if it were a knife. The destrier kicked at the man's thigh to send him sprawling, and Tyrion barked laughter. (Tyrion XIV, ACOK)

I never noted it before (I wasn't reading the whole saga in english, as I do yet), but this calls me, especially joined to the "battle-fever" who speaks from a kind of possession (and perhaps, it could be the occasion for a greenseer to "dream" a battle inside a fighting person - perhaps it is a clue that it's really what happens). 

It made me remembering the Laughing tree, but also the mocking bird of LF, and Cersei's dream when she is bit and eated by the iron throne and she sees at the same time Tyrion hard laughing at her (her first chapter in AFFC, if I remember well). And to finish, the Others in the prologue. 

Note also that at the end of his chapter (the one of the "battle fever"), Tyrion is croaking like a crow (not so far from "cracking" like ice, perhaps). 

I don't know if someone has already studied the "laugh" in the saga, but it seams there are some interesting things in this theme

 

I forgot also Brienne at the Whispers, when she is litteraly slaughtering Shagwell : 

Quote

She knocked aside his arm and punched the steel into his bowels. "Laugh," she snarled at him. He moaned instead. "Laugh," she repeated, grabbing his throat with one hand and stabbing at his belly with the other. "Laugh!" She kept saying it, over and over, until her hand was red up to the wrist and the stink of the fool's dying was like to choke her. But Shagwell never laughed. The sobs that Brienne heard were all her own. When she realized that, she threw down her knife and shuddered.

 

Edited by GloubieBoulga

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