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30 minutes ago, Seams said:

Treason / Tree son

AHAHAHAAHAHAAAAA :rofl:

Sorry, this is too funny that it may accidentally be true ... but I'm just thinking of Bloodraventree and Craster

A Game of Thrones - Sansa V (to unlock the secret message, you swap Sansa/Joffery for Bran/3EC)
"Thank you, Your Grace." Sansa smiled, a shy secret smile, just for him. He was listening. She knew he would.
"Treason is a noxious weed," Pycelle declared solemnly. "It must be torn up, root and stem and seed, lest new traitors sprout from every roadside."
"Do you deny your father's crime?" Lord Baelish asked.

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@sweetsunray what a fucking awesome catch with hair and heir!!! It does explain why George's eununchs are bald (though I suspect Varys' head could be shaved).

You got me thinking about Aegon V. His hair is shaved again and again in his youth, but it does insist on growing back in. His hairline is not receeding, but his hair betrays his purpuse to keep his Targaryen identity hidden. I think this could parallel with him ending up with heirs that refuse to do as he bids them, perhaps?

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@Seams

On 8/31/2019 at 11:18 PM, Seams said:

Treason / Tree son

I don't know why this never occurred to me before. Ned is found guilt of treason. Ned has a tree son.

Maybe.

Hi Seams! I'm originally an ASOIAF Redditor and have since moved my discussion of ASOIAF to Twitter. I have never been very active on this forum but have since become friends with some of those who have. I'm also really into wordplay within the series and have heard of you as a result (most often via my good friend @ravenous reader).

 

I've also noticed the treason/tree-son wordplay GRRM seems to be using. The first time I noticed it was when I came across the passage that @The Map Guy quotes. But there are many more where it makes sense. 

Quote

"At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions."

The ending took the puppet show from simple insolence to treason. "Witless fools. Only cretins would hazard their heads upon a wooden dragon."

Hatching a wooden dragon = tree son.

Quote

The eunuch’s smile never flickered, but his eyes glittered with something that was not laughter. “You are kind to ask, my lord, but my tale is long and sad, and we have treasons to discuss.” He drew a parchment from the sleeve of his robe. “The master of the King’s Galley White Hart plots to slip anchor three days hence to offer his sword and ship to Lord Stannis.”

White h[e]art = weirwood.

Quote

As they left, she turned to Sansa. “Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you’ll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain

Quote

"Treason…is only a word."

Or two...

 

Those are just a few. Much of it is merely to reinforce greenseer symbolism.

Also, you may be interested in an essay I wrote regarding GRRM's use of 'True' and 'Tree':

Wed to the Tree

Cheers!

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10 hours ago, Rusted Revolver said:

@Seams

Hi Seams! I'm originally an ASOIAF Redditor and have since moved my discussion of ASOIAF to Twitter. I have never been very active on this forum but have since become friends with some of those who have. I'm also really into wordplay within the series and have heard of you as a result (most often via my good friend @ravenous reader).

 

I've also noticed the treason/tree-son wordplay GRRM seems to be using. The first time I noticed it was when I came across the passage that @The Map Guy quotes. But there are many more where it makes sense. 

Hatching a wooden dragon = tree son.

White h[e]art = weirwood.

Or two...

 

Those are just a few. Much of it is merely to reinforce greenseer symbolism.

Also, you may be interested in an essay I wrote regarding GRRM's use of 'True' and 'Tree':

Wed to the Tree

Cheers!

The irony of course is that the treason is committed against the people knowingly putting or keeping a fraud on the throne, that they all seek someone who stands for "truth" instead.

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Quote

"At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions."

The ending took the puppet show from simple insolence to treason. "Witless fools. Only cretins would hazard their heads upon a wooden dragon."

 

13 hours ago, Rusted Revolver said:

Hatching a wooden dragon = tree son.

This is terrific! It might help to explain the level of detail in the Hedge Knight incident between the puppeteer Tanselle and Prince Aerion "Brightflame": The prince attacks Tanselle because her puppet show ends with the beheading of a dragon and red saw dust pouring from the dragon's neck. I believe Tanselle is a symbolic Missy Blackwood / Bloodraven. If the red saw dust foreshadows the eventual replacement of dragon monarchs with red tree monarchs, Aerion's anger takes on a deeper meaning.

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On 8/31/2019 at 11:59 PM, The Map Guy said:

AHAHAHAAHAHAAAAA :rofl:

Sorry, this is too funny that it may accidentally be true ... but I'm just thinking of Bloodraventree and Craster

A Game of Thrones - Sansa V (to unlock the secret message, you swap Sansa/Joffery for Bran/3EC)
"Thank you, Your Grace." Sansa smiled, a shy secret smile, just for him. He was listening. She knew he would.
"Treason is a noxious weed," Pycelle declared solemnly. "It must be torn up, root and stem and seed, lest new traitors sprout from every roadside."
"Do you deny your father's crime?" Lord Baelish asked.

Ooh, that’s good. Think of John the Fiddler/ Daemon Targ-Blackfyre that pops up along the road in D&E who is only there to commit treason, as Bloodraven so smartly knows. 

This is the moral question posited and recited in the Mystery Knight, “ Is the boy his father's son?"

adding: Now that I think about it, this same story that questions treasons in un-rightful rulers (sons of)  is where we are also introduced to the Frey’s and snot nosed Lord Walder as a wee child, who then later in life commits crimes against his king, and in TMK Bloodraven tells the Frey’s he will deal with them later... bring on Nymeria and her wolf pack!!! 

Also, GRRM has used this “sons of” treason idea before. In his story For A Single Yesterday, he has a rogue bunch of army dudes that were sworn to protect now out and about terrorizing survivors of a nuclear (dragon) blast. This group is called Sons of the Blast (SoB), but the good guys call them SoB’s for other reasons. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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On 9/3/2019 at 8:38 AM, Seams said:

This is terrific! It might help to explain the level of detail in the Hedge Knight incident between the puppeteer Tanselle and Prince Aerion "Brightflame": The prince attacks Tanselle because her puppet show ends with the beheading of a dragon and red saw dust pouring from the dragon's neck. I believe Tanselle is a symbolic Missy Blackwood / Bloodraven. If the red saw dust foreshadows the eventual replacement of dragon monarchs with red tree monarchs, Aerion's anger takes on a deeper meaning

I agree. Especially about Tanselle = Symbolic Bloodraven. I've even considered Tanselle literally being BR in disguise - the Maynard Plumm of The Hedge Knight. Although, that is probably going too far.  :)

The puppet show is the trigger which eventually leads to the death of the Hand of the King and BR's appointment as the new Hand. So a symbolic BR sets in motion a chain of events that ends with BR as the new Hand. Quite the puppet master, indeed.

 

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5 hours ago, Rusted Revolver said:

I agree. Especially about Tanselle = Symbolic Bloodraven. I've even considered Tanselle literally being BR in disguise - the Maynard Plumm of The Hedge Knight. Although, that is probably going too far.  :)

The puppet show is the trigger which eventually leads to the death of the Hand of the King and BR's appointment as the new Hand. So a symbolic BR sets in motion a chain of events that ends with BR as the new Hand. Quite the puppet master, indeed.

We're on the same wavelength!

 

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Wow. Started reading that thread @Seams but can't finish it at the moment. What I've read so far is really great! Can't wait to finish it.

Have you ever paid much attention to the illustrations in the Kot7K? There are some really great ones that reinforce the symbolism.

Link to a tweet with illustration because I don't know how to upload images here.

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1 hour ago, Rusted Revolver said:

Wow. Started reading that thread @Seams but can't finish it at the moment. What I've read so far is really great! Can't wait to finish it.

Have you ever paid much attention to the illustrations in the Kot7K? There are some really great ones that reinforce the symbolism.

Link to a tweet with illustration because I don't know how to upload images here.

Yes! Love the illustrations. I think GRRM worked very closely with the artist because there are many important hints that are conveyed by the illustrations. The death of Prince Baelor is very significant, I think. It's also significant, I suspect, that some things are not shown - I suspect we will never see a picture of Maester Cerrick, for instance.

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On 9/3/2019 at 12:55 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

TMK Bloodraven tells the Frey’s he will deal with them later... bring on Nymeria and her wolf pack!!!

Or sounds like Bloodraven may make a stop at the Twins in ADOS ... should be interesting

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On 9/7/2019 at 11:25 PM, The Map Guy said:

Or sounds like Bloodraven may make a stop at the Twins in ADOS ... should be interesting

Yeah, that is somewhat what I was thinking as well, just using the old godsy direwolf symbols/sigil (which is a magical term) instead. 

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I once found in one of the books, a boy wondering why a dragonfly (the big insect) was so-called when it does not look much like a dragon. That text likely has caused nuisance to translaters, e.g. the French for "dragonfly" and "dragon" are "libellule" and "dragon".

 

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Frog / Forage / Forge

This post was inspired by a recent thread discussing Janos Slynt, but I think it's a better fit for this thread, since it focuses on wordplay as the basis for a pattern that repeats in the books.

Janos Slynt is compared to a frog:

Stout, jowly Janos Slynt puffed himself up like an angry frog, his bald pate reddening (AGoT, Chap. 27, Eddard VI).

'Rich,' said the big frog-faced man, taking a healthy gulp. He was not a man for sipping, Janos Slynt (ACoK, Chap. 8, Tyrion II).

When he joins the Windblown mercenary company, Quentyn Martell is nicknamed "Frog" by his undercover companions.

In Dorne, Quentyn Martell had been a prince, In Volantis a merchant's man, but on the shores of slaver's Bay he was only Frog, squire to the big bald Dornish knight the sellswords called Greenguts. The men of the Windblown used what names they would, and changed them at a whim. They'd fastened Frog on him because he hopped so fast when the big man shouted a command.  (ADwD, Chap. 25, The Windblown).

There is a minor character mentioned in The Sworn Sword who may be a variation on this "frog" motif:

. . . Dake foraged for us. He was as fine a forager as I ever knew. We never marched on empty bellies.

...

'Your ladyship rode onto Standfast land, and did harm to one of Ser Eustace's' Dunk said, before he stopped to think about it.

'Did I?' She tugged her braid again. 'If you mean the sheep-stealer, the man was notorious. I had twice complained to Osgrey, yet he did nothing. I do not ask thrice. The king's law grants me the power of pit and gallows.'

I realize that a "forager" is not the same thing as a "frog," but the wordplay connection exists alongside some other details that might be enough to provide some insight into an interesting pattern.

  • Each of the men in this frog / forage group is lowborn - Quentyn Martell is a prince in real life, but the frog identity is deliberately chosen to disguise him as a lowly squire.
  • The three men (Slynt, Quentyn and Dake) are sacrificed or killed after doing loyal work for their liege lords: Dake is drowned for stealing a sheep, Quentyn is burned while stealing a dragon, Slynt is beheaded while trying to turn the Night's Watch against Jon Snow and toward the Lannisters.
  • The motif of the water shortage and stolen water in The Sworn Sword may connect Dake to the Drinkwater motif associated with Quentyn Martell (and Quentyn Ball, but that's a story for another day). Dake actually gets too much water when he is sewn into a weighted sack and drowned in Rohanne Webber's moat.
  • Dake and Quentyn both die as a result of stealing an animal. Dake is executed for stealing a sheep which is an animal closely associated with taming a dragon. Quentyn has his companions bring along a sheep for his attempt to steal one of Dany's dragons. I don't see animal theft as a literal part of Slynt's story although you could make a case that he tries to steal the raven associated with the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, failing in his attempt when Jon is declared the winner of the L.C. voting.

Probably off topic but also interesting:

There is a cloak in The Sworn Sword that starts out white but turns yellow with age. Eustace Osgrey forgets the name of Dake several times and refers to him as Lem. In ASOIAF, Lem Lemoncloak wears a yellow cloak (but readers suspect he is actually Richard Lonmouth, a squire who served Prince Rhaegar). At one point someone jokes with Lem that his cloak used to be white until he pissed on it.

I've speculated in this Puns and Wordplay thread about possible wordplay around "forge" and "forget."  Later, I tried to work out a possible link between "frogeaters" and "forgetters."

Now I'm thinking the "forge" connection is what is meaningful with these "frog" and "forage" characters. When these characters die, a forge is being destroyed. Every Lord needs a forge with a smith who can make and repair armor and weapons. Destroying someone's forge takes away a major piece of their power (for defense or offense).

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Rhaegal kills Quentyn aka Frog

Jon kills Janos, who is described like a frog

Jojen & Meera Reed are called frog-eaters, which requires killing frogs

Hmmmmm ... just some food for thought :idea:

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