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Puns and Wordplay

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3 hours ago, evita mgfs said:

hippocras / hypocrite

Bronn / brawn

Yes, I've been debating whether to take on the puns involving colors (white / wight, green / Gren, silver money and silver, the color) but my strongest sense is that Bronn links to brown, which is the name of the stew available in shops in Flea Bottom that includes all kinds of mystery meat, including the Symon Silver Tongue meat that Bronn provided at Tyrion's direction. A three-way pun could also be intended, with brawn in the mix. Or what about bronze?

There are a lot of other posts with such strong opinions about colors, though. I hesitate to open that can of worms.

32 minutes ago, yomi said:

Oh, that scene is in the book most gloriously!

Squirming through a press of knights, squires, and rich townfolk, Sansa reached the front of the gallery just as a blast of trumpets announced the entry of Lord Tywin Lannister.
He rode his warhorse down the length of the hall and dismounted before the Iron Throne. Sansa had never seen such armor; all burnished red steel, inlaid with golden scrollwork and ornamentation. His rondels were sunbursts, the roaring lion that crowned his helm had ruby eyes, and a lioness on each shoulder fastened a cloth-of-gold cloak so long and heavy that it draped the hindquarters of his charger. Even the horse's armor was gilded, and his bardings were shimmering crimson silk emblazoned with the lion of Lannister.
The Lord of Casterly Rock made such an impressive figure that it was a shock when his destrier dropped a load of dung right at the base of the throne. Joffrey had to step gingerly around it as he descended to embrace his grandfather and proclaim him Savior of the City. Sansa covered her mouth to hide a nervous smile.

Thanks! I couldn't remember where to look for this. Especially since this is Tywin himself, bringing a horse (and horse manure) where horses don't normally go, this seems like an important key to the "Wherever whores go" mystery. Another situation at the other end of Westeros offers an additional clue:

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."

Wherever Horse / whores go - the Iron Throne is o.k., but the weirwood is not? Of course, the direwolf Ghost soon arrives with the arm of a dead man in his mouth, so defiling may have happened in a different way.

Maybe the point is that the direwolf is o.k. at the sacred grove, because it is an ancient beast from the Children of the Forest era. In real life, the Celtic culture arose about the time that humans domesticated horses. I think the First Men culture is based on the Celts, in large measure. So maybe the horse / whores references are somehow allusions to the First Men. The culture of the First Men doesn't belong at the weirwood grove (or above the wall). I think there is another place where someone describes the way that the horses from the south don't function well in the North - they aren't cut out to handle the deep snow or cold. I don't know how this connects with whores, though. Thinking out loud here; trying out a new idea.

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2 minutes ago, Seams said:

Yes, I've been debating whether to take on the puns involving colors (white / wight, green / Gren, silver money and silver, the color) but my strongest sense is that Bronn links to brown, which is the name of the stew available in shops in Flea Bottom that includes all kinds of mystery meat, including the Symon Silver Tongue meat that Bronn provided at Tyrion's direction. A three-way pun could also be intended, with brawn in the mix. Or what about bronze?

 

 

 

I meant the character Bronn who is Tyrion's muscle or BRAWN at the Vale.  I did not mean BROWN or another color,  Sorry.

Color symbology is too fast with a myriad of cultural distinctions.  Those colors most pertinent to the series - such as red and white for the weirwoods/Ghost/blood/death are the clearest to articulate.  Moreover, Martin employs colors ironically and not in the traditional senses of color symbology in literature at large.  He likes to make things his OWN.

But if you want a headache, discuss colors, by all means!:wub:

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Seams

I have really enjoyed this thread and all the puns you have posted.  Definite clues.

Regarding the whores/horse word play.

Tywin Lannister is not the only character to ride a horse inside a building.

Bran ACOK

Dancer was draped in bardings of snowy white wool emblazoned with the grey direwolf of House Stark, while Bran wore grey breeches and white doublet, his sleeves and collar trimmed with vair. Over his heart was his wolf’s-head brooch of silver and polished jet. He would sooner have had Summer than a silver wolf on his breast, but Ser Rodrik had been unyielding.

The low stone steps balked Dancer only for a moment. When Bran urged her on, she took them easily. Beyond the wide oak-and-iron doors, eight long rows of trestle tables filled Winterfell’s Great Hall, four on each side of the center aisle. Men crowded shoulder to shoulder on the benches. “Stark!” they called as Bran trotted past, rising to their feet. “Winterfell! Winterfell!

He was old enough to know that it was not truly him t hey shouted for—it was the harvest they cheered, it was Robb and his victories, it was his lord father and his grandfather and all the Starks going back eight thousand years. Still, it made him swell with pride. For so long as it took him to ride the length of that hall he forgot that he was broken. Yet when he reached the dais, with every eye upon him, Osha and Hodor undid his straps and buckles, lifted him off Dancer’s back, and carried him to the high seat of his fathers.

So I am not sure that whores/horses has so much to do with desecrating holy place.

I wonder though if Martin is playing with us. 

" Where do whores go"  asks Tyrion after Tywin says " Where ever whores go!"    and we have a boy likened a few times to a " mule" in the story.  HOdor!  "Whore dooor?" 

Anyways I love your insights and the work you have put into this thead Seams. Well done.

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3 hours ago, evita mgfs said:

I meant the character Bronn who is Tyrion's muscle or BRAWN at the Vale.  I did not mean BROWN or another color,  Sorry.

Color symbology is too fast with a myriad of cultural distinctions.  Those colors most pertinent to the series - such as red and white for the weirwoods/Ghost/blood/death are the clearest to articulate.  Moreover, Martin employs colors ironically and not in the traditional senses of color symbology in literature at large.  He likes to make things his OWN.

But if you want a headache, discuss colors, by all means!:wub:

Sorry, yes, I saw you were pairing Bronn with brawn. My mind instantly leaped to the Bronn / brown pair I had been pondering, but I suspect there may be a Bronn / brown / brawn triple word score, at least. Bronn is such an interesting character. I think he holds some mysteries that will be fun to discover.

3 hours ago, Lady Arya's Song said:

Seams

I have really enjoyed this thread and all the puns you have posted.  Definite clues.

Regarding the whores/horse word play.

Tywin Lannister is not the only character to ride a horse inside a building.

Bran ACOK

Dancer was draped in bardings of snowy white wool emblazoned with the grey direwolf of House Stark, while Bran wore grey breeches and white doublet, his sleeves and collar trimmed with vair. Over his heart was his wolf’s-head brooch of silver and polished jet. He would sooner have had Summer than a silver wolf on his breast, but Ser Rodrik had been unyielding.

The low stone steps balked Dancer only for a moment. When Bran urged her on, she took them easily. Beyond the wide oak-and-iron doors, eight long rows of trestle tables filled Winterfell’s Great Hall, four on each side of the center aisle. Men crowded shoulder to shoulder on the benches. “Stark!” they called as Bran trotted past, rising to their feet. “Winterfell! Winterfell!

He was old enough to know that it was not truly him t hey shouted for—it was the harvest they cheered, it was Robb and his victories, it was his lord father and his grandfather and all the Starks going back eight thousand years. Still, it made him swell with pride. For so long as it took him to ride the length of that hall he forgot that he was broken. Yet when he reached the dais, with every eye upon him, Osha and Hodor undid his straps and buckles, lifted him off Dancer’s back, and carried him to the high seat of his fathers.

So I am not sure that whores/horses has so much to do with desecrating holy place.

I wonder though if Martin is playing with us. 

" Where do whores go"  asks Tyrion after Tywin says " Where ever whores go!"    and we have a boy likened a few times to a " mule" in the story.  HOdor!  "Whore dooor?" 

Anyways I love your insights and the work you have put into this thead Seams. Well done.

Thank you! I had completely forgotten this. I am overdue for a complete re-read.

This Bran example makes me think that the "Wherever horse / whores go" mystery might be about asserting power: Tywin appoints Tyrion as temporary Hand of the King, but he can't take his "whore" with him to King's Landing. When Tywin gets to King's Landing, he makes a grand entrance on his horse, going right up to the throne and dropping a pile of manure in front of the king. Meet the new Hand, same as the old Hand.

And I keep coming back to Tyrion designing the saddle that allows Bran to ride again. That has to be significant, if the horse / whores wordplay is correct.

If taking your horse / whores into certain places is about asserting power, it's interesting that it's Bowen Marsh that tells the Night's Watch recruits not to take their horses into the sacred grove. Foreshadowing? Perhaps he doesn't want them to be too powerful? In Jon IX toward the end of AGoT, when Jon is trying to desert the Night's Watch after Ned's execution, there is a lot of interaction between Jon and the horse he has taken. First he rides fast, then he chides himself for having been unsafe by riding so fast in the dark woods. He makes a conscious decision to walk the horse for awhile. He thinks about changing horses as he gets further down the King's Road. Hmm. What could that mean?

I almost forgot: Jon also consciously notes that he is passing the brothel in Mole's Town on that same ride. Whores go underground in Mole's Town. I think the chapter is intended to be compared with the one where Littlefinger takes Ned Stark to see Catelyn - on her secret mission to tell Ned about the attempt on Bran's life - in a brothel in King's Landing. Ned is unhappy to be taken to a brothel, until he understands that it is a hiding place where his wife is.

I guess I better seek out some of the threads discussing horses.

Edited by Seams

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I like your ideas Seams regarding power, whores, horse. :) Seams.  

A while back I noticed that Cersei and other characters refer to women as fillies.  Margery for example, I need to check and see if Cersei also refers to Marg..as a whore.  She is encouraging the Kettleblack to ride the filly.

So the idea of females and horses and power does make sense. 

I also like how you noticed Jon being considerate of his horse which I think he refers to it as " Lady". 

Sorry for typos, I am ill right now and my eyes are swollen and inflamed.  I really should not even try to post till I can see but I wanted to thank you for this thread. :)

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I posted this pun in your excellent Reread thread:

 

Martin opens Cat’s POV in AGoT with Robb sitting in the front of the vessel:

 

“Robb sat in the bow with Grey Wind, his hand resting on his direwolf’s head” [785].

 

Martin closes with the northmen “bowing” their knees to the King in the North:

 

“He [the Greatjon] pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to m’lords,” he thundered.  “The King in the North!”

 

“And he knelt, and laid his longsword at her [Catelyn’s] feet” [796].

Martin deviates from “bend” the knee to “bow” in this instance, thereby framing the POV and punning the word “bow”.  In each case, Robb is out front and elevated symbolically and literally.

Edited by evita mgfs
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7 hours ago, Lady Arya's Song said:

I like your ideas Seams regarding power, whores, horse. :) Seams.  

A while back I noticed that Cersei and other characters refer to women as fillies.  Margery for example, I need to check and see if Cersei also refers to Marg..as a whore.  She is encouraging the Kettleblack to ride the filly.

So the idea of females and horses and power does make sense. 

I also like how you noticed Jon being considerate of his horse which I think he refers to it as " Lady". 

Sorry for typos, I am ill right now and my eyes are swollen and inflamed.  I really should not even try to post till I can see but I wanted to thank you for this thread. :)

Good observations. There is so much horse-related stuff to reexamine, if the "whores" connection is correct. It will be interesting to see how the references differ between male and female characters. It would make sense that Cersei would see her rival for power as a "Horse" and, given her plan to frame Margaery for infidelity, as a "whore" at the same time. I think sometimes the pun is implied (LIke using the word filly, instead of horse), even if GRRM doesn't write out the exact sound-alike word.

Yes, I think Jon calls that horse Sweet Lady. I am starting to try to notice uses of the word "sweet," as it comes up a lot. I don't know if it links people to sweet foods (lemon cakes? fruit?) or to words like west or stew and steward. Or none of the above. It may be a straightforward term of endearment with no deeper meaning. ;)

1 hour ago, evita mgfs said:

I posted this pun in your excellent Reread thread:

...

Robb sat in the bow with Grey Wind, his hand resting on his direwolf’s head” [785].

Martin closes with the northmen “bowing” their knees to the King in the North:

"He [the Greatjon] pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to m’lords,” he thundered.  “The King in the North!”

“And he knelt, and laid his longsword at her [Catelyn’s] feet” [796].

Martin deviates from “bend” the knee to “bow” in this instance, thereby framing the POV and punning the word “bow”.  In each case, Robb is out front and elevated symbolically and literally.

This is terrific! I also enjoyed your write vs. wight analysis on the Bran's Growing Powers thread. I hope you don't mind if I paraphrase it here? You noted the William Shakespeare was arrested for poaching in real life, as was the character Will in the AGoT prologue, that Gared's name could be a play on Edgar (Allan Poe) and you and - I'm not 100% clear who began the post and who was commenting - Ravenous Reader? - noted that Ser Waymar (who is wearing a marten fur cloak) could be a play on GRR Martin. Really nice catches!

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10 minutes ago, Seams said:

Good observations. There is so much horse-related stuff to reexamine, if the "whores" connection is correct. It will be interesting to see how the references differ between male and female characters. It would make sense that Cersei would see her rival for power as a "Horse" and, given her plan to frame Margaery for infidelity, as a "whore" at the same time. I think sometimes the pun is implied (LIke using the word filly, instead of horse), even if GRRM doesn't write out the exact sound-alike word.

Yes, I think Jon calls that horse Sweet Lady. I am starting to try to notice uses of the word "sweet," as it comes up a lot. I don't know if it links people to sweet foods (lemon cakes? fruit?) or to words like west or stew and steward. Or none of the above. It may be a straightforward term of endearment with no deeper meaning. ;)

This is terrific! I also enjoyed your write vs. wight analysis on the Bran's Growing Powers thread. I hope you don't mind if I paraphrase it here? You noted the William Shakespeare was arrested for poaching in real life, as was the character Will in the AGoT prologue, that Gared's name could be a play on Edgar (Allan Poe) and you and - I'm not 100% clear who began the post and who was commenting - Ravenous Reader? - noted that Ser Waymar (who is wearing a marten fur cloak) could be a play on GRR Martin. Really nice catches!

YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!  RAVENOUS READER AND I JUST FIGURED THAT OUT ON BRAN'S GROWING POWERS THREAD!!!:rofl:

RAVENOUS READER SAID:

If Will  = Shakespeare = ('one with') the environment = natural order = the hierarchy of authors;

and if Ser Waymar desires to disrupt the natural order;

assuming my thesis that Martin surreptitiously desires to silence or subvert Shakespeare;

Then the upstart lordling = GRRM!

Considering his penchant of constructing things in threes, why would GRRM make playful allusions to two writers, without doing the same for the third ranger?

Assuming this symmetry holds true, this suggests that 'Ser Waymar' is also 'way more' than we think he is!

I've tried playing with various permutations of GRRM's full name, 'George Raymond Richard Martin' but this is the best I can come up with:

Way-mar = Mar-tin

Ray-mond = Way-mar...!  (granted, maybe I am overreaching here!)

Do any of you have some more convincing ideas about the meta-significance of this ('minor') character?

 

THEN I SAID:

 

MIND BLOWN! AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!

 I LOVE THE MAR-TIN THING, AND IF I MAY ADD, Royce's cloak is made of fur from  MARTEN !  HAR HAR HAR!!!!

I THINK IT IS TRUE - MARTIN/MARTEN AND YOUR WORD PLAY - Martin aligns himself with the two writers he pays homage to, doesn't he?  We must look out for a homage to William Golding!

SO YOU BEST HIE TO SEAMS WITH YOUR AWESOME PUNNING!!!

It must be true - great minds DO think alike!

I wish I knew how to tag like RR does.  I will have to ask her how she does that!

I think it is hilarious how we all came up with it at the same time!:cheers:

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I'm not sure of this qualifies for this thread, but, I mean this is a serious way...

Ossifer Plumm= ossified; to make something unable to change. To become hard like bone.

"And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?"

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3 hours ago, evita mgfs said:

YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!  RAVENOUS READER AND I JUST FIGURED THAT OUT ON BRAN'S GROWING POWERS THREAD!!!...

 

It must be true - great minds DO think alike! ...

...

I think it is hilarious how we all came up with it at the same time!

I didn't come up with it - I was paraphrasing your thread! That's why I named you guys in my comment. Sorry if that was unclear. I give you full credit - these are astoundingly great finds.

 

44 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm not sure of this qualifies for this thread, but, I mean this is a serious way...

Ossifer Plumm= ossified; to make something unable to change. To become hard like bone.

"And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?"

Good one! I think the plum name is meaningful, too. This is a tangent to the pun discussion, but Cersei talks about Ossifer Plumm dying at his bedding just after she had been served a hard-boiled egg that turns out to have a fetal chick in it. There are several scenes where plums and eggs are served together. I think the significance of the plums might be that they have pits inside, instead of seeds, but maybe your point is more relevant: a pit can also be called a stone. Since Ossifer supposedly fathered a child after he had died, maybe there was an implied message about getting blood from a stone. How would that compare to the message, "The seed is strong"?

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steel / steal

There seems to be some wordplay relating to the theft of swords. Since the most valuable and desirable swords tend to be Valyrian steel, the pun seems to be on the words steel and steal. This is a little longer than what I've aimed for with these pun posts, but bear with me.

Tywin stole the sword Ice and had it reforged and made into the swords that came to be known as Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. Tyrion wonders where Tywin got the Valyrian steel to make the two new swords and realizes at Joffrey's wedding reception that he should have sent the sword Ice back to Robb Stark. Sansa sees Ser Ilyn without her father's sword and immediately worries about what happened to it. Like guest right, it seems that people just know that Valyrian steel swords belong to certain houses and should be returned to them if the individual who possessed the sword is deceased.

Somehow the sword itself also knows that it is supposed to be grey, like the Stark color. So armorer Tobho Mott finds he is unable to color the blades crimson, to meet Tywin's request for "Lannister red": 

"I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but—"

This morning on the Let's Find The Swords thread, I read a great theory by @Modesty Lannister that included a strong point (ha! a pun) about the twelve named Valyrian steel swords being given to the houses that signed the pact between the First Men and the Children of the Forest. Those swords had, to use Modesty's term, "proper" places in the houses to which they were originally given. In the civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons, a number of those swords became separated from their houses or were lost altogether. In this theory, possession of the swords is a way of either advancing or suppressing the magic in the world. So steel / steal would be a major cause and/or effect of the current war and unrest throughout Westeros.

Recalling the swords / words wordplay, I am now making a number of new connections between the notion of sword theft and house words or informal slogans: "paying the iron price" is a point of pride for the Ironborn, justifying theft and plunder. The Royce words, "We Remember," and the general saying, "The North Remembers," are like the sword that won't willingly change color.

You can also connect this to the Valyrian steel dagger that the cat's paw tried to use to murder Bran. Who owned it? Maybe it was stolen, or lost in a bet or was entirely unknown to the suspect. It's clear very early in the plot that it's important to identify ownership of these special steel blades, to ensure that they swords are in the right hands.

Edited by Seams

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18 hours ago, Seams said:

steel / steal...

... Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. ...

Recalling the swords / words wordplay, I am now making a number of new connections between the notion of sword theft and house words or informal slogans: "paying the iron price" is a point of pride for the Ironborn, justifying theft and plunder. The Royce words, "We Remember," and the general saying, "The North Remembers," are like the sword that won't willingly change color.

Forge / Forget

One of the points I meant to make in the steal / steel post is about the possible wordplay between "old swords remember" and the pun of forge and forget. It suddenly struck me that Tobho Mott's name could be a sort of anagram of "hot tomb" and the scales fell from my eyes - the crypt under Winterfell isn't a permanent resting place, it's a forge where old Starks are reforged into new weapons. Maybe that's why Bran and Rickon and the other Stark kids played down there: when they emerged, they were the new weapons made out of the old. That also means that Hodor, Osha, the Reeds, Summer, Grey Wind, Maester Luwin and - ugh - Big and Little Walder may have picked up some Starknitude. And Theon is somewhat rejuvenated down there after his visit with Lady Dustin. Unless maybe you have to take an iron sword to get the benefit of the reforging.

What does it mean, though, that old swords remember? Is the forge / forget pun not a match? Maybe they forget everything but their enemies, like the punchline of an insensitive joke an Irish friend told me. So maybe the reforging creates a rejuvenated weapon, but the memories are not forgotten. Should I be comparing this to Beric Dondarrion as well?

If we're supposed to compare buildings to an armorer's forge, I thought the Red Keep is another obvious example where the building's name sounds like a "hot tomb." Ned leaving the North for King's Landing could be compared to walking into a fiery forge where he is melted down, as his sword will be later. He is certainly divided into two, like Ice, anyway.

The mysterious lower levels of the Red Keep contain dragon skulls, making it very tomb-like. Arya, Tyrion and Shae spend time down there. Are they picking up "reforging" magic from the dragons, as visitors to the Winterfell crypt may pick up mojo from Stark bones?

Another pun may underscore this comparison: bellows / below. Maybe the lower you go, the hotter things get? A bellows metaphor could also help to tease out the meaning of wind references in the books.

The idea of a tomb as a forge may also apply to the place Arya hid Needle instead of throwing it in the canal with her other possessions. She hid it in a cavity behind a stone on some steps leading down to the water. I hope she doesn't forget it's there.

Edited by Seams

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The septon at Castle Black is Cellador... cellar door.

The ice cells that hold "meat" for an indefinite amount of time. And interestingly enough, the phrase "cellar door" is considered the most (or in the top two) of the most beautiful phrase in the English language.

Jon, Dance 10: "It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through."

This is also heavy foreshadowing of what is to come for Jon.

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9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The septon at Castle Black is Cellador... cellar door.

The ice cells that hold "meat" for an indefinite amount of time. And interestingly enough, the phrase "cellar door" is considered the most (or in the top two) of the most beautiful phrase in the English language.

Jon, Dance 10: "It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through."

This is also heavy foreshadowing of what is to come for Jon.

Good ones! Thank you for this. I've been trying to puzzle out the meaning of the pie with the birds in it - I think it's a metaphor for rebirth, with the birds (that should be baked and dead) "hatching" from the pie. Besides Arya's friend Hot Pie, the only other significant "pie" word I could think of was the name of Grand Maester Pycelle who, I believe, has been conniving with Tywin to oppress and manipulate the realm. Your insight into Cellador may help to clarify the pie symbolism by showing that it has a similar function to cells. Certainly people like Tyrion and Jaime and the northern bannermen at Harrenhal (not to mention Bloodraven) are reborn when they emerge from the cells where they have been imprisoned. Usually it's the jailer who frees the person in the cell - which is an interesting commentary on the relationship between Jaime and Tyrion, as Jaime frees Tyrion before he goes up the ladder to confront Tywin. And, on the pie topic again, might explain why Joffrey would be the one freeing the birds from the big fake pie - he is not so much a liberator, but a failed jailer.

So what do you think the link could be between sell swords and cells?

Edited by Seams

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Kof, nails / nails, wine / swine

Onomatopoeia wordplay, I think, with some puns on the side.

GRRM directs our attention to the fake pie that is the centerpiece of Joffrey and Margaery's wedding feast in a number of ways. The device that most intrigued me was that Joffrey's last words seem to focus on the pie. The reader assumes that Joffrey is choking on the pie or that he wants people to know that there is poison in the pie. Of course, the pigeon pie he is eating is one that was set at Tyrion's place and is not part of the mummers (?) pie, opened moments before with Ser Ilyn's silver sword, releasing the live birds inside.

I found an old, archived thread that started to list "Last Words" of characters as they die, but there wasn't much attempt to analyze any of the words. I am also a believer in the larger context, and that you can't limit your search for meaning to the immediate words or sentences. So let's examine the series of Joffrey's last words, as he focuses on the pie and after the poison (or magic spell or whatever) has begun to affect his throat:

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie."

"It's ill luck not to eat the pie."

"See, it's good."

"Dry, though. Needs washing down."

"I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . . "

"It's, kof, the pie, noth - kof, pie."

"I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof . . . "

A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still.

Joffrey began to claw at his throat, his nails tearing bloody gouges in the flesh. Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone.

As he did, the boy's eyes met Tyrion's. He has Jaime's eyes.

Joffrey was making a dry clacking noise, trying to speak. His eyes bulged white with terror, and he lifted a hand . . . reaching for his uncle, or pointing . . . Is he begging my forgiveness, or does he think I can save him?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the opening of the pie and the birds flying out represents a kind of rebirth. There's a huge focus on Tyrion in these "final words," so the rebirth may have to do with Tyrion. But the pie Tyrion DOES NOT eat is the pie that Joffrey DOES eat, and it contains dead pigeons. So the big fake pie was the rebirth pie, and the pie Joffrey eats seems to be the death pie that was placed at Tyrion's place.

After the line about washing down (with wine), Joffrey switches gears to Tyrion riding the pig. Tyrion has just refused to ride the pig but, when he meets up with Penny on the Selaesori Qhoran, he will ride the pig. With the pig, Tyrion becomes a "knight" and wears armor. There is a symbolic Odysseus recreation, with Penny as both Circe and Penelope and Tyrion as the hero. Tyrion also learns how Penny plays games - not the games or rules Tyrion already knows. Tyrion further progresses in getting in touch with his "inner fool." So riding the pig is a major rebirth for Tyrion, and the mean-spirited remarks by Joffrey foreshadow this.

I'm not 100% sure yet, but riding the pig seems to be a transition for Tyrion from being associated with wine to being associated with the pig. I know the Selaesori Qhoran runs out of wine and he has to switch to drinking rum at about the point he starts riding the pig. It may not be an absolute dividing line between wine and swine: he already has a sort of snout from having his nose cut off in battle, and there are other pig references predating his trip to Essos. I have to pay better attention on my next re-read.

Now the thing that caught my eye in Joffrey's last words: the word "kof." This onomatopoeia stands out to me. Why not spell out "cough"? Or use another word that would express Joffrey's inability to draw breath? Or write out, "Joffrey tried to clear his throat with a little cough."  Maybe I'm delusional, but could "kof" be short hand for "King of . . . "? King of pig, King of the pie? I can't (be) king?

Then I've pulled out the sentences describing Joffrey's attempts to breathe. I have picked out words that seem to carry extra meaning: river, reed, claw, nails, stone. Rhaegar died in a river. Is the reed an allusion to Howland or Meera or Jojen Reed? The claw seems like an allusion to Jon Snow, who not only has a sword named Longclaw, but who had a wight try to reach down his throat to kill him. Then the nails (see below) and then a reference to stone, which is associated with death (Lady Stoneheart, statues in the Winterfell crypt). There may be other words in these sentences that refer to important motifs in the books. I'm not sure how to decipher them all, but the meaning of Joffrey's "last words" is enriched by the allusions here, I'm sure.

An interesting digression: Nails. Based on a search using the "A Search of ice and Fire" site, in AGoT, nails always refer to fingernails on a human, often used during sex. Starting with ACoK, nails also refer to metal pieces for constructing ships or doors, among other practical and non-violent uses. As ACoK progresses, nails start to be used for nailing a person's tongue to a wall or nailing antlers onto a person's head. In ASoS, a crown is nailed to the direwolf head sewn onto Robb Stark's body. Slave children are nailed to posts as Dany arrives at Meereen. Then we come back to human nails but now they are being used for self-harm: Joffrey uses his own nails to create bloody gouges and Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart has "shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails." In AFfC, all four types of nails seem to be present: construction nails, regular human nails, metal nails used for torture or degradation, and human nails that cause injury. In ADwD, a fifth type of nail is introduced (or maybe a fifth and sixth): mother-of-pearl nails on Jaime's fake hand and black nails on Jon Connington's greyscale afflicted hand. I'm not sure what all this adds up to, except it's another one of GRRM's very interesting ways of using a little word in a big way. The evolution of nails.

But back to Joffrey's final moments. After the nails and stone, Joffrey can't speak but he again turns his attention to Tyrion. It's not clear what he is trying to convey to his uncle, but it seems as if the last person he consciously looks at is Tyrion. Aside from the rebirth imagery, I think Tywin's first words spoken after Joffrey's death give us a clue about Joffrey's final focus on Tyrion: "The boy is gone, Cersei," Lord Tywin said. So we have another situation that fits Maester Aemon's advice: "Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took the ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Joffrey is dead, Tyrion can now be born.

But Robert Strong can also be born. . . .

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On 3/31/2016 at 9:49 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The letters of "Daenerys" rearranged spell "Ser Dayne"

And of course, Sarella is Alleras backwards...

There's an "almost anagram" with Sansa, Alayne, and Alysanne.  Among theories concerning this that I recall, one is Sansa becoming a Good Queen Alysanne 2.0 figure, carrying a bit of "Sansa" and "Alayne" with her when she becomes queen.

Arya and Sansa hide under the identity Cat and Alayne.  Catelyn is pronounced "cat eh lynn," which sounds like Cat Alayne.  Arya and Sansa are symbolically their mother in new form, like their father's sword Ice is in a new form as Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

Alayne is also a near anagram of Lyanna and Laena.  Will Sansa's role in Winds and Dream bring her closer to a parallel to Lyanna Stark?  If so, in which way?  Will she marry a Targaryen?  Will she give birth to a child at the end of the series?  Like Laena Velaryon, Sansa could inherit the throne if Dornish Law was in effect.  And Sansa almost does when it's thought that all her siblings are dead.  Laena is passed over in the line of succession after a Great Council; Sansa is disinherited in Robb's will.  Will we also see her married to a Daemon Targaryen parallel in the series?  (Would Harry the Heir possibly parallel Daemon in some way?  Or is Tyrion a Daemon parallel?  :dunno:)

 

On 4/1/2016 at 5:19 PM, Seams said:

Hair / Heir - Obviously a central pun for the plot involving the blonde children of Cersei and the dark-haired children of Robert. This also seems significant for the auburn-haired offspring of Catelyn and Ned contrasted with their dark-haired siblings and half-sibling.

Also, a weird sort of anagram struck me as a possibility recently: could Nissa Nissa and assassin be a deliberate word game by GRRM? I know he says he adapted the name from an ancient Native American myth, but it seems so different from other names in the books.

In NA mythology, Nissa is the Grandmother Moon.  In the series, there's a myth of dragons spawning from a second moon destroyed (read: sacrificed) by the sun.  Similarly, the forging Lightbringer in Nissa Nissa's heart is an allegory for conception/birth of a son/savior figure.  Catelyn's mother, Minisa Whent, dies in childbed while giving birth to a (stillborn) son.  Minisa resembles "my Nissa." 

On 4/2/2016 at 2:05 PM, Seams said:

Eyes / Ice - This is a completely new one to my mind, and I haven't collected the evidence to determine whether it's one of GRRM's deliberate pairs or not. We have a number of blind people - Maester Aemon, Arya, Merillion. Timett son of Timett puts out one of his eyes to show how tough he is. We have a Wall made of ice with watchers on the wall. We have the incredibly rich symbolism around swords and a sword named Ice that becomes two swords. Ned takes his sword into the gods wood to clean it, and there he is observed by the hart tree. Not sure how to connect all the dots, though, if at all.

This may be relevant or not: the German word for iron is "Eisen".

Ice, eyes, baby.

 

On 4/2/2016 at 2:18 PM, ravenous reader said:

If we're going Deutsch, then there's 'Gift' which means 'poison' in German -- and would have obvious relevance in terms of GRRM's cynical conception of giving 'The Gift'...

Remember 'all Euron's gifts are poisoned'...and Arya is not far behind!

Stark also means "strong" in German.  I wonder if there's supposed to be a connection in some way between House Stark and House Strong?  House Strong once held Harrenhal.  It's thought that Sansa might inherit Harrenhal.  (Reference imagery of bats with Sansa here.  Some think she inherits via LF, then takes over; I think Robb made Sansa Shella Whent's heir, leaving her with her own castle and disinheriting her in the same stroke.) 

On 4/11/2016 at 11:02 AM, yomi said:

Just some small corrections:

Sam gives the books to the sailors to pay for the pssage and they intend to sell them to the Citadel. So these weapons likely made it into the hands for which they were intended, the Citadel just doesn't get them for free.

 

Littlefinger only came to King's Landing after Lysa convinced Jon Arryn that he was clever with money, so only some time after Jon becoming Robert's hand. Back when Aerys killed Rickard and Bran he was likely at the little tower at the fingers, licking his wounds from the duel with Brandon.

 

Yeah, pomegranate is "apple garnet" or rather "garnet apple".

So we get Arya throwing (like you throw a grenade) a red (which is the colour of garnet) at Sansa, which causes Sansa's dress to become black (like something blackened by a grenade explosion)? I love your observation!

Just being nitpicky: Arya threw a blood orange, not a pomegranate, at Sansa.

On 4/19/2016 at 8:11 AM, Seams said:

Be warned: a tiny TWoW spoiler in this comment.

Knows / Nose -

(I just posted this in a thread discussing Penny's purpose in the series, but it is something I have been meaning to explore on this thread, too.)

Tyrion has lost his nose, but he tells Penny that

  Reveal hidden contents

he likes her nose and wants her to keep it

I think this is a deliberate echo of the, "You know nothing, Jon Snow!" line from the days when Ygritte was educating Jon Snow about everything he didn't learn within the double wall of Winterfell. Penny is Tyrion's Ygritte. (She is also a father figure, as shown by Tyrion's nightmares, a Cersei/sister figure and some other things in his allegorical voyages.) Penny knows (nose) and Tyrion does not know (no nose). But there is hope that he will learn, if he will start listening to her.

I suspect this pun is also linked with the word "snow". We may know more when we find out whether Jeyne Poole / fArya loses the tip of her nose to frostbite.

Xaro Xhoan Daxos, with his "beak" of a nose, encrusted with jewels, also seems important to fully understanding the wordplay here. Maybe this is a clue - a nose that is like a beak might suggest a raven. Ravens represent insight and communication and being "all seeing." So the guy with the biggest, fanciest nose is probably someone who "knows" what is going on.

The character Rorge, whose nose is also missing, is probably another clue. He certainly appears to be someone who not only does not know how to get along with others, but also doesn't care to know. Maybe he represents willful ignorance. An interesting contrast to Tyrion, though, who continues to want to learn and read, even after losing his nose.

Tyrion's nose itches when something suspicious occurs.  The itching is almost like a sort of "spidey sense."  He knows something's wrong with his nose. 

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20 hours ago, Seams said:

Kof

"I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . . "

"It's, kof, the pie, noth - kof, pie."

"I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof . . . "

Now the thing that caught my eye in Joffrey's last words: the word "kof." This onomatopoeia stands out to me. Why not spell out "cough"? Or use another word that would express Joffrey's inability to draw breath? Or write out, "Joffrey tried to clear his throat with a little cough."  Maybe I'm delusional, but could "kof" be short hand for "King of . . . "? King of pig, King of the pie? I can't (be) king?

That GRRM. Such a wordsmith! I just realized that he may be punning on

coughing / faux king

Squee! You slay me, o great one.

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2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Or is Tyrion a Daemon parallel?

Well, he is the twisted demon monkey..!

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

In NA mythology, Nissa is the Grandmother Moon.  In the series, there's a myth of dragons spawning from a second moon destroyed (read: sacrificed) by the sun.  Similarly, the forging Lightbringer in Nissa Nissa's heart is an allegory for conception/birth of a son/savior figure.  Catelyn's mother, Minisa Whent, dies in childbed while giving birth to a (stillborn) son.  Minisa resembles "my Nissa." 

Nice.  This is the passage:

Quote

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

So, not only is the moon sacrificed to the sun, but reciprocally the sun is also sacrificed to the moon which 'drinks the fire of the sun.'  Symbolically, Dany was the moon to Drogo her sun-and-stars, whose life 'fire' was swallowed by Drogon who emerged from the pyre after Dany had sacrificed Drogo in the blood ritual.  Dany like so many Targaryens before her is compared to 'an egg.'

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Arya and Sansa hide under the identity Cat and Alayne.  Catelyn is pronounced "cat eh lynn," which sounds like Cat Alayne.  Arya and Sansa are symbolically their mother in new form, like their father's sword Ice is in a new form as Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

I like how you show how 'forging' is a euphemism for sex, and likewise 'swords' are offspring. It's also noteworthy that 'consummation' is very close to 'consuming' (hence one and/or both parties symbolically drink/s and/or eats each other).  A sword is literally forged in ice and fire via a process of alternating extremes of hot and cold, wet and dry.  Interestingly, the passage you quoted reminded me of another in which Oathkeeper's Valyrian steel is similarly described as 'drinking the sun' the Lannister crimson stain:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. "The colors are strange," he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. "How did you get this patterning? I've never seen anything like it."

"Nor I, my lord," said the armorer. "I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. 

So, forging a sword is like forging an uneasy alliance between Houses -- mirrored by the uneasy alliance of colors 'lapping' (another drinking metaphor) at each other in the sword...'one-but-over-wrinkled').  As we've been repeatedly told, the best way of forging an alliance  is via marriage. This 'forging' is a dangerous process, as can be seen by the number of weddings in Westeros which culminate in murder of various members of the wedding party!  Just as the colors in the sword vie for ascendance, the Houses vie for dominance even in the expression of their children.

 Another way of holding the realm together is by forging a common currency.  GRRM has lots of fun punning with the idea of people cast as metals, coins, and swords. e.g. 'golden dragons,' 'silver stags,' 'golden crowns,' Stannis as iron, Renly as copper and Robert as steel, there's Longclaw Jon's 'bastard' sword, and my personal favorite the notorious Targaryen coin-flip of the gods.

What marriage does Oathkeeper represent?  There are several possibilities:  Targaryen (grey Valyrian steel)-Lannister (crimson red), Stark (grey)-Lannister (crimson red), or Stark (grey)-Targaryen (blood red), or Stark (blood red, Ned's blood which was drunk by his own sword)-and another 'grey-black' party like Targaryen or bastard offshoot of the Targaryens (Bloodraven's colors are 'smoke' and red aren't they?). Whatever alliance/marriage it will be, it's hinted that it will be forged after a bitter war between the same parties leaving a wasteland of 'waves of night and blood upon some steely shore'...

Then there's this interesting passage involving Tyrion again:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Finally he gave it up and made his way up top for a breath of night air. The Selaesori Qhoran had furled her big striped sail for the night, and her decks were all but deserted. One of the mates was on the sterncastle, and amidships Moqorro sat by his brazier, where a few small flames still danced amongst the embers.

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

Here we have a repetition of the same elements: the moon has swallowed the sun, the color red is the color of blood, they're in Valyria, and Tyrion is going under the bastard name of 'Hugor Hill.' Could this be further fodder for the A+J=T contingent?  Much as I find that theory distasteful, I cannot but begrudgingly admit its merit as more and more evidence mounts.  Could this scenario presage the rebirth of a dragon, namely Tyrion?  Assuming the theory is true, Tyrion was forged from his mother Joanna  the moon who came perilously close to the fire (and who is more associated with fire than Aerys?) and cracked from the heat (she died in childbirth) birthing a deformed creature a 'lizard-lion' of sorts!  Most intriguing is the 'twin moon'...

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Stark also means "strong" in German.  I wonder if there's supposed to be a connection in some way between House Stark and House Strong?  House Strong once held Harrenhal.  It's thought that Sansa might inherit Harrenhal.  (Reference imagery of bats with Sansa here.  Some think she inherits via LF, then takes over; I think Robb made Sansa Shella Whent's heir, leaving her with her own castle and disinheriting her in the same stroke.) 

Good points!  GRRM loves to combine opposites in one, hence all this punning! 'fire and ice...love and hate can mate...one but over wrinkled' etc.  So, Stark combining the values of barrenness and fertility...the seed is strong and the seed germinates underground!

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Arya threw a blood orange, not a pomegranate, at Sansa.

That's true, but there is a symbolic connection nevertheless between the pomegranate as grenade (the word 'grenade' is literally derived from the pomegranate) and the thrown orange.  If you've ever tried to eat a pomegranate, you'll understand how the fruit's seeds tend to explode blood-red juice all over you!  So, it's significant that the orange is a 'blood' variety and 'explodes' all over Sansa ruining her dress!  There's also a blood orange on the platter of fruit which Littlefinger serves up to Sansa, linking the pomegranate with the blood orange as one of Littlefinger's devices:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

The new name would take some getting used to. "Games? I . . . I suppose it would depend . . ."

Grisel reappeared before he could say more, balancing a large platter. She set it down between them. There were apples and pears and pomegranates, some sad-looking grapes, a huge blood orange. The old woman had brought a round of bread as well, and a crock of butter. Petyr cut a pomegranate in two with his dagger, offering half to Sansa. "You should try and eat, my lady."

"Thank you, my lord." Pomegranate seeds were so messy; Sansa chose a pear instead, and took a small delicate bite. It was very ripe. The juice ran down her chin.

 

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Tyrion's nose itches when something suspicious occurs.  The itching is almost like a sort of "spidey sense."  He knows something's wrong with his nose. 

Very interesting.  Tyrion is sometimes portrayed as quite doglike...Doesn't The Hound say that a dog can sniff out lies?  And in GOT, Tyrion is described in one instance as 'wolfish' and in the prophecy as 'snarling'...Neither of those are particularly dragonesque adjectives, although the latter could be cat-like!

Edited by ravenous reader

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47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

<snip>

So, forging a sword is like forging an uneasy alliance between Houses -- mirrored by the uneasy alliance of colors 'lapping' (another drinking metaphor) at each other in the sword...'one-but-over-wrinkled').  As we've been repeatedly told, the best way of forging an alliance  is via marriage. This 'forging' is a dangerous process, as can be seen by the number of weddings in Westeros which culminate in murder of various members of the wedding party!  Just as the colors in the sword vie for ascendance, the Houses vie for dominance even in the expression of their children.

 <snip>

What marriage does Oathkeeper represent?  There are several possibilities:  Targaryen (grey Valyrian steel)-Lannister (crimson red), Stark (grey)-Lannister (crimson red), or Stark (grey)-Targaryen (blood red), or Stark (blood red, Ned's blood which was drunk by his own sword)-and another 'grey-black' party like Targaryen or bastard offshoot of the Targaryens (Bloodraven's colors are 'smoke' and red aren't they?). Whatever alliance/marriage it will be, it's hinted that it will be forged after a bitter war between the same parties leaving a wasteland of 'waves of night and blood upon some steely shore'...

Thanks for pointing out Ice "drinking the sun" of the red color.  I had forgotten that part.  In that passage, the Valyrian Steel is described as "stubborn," and Sansa stubbornly refuses to bend her knees during the cloaking ceremony at her wedding.  (When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness.

While I recognize that Oathkeeper might symbolize Sansa and Tyrion's union, I can't shake the feeling that their marriage will ultimately be annulled.  Whomever Sansa is ultimately married to, I feel her fate is to form a cadet branch of Starks, probably at Harrenhal.  If this is the case, perhaps this is the purpose of Ice being forged into two new swords: House Stark will branch into two houses and need two swords for both.  (Hmm, and currently Sansa is living at the Gates of the Moon with another cadet branch, House Royce.  Foreshadowing, or inspiration for Sansa?  Sansa's transformation begins as early as AGoT.  She loses Lady and is already associated with bats in the first half of the of AGoT: when Ned takes his daughters to pray in the KL Godswood, Sansa falls asleep during the Hour of the Bat and Arya, during the Hour of the Wolf.)

Other possible candidates for one of the swords are Jon (who is half Targaryen and half Stark - if he ultimately survives the Ides of Marsh and publicly acknowledges his parentage), Aegon (if he marries Sansa or Arya), and Rickon (although I'm not sure what the "red" would then symbolize).

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Here we have a repetition of the same elements: the moon has swallowed the sun, the color red is the color of blood, they're in Valyria, and Tyrion is going under the bastard name of 'Hugor Hill.' Could this be further fodder for the A+J=T contingent?  Much as I find that theory distasteful, I cannot but begrudgingly admit its merit as more and more evidence mounts.  Could this scenario presage the rebirth of a dragon, namely Tyrion?  Assuming the theory is true, Tyrion was forged from his mother Joanna  the moon who came perilously close to the fire (and who is more associated with fire than Aerys?) and cracked from the heat (she died in childbirth) birthing a deformed creature a 'lizard-lion' of sorts!  Most intriguing is the 'twin moon'...

I share your A+J sentiments, but feel that the chimeric twin theory has merit as well.

 

 

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On 21.4.2016 at 4:00 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm not sure of this qualifies for this thread, but, I mean this is a serious way...

Ossifer Plumm= ossified; to make something unable to change. To become hard like bone.

"And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?"

So I guess in Ossifer Plumm we have another Osiris candidate?

 

On 23.4.2016 at 4:42 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

The septon at Castle Black is Cellador... cellar door.

The ice cells that hold "meat" for an indefinite amount of time. And interestingly enough, the phrase "cellar door" is considered the most (or in the top two) of the most beautiful phrase in the English language.

Jon, Dance 10: "It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through."

This is also heavy foreshadowing of what is to come for Jon.

Septon Cellador is also one who likes the stuff found behind the wine cellar door.

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