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Dayne / Payne / Reyne / Jeyne

There is a current thread discussing the fate of Jeyne Westerling, who will be featured in TWoW, according to GRRM. I offered my opinion that she is likely to lead a revenge mission against Houses Frey, Lannister and/or Bolton, basing my theory on the "Reynes of Castamere" allusions in the Spicer and Westerling stories. 

Writing out the Jeyne / Reyne connections reminded me of the longer string of rhyming wordplay (adding in Payne and Dayne) and led to a new realization: the names Jeyne and Reyne contain the word "eye," perhaps linking them to the central pun around the sword Ice and eyes. (The pun extends to eggs because the German word for "egg" is "Ei" and to iron because the German word for "iron" is "Eisen.")

Hoster Tully says very little during his time onstage but he does say that Robb has his eyes. One of Robb's conditions for negotiating with the Lannisters is that the sword Ice be returned to him at Riverrun. Of course, this condition is not fulfilled. But maybe Robb obtains the "eye" he desires by marring Jeyne (jEYnE). If I'm right about Jeyne Westerling leading a "Revenge of the Reynes" scenario in the next book, this might also show that Robb achieves a post-mortem victory for "Ice," in spite of Tywin's efforts to wipe out the Stark ancestral sword (similar to his effort to wipe out House Reyne). 

At first glance, Dayne and Payne don't have he right letters to be part of "eye" wordplay with Reyne and Jeyne. But there may be some puns around "Aye" and "eye." Ser Ilyn Payne is the King's Justice, and I speculated long ago that the sword Ice was somehow half of a weapon that would have been named Justice. Readers are introduced to Ned Stark when he is meting out the King's Justice to the deserter, Gared, using the sword Ice. That sword later goes to Ser Ilyn, who uses it to behead Ned Stark. Later, Ser Ilyn becomes a training partner for Jaime as he develops his left-handed sword skills. Jaime had been knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne. 

Wordplay is a bottomless rabbit hole. If "Dayne" could almost be arranged to become "Ned aye," this sheds a whole new light (so to speak) on Ser Arthur Dayne. Is he symbolically Ned's eye? Ned kills him, which might be similar to Timmet son of Timmet putting out his own eye. There is a lot of Oedipus symbolism in The Sworn Sword, and the Oedipus story involves the flawed hero king putting out his own eyes. 

Podrick Payne has a sty on his eye. I assumed that wordplay somehow linked to the pig motif, as a "sty" can be the name of a pig pen. 

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She looked at her son, watched him as he listened to the lords debate, frowning, troubled, yet wedded to his war. He had pledged himself to marry a daughter of Walder Frey, but she saw his true bride plain before her now: the sword he had laid on the table. (AGoT, Catelyn XI)

If Jeyne is part of the rhyming wordplay with all these swordsmen, we should probably examine the other Jeynes in the same light. Jeyne Poole, pretending to be Arya, has been tortured by Ramsey at Winterfell. There is a Jeyne at the inn at the crossroads who strongly resembles Arya Stark. (Willow seems more like Sansa.) If the Jeyne characters are associated with Arya, certainly she is one of the few women with a sword. Her evolution as a killer may foreshadow Jeyne Westerling's violent future as part of the revenge plot I anticipate. 

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27 minutes ago, Nadden said:

Sorry just loose thoughts

It's all good. I have a lot of loose thoughts, too. I keep hoping they will all fall into place and deeper meanings will become obvious after the last book.

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On 5/21/2022 at 6:48 AM, Seams said:

Writing out the Jeyne / Reyne connections reminded me of the longer string of rhyming wordplay (adding in Payne and Dayne) and led to a new realization: the names Jeyne and Reyne contain the word "eye," perhaps linking them to the central pun around the sword Ice and eyes. (The pun extends to eggs because the German word for "egg" is "Ei" and to iron because the German word for "iron" is "Eisen.")

Additionally, the verb “egg” meaning to goad, incite, related to “edge” meaning corner, point and also sword.

Also in Theon’s words. “Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, it rhymes with pain,” connecting Jeyne, pain and Payne. I’m not the first to notice “Ilyn Payne” is a homophone to “ill in pain.”

Regarding the revenge plot - a connection between the Reynes and Robb:

Ser Robb Reyne was a knight from House Reyne during the reign of Daeron II Targaryen. He was considered one of the finest knights of his time.  He fought on the side of Daemon Blackfyre during the Blackfyre rebellion.

Robb Stark and Robb Reyne are the only two instances of people named “Robb.”

 

On 5/21/2022 at 6:48 AM, Seams said:

Hoster Tully says very little during his time onstage but he does say that Robb has his eyes. One of Robb's conditions for negotiating with the Lannisters is that the sword Ice be returned to him at Riverrun. Of course, this condition is not fulfilled. But maybe Robb obtains the "eye" he desires by marring Jeyne (jEYnE). If I'm right about Jeyne Westerling leading a "Revenge of the Reynes" scenario in the next book, this might also show that Robb achieves a post-mortem victory for "Ice," in spite of Tywin's efforts to wipe out the Stark ancestral sword (similar to his effort to wipe out House Reyne). 

Since Hoster Tully mentions Robb having his eyes on more than one occasion, I checked for anagrams of “Robbseyes” and came up with “obeyers” and “sobbers.” Quite remarkable since “obeyer” alludes to “Oathkeeper” and “sobber” to “Widow’s Wail.”

 

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  Quote  from the “What about Jeyne Westerling” thread

When the girl had gone, Catelyn turned back to her father and smoothed the thin white hair across his brow. "An Eddard and a Brandon," she sighed softly. "And perhaps in time a Hoster. Would you like that?" He did not answer, but she had never expected that he would. As the sound of the rain on the roof mingled with her father's breathing, she thought about Jeyne. The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important. (Storm, Catelyn III)

This phrase seems significant to me, telling us that the rain and Lord Tully's breathing have mingled, and that the combination leads to Jeyne. We know that the Tarbeks and the Reynes were killed by Tywin who threw the Tarbek heir in a well and drowned the Reynes with a river. If I'm reading the clues correctly, I think this union of Jeyne with Robb may be a "What's dead can never die" situation, where the rain and House Tully (trout, rivers) combine to become immune to drowning. (Jeyne's brother is also presumed dead after the Red Wedding, and his bloody trail led to the same river where Catelyn's body was thrown. So he might be another "ingredient" in the river soup that will eventually produce Lady Stoneheart.)

 

In the song, “the Rains of Castamere,” the rain “weeps:”

But now the rains weep o’er his hall,
with no one there to hear.

We’ve been discussing the significance of weeping women in the other thread, the weeping also echoing the sword, Widow’s Wail. Jeyne is a weeping widow. Jeyne’s weeping mingles with Hoster Tully’s breathing. Breath is the animating principle of life, intimately connected to the spirit, the soul. Also, the eyes are said to be the window to the soul. In aSoIaF, swords can be carriers of souls, like Lightbringer which is infused with Nissa Nissa’s soul, or the black iron swords of the Ironborn that “swallow souls.” Jon likens his direwolf “Ghost” to a sword. So certain swords also symbolize particular souls or parts of souls.  


Hoster Tully and Robb have the same eyes, or the same “Ice,” they are carriers of the same soul, an ancestral soul passed down from Hoster Tully through his wife Minisa to Catelyn to Robb.  

I don’t know how many readers subscribe to the idea that many main characters potentially harbor ancestral souls, or that the latter are passed on in families, but I do think this is the case. There are hints such as “Azor Ahai reborn,” as well as Jon’s direwolf “Ghost,” the Undying waiting for Daenerys for a thousand years or Bloodraven following births in the Stark household, waiting for the birth of Bran. “Salt and Smoke” from which Azor Ahai is to be reborn refer to two ancestral souls which need to be reborn in one person imo. Melisandre takes a portion of Stannis’ soul and gives birth to a shadow with his face, twice. According to the smallfolk, a mermaid took Patchface’s seed in exchange for teaching him to breathe – giving him back his life. Did she capture part of his escaping soul as he was dying, giving it back to him so that he could retain his life and most of his faculties? Night’s Queen took the Night’s King soul as well as his seed. What did she do with his soul? Was it reborn in their children if they had any? There are names like Daemon. Ramsay is described as “a beast in human skin,” Aerys is “a crowned beast.” Are the beasts really malevolent souls reborn in both characters? Souls may be represented by swords and at times come in pairs. Are Blackfyre and Dark Sister representative of the souls of fire and ice? Are salt and smoke representative of a milder form of ice and fire, a preservative form? Are Dawn and Nightfall a pair? Which sword pairs up with the original Ice? Ice itself is broken down into a pair. Ramsay has eyes of “dirty ice.” Is dirty ice the dark personality of the soul of Ice (analogous to Stannis’ murderous soul extracted by Mel)?

 

What I have figured out is that the wind generally represents the soul or spirit. Horses of a certain color (red, black, grey, white) are vessels for particular souls, as are ships. Flowers and flour represent souls. The mill or miller / miller’s wife takes souls and passes them on to her children.

Norse mythology sees the soul or spirit as made up of several different independent parts. Such is also the Egyptian concept of the soul. With so many potential parts and options, it’s really difficult piecing together those that actually belong together in the narrative. One hypothesis is to take the Faith of  the Seven as a guide. Three male spirits making a whole (father, warrior and smith), three female spirits making a whole (crone, mother and maiden) and then there is the stranger, the lost soul from far places that probably comes in two parts (the drowned god being an aspect of the stranger).

 

Returning to Robb and the portion of soul he receives from his grandfather Hoster Tully. The name Hoster is in itself a clue. The word “Host” can refer to several things –

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"a multitude," especially an army organized for war, mid-13c., from Old French osthost "army" (10c.), from Medieval Latin hostis, in earlier use "a stranger, foreigner," in classical use "an enemy," from PIE root *ghos-ti- "stranger, guest, host."

host (n.3)

"body of Christ, consecrated bread," c. 1300, from Latin hostia "sacrifice," also "the animal sacrificed, victim," probably ultimately related to host (n.1) in its root sense of "stranger, enemy."

(Source)

In biological terms, a host is also used in terms of having a parasite, or a foreign "resident." Lord Tully complains of having "crabs" in his belly, which may be related.

“Others” is an anagram of “Hoster.”

Catelyn thinks Jeyne has good hips. I would say she is a good ship (hips/ship), a good vessel for a soul, Robbs soul. No need for a direwolf. In fact, Robb keeps Grey Wind away from Jeyne because she is nervous around the direwolf. As “Widow’s Wail,” the weeping woman, Jeyne may be the conduit through which Robb is reborn. Jeyne’s great-grandmother was Maggie the Frog, a maegi, most like, from Essos. We’ve seen the maegi Mirri Maz Duur perform a raising on Drogo. Like Melisandre, Jeyne may have some powers of magic and be able to “take a soul” along with a man’s seed. My premise is she took Robb’s soul, that part from Hoster (probably unknowingly) during their sexual relations and will return it to him to raise him from death. I also suspect that this soul is that of an ancestral greenseer, same as in Bran and Rickon. Reference is made to Edmure’s “one-eyed fish” and there are several other arguments suggesting Catelyn is responsible for passing on the greenseeing trait to her sons. Hints including Brynden Blackfish Tully, namesake to Brynden Bloodraven Rivers. So there we have Robb’s three “heirs” – Brynden (Brandon), Edmure and Hoster.

 

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2 hours ago, Evolett said:

Since Hoster Tully mentions Robb having his eyes on more than one occasion, I checked for anagrams of “Robbseyes” and came up with “obeyers” and “sobbers.” Quite remarkable since “obeyer” alludes to “Oathkeeper” and “sobber” to “Widow’s Wail.”

Love this! Mind blown. Astounding. 

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

I don’t know how many readers subscribe to the idea that many main characters potentially harbor ancestral souls, or that the latter are passed on in families, but I do think this is the case.

Agreed. I thought GRRM was drawing on Celtic culture with this. My understanding is that the reborn ancestor in Celtic lore would be from the same family and would have the same name in the "new" life. But maybe GRRM does not entirely subscribe to the Celtic version. I see some possible rebirths where characters have a different name. 

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

Souls may be represented by swords and at times come in pairs.

Yes! A restless or incomplete soul seeking its other half could explain the thematic pairs I have been trying to collect: shaggy and sharp, smiler and slayer, bitter and sweet, dark and bright, giant and dwarf, summer and winter, etc. If Jaime can bring together his Bracken and Blackwood hostages, I bet that will signal the reuniting of the torn fabric of Westeros once and for all. 

I have also been thinking about the "paired" swords or blades. Of course "eyes" come in sets of two; why wouldn't "Ice" also have a partner? You point out Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Dark Sister and Blackfyre, Dawn and Nightfall. @Curled Finger is going to have to help us with this. Perhaps we need a new thread to sort out all of the paired swords. If I'm right that Ice was originally Justice, its pair is probably the lost sword Truth, of House Rogare. But we also have paired blades such as Daario's matching naked ladies. Ramsay Bolton uses a flaying knife and "cleaver". Joffrey receives a sword from Tywin and requests (demands) a matching dagger from Tyrion.

Maybe Tyrion's "Half Man" nickname also links to this idea of the incomplete soul seeking (or needing) its partner. 

Fascinating. Lots of possibilities for this idea.

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

Flowers and flour represent souls. The mill or miller / miller’s wife takes souls and passes them on to her children.

I am delirious with joy over this insight. I knew that flour / flower had to be a pun, but I couldn't figure out why or how. Of course they both relate to "The seed is strong" : seeds come from flowers and can be ground up to make flour. It's part of the cycle of seasons and the fertility cycle that is at the core of this magical world of ASOIAF.

Interesting to note that Theon had sex with the Miller's wife (gave her his seed). He also connects the names Asha and Osha, noting that they sound alike. At one point, we see Asha offer up pine cones - a type of seed - as a symbol of the leadership and future stability she would offer to the Ironborn. We also see Osha emerge from the Winterfell kitchen covered with flour. Are Asha and Osha two parts of a pair that are united through Theon?

Another flour scene comes in Sansa's flashback remembering Robb and Jon Snow scaring the Stark kids in the crypt when Jon Snow emerges from a tomb covered with flour, pretending to be a ghost. If Jon is the "flour" half of the pair, who is the flower? Probably Sansa, who will later be the subject of Marillion's new composition called "Roadside Rose."

But. As the most-Tully of the Stark children, Robb may represent the river that flows, making him a different kind of "flow-er."  He was born at Riverrun, after all. Sansa is also a "little bird," according to Sandor Clegane, which makes her a fowl. In other words, this all ties in with the wolf / flow / fowl word play. 

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

The word “Host” can refer to several things –

Yes! A few years ago, I read a book called God's Hotel that explained that the words ghost, guest, host, hotel and hospital all come from the same root word. (I just wrote about Jaime's hostages - I bet that is also a related word.) I recognized immediately that GRRM had used this in creating the direwolf and guest right. You have added some additional insights by including the consecrated host an Hoster in the group of related words.

I had wondered why GRRM made inns into special locations - I think I've called them portals to other worlds, but that may be too Celtic again; he may have a slightly different purpose in mind. Maybe "crossroads" is our best clue about the role of inns: they mark places where worlds intersect. As a stand-in for the word "hotel," though, an inn could be part of this group of special words with magical powers or protections. 

The hospital variation on the theme might come from Jeyne Westerling nursing Robb after he was wounded in battle. 

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On 5/28/2022 at 7:51 PM, Seams said:

I have also been thinking about the "paired" swords or blades. Of course "eyes" come in sets of two; why wouldn't "Ice" also have a partner? You point out Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Dark Sister and Blackfyre, Dawn and Nightfall. @Curled Finger is going to have to help us with this. Perhaps we need a new thread to sort out all of the paired swords. If I'm right that Ice was originally Justice, its pair is probably the lost sword Truth, of House Rogare. But we also have paired blades such as Daario's matching naked ladies. Ramsay Bolton uses a flaying knife and "cleaver". Joffrey receives a sword from Tywin and requests (demands) a matching dagger from Tyrion.

Hey @Seams, thanks for the call out.   I will do my best to help with the pairings of named swords, et al.   By my reckoning by name alone the following "match" or reference each other in some way...

Dawn               Lightbringer          Nightfall

Ice

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Just now, Curled Finger said:

Hey @Seams, thanks for the call out.   I will do my best to help with the pairings of named swords, et al.   By my reckoning by name alone the following "match" or reference each other in some way...

Dawn               Lightbringer          Nightfall

Ice

Oh for crying out loud, all I did was tab!

Red Rain              Blackfyre                   

Heartsbane          Lamentation           Lady Forlorn         

Widows Wail         Orphan Maker

Truth                     Vigilance                Oathkeeper

Dark Sister           Blackfyre                Brightroar

Dark Sister            Lady Forlorn

Ice                         Blackfyre

Our lone sword with no match is of course, Longclaw.    Hope that helps a little.

 

 

 

 

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After reading a post by Evolett on Lady Forlorn I think I made a connection I wanted to share. In the Prologue of AGOT during the duel between Waymar and the Other we read,

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Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

In the first dueling scene, Waymar’s blood “seemed red as fire”. But because of the lack of light and the Purkinje effect the blood, that “steamed in the cold” would actually appear black. So the color of the blood, and figuratively fire, on the pale sword, wielded by the Other, that bit through Waymar’s ringmail would appear to be black and smoking.

Are we figuratively looking at the Valyrian steel sword Blackfyre once belonging to Aegon the Conqueror. What about the sword that was a beat too late, the one belonging to Waymar? What would the name of that sword figuratively be?

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“When the blades touched, the steel shattered.”

Blackfyre once dueled with Lady Forlorn during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Lady Forlorn was wielded by Ser Gwayne Corbray, a knight of the Kingsguard for Daeron Targaryen during the Battle of the Redgrass Field. Gwayne fought Daemon I Blackfyre, once Daemon Waters, who wielded Blackfyre.

Side note: The name “Daemon” seems like a bit of wordplay for Mon dae or Moon day, the day after Sunday or Sun day. Monday, often is seen as a day of depression, anxiety, hysteria, or melancholy And the bastard name “Waters” maybe hinting at with the figurative description of the Other’s armor with its patterns of moonlight on water.

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“Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.”

Continued side note: The name “Corbray” seems like a bit of wordplay for bray Cor or breaker. Here it’s Waymar’s sword that breaks.

In the prologue chapter, Martin objectifies or  dehumanizes all his characters. They are chremamorphisms. I mean they are figuratively their swords. Awhile back I had this thought about the figurative Blackfyre blade when it touched Waymar’s black steel blade. The blades touched, the steel shattered. I think they both shatter. There was rain and needles…water and steel, like Ice and Fire.

Waymar’s sword shivers into a hundred brittle pieces, and the shards scatter like a rain of needles when the two blades touch. One of the shards from Waymar’s sword ends up  transfixed into the blind white pupil of his left eye.

 

The phrase “like a rain of needles”, a simile, directly compares the scattering shards to a rain of needles.

 

One of the shards, figuratively one of the needles from Waymar’s sword transfixed in Waymar’s eye, is a figurative needle in the eye. Ouch!

 

There’s a saying that, at a time when a truth is being questioned, one might be asked to say. It’s to ensure he/she is telling the truth, “Cross your heart, hope to die, stick a needle in your eye?”

 

Sticking a needle in the eye of a corpse was once a custom to make sure that someone wasn’t still alive before they were buried.

 

I think it’s then reasonable to assume that because Ser Waymar Royce took a figurative needle in the eye to ensure that he was dead is because he lied or broke his vow or went back on his promise or word. From this I looked for a crossing of his heart moment. I started by thinking of the swords crossing.

 

Crossing seems to be a motif Martin is using. For example, fingers can be crossed. In the Prologue, Gared, like a broken or missing sword, is missing a little finger of his left hand. The trees branches, like the swords dueling , seem to be crossing their fingers also,

 

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“branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers” Prologue, AGOT

 

And Martin oddly mentions Waymar’s bloody fingers. Waymar’s fingers are soaked in red, blood, like fire while Will’s fingers are cold, numb and nerveless.

 

Waymar also seems to have a cross to bear, such as the words of House Royce, “We remember”.

 

And a skull and crossbones are a sigil of pirates or raiders. They are a symbol of poison and death. Raiders were what Waymar and company set out to find.

 

Swords, words apparently have a close relationship. A Knight will swear an oath on a sword or give their word. Men of the Night’s Watch take their vows in front of a heart tree. Oathbreakers, like deserters, and rangers who fail in their duties, to call out, face death by the sword. And notice too how the literal terms have a close similarity….swords word, word sword. The Houses have swords and words. It’s said that the pen(a word crafting tool) is mightier than the sword.

 

The point I’m making is swords crossing might make sense in the scene as a broken promise. And I also pointed to Waymar as a figurative “Prince that was promised”. He’s both a Sworn sword or Promised brother of the Night’s Watch and a Son(Sun) or Prince of the Bronze Yohn. There’s a real dichotomy to the scene.

 

What sword is Waymar figuratively wielding. I believed it to be a “cross your heart” sword.

 

In the quote at the beginning of this post Waymar’s “parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm”, where his heart would be.

 

Lady Forlorn is said to have a heart-shaped ruby in its’ pommel. It currently belongs to House Corbray whose coat-of-arms, similar to this prologue with three blackbirds, is three black ravens in flight, holding three red hearts, on a white field (Argent, three ravens volant sable, each clutching in their claws a heart gules). The three red hearts would parallel the sapphires in Waymar’s sword hilt nicely. Waymar’s hilt is believed by the fandom and myself to be the same hilt found   by a member of the free folk and turned in at the Wall.

 

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“One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.”  A Jon XII chapter 58 ADWD

 

This is the chapter that begins with Jon dreaming,

 

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“That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat.”

 

Sapphires and rubies scientifically are the same corundum minerals. The only difference between sapphires and ruby in color.

 

The seat of House Corbray is Heart’s Home where Sansa Stark using the name Alayne Stone stops while traveling with Lord Petyr Baelish and Lady Lysa Arryn from the Fingers to the Eyrie. Sansa with the bastard name Stone and a dead mother named Stone heart. Catelyn would definitely fit the description of a forlorn lady. She’s: desolate or dreary; unhappy or miserable, as in feeling, condition, or appearance., lonely and sad; forsaken, expressive of hopelessness; despairing, bereft; destitute

 

Is this figuratively Blackfyre vs. Lady Forlorn in the Prologue.

 

Between both swords landing their mark becoming covered in frost and blood and the shattering we get this,

 

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“The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.”

 

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Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.”

 

Throughout the whole Prologue we can identify many palindromes. A palindrome can be a word, sentence that’s read the same way backwards and forwards and in some cases, like mom, upside down and right side up. It’s a mirror word. The Other, who is mirroring Waymar (recall Waymar’s voice also cracking), is mimicking his words with his mocking. Except, it’s in the form of a palindrome. I think Martin sometimes enjoys entertaining himself with the constraints of palindromes. But this is why “Will did not know”.

 

In Other words, while mocking Waymar after Waymar says, “For Robert” the Other says “treboR roF”.

 

Trebor Jordayne is Lord of the Tor and head of House Jordayne in Dorne.

The fandom has noted that Trebor Jordayne is a homage by George R. R. Martin to author Robert Jordan, who was one of Martin's friends. "Trebor" is "Robert" backwards, "Jordayne" is similar to "Jordan", and "Tor" is Jordan's publisher. Harriet McDougal Jordan’s spouse also was closely related to Tor. She, a forlorn lady, would personify the sword. Lady Forlorn or “For” “lorn”  lorn - forsaken, desolate, bereft, or lost, ruined, or undone 

The “roF” in “treboR roF” may have several layers of meaning. “roF” I think is likely a acronym for Ring of Fire. This would make sense since Waymar’s blood welled between the rings. Waymar’s blood, like fire, would create rings of fire. This would bring together Waymar’s words (“For Robert”) and sword (Lady Forlorn) as a relationship between Robert Jordan and his spouse.

There’s also a geological phenomenon called the “ring of fire” where many volcanic eruptions and earthquakes occur. But I haven’t given much thought to that yet.

Last thought, If Daemon Blackfyre  (moon day) + (Targaryen bastard) and Gwayne Corbray (breaker + ?). Than what is ?

Edited by Nadden
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On 4/26/2022 at 4:36 PM, Evolett said:

Perhaps one last thought to this wandering / travelling theme regarding Ser Waymar. Like @Nadden above I've been thinking of Waymar in terms of way mar, ruining the path or going the wrong way perhaps. I like the idea of the "watches" above but have a different take on Waymar's position in death, related to his going the wrong way - his position could be meant to depict a compass. He circles with his sword in hand, more likely stretched out in front of him also reminiscent of a compass needle moving in accordance with his turning:

He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand.

The chapter begins with the words "We should start back" and there are many references to direction, also to Will's skill as a tracker which involves following clues to a particular object or destination. Perhaps the Others are like E.T. All they want is to go home :D.

Waymar is probably an anagram of Ramsay as well, not a full one but almost, w replacing the s in Ramsay. I wasn't sure of this until I discovered that Ramsay also owned a sable cloak early in the story. There's more wordplay surrounding Waymar though - but enough for now. 

Love the compass idea.

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”Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.” Prologue, AGOT

Snarling iron is a metallurgy technique.

A snarl is a metal worker's tool used to drive the walls of metal vessels.

A snarler... is a worker.

I think this may go with the runes on a clock or compass. Later in the chapter we find Waymar’s face ,

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”His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye.” Prologue, AGOT

Tatters emboss skin and a snarler(Waymar) emboss metal. Clocks and compasses have runes on the faces and Waymar’s face is a ruin.

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“Will threaded their way through a thicket, then started up the slope to the low ridge where he had found his vantage point under a sentinel tree. Under the thin crust of snow, the ground was damp and muddy, slick footing, with rocks and hidden roots to trip you up. Will made no sound as he climbed. Behind him, he heard the soft metallic slither of the lordling’s ringmail, the rustle of leaves, and muttered curses as reaching branches grabbed at his longsword and tugged on his splendid sable cloak.”

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Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers.”

Branches like fingers(of the Old Gods) grabbing out at a needle and cloth or a cloak and longsword (metaphor for Waymar). Waymar is a chememorphism for his sword. So Waymar threads, with the sound of a soft metallic slither, through a thicket.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/28/2022 at 10:51 PM, Seams said:

Perhaps we need a new thread to sort out all of the paired swords.

I realize I encouraged a lot of this discussion and analysis of swords, but it seems to have evolved way beyond puns and wordplay. I have tried to keep this thread more focused on the author's use of wordplay and not on similes and metaphors, which are a different kind of literary tool. I do see some word analysis in these recent posts, but not focused enough that it needs to be in this thread. 

Feel free to link to these posts but please start a new thread to discuss this new idea about Ser Waymar and his symbolism.

Edited by Seams
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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Damphair / damn fair / dam heir / mad heir

bury / berry / barrier

Kingsmoot / king's tomb

@Evolett has a good thread going on the future of Theon. This inspired me to trot out my old theory of Theon as the personification of the sword Ice. I'm sure many people here are also tired of hearing the theory that the sword "Ice" may be one half of an earlier sword called "Justice." 

In the linked thread about Theon, I also noted that there seems to be a Theon / Jaime duality, with Jaime pushing Bran out of a window (and mini-Jaime, aka Joffrey, dissecting a pregnant cat, killing its babies and horrifying King Robert) while Theon is responsible for saving Bran in the woods when he is threatened by a Night's Watch deserter. (And I list a few other places where Theon is a protector of the Stark children.) 

Yet another convoluted literary analysis:

If Theon = Ice and Ice used to be Justice, how can Theon be "made whole" again and restored as Justice?

It occurred to me that the ritual performed by his uncle Aeron might be the answer. 

Aeron's nickname is Damphair because his hair is always wet because he is always in and around the sea. 

But wordplay on "Damphair" could be "damn fair" - is this a synonym for "just"

And this led me to finally understand why Maester Cerrick in the novella The Sworn Sword is Ironborn, a very unlikely profession for a man from the Iron Islands. The conflict between House Osgrey and House Webber at the center of The Sworn Sword is represent by a dam but there is also a dead Osgrey heir name Addam, who was beloved by Rohanne Webber, the woman who controls the dam. The dam was ordered built by Maester Cerrick using wood from Osgrey land but benefiting the "web" of canals of House Webber as well as her moat ( = a mother). 

In the previous novella, the Hedge Knight, the action takes place at Ashford Meadow, which might be an anagram of "mad foreshadow" or "dam foreshadow." If GRRM was alluding to the upcoming symbolism of the dam, then wordplay on "dam heir" could be part of this triple wordplay. 

I believe the tourney in The Hedge Knight is an extended allegory for the Targaryen succession. Because GRRM has given us a lot of background about the madness that runs through the Targaryen family, he could be telling us about the "mad heirs" who succeed to the Iron Throne from time to time. 

But wait, there's more!

Long ago, we worked out in this thread that wolf / fowl and flow are part of a wordplay group, with tentacles reaching into flower and flour (and maybe foul, although I don't think we've written about that in this discussion). 

So the "dam" symbolism and the "flow" symbolism would be opposites. The double wall keeps people from breaking into Winterfell except Theon who is able to flow over the walls like seawater in Bran's green dream. 

Dams are part of the wall (and other barrier) symbolism in ASOIAF; things that flow (rivers, water in general, hair, sewers) are stopped by dams. Remember Tyrion clearing the sewers at Casterly Rock? Some people die when they are pushed into wells but Samwell Tarley leads Bran and his companions into a well that crosses under the Wall. Lots of little details may start to make sense if we see them in terms of dams and flows. 

In The Sworn Sword, the late Addam Osgrey is buried in a berry patch (along with his brothers). This seems like clear wordplay on bury / berry and barrier (now that the "dam" wordplay is becoming clearer). Even though the "dam" (heir named Addam) is dead and buried, his father goes down to the berry patch to talk to his boys and pour out a symbolic measure of wine on the graves to toast the king. As the story progresses, Ser Eustace tells Dunk that he would have liked a man like Dunk to marry his daughter. Egg makes a point of emphasizing that the daughter is dead. I think the symbolism here is that Dunk becomes one of the dead Osgrey sons. Ser Eustace even gives him an Osgrey cloak, symbolizing a wedding. So his resurrection represents the rebirth of the Osgrey sons or heirs - the dam heirs

And all of this intricate symbolism may help to explain why Theon is a key who can lock or unlock barriers. Similarly, Ironborn Maester Cerrick can order the building of a dam but he can also resurrect Ser Duncan the Tall who seemed to die during his single combat with Ser Lucas Longinch (who seems to be a symbolic Night's Watch brother, guarding a Wall). Similarly, Aeron Damphair can cause men to drown but then revive them.

In addition to being swords and keys and dam makers, maybe the Ironborn are the ravens (fowls?). Catelyn tells us that, in the faith of the seven, ravens can fly back and forth through the door between life and death. Transcending barriers. 

Oh and the kingsmoot / king's tomb symbolism also relates to Theon because I think Aeron bypassed the kingsmoot by performing a drowning / crowning ritual that made Theon the heir of Balon and the next king of the Iron Islands. Symbolically, Theon is also forged again as the sword Ice when he goes into the Winterfell crypt (tomb) with Lady Dustin. Tobho Mott (Hot tomb) also represents a tomb / maker of king's swords. 

Edited by Seams
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Dampfer / mute 

Just one more layer of meaning to add to the post, above: the German word for "mute" is "Dampfer". 

We have a mute King's Justice as well as Theon's mute squire, Wex Pyke. I think these are more clues to solving the "Just + Ice" symbolism, and linking it back to Theon, Aeron and the Drowned God. (Oh yeah, I also mentioned in that linked Theon thread that maybe "drowned" = "Ned word". So another words / sword / ward clue that underscores Theon as a symbolic sword for Ned.)

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On 6/26/2022 at 5:10 PM, Seams said:

Long ago, we worked out in this thread that wolf / fowl and flow are part of a wordplay group, with tentacles reaching into flower and flour (and maybe foul, although I don't think we've written about that in this discussion). 

So the "dam" symbolism and the "flow" symbolism would be opposites. The double wall keeps people from breaking into Winterfell except Theon who is able to flow over the walls like seawater in Bran's green dream. 

Dams are part of the wall (and other barrier) symbolism in ASOIAF; things that flow (rivers, water in general, hair, sewers) are stopped by dams

A number of other not so obvious dams popped up in my mind after reading this. Walder Frey's bridge for instance. It's made for crossing a river but is also functions as a "dam" at which people must stop and pay a toll before they can continue their journey. The analogy is demonstrated by Robb and his army. Unlike Theon who easily "flows" over the walls of Winterfell, the "wolf" army must pay a toll to "flow" across the Frey "dam." The army moves across like a serpent:

Quote

The double column wound its way through the gate of the eastern twin like a great steel snake, slithering across the courtyard, into the keep and over the bridge ...

The slithering movement of a serpent is much like the windings of a flowing river, so even though neither dams nor flows are mentioned we can see relationship between the bridge and the snake. A wolf must pay a price to be able to flow. 

The Arm of Dorne, a land bridge, was basically a dam separating the Narrow Sea from the Summer Sea, the brigde destroyed by the force of flowing waters or the Hammer of the Waters. Tristifer Mudd, The Hammer of Justice tried to stem the "Andal tide

Quote

The Hammer of Justice was succeeded by his son, Tristifer V, or Tristifer the Last, who proved unable to stem the Andal tide and failed even to hold his own people together. 

In the first instance the "hammer" is a water hammer. Tristifer on the other hand is a "dam" (is Mudd / dum a variation on "dam"?) stemming a "tide." Mud is not an ideal material for a dam. Are we to compare "Eustace," whose trees provided material for a solid dam with the ineffectual mud hammer of Justice? Sounds similar and "eustace" as a boy's given name means "steadfast," also "fruitful, productive." Is "just" (as in "only") ice not effective as a dam? Or Ned who carries out the King's Justice not effective enough in bringing about justice (he isn't, in the case of Cersei's children, he chooses Sansa over his honor and "justice").

 

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Evolett raised some really interesting ideas but my response took us even further away from puns and wordplay so I moved the discussion to another thread. Click on the underlined words to be linked to continued discussion of the symbolism of bridges / dams as two sides of the same coin. 

But I had another thought on the Damphair set of puns: damp fur. I have mentioned before that I think First Ranger and Fur Stranger comprise an undeclared pun. If the ambiguous "ph" in the nickname Damphair creates a parallel to the German word "Dampfer," might it also allow damp fur as an additional linked meaning? 

Hmm. Maybe not, though. I just searched on "damp fur" and the author never uses that exact combination. The closest he comes is this:

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They were all damp. Another man, still wetter, stood before the fire in a pale pink cloak trimmed with white fur. "Lord Bolton," she said.

(ASoS, Catelyn VI)

When he arrives at The Twins for the Red Wedding, is Roose Bolton the equivalent of Aeron Greyjoy?

There are a couple places where wet fur is mentioned (two, notably, when Bran and Arya are warging their wolves). 

I guess we'll have to see whether there is more damp fur in the remaining books. 

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Fertilizer / fertile Lysa

I know I should get a life, but this one just came to me. Jon Arryn said that the seed is strong, but seeds are useless unless they land on fertile soil. 

So clever, that GRRM. 

We know that Jaime Lannister was once betrothed to Lysa Tully. One strong motif associated with Jaime is the "shit for honor" symbolism - a privy built on the place where he knelt to join the kingsguard; a bucket of waste tipped over in his dungeon cell at Riverrun. Tywin, too, is associated with stench and the "he shits gold" joke. 

There was a thread a few years ago wondering whether the "moon door" at the Eyrie alluded to the traditional crescent moon opening in the door of an outhouse. It makes sense that Littlefinger would push Lysa out of a moon door if she represents manure fertilizer. 

 

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Damphair / Dampfer / mute

On 6/26/2022 at 5:27 PM, Seams said:

Dampfer / mute 

Just one more layer of meaning to add to the post, above: the German word for "mute" is "Dampfer". 

We have a mute King's Justice as well as Theon's mute squire, Wex Pyke. I think these are more clues to solving the "Just + Ice" symbolism, and linking it back to Theon, Aeron and the Drowned God.

I'll offer a correction here:

– the German word for “mute” is “stumm.” A person who is mute (silent, dumb, not able to speak)
is “der/die Stumme.”

“Dämpfer” has more of a sense “to muffle” or to tone down – note it’s written with “ä” (ae), as in Stoßdämpfer (shockabsorber)

Dampf means steam. Dampfer (noun) means “steamer” (pot) or the colloquial word for locomotive,”

Dampfen  (verb) – to steam.

So Damphair with the ph/f sound could relate to Dampf as in steam. "Steamed" hair would be damp. Water undergoes a transformation to become steam. Maybe this relates to Aeron's personal transformation to a priest of the Drowned God and to his ability to bring about an important transformation in the future. 
 I also found the partial anagram "dharma" within "Damphair." Could be coincidence but it does very much describe Aeron (Dharma is the moral law combined with spiritual discipline that guides one's life and encompasses duties, rights, laws, virtues, conduct and the right way of living). 

 

20 hours ago, Seams said:

Fertilizer / fertile Lysa

I know I should get a life, but this one just came to me. Jon Arryn said that the seed is strong, but seeds are useless unless they land on fertile soil. 

Great! This one is spot on, especially since Lysa was married off to Jon Arryn because she had already proven she was fertile. 

 

Dates / dates

I found this one the other day:

Quote

She looked away from him, and feigned an unconvincing interest in Moon Boy pelting Ser Dontos with dates.

Seeing as GRRM's world suffers from asynchronous seasons, isn't it interesting that Moon Boy pelts Ser Dontos with dates? Hehe.. Lovely double meaning here. This takes place during Joff's and Margery's wedding feast.

 Westeros marks time via a lunar calendar, evident in phrases such as "a moon's turn" or Robert's long summer that lasted 10 years, 2 "turns" and 16 days. I would interprate this in terms of the moon "giving" the growing season (fruit, dates) more time (dates).

And at the feast after Dany's horse heart eating ceremony and proclamation of "the stallion that mounts the world" we have this:

Quote

 .... platters piled high with plums and dates and pomegranates

Given the plum/lump/pregnancy and pomegranate associations with fertility, this platter, or perhaps the entire ceremony might represent another generator of extra "dates."  Hidden in "pomegranate" are our trio - garnet, argent and garten. Dany is the "moon" reference here. 

In another example, Pycelle offers Ned refreshments:

Quote

Would you care for refreshments? Some dates, perhaps? I have some very fine persimmons as well.

In folklore, persimmon seeds are used to predict the type of winter (severity, snowfall etc.) for the coming year. There's such a thing as the "Persimmon Seed Almanac." "Promises" is within "persimmons" and "promises" do relate to Ned. But "promises" are also debt writs, to be paid another day in the future. Ned is being offered more time, borrowed time, in this case to postpone winter most like. 

 

smiler / millers

This relates to Theon of course, the "smiler" who killed the miller's sons. Is a smiler also a miller's son or do they oppose each other? Given that a miller produces flour and flour can be a ghost or soul, Theon, the ghost in Winterfell is probably also a "miller's son" / smiler. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Evolett said:

smiler / millers

This relates to Theon of course, the "smiler" who killed the miller's sons. Is a smiler also a miller's son or do they oppose each other? Given that a miller produces flour and flour can be a ghost or soul, Theon, the ghost in Winterfell is probably also a "miller's son" / smiler. 

I absolutely LOVE this. Theon may not be the child of a miller, but Ramsay is the son of a miller's wife:

Quote
I was hunting a fox along the Weeping Water when I chanced upon a mill and saw a young woman washing clothes in the stream. The old miller had gotten himself a new young wife, a girl not half his age. She was a tall, willowy creature, very healthy-looking. Long legs and small firm breasts, like two ripe plums. Pretty, in a common sort of way. The moment that I set eyes on her I wanted her. Such was my due. The maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger. The Umbers keep the first night too, deny it as they may. Certain of the mountain clans as well, and on Skagos … well, only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos.
"This miller's marriage had been performed without my leave or knowledge. The man had cheated me. So I had him hanged, and claimed my rights beneath the tree where he was swaying. If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope. The fox escaped as well, and on our way back to the Dreadfort my favorite courser came up lame, so all in all it was a dismal day.
(ADwD, Reek III)

I had been thinking a smiler and slayer were opposites, but maybe it's a smiler and a miller we should examine.

12 minutes ago, Evolett said:

“Dämpfer” has more of a sense “to muffle” or to tone down

Aha. I saw a number of meanings associated with the root word and the word itself - I guess I was cherry-picking and not doing it precisely. In a piano, I think a "damper" is the piece that keeps a note from sounding too loudly. 

But "Stumm" is interesting, too. I think I looked at "Stamm" when examining masts and the stumps and roots (Unsullied are cut "root and stem"). I know a Stammtisch is a big table, which might allude to the important feasts we see from time to time in ASOIAF. When animals eat acorns, they are called mast. I wonder whether Stumm is somehow linked? Maybe part of the dog / hound set of symbols, making a reference to a mutt?

20 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Dates / dates

This has a lot of possibilities. I think there is a large and mostly unexplored system of time in ASOIAF - the Night's "Watch" is part of it, maybe the "Second" Sons, and House Hightower acting as a giant sundial that casts a shadow to tell the time. Probably Timmet son of Timmet is involved. 

Maybe dates are part of the set of timekeeping or time-passing words. 

Quote

Hizdahr had stocked their box with flagons of chilled wine and sweetwater, with figs, dates, melons, and pomegranates, with pecans and peppers and a big bowl of honeyed locusts. Strong Belwas bellowed, "Locusts!" as he seized the bowl and began to crunch them by the handful.

(ADwD, Daenerys IX)

Context can be crucial in pinning down wordplay clues. Interesting that dates are among the items provided by Hizdahr with the (apparently) poisoned locusts. 

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Coppice- an area of woodland in which the trees are, or formerly were, periodically cut back to ground level to stimulate growth and provide firewood or timber. 
 

I mentioned before that Gared, who’s name is not mentioned in Bran 1, AGOT, is a figurative drag half (derag is Gared spelled backwards) of a sand and oil cast mold for “Ice”(metallurgy). A cope is the top half. Cope or similarly Copp combines with “Ice” in Gared’s beheading scene. Coppice(Ironwood stump), as defined above, combines “Ice” and copp( like cope).
 

Gared’s head was forced down onto the hard black wood. Bran’s father, Lord Stark, took off the Gared’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine.
 

1375–1425; late Middle English copies<Middle French copeis,Old French copeiz<Vulgar Latin *colpātīcium cutover area, equivalent to *colpāt(us) past participle of *colpāre to cut (see coup 1) + -īcium-ice.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 8/31/2019 at 11:18 PM, Seams said:

Treason / Tree son

I don't know why this never occurred to me before. Ned is found guilty of treason. Ned has a tree son.

Maybe.

I had a related thought: maybe Theon is Ned's "sea son". We have a central motif around seasons. Ned has a sea son.

Edit: To see if there were other "sons" I hadn't recognized, I went to a website that provides all rhyming words for whatever word you plug in. I typed in "treason" and one of the possibilities identified was "Jack Gleeson." I know that GRRM is really deep with his rhyming wordplay, but I don't think even he anticipated that actor would be cast in the tv adaptation. On the other hand . . . .

Edited by Seams
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1 hour ago, Seams said:

I had a related thought: maybe Theon is Ned's "sea son". We have a central motif around seasons. Ned has a sea son.

That's clever. Maybe Theon represents a particular season. A Prince of Winter. According to Osha, winter has no king, but perhaps winter has a prince.

I was playing around with Illyrio Mopatis and came up with "imposta" or "imposter". Illyrio may be a play on "lyrics" or "lyrical." Since an imposter is someone who pretends to be someone else, a lyrical imposter may be one who mimics the songs of others. This would match his association with the "mummer's dragon," mummers being "imposters" when they adopt roles in a play. 

Considering Arya's extreme association with death and by extension to infertility, I think when Arya sells clams, she sells her claim to fertility. And when Septon Meribald exchanges the marsh women's clams for oranges, he gives them back their claim to fertility. Interesting that "marshwomen" yields "horseman," "merman" and "merwoman," all relevant to Arya as a good horsewoman and seller of seafood / life in Braavos. 

Edited by Evolett
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