Puns and Wordplay

[Evolett]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:05 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Then I found this on wikipedia, nice and revolting  :

A Hand of Glory is the dried and pickled hand of a hanged man, often specified as being the left (Latin: sinister) hand, or, if the person was hanged for murder, the hand that "did the deed."

Old European beliefs attribute great powers to a Hand of Glory combined with a candle made from fat from the corpse of the same malefactor who died on the gallows. The candle so made, lighted, and placed (as if in a candlestick) in the Hand of Glory would have rendered motionless all persons to whom it was presented. The process for preparing the hand and the candle are described in 18th-century documents, with certain steps disputed due to difficulty in properly translating phrases from that era. 

Yes, I discovered this too while searching for information on severed hands recently, and thought hmm.
I wonder if this "Hand of Glory" can be related to Jamie. His right hand "did the deed" when he killed Aerys and years later this hand is chopped off by Vargo Hoat. In the context of the "Hand of Glory", this kind of puts Vargo in the role of the Mad King's "avenger," especially since Aerys himself famously "chopped off several Hands" later in his reign. Jamie was forced to carry his rotting hand round his neck until reaching Harrenhal, where Roose tore it off. 

In Jamie's eyes, killing Aerys was his finest act, the latter very relatable to glory. His most glorious act, carried out by his sword hand, the Hand of Glory (can't resist the tempatation to line this up ). One of his horses is named Glory, though he usually rides Honor. And he's on his way to Lady Stoneheart whose prefered method of execution is hanging. I like the connection between left and sinister as well. Jamie's now learning to sword fight with his left hand and his teacher is the rather sinister Ilyn Payne, dispenser of Justice. Interesting, all in all. I can see a relevant connection but at the moment can't quite fathom where the "Hand of Glory" may lead us. 

 

On 2/8/2023 at 6:53 PM, Seams said:

I wondered whether there is a deliberate emphasis on the word "turn" in each tourney. This fits with the idea that GRRM uses tourneys as major turning points in the story: Dunk and Egg at Ashford Meadow and at Whitewalls, Rhaegar and Aerys (and Lyanna) at Harrenhal, Renly and Loras and Brienne at Bitter Bridge, Ned and The Hound (and many others) at the Hand's Tourney. We can see the foreshadowing of who will be defeated and who will take away a prize in each match or in the overall contest - some people literally fall from power while others gain in social status due to surprise victories - Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan, Brienne, Glendon Flowers.

I've been chewing on "tourney" and a possible association to "turn" too but have not been able to come up with anything useful to add to your interpretation of tourneys as major turning points or how that might relate to the concept of time specifically, only loose thoughts and observations that are difficult to verify. 

One thing I've thought for a while is that tourney winners, Queens of Love and Beauty and Mystery Knights all represent people of special magical ability. Finding evidence for this is difficult but it might be a thing. Queens of Love and Beauty may be associated with a change in season. When one is chosen and crowned, her season follows shortly, like the Winter that returned in force after Lyanna was crowned. The song - Seasons of my Love - may be hinting at this. Rhaegar being noted as "the Last Dragon" and winning the tourney, could be telling us that he definitely had the blood of the dragon and would have been a dragonrider had a dragon been available to him. Perhaps he was the first in the line of legitimate Targs after the Dance who possessed all magical traits necessary to the "blood of the dragon."  

Mystery Knights could indicate that a new greenseer will rise. I very much associate greenseers with mystery knights - the "knights of the mind" hidden away within a weirwood. The Knight of the Laughing Tree is the most obvious of the mystery knights in this interpretation, perhaps heralding the advent of Bran as a greenseer. Bran himself badly wanted to be a knight and becomes a temporary "knight" when he takes over Hodor's body. But first and foremost he is a "knight of the tree." Also, if I recall correctly, the Winterfell weirwood is the only "laughing weirwood" in the narrative. The carved face that later speakes to Theon with Bran's voice "laughs" during Ramsay's and Jeyne's wedding ceremony:

Quote

The weirwood’s carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

 Attention is drawn to a quorking raven in the branches. 

19 years pass between the tourney at Harrenhal and Bran becoming a greenseer. This could be related to a "moon's turn." Not in terms of a month but in terms of another important cycle of the moon, also a "turn," one that takes 19 years to complete - the Metonic Cycle. The number nineteen is quite prominent in the story as are very frequent mentions of the moon's cycles in Bran's chapters beyond the Wall. It's a recurring theme reminding me of a countdown. Perhaps a countdown to the completion of the 19 year moon cycle. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Evolett

[Phylum of Alexandria]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:05 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Then I found this on wikipedia, nice and revolting  :

A Hand of Glory is the dried and pickled hand of a hanged man, often specified as being the left (Latin: sinister) hand, or, if the person was hanged for murder, the hand that "did the deed."

Old European beliefs attribute great powers to a Hand of Glory combined with a candle made from fat from the corpse of the same malefactor who died on the gallows. The candle so made, lighted, and placed (as if in a candlestick) in the Hand of Glory would have rendered motionless all persons to whom it was presented. The process for preparing the hand and the candle are described in 18th-century documents, with certain steps disputed due to difficulty in properly translating phrases from that era. 

Probably not related to ASOIAF, but I had understood the term "hand of glory" to refer to Belladonna, or deadly night shade. 

Then I found this on the Wikipedia page for the morbid pickled variety of Hand of Glory:

"Etymologist Walter Skeat reports that, while folklore has long attributed mystical powers to a dead man's hand, the specific phrase Hand of Glory is in fact a folk etymology: it derives from the French main de gloire, a corruption of mandragore, which is to say mandrake. Skeat writes, "The identification of the hand of glory with the mandrake is clinched by the statement in Cockayne's Leechdoms, i. 245, that the mandrake "shineth by night altogether like a lamp"".

Given that the mandragore is a close relative to deadly night shade, perhaps that's why the latter took on the name as well?

 

[sweetsunray]

Hostage - Ward - Warden - Shield - Wall

Blood seal - blood signature of contract - writing letters with blood - breaking a seal - paper shield

• A hostage is also euphemistically called a ward
• The magical invisible wall is a ward, same at Bloodraven's cave
• Starks are the wardens of the North and therefore the Wall since Brandon the Builder
• Jon's hostages from the Free Folk: Tormund calls it Jon's blood price
• Sending the ward Theon away to the Iron Islands with a letter, and Robb loses Winterfell, the North and is betrayed

 

• Jon signs and sends a paper shield
• Mormont's raven reads the paper shield from Jon's shoulder, before pecking through Sam's skin of his palm, making him bleed, then later cries blood after Jon claims there's no power in king's blood, mance's blood, his blood, brigand's blood.
• Beric makes his sword light up with fire after cutting his palm onto the blade and letting the blood run on the steel: works
• Brandon of the Bloody Blade
• Mel: burns a brigand to make a fake magic sword shine like the sun (correct ingredients, but wrong application and mixture)
• a seal = signature
• blood signature = bloodline
• Ramsay writes letters in blood => Pink Letter
• Stannis signs contract with Iron Bank with his blood

[LongRider]

11 hours ago, Evolett said:

I can see a relevant connection but at the moment can't quite fathom where the "Hand of Glory" may lead us. 

 

46 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Beric makes his sword light up with fire after cutting his palm onto the blade and letting the blood run on the steel: works

Quote

Unsmiling, Lord Beric laid the edge of his longsword against the palm of his left hand and drew it slowly down. Blood ran dark from the gash he made, and washed over the steel.
And then the sword took fire.      SoS  Arya VI

Beric's left hand seems to have some magic in it, A Hand of Glory? The blood from the sinister left hand lit up the sword with flames.

[Evolett]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Hostage - Ward - Warden - Shield - Wall

Blood seal - blood signature of contract - writing letters with blood - breaking a seal - paper shield

Reading this reminded me of Euron using a seal to represent Asha when he married her off to Erik Ironmaker. Wordplay on "seal," the animal and to "seal" as in close off, make secure?  It's interesting that Theon is a ward and Asha a seal. I'm pretty sure all wards finally fell when Theon the ward escaped from Winterfell. What could Asha being a "seal" mean? What's she sealing? My guess ins Erik Ironmaker is a clue. It's implied he's named Ironmaker because he uses his massive warhammer to smash the hands of thieves, alluding to the forging of iron against an anvil. In relation to Winterfell, if Erik is the Ironmaker, Asha could be the "Iron," the "iron seal" that keeps spirits locked up (seeing as so many iron swords are missing from the graves in the crypts) or that she is key to preventing malevolent supernatural activity. 

Erik's other alias is Erik Anvil-Breaker. Some relevant anagrams of Anvil-Breaker are "ravenlike," "bearlike" and "valerian."

[Seams]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

• A hostage is also euphemistically called a ward
• The magical invisible wall is a ward, same at Bloodraven's cave
• Starks are the wardens of the North and therefore the Wall since Brandon the Builder
• Jon's hostages from the Free Folk: Tormund calls it Jon's blood price
• Sending the ward Theon away to the Iron Islands with a letter, and Robb loses Winterfell, the North and is betrayed

We learn that Ned's ward, Theon, is leaving Robb in ACoK, Catelyn I:

Quote

"Then go with Theon. He leaves on the morrow. He'll help the Mallisters escort that lot of captives to Seagard and then take ship for the Iron Islands. You could find a ship as well, and be back at Winterfell with a moon's turn, if the winds are kind. Bran and Rickon need you."

But Catelyn has substituted two wards of her own before Ned's ward is released:

Quote

"If you can spare a few of your swords, I need some men to escort two of Lord Frey's grandsons north to Winterfell," she told him. "I have agreed to take them as wards. They are young boys, aged eight years and seven. It would seem they are both named Walder. Your brother Bran will welcome the companionship of lads near his own age, I should think."

AGoT, Catelyn IX

John has turned into a ward - a STEWard - in AGoT, Jon VI:

Quote

"Grenn, to the rangers. Albett, to the builders. Pypar, to the rangers," Pyp looked over at Jon and wiggled his ears. "Samwell, to the stewards," Sam sagged with relief, mopping at his brow with a scrap of silk. "Matthar, to the rangers. Dareon, to the stewards. Todder, to the rangers. Jon, to the stewards."

The stewards! For a moment Jon could not believe what he had heard. Mormont must have read it wrong. He started to rise, to open his mouth, to tell them there had been a mistake … and then he saw Ser Alliser studying him, eyes shiny as two flakes of obsidian, and he knew.

Ned's sword is taken away and Arya is suddenly caught in a "wolf trap," perhaps lending credence to the idea of wards and swords as protection:

Quote

Ser Ilyn drew a two-handed greatsword from the scabbard on his back. As he lifted the blade above his head, sunlight seemed to ripple and dance down the dark metal, glinting off an edge sharper than any razor. Ice, she thought, he has Ice! Her tears streamed down her face, blinding her.

And then a hand shot out of the press and closed round her arm like a wolf trap, so hard that Needle went flying from her hand. Arya was wrenched off her feet. She would have fallen if he hadn't held her up, as easy as if she were a doll. A face pressed close to hers, long black hair and tangled beard and rotten teeth. "Don't look!" a thick voice snarled at her.

AGoT, Arya V

Of course, the wolf trap hand belongs to Yoren, a member of the Night's Watch.

I definitely think there's something going on with wards and swords serving as protective seals or shields. When we pin down the timing and the details, it looks as if there are two wards at Winterfell before Theon is released by Robb. The new wards are young Freys, however, and are Catelyn's wards, not Ned's ward. 

[Evolett]

21 minutes ago, Seams said:

I definitely think there's something going on with wards and swords serving as protective seals or shields. When we pin down the timing and the details, it looks as if there are two wards at Winterfell before Theon is released by Robb.

This is my thinking too. My first thought was Jeyne Poole in addition to Theon. Jeyne is treated much like a sister to the Stark children. She enjoys the same education under Septa Mordane and is even allowed to be present when Princess Myrcella joins the girls for a lesson in sewing. Her treatment mirrors Theon's. She's also Sansa's best friend of course and joins her at King's Landing for important occasions. Cersei then has her separated from Sansa after Ned's fall. Later I remembered she's Vayon Poole's daughter, Winterfell's steward, who also joins Ned in the capital to look after his household. 

Jeyne being a ward may be a reason why the heart tree "laughs" during her wedding to Ramsay. Theon was the symbolic original ward that returned to Winterfell as a guard against Ramsay, the "big bad" who was already in the castle. It then makes sense for Jeyne to be married to Ramsay to uphold the "ward" and for Theon to take on Ned's role in giving her away. 

I wonder which pool Jeyne represents - the dark black pool or the hot pools in the godswood? 

Catelyn's Frey wards seem to be counter-wards, Little Walder definitely since he became Ramsay's squire. Big Walder? I suppose this is where the beets and turnips come in

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Evolett

[Evolett]

30 minutes ago, Seams said:

Of course, the wolf trap hand belongs to Yoren

Is the wolf trap another kind of seal? Like wolves, seals (the animal) are also related to skinchanging / shape-shifting (selkies). 

[sweetsunray]

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

Reading this reminded me of Euron using a seal to represent Asha when he married her off to Erik Ironmaker. Wordplay on "seal," the animal and to "seal" as in close off, make secure?  It's interesting that Theon is a ward and Asha a seal. I'm pretty sure all wards finally fell when Theon the ward escaped from Winterfell. What could Asha being a "seal" mean? What's she sealing? My guess ins Erik Ironmaker is a clue. It's implied he's named Ironmaker because he uses his massive warhammer to smash the hands of thieves, alluding to the forging of iron against an anvil. In relation to Winterfell, if Erik is the Ironmaker, Asha could be the "Iron," the "iron seal" that keeps spirits locked up (seeing as so many iron swords are missing from the graves in the crypts) or that she is key to preventing malevolent supernatural activity. 

Erik's other alias is Erik Anvil-Breaker. Some relevant anagrams of Anvil-Breaker are "ravenlike," "bearlike" and "valerian."

The seal = signature = blood(line) and ownership.

Break the seal and the ward falls, stops protecting

Edited February 19, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sweetsunray]

18 hours ago, Seams said:

But Catelyn has substituted two wards of her own before Ned's ward is released:

The two Frey wards are protection against the Freys, not the Ironborn. The Freys and Boltons plot against the Starks when Cat's wards end up in Ramsay's hands.

[Seams]

Maybe we have stumbled onto an element of the mysterious game called come-into-my-castle. Tyrion tells us that it it a game for high-born children:

Quote

"Not cyvasse," Tyrion agreed, as the deck rose under him. That would only lead to pieces flying violently across the cabin and raining down on sow and dog. "When you were a little girl, did you ever play come-into-my-castle?"

"No. Can you teach me?"

Could he? Tyrion hesitated. Fool of a dwarf. Of course she's never played come-into-my-castle. She never had a castle. Come-into-my-castle was a game for highborn children, one meant to teach them courtesy, heraldry, and a thing or two about their lord father's friends and foes. "That won't …" he started. The deck gave another violent heave, slamming the two of them together. Penny gave a squeak of fright. "That game won't do," Tyrion told her, gritting his teeth. "Sorry. I don't know what game—"

"I do." Penny kissed him.

ADwD, Tyrion IX

 In a long-ago thread, this forum sorted out that there is a massive game of Chutes and Ladders (Snakes and Ladders) going on in the Red Keep. Maybe having the right high-born child as a ward (or a squire?) is part of the game of come-into-my-castle. At this point, only GRRM knows how the game is played, although he has given us hints. 

I'm pretty sure that Freys are door-openers. This is why Hodor, who is really named Walder, has to accompany Bran on his journey. We see Hodor opening the door of the Winterfell crypt after the fire and putting Bran and his traveling companions through the transom at the Queen's Crown when they couldn't get the door to open. I'm guessing that Lord Walder's series of wives will tell us which families have attained a sort of borrowed door-opening power by marrying into the Frey family. (His first wife was a Royce, and we see Ser Waymar Royce in the opening scene of AGoT at a moment when a long-closed door has been opened.) 

Bran sends turnips and beets to the Walder wards. I have concluded that turnips, also known as neeps, symbolize an entrance to the underworld because of the wordplay on "Pennytree = Neep Entry." Bran, perhaps with the help of Rickon and Catelyn, has empowered these particular Walder Freys to guard or control an entrance to the Underworld (probably represented by the Winterfell crypt). 

But Ned empowered Theon to be a ward / door opener. Or maybe it wasn't Ned:

Quote

Theon led the way up the stairs. I have climbed these steps a thousand times before. As a boy he would run up; descending, he would take the steps three at a time, leaping. Once he leapt right into Old Nan and knocked her to the floor. That earned him the worst thrashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beatings his brothers used to give him back on Pyke.

ADwD, Theon I

Old Nan may also be a Frey: she is Hodor's grandmother (great grandmother?) and she says "mayhaps" at least once. If she is also a door-opener, Theon may have gained some of his power when he leapt "into" her. We see him flow over the walls when he leads his Ironborn in the takeover, so maybe that is a special power that only he can wield as a former Stark ward.

Maybe there is wordplay on "door" and "ward" - or should I say "dawr"?

 

 

 

[LongRider]

13 minutes ago, Seams said:

Bran, perhaps with the help of Rickon and Catelyn, has empowered these particular Walder Freys to guard or control an entrance to the Underworld (probably represented by the Winterfell crypt). 

Bran did not want the Frey wards in the crypt’s when Rickon took them down there.  Bran told Rickon that crypts were a Stark place. 
The Freys and Rickon did play the crossings game where mayhaps was the secret word of the Freys and could get one pushed into the water.

So gaurding an entrance sounds right, might be more oriented towards water, mayhaps?

 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

So, I'm about to finish AFFC as part of my re-read and sure you're all waiting with bated breath for the next version of my Alleras and the 3 Apples analysis. Except I don't think there will be another one.

I think "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler" means exactly what it purports to, and this is probably the best thread to post what I mean.

The sphinx is 'a little bit of this, a little bit of that'. George is basically referring to his own system -the way he embeds clues and foreshadowing, etc in the books. It's emphasising the fact that there is no one way to solve all of these. George employs a menagerie of literary devices to accomplish his 'riddles'. Wordplay. Symbolism, imagery. Echoing. Sigils. The maps. Humour. Literary references. TV references (see the Riverland muppets ...). Music references. And probably more.

He's telling us to be on our toes. The text is the sphinx, and to decode it we will need to marshall all the powers at our disposal. Kind of what this community is already doing I guess, so carry on as normal guys!  

Edited February 20, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Evolett]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

He's telling us to be on our toes. The text is the sphinx, and to decode it we will need to marshall all the powers at our disposal. Kind of what this community is already doing I guess, so carry on as normal guys!  

You may be right. It feels like at least 20 sphinxes rolled into one!

[Mourning Star]

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.
"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."
"A sad tale," said Osha, "but those empty holes are sadder."

Probably already mentioned somewhere, but, I think this could be read as a cute pun, the holes in the story are sadder!

Edited February 20, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Sandy Clegg]

Was reading the first post in the ‘Dany is AA reborn’ thread and had a thought about the four glass candles (3 black, one green). 
 

Is George a Two Ronnies fan? In their classic BBC sketch they confuse four candles with ‘fork handles’. In ASOIAF terms this could translate as ‘fork Andals’. Forks = lightning symbols. So four Stormland Andals? 
 

Utter nonsense I’m sure but it’s late and I need sleep!

[sweetsunray]

On the shield = ward = protection

Rereading Brienne's aFfC chapters (1 and 2 so far) and of course Brienne's shield change caught my attention. First it has bats, then it becomes Dunk's personal arms: a green star above a tree.

Now sure, the bats are often tied to Harrenhal since the conquering, and Brienne's bat shield is of Lothston. But more and more I have grown to assoiate the bat symbol as a stand-in symbol for dragons, because they have bat like wings. And thus a bat sigil on a shield implies relying on the "protection by the dragons/Targs". This makes sense for Harrenhal: it became a twisted castle because of a Targ, and Lothston has only one bat on it, so it implies "using one Targ or dragon to protect you". But fire is a fickle thing, and so is fire made flesh, or human. The castle has been rewarded often to loyal hands or families by one Targ, only to end up being killed as traitors by either the very same king or because they end up being drawn into the in-fighting between Targs (Maegor vs Aegon, the Dance, Blackfyre vs Targ, Aerys vs Rhaegar).

A green star (which can imply a green dragon, as meteorites or comets are often equated with symbolic dragos) above a tree with a sunset of course has heavy connotations with the old gods and greenseers, last hero.

So, Brienne's shield switches from that of a vassal of Targs to a vassal of the North basically.  

The bat changing into Dunk's shield can also be seen as a transformation of the shields/sigils at the ToJ:

Hightower flame (fire) + Dayne's star + Whent bat (dragon wings). We don't know this yet in aGoT, but the Hightowers were the "green dragons" during the Dance. We have a green Dayne star on Dunk's shield. And instead of dragon wings (the bat), we have a tree.

Edited February 22, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Sandy Clegg]

So, i haven't read ADWD since I watched 'The Door' episode of the show. But this has to be a reference, right?

 

Quote

Hodor walked with one eye frozen shut, his thick brown beard a tangle of hoarfrost, icicles drooping from the ends of his bushy mustache. One gloved hand still clutched the rusty iron longsword he had taken from the crypts below Winterfell, and from time to time he would lash out at a branch, knocking loose a spray of snow. "Hod-d-d-dor," he would mutter, his teeth chattering."

Say it out loud.

[Nadden]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:47 PM, Seams said:

(His first wife was a Royce, and we see Ser Waymar Royce in the opening scene of AGoT at a moment when a long-closed door has been opened.) 

Are you seeing the “great rock” as the long closed door?

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Nadden said:

Are you seeing the “great rock” as the long closed door?

I don't have a specific location or landmark in mind. Just thinking of the return of the Others, the direwolves below the Wall, etc.