Proof that Margaery and her cousins are guilty?

[RoamingRonin]

Cersei, AFFC:

Quote

Kettleblack chewed on one end of his mustache. "We need to catch them during the deed."

"How? Qyburn has eyes on her day and night. Her serving men take my coin, but bring us only trifles. Yet no one has seen this lover. The ears outside her door hear singing, laughter, gossip, nothing of any use."

 

"Margaery is too shrewd to be caught so easily," said Lady Merryweather. "Her women are her castle walls. They sleep with her, dress her, pray with her, read with her, sew with her. When she is not hawking or riding she is playing come-into-my-castle with little Alysanne Bulwer. Whenever men are about, her septa will be with her, or her cousins."

Sansa, ASOS:

Quote

Lady Olenna squirmed forward. "Even when I was a girl younger than you, it was well known that in the Red Keep the very walls have ears. Well, they will be the better for a song, and meanwhile we girls shall speak freely."

"But," Sansa said, "Varys . . . he knows, he always . . ."
 

"Sing louder!" the Queen of Thorns shouted at Butterbumps. "These old ears are almost deaf, you know. Are you whispering at me, you fat fool? I don't pay you for whispers. Sing!"
 

". . . THE BEAR!" thundered Butterbumps, his great deep voice echoing off the rafters. "OH, COME, THEY SAID, OH COME TO THE FAIR! THE FAIR? SAID HE, BUT I'M A BEAR! ALL BLACK AND BROWN, AND COVERED WITH HAIR!"

Sansa, ASOS:

Quote

Margaery was different, though. Sweet and gentle, yet there was a little of her grandmother in her, too.

Has Margaery learned a neat trick from her grandmother to hide her treason?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Even if she uses tricks, it doesn't mean she is guilty of anything.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

To answer the question in the title, no, no proof that Margaery and her cousins are guilty.

Just evidence that they may have something to hide. It's the royal court, though, everybody has something to hide.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

Off topic, I have been re-reading the Thousand Worlds stories and was reminded last night where I had heard your name before.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The real damning evidence is Pycelle, he confirms to Kevan that he did make the moon tea for Margery, he didn't just tell Cersei what she wanted to hear.  The question is whether or not his previous testimony will be entered at her trial.  If so his death will look very suspicious.  The theory that she got it for 1 of her cousins makes no sense at all.  If she got it before she knew who she was dealing with in Cersei and just wanted to make sure she didn't pop out a baby from Renly it makes perfect sense.  Any sane person including Tywin would have understood that and not said a word.

[slant]

I don't think the question is really if or what has been in marg's pudenda. I think the question GRRM is really posing is more about the trial, the methods of examination and proof, and if that procedure is fair or anybody's business. 

[WSmith84]

48 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The real damning evidence is Pycelle, he confirms to Kevan that he did make the moon tea for Margery, he didn't just tell Cersei what she wanted to hear.  The question is whether or not his previous testimony will be entered at her trial.  If so his death will look very suspicious.  The theory that she got it for 1 of her cousins makes no sense at all.  If she got it before she knew who she was dealing with in Cersei and just wanted to make sure she didn't pop out a baby from Renly it makes perfect sense.  Any sane person including Tywin would have understood that and not said a word.

But why would Margaery ask for moontea from Pycelle instead of the Tyrell maester? And why wait so long? If she bedded Renly, why not take the moontea immediately after he died? That's the bit that makes no sense. Even if she's completely unaware that Pycelle is a Lannister lackey, why take such an unnecessary risk?

[aryagonnakill#2]

9 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

But why would Margaery ask for moontea from Pycelle instead of the Tyrell maester? And why wait so long? If she bedded Renly, why not take the moontea immediately after he died? That's the bit that makes no sense. Even if she's completely unaware that Pycelle is a Lannister lackey, why take such an unnecessary risk?

Do we really know when she got it from Pycelle?  I don't remember him saying it was a specific date.  Also, do we know there was a Tyrell maester in the city?  Perhaps Margery started to show signs of pregnancy and decided to take it and had not up until that point.

[sarah.jenice]

It's been awhile since I've read the book, but I thought Pycelle made it sound like she was getting it from him on a regular basis, not just one time. But I could be totally misremembering that. 

There was also the examination by the septas that found her to be missing her hymen, but there's the argument that highborn girls can have that happen from riding. 

I really hope we get some actual answers on this. Margaery is one of the characters that I would like to learn more about, and I don't want to see her die without knowing if she did have a lover(s) and if she was involved in Joff's murder plot. 

[WSmith84]

4 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Do we really know when she got it from Pycelle?  I don't remember him saying it was a specific date.  Also, do we know there was a Tyrell maester in the city?  Perhaps Margery started to show signs of pregnancy and decided to take it and had not up until that point.

But a smart person, surely, would have taken it pretty much immediately after Renly died just in case they'd gotten pregnant? Why bother waiting for signs of it? And there was a Tyrell maester (Bellabar) in the city, at least while Mace was there. They may have departed when Mace and Olenna left, but they might have stayed. I don't recall.

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 minute ago, WSmith84 said:

But a smart person, surely, would have taken it pretty much immediately after Renly died just in case they'd gotten pregnant? Why bother waiting for signs of it? And there was a Tyrell maester (Bellabar) in the city, at least while Mace was there. They may have departed when Mace and Olenna left, but they might have stayed. I don't recall.

The thing is, while people have suggested some sort of trap for Cersei, that really does not make sense.  If the Tyrells wanted to jump ship to Aegon they had all the troops to do it, it could have just been done.  Instead some people are proposing some super elaborate plan that no 1 can yet really figure out that involves Loras being ok(this part is believable) and that they set some sort of trap for Cersei to arrest Margery which was somehow suppose to backfire on Cersei.  I just don't understand it at all.  So Pycelle gave her moon tea, and the Tyrells weren't setting a trap because they had no need to, neither did Margerys cousins or maidens need her to get it for them.  What were left with is Margery for some reason being desperate for moon tea.  I don't think it is all that unplausible that she did not want to take moon tea beforehand because it can damage a womans reproductive system, and that the Tyrell maester had left the city leaving her no choice.  Anything other than that is seriously wild speculation.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

He cringed. “Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for . . .”

“I know what moon tea is for.”

It's plausible that Pycelle didn't mean "for what", but "for whom" and didn't correct Cersei, because he simply was terrified of her. Might be that that "whom" was someone inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, and Margaery wasn't too worried about sharing that secret with Pycelle, because that secret wasn't worth all that much.

[Belgarad]

Now that Robert Strong is on the Kingsguard, why doesn't Marg just request a trial by combat and make him her champion?  Obviously no living person is going to defeat the undead Mountain.  I guess Cersei could have Qyburn make Strong "take a dive" but then she would be without her personal Frankenstein.  That would be the like sacrificing your Queen in chess to take out a pawn.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

The broken hymens cannot be sufficiently explained.If we add Pycelle's statement and that the supposed lovers are in Qyburn's hands,Margaery is lost.My opinion is that Renly had consummated the wedding to have an heir but his sexual preferences didn't allow him to have often sex with his wife.So when he died,Margaery was not pregnant.

[RoamingRonin]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

He cringed. “Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for . . .”

“I know what moon tea is for.”

It's plausible that Pycelle didn't mean "for what", but "for whom" and didn't correct Cersei, because he simply was terrified of her. Might be that that "whom" was someone inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, and Margaery wasn't too worried about sharing that secret with Pycelle, because that secret wasn't worth all that much.

Yes. I should have included that. Not to mention Taena telling Cersei one of Marge's cousins made out with a pot boy and Sansa recalls the cousins kissing each other for practice. Littlefinger even says Marge doesn't care for a crown or her maidenhead which is such an odd thing to say. What did he learn when he visited the Tyrells?

Considering Martin lifted this subplot from something he read in the Accursed Kings series, which is based on an actual event where the accused were found guilty, I lean toward conclusion that Marge and/or her cousins have been sexually active.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

51 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

Yes. I should have included that. Not to mention Taena telling Cersei one of Marge's cousins made out with a pot boy and Sansa recalls the cousins kissing each other for practice. Littlefinger even says Marge doesn't care for a crown or her maidenhead which is such an odd thing to say. What did he learn when he visited the Tyrells?

Considering Martin lifted this subplot from something he read in the Accursed Kings series, which is based on an actual event where the accused were found guilty, I lean toward conclusion that Marge and/or her cousins have been sexually active.

I'm trying to think which would be funnier - if Cersei was completely off base and Marge was chaste as they come, or if she was having an affair(s) but Cersei was so incompetent that she couldn't find the right person(s). 

Also, are there theories that Margery isn't straight, or have I somehow accidentally imposed that idea on to her myself? 

[Neds Secret]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

He cringed. “Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for . . .”

“I know what moon tea is for.”

It's plausible that Pycelle didn't mean "for what", but "for whom" and didn't correct Cersei, because he simply was terrified of her. Might be that that "whom" was someone inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, and Margaery wasn't too worried about sharing that secret with Pycelle, because that secret wasn't worth all that much.

Yeah that's how I read it also, that it was for somebody else and Cersei just cut him off in her haste to believe that it was for margeary, and that Pycelle did not have the courage to speak up and break it to Cersei that it was not for margeary.

[Maxxine]

I was just about to start a thread about Margaery because I had a similar question. I just can't finger her out. Is Cersei in any way correct about Margaery. Is she a virgin? Obviously Pycelle's moon tea claim is damning. But who's she sleeping with? I'm convinced she never slept with Renly or Joffrey. Nor the Blue Bard. If he really were sleeping with her he think he would've gave it up before the cut out his eye. Loras? Possibly but his many brother-sister relationships can we have especially when it's looked down upon in Westeros outside of Targs.

Outside the sex issue, is she really the conniving bitch Cersei thinks she is? I don't think so. Yeah she wants to be queen, but idk if she as bad as Cersei thinks she is. Her not having a POV or at least not having POV be in her inner circle is really frustrating, but maybe that's the point.

[heraldofdragons]

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

But why would Margaery ask for moontea from Pycelle instead of the Tyrell maester? And why wait so long? If she bedded Renly, why not take the moontea immediately after he died? That's the bit that makes no sense. Even if she's completely unaware that Pycelle is a Lannister lackey, why take such an unnecessary risk?

IIRC she sent her own maester to tend to Loras when she heard that he was grievously wounded. so there's a window of time where she might reasonably have gone to Pycelle, who is (in name at least) her husband's maester and bound to serve her as well.

As for the OP, even if she wasn't plotting, there's a lot that young girls might talk about that they might not want other people to hear. (chiefly, "ugh why is Cersei such a bitch all of the time?" and the like) Margaery also loves to ride, and there's also a lot two people can talk about riding ahead of a group that would go unheard. It could go either way for me, but I imagine she just wants her privacy, especially as she's in a position where she has to contend with a pretty hostile Queen Regent

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Yes. I should have included that. Not to mention Taena telling Cersei one of Marge's cousins made out with a pot boy and Sansa recalls the cousins kissing each other for practice. Littlefinger even says Marge doesn't care for a crown or her maidenhead which is such an odd thing to say. What did he learn when he visited the Tyrells?

Considering Martin lifted this subplot from something he read in the Accursed Kings series, which is based on an actual event where the accused were found guilty, I lean toward conclusion that Marge and/or her cousins have been sexually active.

In the Accursed Kings, one of the three women is not guilty of adultery, she is the lookout (as Cersei suggests one of Marg's cousins might be). If the parallels run very closely, I would think that Margaery is perhaps the lookout, and simply facilitates her cousins indiscretions.