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R+L=J v.160


SFDanny

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Well there were several clues and mentioned that indicate the R+L=J theory, so unless GRMM must have include there for a certain reasons, why would it be there randomly? And keep this in mind, the series started back around 1996, internet has not evolve much as much as community and forums did not exist back then. So there wouldn't be someone who can present the evidence of R+L=J to the whole fans. If R+L=J was to be revealed back then in around late 90s, this would be considered the most shocking plot twist cinematic, almost shocking as that Star War plot twist (i know this was popular and everyone knows this twist, but... for the sake of the minority who weren't aware, i won't spoiler it). Though later on with many fans recognize the theory thanks to the community on internet, it became an accepted theory. So it R+L=J is going to be reveal, we won't be surprise. But back in the late 90s, we would be blown away.

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Jon has a lot of wolf references as well as dragon ones. GRRM will be the biggest troll in the century if R+L=J is not true, I mean, there are TONS and TONS of evidences for it.

However, on the other hand, Dany... Her visions of rulers of Empire of the Dawn (which some in the fandom believe Daynes originated from) in House of Undying, Barristan's comparison of Ashara and Dany and how they have the same eyes, also the whole "lemon tree in Braavos" business makes me question if Rhaella is truly her mother. Of course, this might be on purpose on GRRM's part and he might be laughing at our misery of trying to solve these questions of heritage, but still, why include all this... So yeah, I would say I have more suspicion Dany is not who she thinks she is. "Remember who you are...The dragons know, do you?" is Quaithe's main advice to her after all.

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5 hours ago, house of dayne said:

it is not beyond the pale to suggest that grrm will never overtly reveal jons parentage, and im fine with that..

Certainly not beyond the pale. It does indicate someone who hasn't done their research though, or someone calling GRRM a liar.
SSM June 2001
5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.
Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

5 hours ago, house of dayne said:

we obsess about it as readers but in universe it seems very unimportant..jon has magic from his northern blood but literally nothing has ever been shown to suggest he has any targaryen traits at all...

Actually he's shown several traits in common with some Targaryens. Physical, mental and emotional.

5 hours ago, house of dayne said:

his story arc does not need him to become a targaryen as it is his stark blood that seems most important in the north...

Ahh, I see you know everything already...

5 hours ago, house of dayne said:

perhaps rhaegar is his father, perhaps not..thus far in the books no one seems to care at all..

Just about everyone in the books cares very much who his father is - pretty much everything he is or has has come to him due to being the son of Eddard Stark.
No one in the books cares much about the 'mystery' of his mother, because she's just not very important compared to Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell. Although... lets see, we've had people from Dorne, the Stepstones, the Westlands, the Northlands and the Riverlands all discuss his unimportant mother (plus the Stormlands if you count Robert, but I don't as he was focused on Ned's slippage, not Jon's mummy), which is really quite the collection for an unimportant bastard...

5 hours ago, house of dayne said:

if george leaves the question un answered he will provoke the readers into their own conclusions...try reading any of the heresy essays and you will soon see that george left himself many possibilities

Mostly you will see people tying themselves into knots trying to do an impossible job.

5 hours ago, house of dayne said:

...truth is a very elusive thing when everything is revealed to us by unreliable narrators with their own biases..instead of pinning it down to one truth, perhaps george instead wove multiple possibilities with the idea that the reader was to decide...

Thats not what George says...

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7 hours ago, house of dayne said:

after five books, and despite all the speculation, r+l=j is not confirmed...grrm has had many chances to reveal the truth and he has not...im just saying if it was as straight forward as readers like to pretend it is, chances are grrm would not have prolonged the agonizing suspense so long...after all, would it not be a massive let down to find out  the big secret twist is exactly what everyone saw coming a mile away?...im thinking george is a better story teller than that...r+l=j is a classic red herring and the proof is how easily so many readers have accepted it as canon..george is exactly the kind of writer who loves to smash readers expectations...jons parentage may never get revealed because it might not be relevant...get used to that idea.

The series was supposed to be three books released a couple years apart. The last two books and the upcoming one have taken almost 4 times as long to write than the first three did. Luckily, George has not changed his plots because someone on the internet figured it out 

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Oh, R+L=J is real, but you nailed it with real question: In what way is it relevant? Do we need to get it confirmed? Does it serve the story in any way, or is it just nice background flavour? I don't think we need the big reveal if it's not doing anything for the story.

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12 hours ago, house of dayne said:

...perhaps rhaegar is his father, perhaps not..thus far in the books no one seems to care at all.

I disagree, there were three notable and highly revered knights that it mattered to.  That concern was transferred to Ned, though we are never privy to his direct thoughts concerning Jon's father, though he does think of Rhaegar frequently, he does not directly connect the dots for the reader.  That does not disprove what the three kingsguard tell us, indirectly, but the message is clear that Jon's father was Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. 

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12 hours ago, house of dayne said:

.try reading any of the heresy essays and you will soon see that george left himself many possibilities 

Ah, I knew I had seen the rhetorics somewhere :rolleyes: Alas, it seems that only a handful of the chosen ones is able to see those many possibilities, whereas the sheeple see only fanfiction.

Anyone knows how to use Comis Sans in the new skin?

5 hours ago, joluoto2 said:

Oh, R+L=J is real, but you nailed it with real question: In what way is it relevant? Do we need to get it confirmed? Does it serve the story in any way, or is it just nice background flavour? I don't think we need the big reveal if it's not doing anything for the story.

Well, since GRRM set a mystery and then confirmed that both the readers and Jon will learn, the reveal will apparently serve the story in some way.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Anyone knows how to use Comis Sans in the new skin?

I don't think you can, the font box is gone. Instead we have these subscript and superscript buttons that I'm not sure anyone uses. I'll mention it in the board issues thread. 

In the meantime pasting it from another source (MS word in this case) seems to work.

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On 3/8/2016 at 8:09 PM, house of dayne said:

after five books, and despite all the speculation, r+l=j is not confirmed...grrm has had many chances to reveal the truth and he has not...im just saying if it was as straight forward as readers like to pretend it is, chances are grrm would not have prolonged the agonizing suspense so long...after all, would it not be a massive let down to find out  the big secret twist is exactly what everyone saw coming a mile away?...im thinking george is a better story teller than that...r+l=j is a classic red herring and the proof is how easily so many readers have accepted it as canon..george is exactly the kind of writer who loves to smash readers expectations...jons parentage may never get revealed because it might not be relevant...get used to that idea.

I'm not sure how many times this has been pointed out over the years, but that's not how red herrings work. And it's certainly not how GRRM has used them so far. For example, early in the series we're told that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. But later on we find out it was Lysa, on the orders of Littlefinger. We were never told those two were suspects.

Now, with Jon's parentage we've been told that Ned is the father, and we've been told that the mother is Wylla, the FMD, or maybe even Ashara Dayne. We've never been told that RLJ is one of the possibilities.

On 3/8/2016 at 9:51 PM, house of dayne said:

it is not beyond the pale to suggest that grrm will never overtly reveal jons parentage, and im fine with that..we obsess about it as readers but in universe it seems very unimportant..jon has magic from his northern blood but literally nothing has ever been shown to suggest he has any targaryen traits at all...his story arc does not need him to become a targaryen as it is his stark blood that seems most important in the north...perhaps rhaegar is his father, perhaps not..thus far in the books no one seems to care at all..if george leaves the question un answered he will provoke the readers into their own conclusions...try reading any of the heresy essays and you will soon see that george left himself many possibilities ...truth is a very elusive thing when everything is revealed to us by unreliable narrators with their own biases..instead of pinning it down to one truth, perhaps george instead wove multiple possibilities with the idea that the reader was to decide...

Sorry, but no. Those essays had some good things going for them. However, the (non-RLJ) essays completely failed to present anything resembling a coherent case for Jon Snow's parentage.

By the way, wasn't there supposed to be a wrap up thread for those essays, or did I miss that?

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It is immaterial .

1. For Jon unless his mother is alive somewhere it means nothing . He is a man now not some child moaning for his parents.

2. If R+L=J , that would mean Dany and Jon are close relation . Jon may cease being the son of the Usurper's dogs for Dany but for Jon she would be his niece .

3.For Westeros all know him lord Stark's bastard .

4. In the coming war with the Others the is no evidence that Targ blood is needed .

 

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37 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

It is immaterial .

1. For Jon unless his mother is alive somewhere it means nothing . He is a man now not some child moaning for his parents.

2. If R+L=J , that would mean Dany and Jon are close relation . Jon may cease being the son of the Usurper's dogs for Dany but for Jon she would be his niece .

3.For Westeros all know him lord Stark's bastard .

4. In the coming war with the Others the is no evidence that Targ blood is needed .

 

Actually, if Jon is Rhaegar's son, Jon would be Dany's nephew, and she would be his aunt. He would actually have a better claim to the Iron Throne than she would (assuming he were legitimate, which is a separate question), as he would be the heir of the heir. The only reason Viserys was presumed to be the "true" King was because it was believed that all Rhaegar's heirs were dead. 

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19 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

It is immaterial .

1. For Jon unless his mother is alive somewhere it means nothing . He is a man now not some child moaning for his parents.

2. If R+L=J , that would mean Dany and Jon are close relation . Jon may cease being the son of the Usurper's dogs for Dany but for Jon she would be his niece .

3.For Westeros all know him lord Stark's bastard .

4. In the coming war with the Others the is no evidence that Targ blood is needed .

 

I generally disagree with your conclusions for the following reasons:

1. For Jon, I think the significance of RLJ depends in part on what exactly he finds out and how. I strongly suspect that he will learn that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and wanted Jon very much. Learning that he was not an unwanted bastard -- but rather the love child of the Crown Prince and Ned's sister -- will change how Jon views himself. I agree that Jon is not moaning for his parents -- but he does seem to moan a lot about the horrors of being an unwanted bastard. Learning that everything he used to think about himself is not true likely will have a profound effect on Jon. 

2. As far as Jon and Dany are concerned, being family to each other likely will matter (as GS points out, Dany would be Jon's aunt and not niece, but that is just a quibble and not really that relevant to the nature of their relationship once they meet and discover that they are "long-lost" relatives to each other). I think their ability to form an alliance will be affected positively by learning they are related.

3. The readers don't have enough information at this point to know whether the rest of Westeros will learn of Jon's true heritage. After the war has ended, if Westeros is looking for a new King (after massive devastation and huge loss of life), Jon's heritage might come into play. But maybe no one other than those close to Jon will ever learn of his true heritage. The possibilities are too vast and clues too nebulous to form any conclusions with a high degree of confidence. But I don't think it is reasonable to conclude with any degree of certainty that Jon will continue to be known to people at-large solely as Ned's bastard through the end of the series.

4. The readers have no idea what will be required to defeat the Others -- they seem close to unbeatable at this point. But we know that the prophecy suggests that instrumental in the defeat of the Others will be the actions of TPTWP, whose song is the Song of Ice and Fire. Jon appears to be the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, so I suspect that Jon's Targ heritage (combined with his Stark heritage) might be central to defeating the Others. Riding a dragon also might be important to that task, and Targ blood appears to be required to bond with a dragon. So while we don't know for sure if or how Targ blood will come into play in Jon's role in the War for the Dawn 2.0, I disagree that there is "no evidence." There may not be conclusive proof, but some evidence exists that Jon's Targ blood will be central to defeating the Others.  

18 hours ago, GreenSeeress said:

Actually, if Jon is Rhaegar's son, Jon would be Dany's nephew, and she would be his aunt. He would actually have a better claim to the Iron Throne than she would (assuming he were legitimate, which is a separate question), as he would be the heir of the heir. The only reason Viserys was presumed to be the "true" King was because it was believed that all Rhaegar's heirs were dead. 

Actually, TWOIAF includes a passage stating that Viserys became the new heir after the death of Rhaegar, suggesting that Aerys specifically named V as heir after R died. So arguably, V would have had a strong claim to being King even if the existence of Jon as the legit son of Rhaegar had been known after Robert's Rebellion. But V is now dead, so his claim does not necessarily transfer to Dany, and Jon arguably would still have the stronger claim over Dany, especially given the preference in Targ inheritance rules to crown males over females. The real question that V being named heir raises in respect of assessing the clues to date is what did the 3 KG at ToJ know and when did they know it (regarding deaths of royals (Rheagar, Aerys and Aegon) and naming of V as heir). I suspect that at the time of the battle with Ned, the 3 KG knew of the deaths of the 3 royals but did not have knowledge of the naming of V. If this analysis is incorrect, however, it would put the actions of the 3 KG in a different light in terms of why they were guarding ToJ.

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4 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Actually, TWOIAF includes a passage stating that Viserys became the new heir after the death of Rhaegar, suggesting that Aerys specifically named V as heir after R died. So arguably, V would have had a strong claim to being King even if the existence of Jon as the legit son of Rhaegar had been known after Robert's Rebellion. But V is now dead, so his claim does not necessarily transfer to Dany, and Jon arguably would still have the stronger claim over Dany, especially given the preference in Targ inheritance rules to crown males over females. The real question that V being named heir raises in respect of assessing the clues to date is what did the 3 KG at ToJ know and when did they know it (regarding deaths of royals (Rheagar, Aerys and Aegon) and naming of V as heir). I suspect that at the time of the battle with Ned, the 3 KG knew of the deaths of the 3 royals but did not have knowledge of the naming of V. If this analysis is incorrect, however, it would put the actions of the 3 KG in a different light in terms of why they were guarding ToJ.

Interesting, I missed that reference to Aerys naming Viserys as heir in TWOIAF. But of course, he did so not knowing that Rhaegar had another child on the way through Lyanna. And in any case, TWOIAF is putatively authored by a maester who would regurgitate the common understanding that Rhaegar died without heirs. 

How Jon's true heritage is revealed may play out differently in the books and in the TV show (and we're likely to see it first on TV). If it is through Bran's visions/flashbacks (as the trailer suggests), it's not clear that Jon himself will know he's a Targ when he's first resurrected.  How would he see what Bran sees? Perhaps Melisandre will see it in the flames somehow. Certainly, Dany has seen clues in her visions in Qarth (the blue flower coming out of the ice, the dragon must have three heads) but had no context for them. How would Melisandre interpret new clues in the flames? Or would she simply see the clues as signs that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, with nothing to connect Jon to the Targaryens? Maybe that only comes later when Dany connects with Jon and Mel. 

OTOH, maybe Howland Reed will finally show up somewhere to tell the whole story to Jon directly. Or through some warg to warg communication between Bran and Jon, or Summer and Ghost. I have a feeling Howland Reed is never showing up on TV, but he still might in the books. 

The uncertainty about how the reveal takes place makes me wonder whether Jon will rise first as Jon Stark,  based perhaps on

  • Robb's will, assuming it somehow gets to Castle Black,
  • something Stannis left behind (maybe someone finds a copy of the letter of legitimization that Stannis offered Jon), or
  • his own decision ("Now that I've died and risen again I can be whoever  the hell I want to be, and I've always wanted to be Jon Stark"), 

 discovering his Targ identity only later on. 

Cannot wait to see how it all unfolds.

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Maybe Jon ends up with 3 different names as he goes through the books. Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch

Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North (?)

Jon Targaryan (?)

Three names of the dragon.

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On 3/14/2016 at 2:03 PM, GreenSeeress said:

Interesting, I missed that reference to Aerys naming Viserys as heir in TWOIAF. But of course, he did so not knowing that Rhaegar had another child on the way through Lyanna. And in any case, TWOIAF is putatively authored by a maester who would regurgitate the common understanding that Rhaegar died without heirs.

That is not the common understanding. Rhaegar predeceased his children by Elia.

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I think we might consider ourselves forewarned. I think it would be only fair to issue a similar warning for the other side, who will also get a gutpunch when RLJ is confirmed.

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