Lady Stoneheart and Jon Snow

[Masha]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That would make Jon dead.   Perhaps my wording was off.  dinner opened with " I don't think he is dead (just gravely wounded)"--that is the part I was speaking to.   He's either dead or not.  In your scenario he would have to be dead.   Unless you see this happening within a short span of minutes (3 or 4, but no more than that) following the stabbing?  Am I following you correctly in that Jon only has to be proclaimed dead and a brother has to speak "his watch has ended" for him to be released from his vows.   I get the revival happening afterward as the actual release, but your statement leads me to think that the NW has to proclaim or verify his death and that matters in the process.  

Yes, in my scenario he is dead, then somehow revived.  I did not notice the previous quote you are alluding to.

And yes, for Jon to be released from his NW vows and be accepted by Northmen as well as other peoples of Westeros, he has to be confirmed as have been released from his vows by a confirmed NW member. Even if it is someone like Thorne screaming that he is a Warg, a curse and a wight and "real" Jon Snow died and no longer member of NW. He cannot just be dead for 1 minute then revived and then considered himself to be released from his vows, even if NW had betrayed him. Its not enough for Jon to consider himself released from his vows, the rest of characters must consider it too - even his detractors and enemies, for him to legitimately operate outside of NW.

23 hours ago, bemused said:

GRRM has said that a precedent exists for releasing a man from a binding oath (KG orNW) but that it has rarely been used.  

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

 And from ASoS, when Robb and Cat are diagreeing over Robb's succession...

He is set on this. Catelyn knew stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”
“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

This means Robb knows there is a precedent, but (of course) legitimizing a bastard is much more common. Robb thought, at that time, offering 100 men in exchange for Jon might do the trick. I don't know if he was right or wrong, but even if Jon was released from all the superfluous (IMO) parts of the oath (wives, children, etc.etc.) I'm sure he'd always feel a responsibility to protect the realms of men, anyway.

So I think there will be some perfectly logical way to release him that doesn't involve a loophole that requires him to die, first. If he was resurrected, it would mean coming back as less than what he was. If he's not dead, through his bond with Ghost, or his wolf blood suddenly asserting itself, he will be  more than what he was, but still fully human.

Frankly speaking, that precedent has not been mentioned to or alluded to very clearly or noticeably. That quote of GRRM is very unclear, if there is a precedent for a man to be HONORABLY released from his NW vows and be considered not a NW traitor and such, its not being mentioned at all in ANY of the books.

The conversation with Robb for me means that he says that there is an actual precedent to legitimize a bastard to inherit - very few but existant, which is more than he can say about existing precedent for releasing a man from his NW vows because such thing never happened before. And Catelyn is rightfully skeptical that it could happen.

If there is such precedent, its probably shady and weak and I don't think it will be used for Jon. The only thing I am thinking of that could release Jon from NW vows honorably other than his actual confirmed death, is public declaration and confirmation of his identity as Targaryen, which means his vows taken as a "Jon Snow" are not valid anymore in public opinion. But since I doubt that his identity as Targaryen would ever be revealed other than to readers and couple of characters, this would not work.

[Whitering]

On 2/21/2016 at 11:10 AM, DigUpHerBones said:

i have been sold on this for years.

it makes too much sense to Cat's arc and it's ultimate conclusion, Jon's as well.

the fact is Mel (the other name most seemed convinced will revive JS) has never revived anyone.

it would make sense that Beric passed it to SH and she could pass it to Jon.

Do we know she hasn't done the ritual though? Thoros says he had done it for a long time, but with Beric it finally worked, which convinced him that Beric was special, and maybe he was to some degree, but we are all pretty sure it worked because Danny had some dragons, and a red comet passed overhead or some mix of those things.

See, I have this theory that all the Red Temple higher ups are undead because it is quite clear that Mel and Moqorro are. That is probably what gets them to their fervent state and I imagine is the ultimate test of faith and devotion, and it nicely mirrors the irnoborn ceremony, except, it actually works. Now, Mel and Moqorro may predate the decline of magic, but I don't tend to think so, maybe there is a Red Temple in Asshai where magic still worked and that's where they did their resurrection ceremonies.

Cat on the other hand, I can't see her adopting Robb's wishes, she seems to have fixated on her vengeance and things she hates, Jon being one of them, I mean, she has done nothing in the South but bad mouth him to anyone that would listen...to all the people that defend Cat, how do you feel about that? It probably happened as a result of both Theon and Robb's will, but still, he's a kid, in the Night's Watch, 1000 miles away, even with all that she never gained any clarity.

[Masha]

I don't think that Lady Stoneheart arc would interact with Jon's at all. If Jon would ever come down south, Lady Stoneheart would be long gone.

What I could see, unless both Brianne and Jaime deal with her somehow ahead of time, that Lady Stoneheart arc would intersect with either Sansa or Arya and that would be the end of her. She would either save Sansa from danger and then just stop as having fulfilled her purpose, OR she attacks/screams at Arya and Arya kills her as pity kill (or perhaps Nymeria would do that for her)

[bemused]

13 hours ago, Masha said:

Frankly speaking, that precedent has not been mentioned to or alluded to very clearly or noticeably. That quote of GRRM is very unclear, if there is a precedent for a man to be HONORABLY released from his NW vows and be considered not a NW traitor and such, its not being mentioned at all in ANY of the books.

No, it's been quite well hidden.. we've only been given the hints I alluded to. However, I don't know what is unclear about George's answer.. "Yes, there have been a few other cases, but they have been very rare." .. he was being asked about whether there was precedent for an honourable release. The answer was yes. He simply hasn't told us what it is in the text of the books (ASoIaF, or related) ...yet.

13 hours ago, Masha said:

The conversation with Robb for me means that he says that there is an actual precedent to legitimize a bastard to inherit - very few but existant, which is more than he can say about existing precedent for releasing a man from his NW vows because such thing never happened before. And Catelyn is rightfully skeptical that it could happen.

No, he quite clearly says there is more precedent for legitimizing a bastard than for releasing a NW brother from his vows. Robb doesn't say such a thing never happened before, no other character says it never happened before, and GRRM says precedent exists... so I can't agree with your understanding.

As an aside, legitimizing a recognised bastard is not all that rare - see Aegon VI . Currently we have Ramsay Bolton, and from the discussion of the Hornwood problem at the harvest feast, Luwin and Rodrik Cassell saw the wisdom in Bran's "Let the bastard rule" and probably would have recommended legitimizing Larence Snow to Robb. (I won't be surprised to see Larence Snow declared Larence Hornwood, either in Robb's will / document, or by the next KiTN.) Robert's recognised bastard, Edric Storm may yet be the one to continue the Baratheon line (not necessarily dynasty), who knows?... I do know that GRRM is working a continual shell game with bastards.

13 hours ago, Masha said:

If there is such precedent, its probably shady and weak and I don't think it will be used for Jon. The only thing I am thinking of that could release Jon from NW vows honorably other than his actual confirmed death, is public declaration and confirmation of his identity as Targaryen, which means his vows taken as a "Jon Snow" are not valid anymore in public opinion. But since I doubt that his identity as Targaryen would ever be revealed other than to readers and couple of characters, this would not work.

Why would it be shady and weak ???? There are great gaps in the history of the NW.. either the long night didn't happen quite so long ago, or the records of over 300 LCs have been lost or suppressed. Seems we could have a number of NW revelations in store.

Why Jon Targaryen ? By that same reasoning, Jon Stark never took the vows either, and Robb almost certainly declared Jon legitimate. The North is not in the mood to disavow the declarations of The Young Wolf and look instead for verification by King's landing... The wildlings won't care what he's called - they follow the man.. and the faction of the NW that supports Jon (substantial, IMO) already know him as Benjen's nephew and Ned's bastard. How much favourable public opinion do you want ?

Of course this is all moot, because I'm not sure he'll need to be released.

ETA: But I do agree Jon and LSH are unlikely to meet.

[JonisHenryTudor]

If the NW's is destroyed...that releases him ;). Either way, I doubt Jon will stop serving the realm regardless of his status/position, so.....

[bemused]

On 2/24/2016 at 7:39 PM, Curled Finger said:

I read your link and it's confirmed in classic ambiguous GRRM fashion.   This talk of a perfectly logical way to release him has piqued my interest.   Any idea how this might occur?   If the troops assembled at Winterfell are any real indication, there aren't 100 men of fighting age left to trade.   A faction of the NW has been trying to get rid of Jon since he arrived.  Any chance they can just boot him out since he hasn't actually deserted?   In truth, the NW was the best place for Jon to learn about protecting the realm while gaining experience with separatist ideals.  He's already taken huge steps to unify the NW.  I've been over the NW vows and can't find anything other than "death" as an out.   Maybe you've spotted something else with potential?  If Jon's wolf blood is up and he just tells them they're all a bunch of idiots with no idea what they are protecting or fighting for and has enough support for these ideas, can he just proclaim the NW fraudulent or derelict in duty and walk away with the masses?    

I'm just finishing up a reply, but I'm not sure I shouldn't take over to the Merging Storylines thread, as it has absolutely nothing to do with LSH, but does delve into other areas. What do you think ?

[Curled Finger]

19 hours ago, bemused said:

I'm just finishing up a reply, but I'm not sure I shouldn't take over to the Merging Storylines thread, as it has absolutely nothing to do with LSH, but does delve into other areas. What do you think ?

We LOVE it when you stop in to chat.   You are ALWAYS welcome to bring your vast knowledge and keen perceptions over.  We'll bring the good wine out for you, bemused. 

Great, you bolded and italicized parts of my post.   Now I pretty much have to know.  

[Curled Finger]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 9:45 AM, Masha said:

Yes, in my scenario he is dead, then somehow revived.  I did not notice the previous quote you are alluding to.

And yes, for Jon to be released from his NW vows and be accepted by Northmen as well as other peoples of Westeros, he has to be confirmed as have been released from his vows by a confirmed NW member. Even if it is someone like Thorne screaming that he is a Warg, a curse and a wight and "real" Jon Snow died and no longer member of NW. He cannot just be dead for 1 minute then revived and then considered himself to be released from his vows, even if NW had betrayed him. Its not enough for Jon to consider himself released from his vows, the rest of characters must consider it too - even his detractors and enemies, for him to legitimately operate outside of NW.

Frankly speaking, that precedent has not been mentioned to or alluded to very clearly or noticeably. That quote of GRRM is very unclear, if there is a precedent for a man to be HONORABLY released from his NW vows and be considered not a NW traitor and such, its not being mentioned at all in ANY of the books.

The conversation with Robb for me means that he says that there is an actual precedent to legitimize a bastard to inherit - very few but existant, which is more than he can say about existing precedent for releasing a man from his NW vows because such thing never happened before. And Catelyn is rightfully skeptical that it could happen.

If there is such precedent, its probably shady and weak and I don't think it will be used for Jon. The only thing I am thinking of that could release Jon from NW vows honorably other than his actual confirmed death, is public declaration and confirmation of his identity as Targaryen, which means his vows taken as a "Jon Snow" are not valid anymore in public opinion. But since I doubt that his identity as Targaryen would ever be revealed other than to readers and couple of characters, this would not work.

Masha, I'm reading the exchanges above and can't help thinking there is no ceremony to Jon being instantly proclaimed null and void.   Could easily be my lack of imagination.   Still I envision a brother standing over Jon and immediately saying he's dead and murmuring his watch has ended.   And it could be that simple, I just haven't seen anything simple from GRRM in this series.  Do you think a quick misdiagnosis is an honorable discharge from duty?  Not to knock your ideas at all, this just seems a cheap way out of such a difficult situation.   I've admitted my lack of imagination here and always imagined Jon wouldn't actually be released, but will leave willfully and angrily after a great deal of destruction.    This may be a cheap end as well, but at least he does it on his terms.   He struggles with everything and I don't see any easy transitions for him.  

[Lord Asher Forrester]

On 24/02/2016 at 1:08 PM, Jesse17Renee said:

I've been wondering about this for years. LSH character ONLY makes sense if she plays a role in Jon's future. 

What I don't see anyone pointing out is how easy it is going to be right now for her to find out. She is about to force Brienne and Jamie to fight, but what if Howland Reed shows up? She is in the Reech. He has the missive legitimizing Jon. He will want to come out and declare who Jon really is. Jamie LOVED Rheagar. He did NOT want to betray the Targareyens. He did it to save the innocent people in the city. Not to save his house. He did not want to kill his father, but had it come to just that, I think he would have, but it was really about the common people that the Mad King was going to Burn Alive. What if the truth comes out, just to the this group of people? They rush North, where LSH forces Jamie to take the vows of the Nights Watch, because no matter what, he will never be forgiven for his part in Bran's injury. He becomes their new one handed leader (okay, that's completely me just being hopeful) and they save Jon. Jon knows who he is. He fights the Boltons as "KING IN THE NORTH" because his brother wished it. At this point Faegon has crushed Kings Landing and Dany is on her way home. She gets there, sorts out Faegon and heads for the North (with the initial intent of destroying Jon) then she finds out who he is. They fight the walkers. The wall goes down... blah blah blah.... 

Nice it could very well be something like that. but as we know there are always the freaking plot twists uncle George like to include.

And of course Brienne saves Sansa and kills Little Finger with her bare hands as The Bear and the Maiden Fair is played in a next room... or not.

[Marakesh]

It would be odd to me that the Brotherhood without Banners has only 2 phases in the series. It starts out for justice, to enforce the king's justice on both sides. It transitions to revenge with unCat because justice was denied. Shouldn't there be a third phase? Some form of justice revived?

 

Cat's big flaw throughout the series has been her mistreatment of Jon. Then she's last seen with the crown in hand and we know what Rob's last wishes were. Forgiveness makes sense following the demand for justice and revenge themes before it. Plus it has some parallels to the Nissa Nissa myth except she sacrifices to revive the hero.

 

There's also Bran's vision that could be interpreted as Jon lying dead underneath the Wall. Plus Melisandre's of Jon turning into a wolf before becoming the crown.

 

If the Wall has been breached and the NW's is no longer an organized force, it won't matter what the technical rules are.

 

Final random comment - I think Thoros didn't really believe enough to have any power with the light before. Also, we know dragons are back in the world and so fire magic is more potent than before via the conversation Tyrion had with the alchemist. Melisandre thinks she's more powerful because of being near the wall, but I would guess she is helped by the same force that helped Marwyn light an obsidian candle for the first time in modern Westeros history.

[unitron]

The logistics of getting Cat and Jon to the same place at the same time (not to mention the need to create a situation where It's known that it's needed)  with the kind of weather that's going on make it about as likely as Varys growing back his missing parts.