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M80Mormont

Lady Stoneheart and Jon Snow

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Considering Catelyn has been revived and there's a strong possibility that Jon will soon be revived does anyone think that should these two meet, this will kind of be an interesting dynamic for them? I am not trying to predict this meeting based on evidence in the book but thinking more along the lines of what GRRM himself might be thinking and what might be good story telling. Considering their relationship in the past I'm expecting that in TWOW or ADOS these two will meet, both sharing the trait of having been revived, and that there might be interesting interactions between the two of them. 

Just a thought I had and I can imagine it's been brought up a few times but I'm just wondering what people think of it? 

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I always thought it would be interesting (in the books of course) if it was LS who gave her life to revive Jon, as Beric gave his to revive Cat. It could be that she recognizes that Jon is one of the very few (if not only) person who can save the realm, or at least retake the North and avenge the Starks. She believes that all her kids are dead, maybe with the exception of Sansa (escaped Kings Landing) and maybe Arya (Brienne caught word of her ages after Neds death).

This would be assuming that she's found out about Jons death somehow and can get to him. Wouldn't be a stretch if she has gained some knowledge from the flames as Thoros and Mel have. It's unlikely but certainly in the realm of possibility. Very interesting to see that earlier dynamic evolve.

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As much as I doubt this will happen I have to admit that I really like it.  LSH turns that crown in her hands over and over.   It stands to reason she has some thought about the King in the North as much as her revenge.  And Jamie only recently recovered the Queen in the North's crown.  Something is up with the crowns, though what I couldn't say.    Is it possible that LSH intends for what she remembers is Robb's wishes to be fulfilled?   That Jon should be Robb's heir and KITN?  Who knows what goes through her head other than those last insane thoughts before she was killed.  Is the crown just the last reminder she has of her dead son or does she intend to give someone that crown?   She's on fire looking for Arya and to a lesser degree Sansa--there is definitely more than one thing she remembers or intends.   But her reality is off kilter so her intentions are difficult to unravel here.   If LSH is the very worst of Cat incarnate with no opportunity for growth or change it's extremely unlikely that she will willingly partake in anything kind or good for Jon.  Perhaps that crown will be taken from her by another character? 

As to the kiss of life I wonder what happens if LSH is simply killed.  Can she be simply killed?   Are the rules different for creatures created by other resurrected creatures?  Does Thoros still have the ability to give magic kisses?  

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They can be killed. Beric was killed, was it.. 6 times? I don't think Thoros would revive her again, even if he could. He refused the first time (Beric did the deed). Thoros seems to not like what the BWB has become under LSH.

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i have been sold on this for years.

it makes too much sense to Cat's arc and it's ultimate conclusion, Jon's as well.

the fact is Mel (the other name most seemed convinced will revive JS) has never revived anyone.

it would make sense that Beric passed it to SH and she could pass it to Jon.

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Absolutely. After she snubbed him as a child for so many years, in one final act of contrition she sacrifices the life force to revive Jon just as Beric did for her. In the books.

 

In the show, if they don't introduce her in S06E01, it's gonna be Melisandre that does it.

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14 hours ago, bemused said:

They can be killed. Beric was killed, was it.. 6 times? I don't think Thoros would revive her again, even if he could. He refused the first time (Beric did the deed). Thoros seems to not like what the BWB has become under LSH.

I am wondering if the rules are different in LSH's case since she was resurrected by a resurrected person.   Beric died all those times but he was given the kiss by a living breathing mortal, not a fire zombie.   And I agree, Thoros isn't keen on doing much to promote or sustain LSH. 

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56 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am wondering if the rules are different in LSH's case since she was resurrected by a resurrected person.   Beric died all those times but he was given the kiss by a living breathing mortal, not a fire zombie.   And I agree, Thoros isn't keen on doing much to promote or sustain LSH. 

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure it would be so different (.. maybe it would...).. I mean, as I understand it, Beric didn't perform any magic, himself.. just passed on what Thoros had breathed into him. It still came from Thoros originally.

ETA: Regarding the OP.. I don't think Jon will need any resurrecting. I believe his "assassination" (as seen through his own POV) is written in a way to be pretty deceptive. So I don't think there will be an Unjon to meet Uncat..and if Cat was so set against Jon while she was alive, I would think LSH would be even moreso.

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I don't think he is dead (just gravely wounded) but even if he is then when he is raised he will be free of the night's watch, will have a willing army, and be in a position to really influence events in the north.

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There's a very good chance he's not even "gravely" wounded. The one wound that is visible is a graze. There is definitely another knife wound, but we don't know it's severity (we have to guess). The blow between the shoulderblades may not even have been a knife, but a shove.. (It's Jon's POV, but he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head.) There may not have been a wound from a fourth knife (he never felt it), and Jon is conscious when the chapter ends. ...We don't know if it ends because he loses consciousness, or if that's just where GRRM wanted to end it, in order to keep us guessing.

ETA: If you don't think George sometimes writes things that are deceptive, you might like to bid on the proverbial bridge.

 e.g. ...In the cold night air the wound was smoking. .. Which wound? This is written after Jon wrenches Bowen's knife free , but people can realise several things at the same time. We don't actually think a sentence at a time, we just have to write one thought at a time... And I want to point out that any wound from Bowen's knife is not exposed to the cold night air. Only the graze to his neck is... that has to be the wound that is "smoking"

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The thought of Catelyn reviving Jon is absolutely perfect but I don't see it happen.The events won't let her do anything for Jon.Arya seems to have appeared at Winderfell,Riverrun and Winderfell are held by Lannister allies,Sansa will probably appear in the Vale,Jaime and the Westerlings will likely fall in her hands,winter has made any travel North too difficult.

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8 hours ago, dinner said:

I don't think he is dead (just gravely wounded) but even if he is then when he is raised he will be free of the night's watch, will have a willing army, and be in a position to really influence events in the north.

How is Jon released from his vows if he doesn't die?  

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On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 0:37 PM, bemused said:

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure it would be so different (.. maybe it would...).. I mean, as I understand it, Beric didn't perform any magic, himself.. just passed on what Thoros had breathed into him. It still came from Thoros originally.

ETA: Regarding the OP.. I don't think Jon will need any resurrecting. I believe his "assassination" (as seen through his own POV) is written in a way to be pretty deceptive. So I don't think there will be an Unjon to meet Uncat..and if Cat was so set against Jon while she was alive, I would think LSH would be even moreso.

But Beric did perform magic--his blood set his sword afire.  I wonder if this isn't a nod to Lightbringer, but it was magic.   After all, his flaming sword was hot. 

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

But Beric did perform magic--his blood set his sword afire.  I wonder if this isn't a nod to Lightbringer, but it was magic.   After all, his flaming sword was hot. 

I'm not sure... I mean, he recited no spell or prayer, did he.. (as far as I recall). He wasn't a priest or a magic user beforehand. So I think it still originates from Thoros.(Thoros leads the prayer before Beric's duel with the hound.) The magic is in his "blood", but what is his blood, exactly? It isn't like normal human blood.  He eats nothing, but takes wine occasionally. When Clegane kills him .. "The blood came rushing out in a hot black gush."

It's very connected to the mystery surrounding Mel who also doesn't eat but takes a bit of water from time to time.. I think the liquid may keep them from drying out from their inner heat ..??

Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. 

One difference with Mel is that she is both a priestess and a magic user.. but she may not be any more alive that Beric or UnCat.. even she might not survive giving the kiss.

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13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How is Jon released from his vows if he doesn't die?  

It is assumed that Jon's heart would stop and he would stop breathing long enough to be confirmed by the brothers of Night's Watch that he is dead and "his watch had ended" and then the revival would take place thus freeing him from his vows

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1 hour ago, Masha said:

It is assumed that Jon's heart would stop and he would stop breathing long enough to be confirmed by the brothers of Night's Watch that he is dead and "his watch had ended" and then the revival would take place thus freeing him from his vows

GRRM has said that a precedent exists for releasing a man from a binding oath (KG orNW) but that it has rarely been used.  

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

 And from ASoS, when Robb and Cat are diagreeing over Robb's succession...

He is set on this. Catelyn knew stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”
“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

This means Robb knows there is a precedent, but (of course) legitimizing a bastard is much more common. Robb thought, at that time, offering 100 men in exchange for Jon might do the trick. I don't know if he was right or wrong, but even if Jon was released from all the superfluous (IMO) parts of the oath (wives, children, etc.etc.) I'm sure he'd always feel a responsibility to protect the realms of men, anyway.

So I think there will be some perfectly logical way to release him that doesn't involve a loophole that requires him to die, first. If he was resurrected, it would mean coming back as less than what he was. If he's not dead, through his bond with Ghost, or his wolf blood suddenly asserting itself, he will be  more than what he was, but still fully human.

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10 hours ago, Masha said:

It is assumed that Jon's heart would stop and he would stop breathing long enough to be confirmed by the brothers of Night's Watch that he is dead and "his watch had ended" and then the revival would take place thus freeing him from his vows

That would make Jon dead.   Perhaps my wording was off.  dinner opened with " I don't think he is dead (just gravely wounded)"--that is the part I was speaking to.   He's either dead or not.  In your scenario he would have to be dead.   Unless you see this happening within a short span of minutes (3 or 4, but no more than that) following the stabbing?  Am I following you correctly in that Jon only has to be proclaimed dead and a brother has to speak "his watch has ended" for him to be released from his vows.   I get the revival happening afterward as the actual release, but your statement leads me to think that the NW has to proclaim or verify his death and that matters in the process.  

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8 hours ago, bemused said:

GRRM has said that a precedent exists for releasing a man from a binding oath (KG orNW) but that it has rarely been used.  

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

 And from ASoS, when Robb and Cat are diagreeing over Robb's succession...

He is set on this. Catelyn knew stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”
“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

This means Robb knows there is a precedent, but (of course) legitimizing a bastard is much more common. Robb thought, at that time, offering 100 men in exchange for Jon might do the trick. I don't know if he was right or wrong, but even if Jon was released from all the superfluous (IMO) parts of the oath (wives, children, etc.etc.) I'm sure he'd always feel a responsibility to protect the realms of men, anyway.

So I think there will be some perfectly logical way to release him that doesn't involve a loophole that requires him to die, first. If he was resurrected, it would mean coming back as less than what he was. If he's not dead, through his bond with Ghost, or his wolf blood suddenly asserting itself, he will be  more than what he was, but still fully human.

I read your link and it's confirmed in classic ambiguous GRRM fashion.   This talk of a perfectly logical way to release him has piqued my interest.   Any idea how this might occur?   If the troops assembled at Winterfell are any real indication, there aren't 100 men of fighting age left to trade.   A faction of the NW has been trying to get rid of Jon since he arrived.  Any chance they can just boot him out since he hasn't actually deserted?   In truth, the NW was the best place for Jon to learn about protecting the realm while gaining experience with separatist ideals.  He's already taken huge steps to unify the NW.  I've been over the NW vows and can't find anything other than "death" as an out.   Maybe you've spotted something else with potential?  If Jon's wolf blood is up and he just tells them they're all a bunch of idiots with no idea what they are protecting or fighting for and has enough support for these ideas, can he just proclaim the NW fraudulent or derelict in duty and walk away with the masses?    

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Sure thing! I always tought that too, since last Jon Chapter, of course,  and i think there is a great chance of this really happening in WoW, but i think there's a chance that other character do this instead of LSH, like Melisandre or Thoros of Myr, or i am i just tripping?

Also, do you people think Melisandre will stay and help (or corrupt) Jon, or is she going to flee immediately?

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I've been wondering about this for years. LSH character ONLY makes sense if she plays a role in Jon's future. 

What I don't see anyone pointing out is how easy it is going to be right now for her to find out. She is about to force Brienne and Jamie to fight, but what if Howland Reed shows up? She is in the Reech. He has the missive legitimizing Jon. He will want to come out and declare who Jon really is. Jamie LOVED Rheagar. He did NOT want to betray the Targareyens. He did it to save the innocent people in the city. Not to save his house. He did not want to kill his father, but had it come to just that, I think he would have, but it was really about the common people that the Mad King was going to Burn Alive. What if the truth comes out, just to the this group of people? They rush North, where LSH forces Jamie to take the vows of the Nights Watch, because no matter what, he will never be forgiven for his part in Bran's injury. He becomes their new one handed leader (okay, that's completely me just being hopeful) and they save Jon. Jon knows who he is. He fights the Boltons as "KING IN THE NORTH" because his brother wished it. At this point Faegon has crushed Kings Landing and Dany is on her way home. She gets there, sorts out Faegon and heads for the North (with the initial intent of destroying Jon) then she finds out who he is. They fight the walkers. The wall goes down... blah blah blah.... 

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