Masha Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 14 hours ago, Curled Finger said: That would make Jon dead. Perhaps my wording was off. dinner opened with " I don't think he is dead (just gravely wounded)"--that is the part I was speaking to. He's either dead or not. In your scenario he would have to be dead. Unless you see this happening within a short span of minutes (3 or 4, but no more than that) following the stabbing? Am I following you correctly in that Jon only has to be proclaimed dead and a brother has to speak "his watch has ended" for him to be released from his vows. I get the revival happening afterward as the actual release, but your statement leads me to think that the NW has to proclaim or verify his death and that matters in the process. Yes, in my scenario he is dead, then somehow revived. I did not notice the previous quote you are alluding to. And yes, for Jon to be released from his NW vows and be accepted by Northmen as well as other peoples of Westeros, he has to be confirmed as have been released from his vows by a confirmed NW member. Even if it is someone like Thorne screaming that he is a Warg, a curse and a wight and "real" Jon Snow died and no longer member of NW. He cannot just be dead for 1 minute then revived and then considered himself to be released from his vows, even if NW had betrayed him. Its not enough for Jon to consider himself released from his vows, the rest of characters must consider it too - even his detractors and enemies, for him to legitimately operate outside of NW. 23 hours ago, bemused said: GRRM has said that a precedent exists for releasing a man from a binding oath (KG orNW) but that it has rarely been used. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath And from ASoS, when Robb and Cat are diagreeing over Robb's succession... He is set on this. Catelyn knew stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.” “Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.” This means Robb knows there is a precedent, but (of course) legitimizing a bastard is much more common. Robb thought, at that time, offering 100 men in exchange for Jon might do the trick. I don't know if he was right or wrong, but even if Jon was released from all the superfluous (IMO) parts of the oath (wives, children, etc.etc.) I'm sure he'd always feel a responsibility to protect the realms of men, anyway. So I think there will be some perfectly logical way to release him that doesn't involve a loophole that requires him to die, first. If he was resurrected, it would mean coming back as less than what he was. If he's not dead, through his bond with Ghost, or his wolf blood suddenly asserting itself, he will be more than what he was, but still fully human. Frankly speaking, that precedent has not been mentioned to or alluded to very clearly or noticeably. That quote of GRRM is very unclear, if there is a precedent for a man to be HONORABLY released from his NW vows and be considered not a NW traitor and such, its not being mentioned at all in ANY of the books. The conversation with Robb for me means that he says that there is an actual precedent to legitimize a bastard to inherit - very few but existant, which is more than he can say about existing precedent for releasing a man from his NW vows because such thing never happened before. And Catelyn is rightfully skeptical that it could happen. If there is such precedent, its probably shady and weak and I don't think it will be used for Jon. The only thing I am thinking of that could release Jon from NW vows honorably other than his actual confirmed death, is public declaration and confirmation of his identity as Targaryen, which means his vows taken as a "Jon Snow" are not valid anymore in public opinion. But since I doubt that his identity as Targaryen would ever be revealed other than to readers and couple of characters, this would not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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