Kalbear Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Sci, you're making the error we used to. Why is it that the person who sees things like God does sees these horrible things exactly like the scriptures? This is akin to asking why you see blue skies just like a painting of blue skies has. These aren't imagined events. They are in our world, but in earwa these are observed events. The reason these look the same is because they are objective viewpoints - how God sees things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Sci, you're making the error we used to. Why is it that the person who sees things like God does sees these horrible things exactly like the scriptures? This is akin to asking why you see blue skies just like a painting of blue skies has. These aren't imagined events. They are in our world, but in earwa these are observed events. The reason these look the same is because they are objective viewpoints - how God sees things. You know I just had a thought. This objective meaning basically sums up sorcery on Earwa too. If everything has a set point that is why using the words devoid of human meaning Marks the Onta and therefore sorcery. It makes sense and you've made me see the light before. Its as I said, I'm in the middle of TTT and none of this is evident. It makes you question it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Kal - see Solo's post before yours. Is Yatwer really a goddess of birth, or does a spirit (or different spirits at different times) in the Outside find it useful wear the "Yatwer" mask? Is Kellhus definitively the messiah, just because he pulled a heart out of Serwe's chest? Does any reader think he's an incarnation of the God because he teleported which is a far more amazing feat - but one which we have some metaphysical grounding to explain. I mean if Bakker had said Mimara sees the soul being tortured in some novel way no one had thought of, so be it it's more likely the point is an objective depiction of Hell. But Bakker goes out of his way to specifically note Mimara sees a scene that she had seen before, and possibly been taught to believe is true. If I have a near death experience where I spend time in the Marvel Universe, who here would think the Marvel Universe exists and influences our entertainment media? Who here would think instead that my cultural immersion into the MU is what made me have that experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Ok, so a question. If Kellhus goal is to reach the Absolute and basically become the God, will be have a ability to change these set objective meanings? Or is this a law of the Universe that is untouchable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Yeah, but WHICH Marvel Universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 So if it's what Sci just said, Bakker is goading us, just like the Inverse Fire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I just don't understand your argument at all, Sci - that because it was something other people described before that it's less likely to be true? Many other people have had the judging eye before this. Even more have seen or experienced the Outside. This isn't something that can't be verified independently. Provided you have the ability you can see things just the same way. Comparing it to made up stories is a false equivalence in earwa. These aren't false stories or opinion pieces. These are what people have observed. Now their interpretation of things can be wrong, or they could outright lie like the inchies did about the nonmen. But other things? Those are things people have seen and seen again. Their existence is not up for debate any more than lightning is. Damnation is a natural phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I agree damnation is real in the Bakkerverse, but that's separate from whether the Judging Eye is reliable. And I think you're assuming too much in thinking the Judging Eye's past holders shaped the Earwan's map of reality beyond the living world. As Bakker noted, while sorcerers have journeyed Outside what they found is confusing, I think he may have even said contradictory. So the actual objective values of things is up for grabs. One of the points made over and over - to the point we've wrung humor out of it - is people deceive themselves. People fill in what they don't know with what they know. My question has, even in the past, been why are the Inverse Fire and the Judging Eye immune from this evaluation? And most of the arguments I get are either aesthetics ("the story sucks if the Inverse fire is a goad") or based on Bakker's outside comments....which again are coy, open to interpretation, and I'd say it's possible Bakker changed his mind or just was describing the metaphysics as revealed so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Stupid noob haven't read the books in a while question: what exactly is the inverse fire again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: Stupid noob haven't read the books in a while question: what exactly is the inverse fire again? What exactly it is, is pure speculation. But, it's what the Inchoroi have looked at and seen their damnation. They use it to bring the Nonmen to their side. They see their damnation and join the Consult. False Sun, is a Atrocity Tale that will give you the best insight into the Inverse Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 What MSJ said. One of my big metaphysical questions is how the underlying reality works in such a way that the Inchies remain ignorant of their damnation until well past their technological Singularity moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 ricardo, i explained all of this in a brilliant post long ago. and here's an equally great colloquy even earlier at madness' place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Stupid noob haven't read the books in a while question: what exactly is the inverse fire again? It is not in the books. *** Belief does not make reality; "rule changes" make reality.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, lokisnow said: It is not in the books. *** Belief does not make reality; "rule changes" make reality.. Ok, so what's an example of something that can change the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 MSJ, addressed in yet another brilliant post ages back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I still think damnation is NOT real in Earwa, that there are gods and demons and shit but not damnation. So the whole Inchie / Consult sealing the world is a waste of time and whatnot. @Sci-2 I like the point about Odin / Moe / putting eyes out for knowledge. Wonder if it's an oedipal thing, Big Moe, the Big MF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 What MSJ said. One of my big metaphysical questions is how the underlying reality works in such a way that the Inchies remain ignorant of their damnation until well past their technological Singularity moment. Because they don't have any way of seeing it until it's well too late. The inchies are us after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Another points I was thinking about is how static religion is in earwa. No religion doubts the existence of the hundred gods. No religion doubts that damnation in some form exists. No religion doubts the existence of the Outside. And the religions themselves have only changed when a prophet comes along. There are no major reformations, no major schisms, no real changes in anything. And one reason this makes sense is that people can regularly interact with their gods and their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: Because they don't have any way of seeing it until it's well too late. The inchies are us after all. That doesn't answer the metaphysics question. Reality has to exist in such a way that any phenomena contradicting the Inchies scientific/moral progression/descent are easily dismissed UNTIL some scientific breakthrough, or game changing event, made the Inchies realize they were damned. Yet even if it was not their own super-science that alerted them to their damnation, it seems they were able to utilize this super-science to create the Inverse Fire...assuming, of course, that the IF genuinely gives glimpses into Hell. 56 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Another points I was thinking about is how static religion is in earwa. No religion doubts the existence of the hundred gods. No religion doubts that damnation in some form exists. No religion doubts the existence of the Outside. And the religions themselves have only changed when a prophet comes along. There are no major reformations, no major schisms, no real changes in anything. And one reason this makes sense is that people can regularly interact with their gods and their religion. Hmmm...we haven't seen that much about the religious history. What people do in their hovels, their farms, etc isn't known to us. We have the broader strokes and general idea of gods given from the nobility and the priests. Take Hinduism for example. You might talk to a western born Hindu who tells you there's One God, Many Forms. But go to rural India and you might instead hear many gods, 1-3 gods are the top dogs. That's in a world like ours, where the reality of gods is very much in question. Things get even more complicated when the Outsiders realize how useful it is to use the gods as masks. Any spirit that has dominion over war/violence can get offerings by temporarily providing stat boosts to the "Battle Celebrant". Heck you don't even have to boosts stats, just make some special effects. I would even contend that any reality that has actual Outsiders interacting in a kind of occult "levels of reality" way with the mortal realm is going move toward the stability of religion so long as the Outsiders need/desire worship and are rational agents. This would hold even if there is no damnation or the religions' claimed gods did not actually exist in the Outside. 1 hour ago, larrytheimp said: I still think damnation is NOT real in Earwa, that there are gods and demons and shit but not damnation. So the whole Inchie / Consult sealing the world is a waste of time and whatnot. @Sci-2 I like the point about Odin / Moe / putting eyes out for knowledge. Wonder if it's an oedipal thing, Big Moe, the Big MF? What makes you think damnation isn't real? Do you think all souls fall to Oblivion? Also, Big MF? Not sure what MF is? edit: Oh wait do you mean Mother Fucker, like Oedipus loses his eyes in Antigone right? But then concludes all is well at the end of the play IIRC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Quote The inchies are us after all. So to understand how the Inchoroi found out about the Hundred Gods and Damnation and Eärwa, etc... we should ask ourselves how we found out about all of this. We did by reading the books, of course. So the Inverse Fire is the Second Apocalypse series (or at least some version of it written on the Inchoroi planet). Which explains why The Unholy Consult is unpublishable: those who read it go mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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