Jump to content

Bakker XLIII - the prattle of unnumbered years


sologdin

Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, Hello World said:

So to understand how the Inchoroi found out about the Hundred Gods and Damnation and Eärwa, etc... we should ask ourselves how we found out about all of this. We did by reading the books, of course.

So the Inverse Fire is the Second Apocalypse series (or at least some version of it written on the Inchoroi planet). Which explains why The Unholy Consult is unpublishable: those who read it go mad.

Very nice!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

That doesn't answer the metaphysics question. Reality has to exist in such a way that any phenomena contradicting the Inchies scientific/moral progression/descent are easily dismissed UNTIL some scientific breakthrough, or game changing event, made the Inchies realize they were damned.

Yet even if it was not their own super-science that alerted them to their damnation, it seems they were able to utilize this super-science to create the Inverse Fire...assuming, of course, that the IF genuinely gives glimpses into Hell.

Like...the revelation that their world was not the only world and they determined how to go to other places, and found other worlds that could visit the Outside? Kind of like what Wutteat hints?

You assume the inverse fire was something they invented. It doesn't have to be, any more than their grafting of being the Few was something they invented. It could easily be that it was something that the telephone sanitizers simply found and adapted. And all of that assumes that the Inverse Fire is, ya know, not just some fucked up neuropsych program a hacker developed in a hackathon for Facebook. 

2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

 

Hmmm...we haven't seen that much about the religious history.

What people do in their hovels, their farms, etc isn't known to us. We have the broader strokes and general idea of gods given from the nobility and the priests.

Take Hinduism for example. You might talk to a western born Hindu who tells you there's One God, Many Forms. But go to rural India and you might instead hear many gods, 1-3 gods are the top dogs.

That's in a world like ours, where the reality of gods is very much in question. Things get even more complicated when the Outsiders realize how useful it is to use the gods as masks. Any spirit that has dominion over war/violence can get offerings by temporarily providing stat boosts to the "Battle Celebrant". Heck you don't even have to boosts stats, just make some special effects.

I would even contend that any reality that has actual Outsiders interacting in a kind of occult "levels of reality" way with the mortal realm is going move toward the stability of religion so long as the Outsiders need/desire worship and are rational agents. This would hold even if there is no damnation or the religions' claimed gods did not actually exist in the Outside.

 

But there's no indication that the Outsiders - whatever you're talking about here - uses anything as masks. The various 100 gods are pretty constant throughout history; for the last 2000 years, they haven't changed at all, and people know exactly who they are and what they're about. And as we saw in TAE and in that short story, the gods do indeed intercede all the friggin time. 

We don't know about rural areas or whatnot, but we do know that there haven't been schisms. We know that Inrithism has remained a constant since Inri showed up and even then Inri didn't contradict the existence of the Gods or the Eannan myths - he just adapted them and added more clarity. Same with Fane - he denies that the 100 are gods and calls them demons, but their existence? Isn't remotely in doubt. 

I guess it's possible that you're right, Sci. That all the information about damnation, about gods interacting with people, about the objective morality of the universe, about the Judging Eye allowing its wielders to see as God sees and the parallel it has with the fanim being able to speak with God's voice or the Few being able to create with God's tools - all of that could be bullshit. In which case I would ask - what replaces it? Subjective morality, something Bakker has ruled out explicitly? Moe being totally right and the Outside just being a bunch of alien asshats fucking with people because reasons, and the story is a very traditional one about how Science is awesome? I'm willing to consider other theories, but so far the problem with other theories is that  they don't fit the info we've had presented to us. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never said morality is subjective in the Bakkerverse.

And I'm not 100% denying there are gods in the Outside, I'm just noting that it wouldn't be that hard for spirits to reach an accord where they say, "Hey it's my turn to pretend to be Yatwer this go around. You got next offerings from these dumb meat sacks."

Remember Kellhus claims that what he saw in the Outside was God broken into a million warring pieces. The Nonman reply is that's why the worship the spaces between the gods.

So is there really a huge distinction between 100 "gods" and all the Ciphrang population?

That said, good call on the Inchies conquering other worlds that had a different relationship to the Outside, and the possibility of the Inverse Fire being an artifact the Inchies merely procured - excellent possibilities. It makes one wonder why they came to think 144,000 is a magic number...heh maybe Callan is right about it all being a simulation and it's like a literal magic number.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fanim don't distinguish between the named and the unnamed ciphrang - but they do note that the named ones exist. Their identity is still solid. Dunno why it matters though.

As to the conversation Kellhus has with the nonmen, that's entirely theater. Kellhus knows that they aren't damned and that the tusk is a lie. The nonmen know that too, especially if they're the ones that are in league with the consult. It's entirely there to assuage the nonmen. What Kellhus says about the Outside there is at best serving his immediate interests. He would not tell the nonmen something they would suspect makes him different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He knows they aren't damned for being False Men. Whether they are damned or not is an open question. If they are working with the Consult it's likely they at least think they are damned and walking into Oblivion is not going to cut it.

What do you think Kellhus saw in the Outside? Something other than "the God broken into a million warring pieces"? Do you think he saw something different, but lied to the Nonman to better manipulate Isterbernith (sp?)

There's no definitive proof that there are literally 100 gods chilling in the Outside in their own Heavens, or that these 100 gods actually acted in the way the scriptures indicate. 

As such there's no definitive reason to think Mimara's Judging Eye sees the true objective value of men, women, snakes, whatever. I would argue that the scene where she sees the soul will be tortured in the way depicted in past myth is a possible signal that the JE, like every other eye in the book, has its vision colored by its owner's preconceptions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I first want to apologize for my post in the (now locked thread), it was hasty and I was frustrated.  Anyway, on to this thread.

Quote

Not buried, not hidden, but writ like another colour or texture across the hide of everything. The way good men shine brighter than good women. Or how serpents glow holy, while pigs seem to wallow in polluting shadow. The world is unequal in the eyes of the God—she understands this with intimate profundity. Masters over slaves, men over women, lions over crows: At every turn, the scriptures enumerate the rank of things. But for terrifying moments, the merest of heartbeats, it is unequal in her eyes as well.

This quote is certainly curious, while seeming straight-forward, I think the debate proves it really isn't.  I've (and I'm sure I was preceded in this by someone smarter and with greater reading comprehension than me) floated something along the lines of the Outside (and the Gods) being bi-directional in influence.  That is, living things with souls believe and this changes the Outside, creating, nurturing, and fostering Gods, when Gods in turn influence the Inside (for lack of a better term).  This is a postive-feedback loop, which could explain why faith is so static in Earwa, until an agent (read: prophet) breaks the loop with a new interpretation.  Indeed, I would take the position that Fane, for example, essentially created the Solitary God, via the Water.  Now, the Water is dispensed by the Solitary God.

In a similar way, the ontology of Earwa (i.e. what the quote above talks about) is a scriptural construct.  I don't believe that women are objectively inferior in Earwa.  It's that women are inferior in what Earwa has been constructed to be, via scripture.  Of course, our meta-knowledge gives us a hint, in the fact that Scott told us that the Tusk contains lies.  He was talking about the additions by the Inchoroi, but that doesn't mean that the rest in inherently true.  No more so that scripture in the real world here that speak to women being inferior to men.  Like @themerchant alluded to, it can all just be viramsata, except when it comes to the Outside what starts as a lie could quickly become truth.

10 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

He knows they aren't damned for being False Men. Whether they are damned or not is an open question. If they are working with the Consult it's likely they at least think they are damned and walking into Oblivion is not going to cut it.

What do you think Kellhus saw in the Outside? Something other than "the God broken into a million warring pieces"? Do you think he saw something different, but lied to the Nonman to better manipulate Isterbernith (sp?)

There's no definitive proof that there are literally 100 gods chilling in the Outside in their own Heavens, or that these 100 gods actually acted in the way the scriptures indicate. 

As such there's no definitive reason to think Mimara's Judging Eye sees the true objective value of men, women, snakes, whatever. I would argue that the scene where she sees the soul will be tortured in the way depicted in past myth is a possible signal that the JE, like every other eye in the book, has its vision colored by its owner's preconceptions.

I disagree that the Nonmen aren't damned for being False Men.  In fact, I recently (and again, no doubt someone smarter than me already floated this idea) brought up the idea that by adding the "False Man" clause into the Tusk, the Inchoroi knowingly damned all Nonmen, a priori.  The Nonman worship system, pre-Fall, as to court Oblivion, by "hiding their voices" and slipping past the Gods, thereby avoiding damnation (or redemption) might have failed after.  The Tusk in the hands of the faster reproducing, more populace Men invalidated that, because where were probably less scrutiny from the Outside before Men put an eye on them.  In other words, hiding was more viable when the Gods that damned them a priori were less powerful.  Tusk in hand, out-breeding the Nonmen, Men made the whole system of Oblivion searching invalid. 

While I agree that the meeting with the Nonman envoy is theater, I would take Kellhus' statement as him acknowledging that he knows that the scriptural damnation is a lie he can undo.  Then again, this interpretation is pretty self-serving, in that it pats me on the back for knowledge gained outside the books.  Again, it could easily be me seeing what I "want" to see, so it could certainly be bullshit.

Alright, I'll let you guys get back to it, this post is long enough already (and possibly not lucid).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Hello World said:

So to understand how the Inchoroi found out about the Hundred Gods and Damnation and Eärwa, etc... we should ask ourselves how we found out about all of this. We did by reading the books, of course.

So the Inverse Fire is the Second Apocalypse series (or at least some version of it written on the Inchoroi planet). Which explains why The Unholy Consult is unpublishable: those who read it go mad.

So Bakker is our King in Yellow, eh?

On the subject of the Inverse Fire, I imagine it as being discovered through a device of the Techne much like a Chorae, except that whereas in my view a Chorae is an opening onto the Objectivity of the God, this device opens a hole in the apparent to reveal damnation. It is much like the Judging Eye in other words.

An additional thought: having recently read Spinoza's Ethics, perhaps the God is much like the God of Spinoza, i.e. an all-determining ground of Being coterminous with nature. The Gods are mere modes, or even perhaps affects of the God, which explains how they can act in ways which appear contrary to the nature of the God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

He knows they aren't damned for being False Men. Whether they are damned or not is an open question. If they are working with the Consult it's likely they at least think they are damned and walking into Oblivion is not going to cut it.

What do you think Kellhus saw in the Outside? Something other than "the God broken into a million warring pieces"? Do you think he saw something different, but lied to the Nonman to better manipulate Isterbernith (sp?)

There's no definitive proof that there are literally 100 gods chilling in the Outside in their own Heavens, or that these 100 gods actually acted in the way the scriptures indicate. 

As such there's no definitive reason to think Mimara's Judging Eye sees the true objective value of men, women, snakes, whatever. I would argue that the scene where she sees the soul will be tortured in the way depicted in past myth is a possible signal that the JE, like every other eye in the book, has its vision colored by its owner's preconceptions.

I don't really care if they're gods or not. It's pretty clear that the Gods did act as it was stated in  the scriptures because we keep seeing them do that too. Some of it might be hearsay, some playing things up, but there are an absurd amount of eyewitness accounts to the gods doing various things. Even Meppa knows about the White Luck and believes it - and believes it to be very dangerous and real. 

The definitive reason to believe that Mimara's eye sees the objective value of everything is that it's stated in the books - by Akka, by Mimara. It's certainly possible that she's not seeing the objective value, though apparently her and a whole lot of other people see things exactly the same way for some reason, and have done so for a few millenia now. Heck, even the Nonmen don't argue these points and don't see things differently; they know about the Outside and damnation, understand that they need to avoid it and the dangers of it. Really, you're arguing another aspect of philosophy - epistemology - that Bakker is pretty hardcore for, what with the BBT and the way he loves the philosophy of science. Mimara's interpretation might not be valid, but why doubt that this is truly what she's experiencing? And if you doubt that, why aren't you doubting everything else equally? Why not doubt that the cants can do anything? Why not doubt that dragons even exist, and what Cleric and Akka saw wasn't a dragon but just some projection based on the stories they'd read and seen? That is a way to go, I suppose, but it's not a very satisfying one.

The lesson Bakker continues to try and teach is to separate the observable data from the meaning. I think it's reasonable to conclude that she looks at something and calls it by a damnation that she's taught, and therefore her culture is coloring what it is - but I don't think it's at all reasonable to conclude that she isn't actually seeing the thing at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

 

What makes you think damnation isn't real? Do you think all souls fall to Oblivion?

Also, Big MF? Not sure what MF is?

edit: Oh wait do you mean Mother Fucker, like Oedipus loses his eyes in Antigone right? But then concludes all is well at the end of the play IIRC?

I think it's the big red herring in the series.  We're supposed to believe that the Inchies and the Consult are both assured of damnation and yet while the Mandate stoically bear it the Consult seek to prevent it.  Plus if I cherry pick some of Bakker's quotes, we have a 'metaphysical whodunnit' that we likely won't get an answer to.  

Also, what do we have in the text to support damnation being real?  Mostly Mimara's JE experiences, which I think certainly have a dubious component to them.  

Achamian and Malowebi, who seem to be the closest Bakker avatars in the book, seem to be big fans of Ajencian doubt, so I'm going to run with that and say we should doubt the entire premise of conflict between all the major factions in the book.  The irony of the nonmen is that they seek oblivion to escape damnation, when really they were going to get oblivion the entire time.  

As far as the Cish / Oedipus stuff goes I was just trying to get goofy with the multitude of literary allusions in the series.  I love how it's loaded with Tolkien, Herbert, and McCarthy, and the Moe / Oedipus just kind of worked with the blindness/son killing and replacing the former king motif.  And in the interest of nitpicking, I think he puts his eyes out in Oedipus Rex not Antigone.

 

Good to see you around again!

 

\ps I guess the whole Wight / Balrog scene with hell leaking in is also a fly in the "no damnation" ointment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

 

I think it's the big red herring in the series.  We're supposed to believe that the Inchies and the Consult are both assured of damnation and yet while the Mandate stoically bear it the Consult seek to prevent it.  Plus if I cherry pick some of Bakker's quotes, we have a 'metaphysical whodunnit' that we likely won't get an answer to.  

Also, what do we have in the text to support damnation being real?  Mostly Mimara's JE experiences, which I think certainly have a dubious component to them.  

Achamian and Malowebi, who seem to be the closest Bakker avatars in the book, seem to be big fans of Ajencian doubt, so I'm going to run with that and say we should doubt the entire premise of conflict between all the major factions in the book.  The irony of the nonmen is that they seek oblivion to escape damnation, when really they were going to get oblivion the entire time.  

 

So let's go with this then. What would be the point of the series? What is the reveal if there is nothing but oblivion after death? Where do the souls that power the things like the Wathi doll or the door lin the Sauglish library come from? Where do Ciphrang come from, and why do they think that they can also torture things? Where does the White Luck come from, or Psatma's power? How does fanimry work? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ Hello World - I think the issue with feedback loops is if this were possible the Inchies would've tried to influence the feedback loop to get themselves out damnation rather than to damn the Nonmen. They wanted the Nonmen to be annihilated in the material world, whether the Nonman are saved or damned is superfluous to their goal to escape damnation themselves.

@ Kal - I don't think you're correct on where my observation of Mimara's bias leads. The Cants are real because they do something to the objective world. Meanwhile we've no ordering of what comes first - the visions of the JE or the cultural beliefs on the Three Seas.

And the gods don't seem to be acting as they do in Scripture, they aren't walking the Earth via avatars telling people to plunge their faces into fire. Remember also that this unity of religion was due, at least in part, to the manipulations of the Inchies. Yet even Psatma mocks Inri Sejenus, so it seems not everyone is all that enamored of the Tusk.

Honestly I don't think my point is all that controversial? In this world how many of us agnostics/atheists would accept visions of religions permeating our cultural were definitively real?

@ Larry - Ah, so MF was Motherfucker. Lol.

I've doubted damnation in the past, but as you note the Wight/Balrog scene was persuasive. I actually doubt Redemption for anyone, though apparently Bakker has suggest it as an option in Earwa, that the Zeum aren't wrong about being able to sneak in to paradise.

In the books however it's hardly clear, given the debate between Psatma & Meppa.

Also, thanks for the warm welcome back!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

@ Kal - I don't think you're correct on where my observation of Mimara's bias leads. The Cants are real because they do something to the objective world. 

So does her power. We're not sure what it did, but she completely removed the Outside influence from the world when dispelling the loose seal wight guy. She may have been able to actually remove the damnation from someone via forgiveness - the damnation she sees. 

And you think the Cants do something real to the outside world - but how do you know it's the Cants? Couldn't it be that everyone's seeing what they expect to see because they've read about it? When a dragon's head manifests, why do observers think that it looks like a dragon's head? Heck, why do you think they see that and it isn't their brains feverishly trying to interpret multidimensional physics of the Old Gods in a way that doesn't make them go insane? 

Quote

And the gods don't seem to be acting as they do in Scripture, they aren't walking the Earth via avatars telling people to plunge their faces into fire. Remember also that this unity of religion was due, at least in part, to the manipulations of the Inchies. Yet even Psatma mocks Inri Sejenus, so it seems not everyone is all that enamored of the Tusk.

The Tusk didn't unite the religions; it was basically a really cool present, but it was given after the tribes were united and Inri had come along. Inri and Fane united them. The gods certainly are acting like they are in their scriptures; we have a story where Gilgaol comes and uses a person, we have several people sacrificing themselves for Yatwer as she guided them to, we have potentially a whole bunch of other examples depending on how literal you take the text (as Lokisnow has pointed out). Not everyone is enamored of the Tusk, but no one doubts that Gilgaol or Yatwer exist. Not even Kellhus.

Quote

Honestly I don't think my point is all that controversial? In this world how many of us agnostics/atheists would accept visions of religions permeating our cultural were definitively real?

I'm not sure I parse this, but it's controversial to me because you're assuming a basis of our world for a world that was intentionally made different in the way you're objecting to. Yeah, if people saw visions in our world that matched precisely what they expected we'd be skeptical. We'd also be skeptical of reports that an angry loose seal of hell started rampaging around old mines that had slaves in them. We'd also be skeptical that people could sing and cause massive property damage; only David Bowie could do that. Another way to say it is this: why are you skeptical of someone's power that has been established in the world with prior people, has been shown from their first-person perspective as what they see, and has been shown to have pretty amazing side effects - but not skeptical of the entire rest of the series? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mimara banishing Hell doesn't make her beliefs about objective morality correct. Many characters have done seemingly miraculous things in the series. 

Does Kellhus' accurate precognition, or for that matter pulling Serwe's heart from her chest make him correct about himself being the Messiah?

Quote

She may have been able to actually remove the damnation from someone via forgiveness - the damnation she sees. 

No.

Quote

And you think the Cants do something real to the outside world - but how do you know it's the Cants? Couldn't it be that everyone's seeing what they expect to see because they've read about it? When a dragon's head manifests, why do observers think that it looks like a dragon's head? Heck, why do you think they see that and it isn't their brains feverishly trying to interpret multidimensional physics of the Old Gods in a way that doesn't make them go insane? 

None of this changes the efficacy of the Cants, and there's no in-text reason or commentary from Bakker to make us doubt this.

As such it differs from my argument by a considerable distance.

Quote

The Tusk didn't unite the religions; it was basically a really cool present, but it was given after the tribes were united and Inri had come along. 

Source?

Quote

Another way to say it is this: why are you skeptical of someone's power that has been established in the world with prior people, has been shown from their first-person perspective as what they see, and has been shown to have pretty amazing side effects - but not skeptical of the entire rest of the series? 

But I am skeptical that anyone's overt efficacy makes their metaphysical views accurate. In fact I think a variety of posters have suggested Kellhus' miracle(s?) and insights into time-space don't necessarily make him right about the nature of the Earwa's metaphysics.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Mimara banishing Hell doesn't make her beliefs about objective morality correct. Many characters have done seemingly miraculous things in the series. 

Does Kellhus' accurate precognition, or for that matter pulling Serwe's heart from her chest make him correct about himself being the Messiah?

Maybe? It's hard to say, honestly, if Kellhus is correct because he can perform miracles. That certainly is a reasonable interpretation, and if we had a better idea of what the fuck happened maybe we could say. 

As to Mimara and her beliefs - it doesn't make it true, but it makes it more likely. It isn't just her seeing shit and having visions; her abilities are different and distinct from the Few, she can do things others cannot, and they are consistent across her spectrum. Her being able to see objective morality and her being able to remove the stain on the objective morality make thematic sense. 

34 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

No.

None of this changes the efficacy of the Cants, and there's no in-text reason or commentary from Bakker to make us doubt this.

There's no in-text reason or commentary from Bakker to make us doubt Mimara, either, and plenty to make us believe it's precisely as he's stated. And the efficacy isn't what we're talking about, right? We're talking about the metaphysics - about whether damnation exists (and it exists as Mimara has seen it), whether objective morality exists and can be changed, etc. 

34 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

 

Source?

But I am skeptical that anyone's overt efficacy makes their metaphysical views accurate. In fact I think a variety of posters have suggested Kellhus' miracle(s?) and insights into time-space don't necessarily make him right about the nature of the Earwa's metaphysics.

 

But it isn't just the efficacy. It's the efficacy along with other evidence. It isn't Mimara's interpretation, after all. It's ours. She still doesn't understand what she did and doesn't even speak to it. So how is it her metaphysical views? 

By metaphysical views all you're talking about is what she's actually seen. This isn't an opinion like whether the blue sky is beautiful; this is an opinion like if the blue sky is blue. That's what you're doubting, and that's why it's weird. You don't doubt other people's actual witness accounts of what happened and what is seen. Do you doubt Sorweel seeing the face in the ground speak (just like Yatwer had been said to do)? Do you doubt Akka saw the dreams (or for that matter, Serwa)? Do you doubt the haloes existed? I'm fine with you claiming that they mean something else, but right now you appear to be claiming that they didn't happen at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Tusk didn't unite the religions; it was basically a really cool present, but it was given after the tribes were united and Inri had come along.

I think your trying to say, correct if I'm wrong, that the Tusk came after Inri? If so, that's wrong He reinterpreted it after the Inchies made alterations. Hell he could even be a damn pawn of the Inchies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

When does Mimara "remove the stain"?

When she expels the aquatic mammal from Cil-Aujus. Not sure what else to describe it as. If you think about her using the chorae to remove the influence of the Outside - even the Outside that brought with it its own referential frame - then what she's basically doing is getting rid of the mistake that is in the world that is least decided by subjective desire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

When she expels the aquatic mammal from Cil-Aujus. Not sure what else to describe it as. If you think about her using the chorae to remove the influence of the Outside - even the Outside that brought with it its own referential frame - then what she's basically doing is getting rid of the mistake that is in the world that is least decided by subjective desire.

Closing a topoi....is that really the same thing as removing the stain of damnation? Because it seems the Wight is still in Hell?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

When she expels the aquatic mammal from Cil-Aujus. Not sure what else to describe it as. If you think about her using the chorae to remove the influence of the Outside - even the Outside that brought with it its own referential frame - then what she's basically doing is getting rid of the mistake that is in the world that is least decided by subjective desire.

H., just had a really good post about this at SA. H compared Cil-Aujus and any Topoi to purgatory. So the seal isn't from the outside, it's more of a ghost stuck in the Topoi (purgatory). He elaborated more on why the chorae could therefore "hold off" the seal. I'll see if I can find it.

ETA: it didn't relate to the Chorae, but rather said it would explain why the seal had a "wordly visage". Instead of being demon or chiprang.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Sci-2 said:

Closing a topoi....is that really the same thing as removing the stain of damnation? Because it seems the Wight is still in Hell?

It's semantics. Whatever you want to say, honestly. Did she close the topoi so that the Outside didn't leak through, and with it carry signs of what would definitely be called damnation by the observers (but apparently heart eyes is not really damnation, more like an inconvenience or disability). The point isn't what you want to call it - the point is that whatever it is that she did, it goes very well with being able to see the judgment on the world. 

Quote

H., just had a really good post about this at SA. H compared Cil-Aujus and any Topoi to purgatory. So the seal isn't from the outside, it's more of a ghost stuck in the Topoi (purgatory). He elaborated more on why the chorae could therefore "hold off" the seal. I'll see if I can find it.

The chorae didn't hold off the seal, however. It wasn't a contradiction, and in the text they make it clear that because it has its own referential frame chorae won't cause any issue. That's sort of the really interesting thing that Mimara does. She doesn't use the chorae as its own thing; she uses the chorae as a...channel? Gateway? Dunno, but she uses it to essentially add more objective reality to the current area. A chorae by itself is useless in this regard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...