Bakker XLIII - the prattle of unnumbered years

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

6 hours ago, lokisnow said:

 

It's possible it's something extra terrestrial, but that's just me being crackpot. I think the cishaurim are either seswathas second foundation or are a construction of Titirga, who survived his fall.

Oh, I never seen this. I like that the Dunyain could be a second foundation. I'm all about Seswatha being behind much of the goings on. 

[.H.]

6 hours ago, lokisnow said:

It's possible it's something extra terrestrial, but that's just me being crackpot. I think the cishaurim are either seswathas second foundation or are a construction of Titirga, who survived his fall.

Why does he have to survive?  Maybe he died or got to whatever the hell is at the bottom of the Well and became a god.  His power-level seems conducive with him not just dying like a peasant.

Maybe he is the Solitatary God.  Maybe Meppa is Titirga reborn?

[Maithanet]

I always interpreted the "ancient foe" to be the Anasurimbor, and "the Dunyain" to be the new face of the Anasurimbor.  So I don't really see why that quote changes anything. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

6 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I always interpreted the "ancient foe" to be the Anasurimbor, and "the Dunyain" to be the new face of the Anasurimbor.  So I don't really see why that quote changes anything. 

Because you simply do not want to believe. Its what makes all things possible on Earwa, indomitable conviction.

ETA: :sarcasm:, if you wasn't sure. There is someone behind these events of the Anasurimbor's and these are the little clues. Celmomas didn't send the Dunyain to Ishual, someone did though.

[Kalbear]

Okay, that I can get a bit behind.

Let's follow that a little. We have Seswatha who apparently can see in the future in some way (lots of hints to that about Akka and the way his dreams work, as well as the notions of his prophecies). We know that he creates the Mandate. We also know that he's aware of Ishual given the stuff about Sauglish. The one part we don't know is how he would know about the Dunyain. Or, for that matter, why he would assume that the Dunyain would grow to become this philosophical terror. 

But let's assume that - either because he can see the future or knows that he wants to have something that is both magical (the Mandate) and mundane (the Dunyain) to fight in the future. So he sends the Dunyain to Ishual, where they free the last Anasurimbor from being raped and set out to destroy any information that contradicts their worldview while they get to breeding via Axolotl tanks. So Seswatha isn't responsible for creating the Dunyain, just guiding them to a place where they can grow and thrive, knowing that they are going to be necessary at the end of the world. 

That's not outside the realm of cheap reveals. We already know that the Dunyain 'accidentally' came across Ishual, and how improbable that is. And we already know that Seswatha knew about Ishual, and that's been a pretty big deal for the last two books. So...yeah, okay. What I don't get, though, is why Aurang would know that Seswatha is behind the Dunyain. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Right that Seswatha was the right-hand man of Celmommas. He was also the one to fight the No-God til the end. We also have the dream of him and Cel and the "seeds" bit. I actually do like the Titirga/Psukhe link also. Although, all we really have to go on that is No-Mark and both we're blind. Also, H. pointed out that he would "suffer no rivals" via False Sun, hence the Solitary God. 

[.H.]

Well, there is the Celmomas/Seswatha connection.  Seemingly, almost everything Celmomas did during the Apocalypse was spurred on by Seswatha.  Even making Ishual (which I don't believe he actually made, just converted to his own use) was because he started believing what Seswatha said about the coming Apocalypse.

Also, a possible connection is that Dûnyainic is the "successor" language to Kûniüric, the native tongue of both Seswatha and Celmomas.  It's very doubtful that Celmomas sent the Dûnyain to Ishual, since he was dead.  The only person alive who could have told them where it was would have been Seswatha.  Also, what a coincdence that the Celmomian Prophecy is relayed to us by, of course, Seswatha.  So, it just so happens that Seswatha delivers the Prophecy and happens to be the only living person to know where the Anasurimbor line is hidden?

Of course that line of thought is blown up if the broken map case is more than just some red-herring, or just a cheap way to avoid them having to open the damn thing up somehow.

All that being said, I'm still not sure I buy that Aurang has all this figured out.  It's probably as likely he is referring to the Anasurimbors as the ancient enemies than anything else.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I didn't mean exactly that Aurang has everything figured out. In my original post at SA I said that it was Bakker dropping hints. So Aurang doesn't have to have made a direct link. Yes, I'd agree with that he only makes a connection to Anasurimbor. But, Bakker doesn't strike me as the type to just say it straight out either. Its like Akka's dreams, everyone says they started changing in TAE. Not true, they slowly started changing from the very beginning of TDTCB when he seen his face in the mirror/water instead of Seswatha's. You have to dig deep with Bakker, and if anyone, you guys are the one who've taught me this. 

ETA: Akka's dreams. It's why I don't buy that Kellhus is manipulating him. I think that Akka is way more than a prophet of the past. He is Seswatha's direct link to these events.

[Hello World]

41 minutes ago, .H. said:

Well, there is the Celmomas/Seswatha connection.  Seemingly, almost everything Celmomas did during the Apocalypse was spurred on by Seswatha.  Even making Ishual (which I don't believe he actually made, just converted to his own use) was because he started believing what Seswatha said about the coming Apocalypse.

Nah. This would seem like the obvious conclusion on a shallow reading but the text actually points away from this as I’ve pointed out here before.

It’s been some time since I’ve thought about this but there are three I think very important dreams in TJE, in the first one Celmomas tells Seswatha about Ishuäl,

Quote

 

"I have built a place," the High-King said.

[...]

"What do you mean?"

[...]

The High-King moved a stone, a move that Seswatha had not foreseen, and the rules changed in the most disastrous way possible. What had been opportunity found itself twisted inside out, stamped into something as closed and as occluded as the future.

[...]

"I have built a place... a refuge..." Anasûrimbor Celmomas said. "A place where my line can outlive me."

[...]

"Where?"

 

The bit about Cel moving a stone is in the Benjuka game that they’re playing but to me it seems pretty obvious that Cel moving a stone here is an analogy to him building Ishuäl.

The second dream mentions the seeds and the fact that Nau-Cayûti becomes Celmomas’s foe later.

The third dream though is where I begin to think that Celmomas is playing some deeper game, either of his own planning or he’s being manipulated by some other agency (my guess is Cleric).

Quote

 

"Doom," it read, "should you find me broken."

"The inscription... What does it mean?"

"Keep it, old friend. Make it your deepest secret."

"These dreams you have been having... You must tell me more!"

 

If anything it seems to me that Celmomas is at least trying to fool Seswatha with all of this,

Quote

"You, Seswatha," the High-King said, returning his gaze to the plate. "You are the only one. The only one I trust."

If I were Seswatha my reaction is “yeah right...”

Quote

 

"Keep it, old friend. Make it your deepest secret."

[...]

"Keep it," Anasûrimbor Celmomas said. "Bury it in the Coffers."

 

As I’ve said before, this all makes little sense. Why is Celmomas telling this to Seswatha in the first place? He says that he has built Ishuäl so that his line might survive “in case the war goes wrong.” But if the war goes wrong, why on earth would want a map to your secret refuge in the fucking coffers of all places? That literally is the last thing you would want in that situation.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Well, the coffers was thought to be impenetrable. Here is another reading of might be happened there. Maybe Seswatha took the map out of the case and just put the case in the coffers. And gave the map to an ecstatic group known as the Dunyain. Is this also a shallow reading? There is a many options to what that conversation meant. Id say most of it is face value or what I mean to say is whatever Seswatha wants Akka to hear. That's what you have to remember is that it's a dream, a dream manipulated by Seswatha for Akka. These aren't flashbacks. 

[Hello World]

Quote

Well, the coffers was thought to be impenetrable.

By who? But even then I’m sure the Consult can find a way seeing as they broke into the Ark.

Quote

Here is another reading of might be happened there. Maybe Seswatha took the map out of the case and just put the case in the coffers. And gave the map to an ecstatic group known as the Dunyain. Is this also a shallow reading?

I’d say so... but that’s not really what I’m talking about.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Ok. Fair enough. Its not something I think, I was just saying there is different way to look at it, it doesn't mean it's a shallow reading of the text. A bit uppidity, no? And you think Cleric is who he entrusted himself to? Well Seswatha and Cleric were friends too. I'd say if anyone has a connection to Cleric it's Seswatha. Celmommas died early in the FA, I'd say the most important thing about him is his prophecy. 

[Hello World]

What I said was a shallow reading is the idea that can be paraphrased as “Sewatha is behind it all”. Which gets thrown around quite often, I even believed it myself at one point. Those dreams in TJE for example seem to contradict that.

Quote

Celmommas died early in the FA, I'd say the most important thing about him is his prophecy.

Speaking of the prophecy, Celmomas does say one other interesting thing,

Quote

"Some petition astrologers, soothsayers, false prophets in all their guises. Low men, mean men, who exchange words of comfort for gold. Me, I put my faith in stone, in iron, in blood, and in secrecy—secrecy above all!—for these things serve in all times. All times! The day words conquer the future is the day the dead begin to speak."

The way I read that last bit is: the day words conquer the future (the day a prophecy becomes true) is the day the dead begin to speak (something impossible). In other words, Celmomas thinks that prophecies are BS. So how does that factor into his Celmomian prophecy?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Well, I never thought it was important to him. Its important to the story. What I think is that he just so happened to speak the words or hell it's made up by Seswatha, who knows? Everything that is giving to us about Celmommas is through Akka's dreams. Why do you think that he would take precedence over the creator of those dreams? How does that fit into the Celmommas theory?

[Kalbear]

And which prophecy is false vs. true, per Aurang?

[Darth Richard II]

You guys are slipping, I can actually sort of follow the conversation.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

You guys are slipping, I can actually sort of follow the conversation.

And for you it is the forum that must be at fault. Why is it that the reader never looks at himself and says that they might be the ones reading it wrong? 

[sologdin]

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

The way I read that last bit is: the day words conquer the future (the day a prophecy becomes true) is the day the dead begin to speak (something impossible). In other words, Celmomas thinks that prophecies are BS. So how does that factor into his Celmomian prophecy?

or it'll turn into a zombie book and prophetics are true.

an aporetic prophecy is cool,  tres RSB.

[Darth Richard II]

Wait, what? I'm saying I normally can;t follow the conversation because you guys go super deep into philosophy and some weird theories and are way smarter than me. I was being complimentary.

[lokisnow]

Since quote is broken for mobil r devices, Kal said : "

What I don't get, though, is why Aurang would know that Seswatha is behind the Dunyain."

This comes after the who are the Dunya in scene, this aurang pov could also be indicating they've discovered and ruined ishual, hence how aurang knows what he now knows.