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Bakker XLIII - the prattle of unnumbered years


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Looking above to hello world's post recounting the celmomas dreams. Let us riff on celmomas playing a deeper game:

Put kellhus in celmomas place and assume that the high king was very good at manipulation even without being dunyain.

If it were kellhus, celmomas would have manipulated seswatha into sleeping with the high kings wife and siring nau cayuti with the intent to sacrifice NC to the Consult at a future date. In this, he plays a deep game, denying the consult the prize of an anasurimbor pilot for their no god carapace. The consult will think they have accursed hybrid genes piloting the no god, but instead they will have a FALSE SON a mere human pilot, doomed to perish before the no god can succeed in closing off the world.

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12 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Looking above to hello world's post recounting the celmomas dreams. Let us riff on celmomas playing a deeper game:

Put kellhus in celmomas place and assume that the high king was very good at manipulation even without being dunyain.

If it were kellhus, celmomas would have manipulated seswatha into sleeping with the high kings wife and siring nau cayuti with the intent to sacrifice NC to the Consult at a future date. In this, he plays a deep game, denying the consult the prize of an anasurimbor pilot for their no god carapace. The consult will think they have accursed hybrid genes piloting the no god, but instead they will have a FALSE SON a mere human pilot, doomed to perish before the no god can succeed in closing off the world.

Ok, now that's something I can get behind. Even adding the Celmommas prophecy to the dreams would make sense.

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9 hours ago, Hello World said:

The way I read that last bit is: the day words conquer the future (the day a prophecy becomes true) is the day the dead begin to speak (something impossible). In other words, Celmomas thinks that prophecies are BS. So how does that factor into his Celmomian prophecy?

Interestingly, the dead are speaking all the time these days. Through Seswatha's dreams. Also, Gin-Yursis, Wuttëat (technically dead, sustained by hell or something) and possibly more.  

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14 hours ago, Hello World said:

Nah. This would seem like the obvious conclusion on a shallow reading but the text actually points away from this as I’ve pointed out here before.

It’s been some time since I’ve thought about this but there are three I think very important dreams in TJE, in the first one Celmomas tells Seswatha about Ishuäl,

...

As I’ve said before, this all makes little sense. Why is Celmomas telling this to Seswatha in the first place? He says that he has built Ishuäl so that his line might survive “in case the war goes wrong.” But if the war goes wrong, why on earth would want a map to your secret refuge in the fucking coffers of all places? That literally is the last thing you would want in that situation.

Fair enough, shallow as it might be, it is still plausible.  In the end, as plausible as your alternative theory.  It's never been my claim to say I've figured anything out.  All I can do is point to what I feel are plausible alternative explanations.

As for why Celmomas would tell Seswatha, well, he made the place since he was convinced he needed a place for his line to hide (presumably upon his death).  So, why would he want Seswatha to know?  Well, Seswatha was already a surrogate father to Nau (whether or not it was really his son is only tangential here) so Celmomas is essentially passing stewardship of Ishuäl to Seswatha.  Indeed though, I am with you in that having a physical map seems rather bad for a secret hide-out.  The only way I can square it is with exactly what happened.  In other words, the map was a plant because someone who would have access to the Coffers in the future would need it.

13 hours ago, Hello World said:

The way I read that last bit is: the day words conquer the future (the day a prophecy becomes true) is the day the dead begin to speak (something impossible). In other words, Celmomas thinks that prophecies are BS. So how does that factor into his Celmomian prophecy?

I would read it a bit differently, your first part certainly, but "the day the dead begin to speak" is the reason for the first part.  I'm not sure my sentence ever makes sense, so let me try to rephrase it.  So, the day when prophecy can become true is the day when their dead voices can move men.  In other words, when people actually want believe the prophecy will be the day when they will have spoken true prophecy (their dead voices moving the living again).  It makes sense in my mind, but I doubt I am articulating it clearly here.

9 hours ago, Triskan said:

If Celmomas made Ishual his own but didn't build it, that makes me recall that it's likely a Nonman structure which in turn makes me raise the odds that it was the Consult rather than Kellhus that destroyed it.  Once they knew they needed to find the Dunyain they might have enlisted their Nonmen allies who might have had some recollection.

If Celmomas made it, why does it bare a name in Ihrimsû ("Exalted Grotto")?  Why does Kellhus remark at how the mansion at Kyudea looks so much like Ishual?  No, indeed, shallow as it might be again, I feel sure that Celmomas either was gifted the place by Nil-Giccas or someone, or found it after the Nonmen forgot about it.

In fact, I've gone into it before but there is an etemological connection from the word "grotto" to the English word crypt, via the Greek word kruptē.  That raises an interesting question of what the Thousand Thousand Halls really is, but perhaps a vast burial chamber for the Nonmen women who died during the Womb-Plague.

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Maybe Ishual was occupied by a isolationist nonman tribe and Celmomas had them all wiped out. They have been scratched out of history like the Dunyain wiped out the magical runes in Ishual. The crypts beneath Ishual actually have the slaughtered nonman tribe down below.

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16 minutes ago, unJon said:

Maybe Ishual was occupied by a isolationist nonman tribe and Celmomas had them all wiped out. They have been scratched out of history like the Dunyain wiped out the magical runes in Ishual. The crypts beneath Ishual actually have the slaughtered nonman tribe down below.

An interesting thought.  The name seems to imply to me, through it's similarity in naming structure to Ishterebinth (“Exalted Stronghold”) to imply a similar origin.  The fact that there were "sorcerers runes" on the wall in the first place is odd, but then again, we don't know enough about Injor-Niyas mansions to really draw a conclusion.  Yet, Kyudea and Cil-Aujas certainly didn't have them, so the fact that they were there could mean something was special about this location.  I even ventured to speculate once that the runes could even be Aporetic in nature, but that's just a wild, wild guess.

Also, the fact that the Thousand Thousand Halls are all dark could hide something about them.  Like that fact that each is a chamber of a vast crypt.  Then again, I am grasping at some really thin straws here.

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No, indeed, shallow as it might be again, I feel sure that Celmomas either was gifted the place by Nil-Giccas or someone, or found it after the Nonmen forgot about it.

Come on man... What I called shallow is you saying that everything Celmomas did during the Apocalypse and making Ishual was coz Seswatha. I agree with what you’re saying here. But perhaps I shallowly read your post. Very well, I won’t be using the word shallow again in this thread.

Quote

As for why Celmomas would tell Seswatha, well, he made the place since he was convinced he needed a place for his line to hide (presumably upon his death).  So, why would he want Seswatha to know?  Well, Seswatha was already a surrogate father to Nau (whether or not it was really his son is only tangential here) so Celmomas is essentially passing stewardship of Ishuäl to Seswatha.  Indeed though, I am with you in that having a physical map seems rather bad for a secret hide-out.  The only way I can square it is with exactly what happened.  In other words, the map was a plant because someone who would have access to the Coffers in the future would need it.

Seems pretty shallow if you ask me...

Another possible explanation (although I don’t like this one) is that there was no map in the Coffers to begin with. Kellhus wants Achamian in Ishuäl at some point. So he draws a fake/real map to the place, plants it in the Coffers and sends Achamian a bunch of fake dreams telling him to look for a map there.

Most likely everything Achamian did in TJE/WLW was telegraphed by Kellhus, who kept an eye on him from the very beginning through his slave Geraus (who’s been with him from the beginning). Everything Akka knew about the going ons of the outside word during those years basically came from him. IIRC, Achamian says that it was Geraus’s idea that he should hire the Skin-Eaters out of all the scalping companies, I would also think that Geraus planted the idea of hiring a scalping company in Akka’s head in the first place. And he was the one that went to the captain in the prologue and told him to accept Akka’s bs offer and not to harm Mimara when she comes.

Here is a short timeline what Kellhus did,

1. From the very beginning of Akka’s exile he keeps an eye on him through Geraus which he somehow Dunyainly got Achamian to hire.

2. He creates the whole Scalping thing for two reasons. So that the scalpers can clear the way for the Ordeal, and to create a way for Achamian to get to Ishuäl when he has to. The Skin-Eaters were probably his creation as well.

3. He conditions Akka to want to hire the SE through Geraus and sends him the fake dreams telling him about the map in Ishuäl which he drew.

4. He makes sure that Mimara goes to Achamian when he needs him to start his journey. Achamian remarks on this saying that it was Mimara’s arrival that made him leave before knowing the exact location of Ishuäl.

Among other things.

That raises an interesting question of what the Thousand Thousand Halls really is, but perhaps a vast burial chamber for the Nonmen women who died during the Womb-Plague.

+1

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4 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Come on man... What I called shallow is you saying that everything Celmomas did during the Apocalypse and making Ishual was coz Seswatha. I agree with what you’re saying here. But perhaps I shallowly read your post. Very well, I won’t be using the word shallow again in this thread.

Well, everything was probably an overstatement on my part, so I apologize.  But certainly, this quote seems to imply that Ishuäl was made due to Seswatha's influence:

"For the longest time," he said, "I refused to believe you. And now that I believe..."

...

"Nothing..." the High-King said with a release of old and weary air. "Just premonitions."

Seswatha studied him with new concern. "The premonitions of kings are never to be taken lightly. You know that much, old friend."

"Which is why I have built a ref—"

9 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Another possible explanation (although I don’t like this one) is that there was no map in the Coffers to begin with. Kellhus wants Achamian in Ishuäl at some point. So he draws a fake/real map to the place, plants it in the Coffers and sends Achamian a bunch of fake dreams telling him to look for a map there.

Most likely everything Achamian did in TJE/WLW was telegraphed by Kellhus, who kept an eye on him from the very beginning through his slave Geraus (who’s been with him from the beginning). Everything Akka knew about the going ons of the outside word during those years basically came from him. IIRC, Achamian says that it was Geraus’s idea that he should hire the Skin-Eaters out of all the scalping companies, I would also think that Geraus planted the idea of hiring a scalping company in Akka’s head in the first place. And he was the one that went to the captain in the prologue and told him to accept Akka’s bs offer and not to harm Mimara when she comes.

Here is a short timeline what Kellhus did,

1. From the very beginning of Akka’s exile he keeps an eye on him through Geraus which he somehow Dunyainly got Achamian to hire.

2. He creates the whole Scalping thing for two reasons. So that the scalpers can clear the way for the Ordeal, and to create a way for Achamian to get to Ishuäl when he has to. The Skin-Eaters were probably his creation as well.

3. He conditions Akka to want to hire the SE through Geraus and sends him the fake dreams telling him about the map in Ishuäl which he drew.

4. He makes sure that Mimara goes to Achamian when he needs him to start his journey. Achamian remarks on this saying that it was Mimara’s arrival that made him leave before knowing the exact location of Ishuäl.

Among other things.

Someone once hypothesized that Geraus is the nameless person who approaches the Skin-Eaters in the prologue of TJE (apologies if that was you and I am not remembering).  I find this perfectly plausible, basically for all the reasons you detail.

However, I am buying the map as real.  It requires Kellhus to fabricate the Dreams of it too, which I don't know I'll buy he can do.  Than again, maybe he can though and it's another way for him to keep tabs on Akka.

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I think the only plausible explanation for Akka's fucked up dreams not being from Kellhus is if Seswatha's heart has somehow decided that Kellhus is actually in league with the Consult and that Akka, as the only off-the-reservation-Seswatha's-heart-carrying-sorceror in existence, kind of his only shot at out maneuvering Kellhus.

But in that case you'd think Kellhus would just have Akka killed instead of sending him the bearer of TJE and the Glanton Gang to escort him to Ishual.

 

edit:  Basically I'm convinced that the dreams changing have to be coming from Kellhus.

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19 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I think the only plausible explanation for Akka's fucked up dreams not being from Kellhus is if Seswatha's heart has somehow decided that Kellhus is actually in league with the Consult and that Akka, as the only off-the-reservation-Seswatha's-heart-carrying-sorceror in existence, kind of his only shot at out maneuvering Kellhus.

But in that case you'd think Kellhus would just have Akka killed instead of sending him the bearer of TJE and the Glanton Gang to escort him to Ishual.

 

edit:  Basically I'm convinced that the dreams changing have to be coming from Kellhus.

Well, under these premises couldn't Kellhus reasoning for not just eliminating Akka be to draw out whatever Seswatha has planned?  Since he already knows to watch Akka, it seems fine to just let him do whatever rather than remove Akka and have to figure out who the Seswatha spirit will try to use next.

In other words, I think it's still plausible that Seswatha is guiding the Dreams and Kellhus knows this.  Just the enemy you know is better than the enemy you don't.  Plus, Akka is revealing Seswatha's plan to in plain sight of Kellhus through himself.  If there is no Akka, there is no view of Seswatha's plan.

I don't know, could be though...

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Well my theory was always that the Dunyain and Mandate are both tools to be used to the same end. I suggested before that Seswatha could be leading Akka to Ishual for something that might aid in helping Kellhus, not against him. Maybe, the Heron Spear, who knows.. I don't think Seswatha's dreams to Akka have in anyway made us think he's against Kellhus. That's the beauty, Akka is working toward the same goals as Kellhus and doesn't even know it. Remember the kneeling bit at the end of TTT? Oh, it will come into play again.

ETA: it is gonna be great reading when Akka and Kellhus meet again. Oh, and maybe there is nothing to aid Kellhus physically in Ishual. Maybe, revelation of Seswatha guiding the Dunyain. Maybe, Seswatha's need Akka to go to Ishtinbereth(sp?), and either help out the little Dunyain's or secure the Nonmen in the fight with the Consult. 

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The other possibility is that Kellhus isn't manipulating Akka because of akka but because of Mimara, who is his real secret weapon. Kellhus clearly pushed her to akka, after all. Akka thinks that it is because that would be the best way to manipulate him, but that's just as obviously self-serving bullshit. It makes a lot more sense if all of the great ordeal is to get the ring bearer - mimara - to mordor.

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1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

The other possibility is that Kellhus isn't manipulating Akka because of akka but because of Mimara, who is his real secret weapon. Kellhus clearly pushed her to akka, after all. Akka thinks that it is because that would be the best way to manipulate him, but that's just as obviously self-serving bullshit. It makes a lot more sense if all of the great ordeal is to get the ring bearer - mimara - to mordor.

Yeah, although the text states it's wee Kel that pushes Mimara away, i also believe Big Kel has wee Kel in his back pocket..After all he reveals some talks with his father when talking to the paralyzed soldier. So the genesis of the idea probably came from Kellhus. Sam and Frodo sneaking in the back way while the free world marches to the main gates.

This set of events are the ones i vote I lean towards.

 

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17 minutes ago, themerchant said:

Yeah, although the text states it's wee Kel that pushes Mimara away, i also believe Big Kel has wee Kel in his back pocket..After all he reveals some talks with his father when talking to the paralyzed soldier. So the genesis of the idea probably came from Kellhus. Sam and Frodo sneaking in the back way while the free world marches to the main gates.

This set of events are the ones i vote I lean towards.

 

I hope this is the case. Color me impressed if it is. I cannot think of another author, outside of Gene Wolf, who puts that kind of depth of thought into his work. And with Gene Wolf it's a different sort of sophistication, which makes Bakker really one of a kind.

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Yeah, although the text states it's wee Kel that pushes Mimara away

It states that. And it states that Esme pushed her towards Akka. And both presumably think that its their decision, just like Mimara thinks that it's little Kel's machinations that would push her away successfully. 

The idea that someone with the Judging Eye (and I'm sure that Kellhus knew about this, though I don't think there's textual evidence for that) would end up with one of the only humans on the planet capable of going into Ishual and then Golgotterath (or at least near there) along with one of the oldest and most capable nonmen and all of that being coincidence seems incredibly odd. We already know that the skin eaters were manipulated to expect Akka, after all. Why wouldn't Mimara be the special weapon here?

Now what can she do? Well, for starters she may be able to remove the entire Topoi of Golgotterath. She may be able to destroy or remove the Inverse Fire. Both are reasonable extensions of what we've seen her do with sealife and Au Jus. But going after the thing we saw in WLW - what if she is able to forgive damnation? 

What if Kellhus' overall goal is to defeat the Consult by simply having them forgiven for their crimes? You can imagine this, right - the Consult laughing at Kellhus' and his godlike ideas, only to come face to face with Mimara who then forgives them - and then they go look at the Inverse Fire and find out that she is absolutely correct, and that they are now free to die as they choose. 

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Yeah in the rest of the post i agree with you,Kellhus is the genesis of the idea. Just signposting my thought process a bit, The whole ordeal is a big distraction, Mimara is obviously immensely important considering she sees damnation and sin. There is no textual evidence i remember saying Kellhus knew about her special sight, however Kellhus knowing stuff is pretty much par for the course. Yeah coincidences aren't happening , even Akka thinks "the Whore" is driving him.

I have no ideas myself on what she would actually do once there, I had a half idea that she and Akka will get to Cleric's Mansion and be swapped out with Serwe and Sorweel for daughter and an enemy. Then Akka will rally the remaining non-men to Dagliash where they will seem to help one side but will actually betray.

I've still not decided what i think she did in Cil-Aujas(sp?) . Beyond "guarding the gates". Washing away Topoi isn't a bad idea actually. She has forgave a sin before and it affected objective reality. Can she forgive crimes not done to her.

That's a pretty nice theory all round.

 

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The other possibility is that Kellhus isn't manipulating Akka because of akka but because of Mimara, who is his real secret weapon. Kellhus clearly pushed her to akka, after all. Akka thinks that it is because that would be the best way to manipulate him, but that's just as obviously self-serving bullshit. It makes a lot more sense if all of the great ordeal is to get the ring bearer - mimara - to mordor.

Almost right. Akka is the ring bearer, mimara is the ring.

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That's a pretty slick theory. My only problem with it is it doesn't remind me of Kellhus. He doesn't leave much to chance. If Cleric doesn't decide to commit suicide, then that trip is done. But, I guess there was no other choice? 

Spitballing here a minute. What if Kellhus did destroy Ishual? Went back there found out it was Seswatha's 2nd foundation, has to kill them all because he can't have any competition, and sends Akka and Mimara on their way knowing Seswatha will lead Akka. It still doesn't remind me of something Kellhus would do, but look at Momemn. 

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