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Bakker XLIII - the prattle of unnumbered years


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21 hours ago, unJon said:

Yeah that's what I meant. Might be misusing the idiom.

I'm probably just ignorant of it, unJon.

12 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

i'm kind of stunned the book is actually coming out.

fucking finally.

Oh, fuck ya, bud B).

It's real nice to have a digestible itinerary too; small morsels of time until the book itself. Like supposedly, once the copy-edit is done, Bakker can release Trisk's merest fraction to Pat. I think Grimdark Mag already said that Bakker won't be published in Issue #2 of 2016 so, unless there's merit to have an excerpt days before your release (Issue #3 comes out July 1st as far as I can count), we probably won't be seeing a Grimdark excerpt. The full series book trailer - according to the youtube channel - is set for early April release.

Add to that my wish-list of possible Bakker engagement and there's bound to be something to look forward to every month. I'd love to see Pat do his customary pre-release interview. I've also tried to make the circumstance fertile for an Author Q&A subforum at SA (a la Zombie Three-Seas, many iterations ago). And I'd be ecstatic if Bakker agrees to do a TSACast interview with me.

May revelation soon render you all as insane and broken as myself.

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Question for Bakker: the arrival of serwe in the path of cnaiur and kellhus seems like a random chance event. As a result, cnaiur decides to take kellhus into the nansur empire rather than confronting him in the area where they encounter serwe. As a result kellhus does not travel the shortest path south from the location they encounter serwe to shimeh (as cnaiur envisions at the time). As a result of joining the holy war the circumfix is inevitable. Did moenghus condition the path for kellhus to avoid the holy war and take the literal shortest path to shimeh (and serwe disrupted his plans)? Or did moenghus condition the path, including serwe, for kellhus to join the holy war and take the longest path to shimeh and inevitably encounter the circumfix? Or did he condition for both options?

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55 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

If the inrithi are defeated in the desert and at caraskand, the fanim can unite the three seas with the same unification wars kellhus waged on his inrithi allies before launching the great ordeal

Yea.,  but doesn't Moe know that Kellhus needs the strength of the Gnosis not the Psukhe? 

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If the inrithi are defeated in the desert and at caraskand, the fanim can unite the three seas with the same unification wars kellhus waged on his inrithi allies before launching the great ordeal

Yea.,  but doesn't Moe know that Kellhus needs the strength of the Gnosis not the Psukhe? 

The mandate are better off if the unification wars crush all the anagogic schools, they could be easily persuaded to stand neutral.

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1 hour ago, lokisnow said:

Yea.,  but doesn't Moe know that Kellhus needs the strength of the Gnosis not the Psukhe? 

 

The mandate are better off if the unification wars crush all the anagogic schools, they could be easily persuaded to stand neutral.

True.  But would they then believe that Kellhus was the harbinger?  I just don't see how it wouldve worked out the same. 

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5 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea.,  but doesn't Moe know that Kellhus needs the strength of the Gnosis not the Psukhe? 

The only people who've told us the Gnosis is stronger than the Psukhe are Gnostic sorcerers though?

Then again, perhaps Moe knows what Kellhus needs is the Gnostic Daimos....though it's odd the Daimos doesn't seem to come up before the SS invent it?

I know historically the Nonmen supposedly possessed it (I think Bakker mentions this in an interview?)...perhaps summoning a Ciphrang requires pledging one's soul?

 

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OK.  But the Psukhe might be stronger than the Gnosis, sure. But not for a Dunyain.  Psukhe power is equivalent to the passion of the heart. Hence Moe needing Cnaüir to chorae him on the topoi that is Kyudea. So for Moe to condition a path, IMHO, he is going to condition the one that will yield the Gnosis the quickest. Gnosis=Intellect,  Psukhe=passion,  which one is tailor made for a Dunyain? 

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Moe makes it clear that Kellhus was expected to learn gnostic sorcery. The idea that he wouldn't seems a huge flaw in all the thinking.

I don't think that moe believed you needed gnosis instead of cish magic - but I do think that they needed all the schoolmen. Even at their height there weren't a whole lot of fanim mages, and they take a bit more to make. Dunyain should be able to make them - driving fervor of God shouldn't be hard after all - but that isn't the path that Kellhus believes himself to be on.

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@ MSJ: I thought the idea Big Moe conditioned the path even after Kyudea (sp?) at least suggests Kellhus'  explanation of what the Psukhe requires is wrong?

That or he is wrong about Big Moe's level of passion?

57 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Maybe the assumption is that you can bring the Gnosis into fold as long as the unification happens one way or the other.

I think the explanation on the Daimos is that it's not worth it for most, and I think the SS only goes there because they are jealous of the Gnosis.

Well, it would probably be easier to have the Mandate become a priesthood and create the Swayali Compact via the Gnosis, rather than blind a bunch of female Few...yet imagine the allegories & symbolisms that could've been mined to help the series reach greater heights of controversy!

It is interesting to think what  a Cish led Great Ordeal would've looked like though.

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So, you guys are not of the opinion that Moe or any Dunyain for the matter, would be, or was limited by the Psukhe? I do. I believe, as I just stated earlier, that's what Moe pulled off with Cnaüir and the chorae,  hence Meppa.  IF, passion is what the Psukhe is based off of, and Meppa has a ocean of Water, amnesia and was found wondering in the desert, I believe that its Moe/Cnaüir. I don't necessarily believe Moe has conditioned anything past Shimeh for Kellhus.  I believe the Thousandfold Thought truly is his now. As for why Moe needed to be turned into Mepppa, I can only assume as a back up for his son. That's being short sighted, I know. I just don't have any wild speculation on his true purpose, is all. 

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This is all speculative, but it seems safe to assume that the Pshuke is indeed weaker than the Gnosis.  The anagogic sorcerers at Shimeh used horrible tactics, had less of an advantage of numbers than they expected, and still killed all but three of the Fanim priests.  That says to me that the Pshuke is superior, but not vastly so.  In contrast, when we see Gnosis vs anagogis, it is a complete curmbstomp.  Akka could easily overcome the three (presumably powerful) sorcerers protecting the Emperor outside Shimeh, and when he was ambushed by the Scarlett Spires in the library by seven (or more?) sorcerers, he is able to kill two of them before he is overwhelmed. 

To me there is a degree of dominance that the Gnosis provides that simply isn't present with the Pshuke.  Even if we assume that Akka is a relatively powerful member of the Mandate, you can't account for this discrepancy in power. 

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10 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

The only people who've told us the Gnosis is stronger than the Psukhe are Gnostic sorcerers though?

This is true, but Akka gives us an anecdote to go with it:

 

Quote

Only once had Achamian witnessed Cishaurim sorcery, what they called the Psûkhe—on a night long ago in distant Shimeh. With the Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, he’d destroyed his saffron-robed assailants, but as he sheltered behind his Wards, it had seemed as though he watched flashes of soundless lightning. No thunder. No mark.

 

So, it isn't as if Akka speaks only academically.  Granted, it is very doubtful that he faced more than one Primary, so at best he faced one Primary and a few Secondaries, or Tertiaries, or even some lower level Cishaurim.  Yet, it isn't as if he remarks that we felt any danger.  It's my belief that the power-level of the Gnosis is high higher than the Psûkhe.  It would be my theory that the Gnosis is the purest distillation of sorcery possible on Earwa, with the meta-Gnosis being the purest application of that power.

I certainly could be wrong though, but nothing in the series would lead me to believe that.

8 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 I don't necessarily believe Moe has conditioned anything past Shimeh for Kellhus.  I believe the Thousandfold Thought truly is his now. As for why Moe needed to be turned into Mepppa, I can only assume as a back up for his son. That's being short sighted, I know. I just don't have any wild speculation on his true purpose, is all. 

Even Kellhus remarks that he recognizes that Kyudea is conditioned ground.  That means that at least part of what happens there is according to Moe's intentions, after all, Moe is not stupid.  The question, of course, is where does it end?  At what point does Moe's Thousand-Fold Thought end and Kellhus' begin?

We could take the whole meeting at face value, that Kellhus really surprises Moe by stabbing him, but really, he even tells him three times that he will kill him:

 

Quote

“It’s not in your interest to deceive me.” A stone-faced pause. “Unless …”

“Unless,” Kellhus said, “I’ve come to assassinate you, as our Dûnyain brothers have decreed … Is this your apprehension?”

 

 

Quote

“They warn me,” Kellhus said, “that you are Dûnyain still.”

One of the captive skin-spies convulsed against its chains, vomited threads of spittle into the pit below.

“I see. And this is why I am to die?”

 

Quote

“Refuse me anything, and I will kill you, Father.”

So, there are really two possibilities.  One, that Moe is just headstrong and totally disbelieves that Kellhus could, or would, kill him.  The other is that he is already prepared for that possibility.  Considering how much went in to getting Kellhus there, why would Moe risk it all on hubris?  He even admits that the probability trace failed him at a point (the Circumflex):

Quote

“Those without authority lost nothing by inserting you between them and their Gods, for they already yielded their actions to others. Servitude is the most instinctive of habits. But those with authority … To rule in the name of an absent king is to rule outright. Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable …”

[...]

“This,” the eyeless face said, “was where the Probability Trance failed me …”

Considering this, Moe certainly, by his own admission, could not be certain about what came after that.  So, would he just blindly assume that Kellhus would join him?  (Pun only slightly intended,)  Moe even tells Kellhus why he was summoned:

 

Quote

“Only a true son of Ishuäl could succeed,” his father continued. “For all the Thousandfold Thought’s innumerable deductions, for all its elegance, there remained countless variables that could not be foreseen. Each of its folds possesses a haze of catastrophic possibilities, most of them remote, others nearly certain. I would have abandoned it long ago, were not the consequences of inaction so absolute.

“Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son.”

 

No, The Thousand-fold Thought is singular.  There cannot be two.  So, one needs to supplant the other.  Moe summoned Kellhus for exactly that purpose.  Kyudea was the test.  Moe was only make sure that Kellhus was prepared, certain, and actually possessing TTT.  In fact, all the Holy War and everything else was devised so that Kellhus would attain is own Thousand-fold Thought.  Moe's TT could only be carried so far, by his own admission:

 

Quote

“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?”

“From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared.”

 

So, Kellhus kills him and his own Thousand-fold Thought is now The Thousand-fold Thought.  The mantle is passed.  Moe only speaks of the madness and derangement to throw Kellhus off, to test if he has really attained TTT or if he is merely playing at it.  Only with certainty could Kellhus kill Moe.  And he does.

To think that Kellhus did anything unprecedented at Kyudea seems out of line with everything we are told and the seemingly logical basis for the encounter.  The voice, the mention of visions, it's all window-dressing in my mind.  None of it premeditates why he kills Moe.

So, the answer to the question of "when does Kellhus step off the conditioned path?" is never, until the path was no longer Conditioned.  He walked it all the way to Kyudea and walked it right until Moe's "death," at which point Moe no long Conditioned his path, now he walks his own Thousand-fold Thought's path.

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7 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

So, you guys are not of the opinion that Moe or any Dunyain for the matter, would be, or was limited by the Psukhe? I do. I believe, as I just stated earlier, that's what Moe pulled off with Cnaüir and the chorae,  hence Meppa.  IF, passion is what the Psukhe is based off of, and Meppa has a ocean of Water, amnesia and was found wondering in the desert, I believe that its Moe/Cnaüir. I don't necessarily believe Moe has conditioned anything past Shimeh for Kellhus.  I believe the Thousandfold Thought truly is his now. As for why Moe needed to be turned into Mepppa, I can only assume as a back up for his son. That's being short sighted, I know. I just don't have any wild speculation on his true purpose, is all. 

I think it's entirely possible Big Moe is limited...but as Mallahet (sp?) he was greatly feared and revered. I mean we'd have to believe that the Cish saw him as a good front man to strike terror into the hearts of their enemies, but was thought of as weak in their inner circles due to his lack of Water.

We'd also have to believe that communications/sendings don't require as much Water as dispensations of destructive force...but this to me is Bakker playing with our prejudices again -> Big Moe is sending dreams all the way back to Ishual, to multiple Dunyain. That this requires less power than some energy blasts....at the least it seems debatable?

OTOH Big Moe doesn't use a deluge of Water to stop the skin spies who attack him after he's stabbed. Is this because he lacks the power, or because he knows its his time to die?

=-=-=

On the Psukhe vs the Gnosis, despite the quote H gave us of Akka facing Cish (thanks for that!) I remain unconvinced. Nobody seems to even understand what the Psukhe is - all we have is Kellhus' hypothesis about recollection.

This isn't to say the Psukhe is to the Gnosis what the Gnosis is to the Anagogsis. I just think the Psukhe remains a wild card.

 

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9 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

On the Psukhe vs the Gnosis, despite the quote H gave us of Akka facing Cish (thanks for that!) I remain unconvinced. Nobody seems to even understand what the Psukhe is - all we have is Kellhus' hypothesis about recollection.

This isn't to say the Psukhe is to the Gnosis what the Gnosis is to the Anagogsis. I just think the Psukhe remains a wild card.

Well, I actually think that Kellhus' theory on the Psûkhe isn't totally correct.  It's probably somewhat right, but doubtful it's the whole truth.

However, like you say, it is something of a wild-card.  If we take it that Titirga actually was using the Psûkhe in concert with the Gnosis, we can imagine that there is another power level, where one combines the Psûkhe with the meta-Gnosis and that would probably be off the scale of anything we've seen.  If there is such a thing as meta-Psûkhe though, there is a power-level even past that.

By everything we've seen though, the Psûkhe as practiced by the Cishaurim is inferior to the Gnosis.  Whether this is a product of the fact that the Gnosis has been practiced, refined and honed over millennia or just by it's very nature is totally unclear.  The Psûkhe is barely an infant compared to how long the Siqu practiced the Gnosis, even before Men did.  We just don't know what the Psûkhe would or could look like after 4000+ years of work.

I think it's plausible it could go either way really.

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