Bakker XLIII - the prattle of unnumbered years

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

It's just hard for me to be particularly sympathetic for Bakker here given his total lack of interest in marketing and sales himself. He doesn't appear to support his fanbase particularly strongly, either - apart from Madness who he used as a sounding board, he rarely gives anyone any real help or contributes in meaningful ways. 

Compare to GRRM, who has from an early time brought people in to his fandom and encouraged them, and even had them help with things like the heraldry and history. He has pretty strong relationships with a whole lot of his fans, and the result is a lot of core fans. And he's had this for...well, ever since he's been writing on one level or another. I think Bakker started out earlier in his writing like this - you can see a lot more of this sort of thing at three seas, for instance - but for whatever reason chose to stop. 

[Madness]

35 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's just hard for me to be particularly sympathetic for Bakker here given his total lack of interest in marketing and sales himself.

It's not about sympathy, it's about facilitating our reading the end of the story. That's something you don't seem to care about, which is your prerogative.

38 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I think Bakker started out earlier in his writing like this - you can see a lot more of this sort of thing at three seas, for instance - but for whatever reason chose to stop. 

"For whatever reason." Right. As if you have no small role in making Bakker averse to interacting online?

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

Just now, Madness said:

It's not about sympathy, it's about facilitating our reading the end of the story. That's something you don't seem to care about, which is your prerogative.

I do care about it, but as far as I know that's going to happen no matter what, right? It might happen sooner if he gets more sales but he's stated that he'll publish the end no matter what, and that things are going to move on. 

I've already stated that I don't want to support his writing financially, and continue to not do so. 

And it's especially odd to hear the 'our' thing given that, ya know, you've already read the end of the story.

Just now, Madness said:

"For whatever reason." Right. As if you have no small role in making Bakker averse to interacting online?

I didn't stop him writing about Earwa back in the day, or writing on three-seas. I didn't force him to tell the world that his goal was to problematize feminism or to go to every single critic's website and start a Big Online Argument. I didn't encourage him to fight with Stover or Vandermeer or Vox Day or Valente. And I certainly didn't force him to turn his blog into a treatise on philosophy and avoid talking about his books, or turn his twitter into aphorisms. 

I'd love to take credit for making it so that Bakker chose to hide from the internet, and more importantly I'm sure that you'd really love to have someone to blame - but I'm not that big of a deal. I've also not had any direct interaction with him in what, 2 years? 3? Surely the internet is now safe for him to come back out.

Ask Bakker why he's chosen to have the online presence he's had. Ask him if Kalbear was responsible. Go ahead. See what response you get. He's already stated why he doesn't like marketing or sales or talking about his works online, but maybe it's changed. Hell, give him an interview and publish it, asking about it. That, at least, would be something fans might get excited about. 

[Madness]

Lol - as right now, the only thing you're good for when we talk is a laugh. To point, though, in each engagement you mention, you flopped your opinion around the foil side to whatever the issue was, including ROH naming you supporter who best embodied her arguments (congrats), more than a fish on land ;).

[Darth Richard II]

So many snide remarks...cannot choose.
 

Really though, its kinda hard to drum up any kind of press/marketing what have you when the author clearly gives zero fucks about such things.

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

2 minutes ago, Madness said:

Lol - as right now, the only thing you're good for when we talk is a laugh. To point, though, in each engagement you mention, you flopped your opinion around the foil side to whatever the issue was, including ROH naming you supporter who best embodied her arguments (congrats), more than a fish on land ;).

So...I'm good for a laugh, but I'm also responsible for Bakker being averse on the internet. Gotcha. And this...makes sense to you? Like you can hold both of these opinions together in your head? That I am both useful for nothing and responsible for Bakker's hermit-like behavior online?

I'm not aware of RoH naming me anything. That's kind of awesome if true, but to my knowledge that's never happened. Care to share a link, or is this just stuff you remember? 

And 'flopping my opinion around the foil side' - I don't even know what that means. Is that a Canadian idiom? Because here's the thing - regardless of me taking sides, I'm not egging on anyone to start fights. I didn't force Bakker to go seek out people to argue with on the internet. You can think Bakker is right or Bakker is wrong in those arguments, and that's not really important - because what a lot of people had a problem with is that Bakker is going and making these grand fights on the internet. Other authors don't do this, and with good reason - because it makes you look like an ass. 

That being said - if you are really looking to get more publicity, interviewing Bakker would be a really good thing. And this is something you, Madness, can actually do. You've never done an interview with him, and you run the biggest fansite for him out there. Bakker hasn't had an interview about his work in like what, 4 years? Finding out what he's up to, what work he's doing and excited about, finding out about the split and why it's happening, whether TGO ends on a cliffhanger, what the timeline is for the next books...this would all be stuff that would be good for him. And if you're right, you can also ask about how I apparently ruined his online life. 

[Darth Richard II]

Eh, I wouldn't want ROH naming me anything, unless it was as her arch nemesis. But my feelings on uh, that person are fairly clear.

Really though if you think Bakker's social media/internet woes are Kalbears fault, I think you missed the entire point.

But hey what do I know, I'm just being caustic.

[Madness]

Lol. Hyperbole.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Madness said:

FB had some quality criticism regarding Disciple as suffering from Canadian colloquialisms but it is nothing like Neuropath and I feel makes a decent jab at honoring the tropes of Detective fiction while toying with them.

Also, we need a name for the next thread.

Sounds like I read the wrong one first. Maybe the next 3 seas book will make me give Disciple another chance. But still quite wary - mainly because of the shift in quality compared to his Fantasy work. Having just finished "blindsight" by Peter Watts and being told here  Bakker is friends with him - I even considered the possibility that "neuromancer" was a joint effort between the two (there is a lot of similar debating on themes of consciousness, free will etc) but Watts is great at writing SF. Maybe it was something they both did while drinking?

 

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

2 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Eh, I wouldn't want ROH naming me anything, unless it was as her arch nemesis. But my feelings on uh, that person are fairly clear.

I wouldn't want ROH naming me much either. I regret my choices with her, and I made some big mistakes. It's still awesome from the stance that RoH somehow had this power of naming people as her champions like some Malazan house of high suck thing. 

Quote

Lol. Hyperbole.

Gotcha. It's just you making shit up again. Man, this madness guy is going to force me from using the internet.

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Maybe the next 3 seas book will make me give Disciple another chance. 

I thought Neuropath was okay - a bit repetitive but okay - but Disciple was just plain bad. It has a few of Bakker's odd weirdisms, but mostly it was just not that compelling or interesting of a detective story, Disciple himself isn't that interesting as a character, and no one else is established at all to care about. (at least Neuropath had two interesting characters). It had nothing that appealed to me from his fantasy work - worldbuilding, interesting characters, complex drama and real sacrifice. 

Hmm. Maybe I'll do an interview with Bakker, since Madness seems to be scared to do so.

[Darth Richard II]

I'll be honest, I'm still not sure this Madness fella isn't just some crazy dude who THINKS he knows Bakker, but is really talking to a sock with the words Bakker and a smiley face on it.

No er, sock puppet pun intended there.

[red snow]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I thought Neuropath was okay - a bit repetitive but okay - but Disciple was just plain bad. It has a few of Bakker's odd weirdisms, but mostly it was just not that compelling or interesting of a detective story, Disciple himself isn't that interesting as a character, and no one else is established at all to care about. (at least Neuropath had two interesting characters). It had nothing that appealed to me from his fantasy work - worldbuilding, interesting characters, complex drama and real sacrifice. 

Hmm. Maybe I'll do an interview with Bakker, since Madness seems to be scared to do so.

It could be Bakker is more comfortable when creating a world with his rules. I can certainly see how that lends itself for playing with interesting ideas. Whereas Neuropath has to be set within the rules of our world (with a little bit of near future plausible tech). It was also the case that his arguments weren't new to me at all and I felt I was being beaten over the head with it. The antagonist was cool though.

I think you and Madness should do a joint interview the outcome could possibly be "balanced" or at least provide a full spectrum interview. and no doubt entertaining without even knowing the answers. A sort of good cop, bad cop routine.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah you guys should do a rap battle!

[Werthead]

Well, that escalated quickly. I think we should bear in mind the board rules on not carrying on feuds or online battles from other forums or locations, and we certainly don't need RoH arguments that were buried years ago dreged up again. Think of your poor moderators!

[Darth Richard II]

https://frinkiac.com/meme/S08E18/297146.jpg?b64lines=IE9ILCBXT04nVCBTT01FQk9EWSBQTEVBU0UKIFRISU5LIE9GIFRIRSBNT0RFUkFUT1JTPw==

[themerchant]

If someone can give me a link to RoH website so i can browse i'll be able to find the quote about Kalbear i remember reading it too. It was a conversation between her and another user moaning about how terrible Westeros is and he was brought up as good example against the "insert creative pejorative" that populate the site, the likes of the rest of us.

However we should use the thread to discuss the books as opposed to feuding over our personal views about the writer. The criticism of Bakker in context of promotion seems fair to me.

 

 

[Darth Richard II]

Hahah holy shit. Wow. OK.

 I don't want to start trouble(no really, I don't), but let me ay that

1. Asking for links to that particular site(or even bringing it up here) is a BAD IDEA

2. That site was super duper scrubbed and had most of the content deleted during her revelation as that author who quite honestly I can't even remember how to spell.

3. Seriously, just..don;t bring that site.person up. It;s bad news. I shouldn't even be writing this post, but you seem new so I'll take the bullet for ya,.

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

I'd totally be up for a shared interview. Even willing to vet questions ahead of time. What say you, madness? 

[sologdin]

the reference to kal on ROH was simply stating that this site at the time was full of troglodytes (several persons were cited for same) and that kal is probably the only non-trog.  she did not tap him as the champion of ROHness or designate him the avatara of ROHitude.

that said, there's nothing left of the ROH sites, and kal certainly did not seek, nor did he accept, the nomination of the ROH party.

[Lord Patrek]

I figure they will probably tell me politely to mind my own business, but I've emailed Overlook to ask them if they'd consider putting all of Bakker's ebooks on sale to help promote the release of The Great Ordeal.

It will be interesting to see what they say. I told them that we're more than willing to help them spread the word and that chances are that some of us would even take the opportunity to buy digital editions to add to our collections. . .

Patrick