So Maybe It's Not All GRRM's Fault (Vast Majority his Fault but Not All)

[Anythingatall]

38 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I don't mean to sound macabre or disrespectful but GRRM is 67.  Already 2 years past the UK retirement age.  

In a few years he would have been one year below it.

I am beginning to think the series wont be finished but not for the same reason.  Regardless of how you view the pacing of the last two books it clearly wasn't the plan.  It read to me like he got bored of the story he was telling and preferred the 'world building' Dunk and Egg type stuff.  I find it hard to believe that lack of motivation didn't play a factor in the change of pace, be that lack of motivation to finish the plot as he had planned/work out some of the black holes in the plot/cut through the Mereenese Knot.  I don't think having the show beat him to the punch is going to increase his motivation. 

[Lautrec]

6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

That television is held in the same esteem as the other arts is a nonsensical assertion. The best talent in the visual medium make movies, always have and still do. For every twilight zone, there are a great many more better remembered and regarded movies. No matter how much you love the show, it's not going to change reality.

Of course movies are held in a higher regard than TV shows, but what does that have to do with Game of Thrones being remembered 20 years from now? That is what you said wouldn't happen. 

[Jonathan N]

1 hour ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

You wouldn't want to vacation in Dubai?

Olenna Tyrell: "I congratulate you upon your restraint."

I love what Sir Gareth said about GRRM not being professional, and I think our friend Oil, Blood, Water is not grasping the meaning of this term. I suggest reading up on creative process and intrinsic motivation, and especially recommend Csikszentmihalyi, who done some seminal research on both subjects and once famously said: "Repression is not the way to virtue. When people restrain themselves out of fear, their lives are by necessity diminished. Only through freely chosen discipline can life be enjoyed and still kept within the bounds of reason."

This "freely chosen discipline" is what we call professionalism.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

In his seminal work, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, Csíkszentmihályi outlines his theory that people are happiest when they are in a state of flow— a state of concentration or complete absorption with the activity at hand and the situation. It is a state in which people are so involved in an activity that nothing else seems to matter. The idea of flow is identical to the feeling of being in the zone or in the groove. The flow state is an optimal state of intrinsic motivation, where the person is fully immersed in what he is doing.

I think when GRRM complains that his creative process is not happening he is probably telling the truth. But I also think that allowing all kinds of distractions to disrupt this process is his own doing and yes, is completely unprofessional. Like Sir Gareth, I have had high pressure creative job for years where I faced multiple deadlines and I also believe that one can be creative and also professional. And by the way, I would have never had a career I've had if I wasn't prepared to pass on quite a few vacations, and I have no regrets.

 

[Anythingatall]

2 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Of course movies are held in a higher regard than TV shows, but what does that have to do with Game of Thrones being remembered 20 years from now? That is what you said wouldn't happen. 

They were, that seems to be changing.  TV is taken much more seriously now. The Wire, True Detective, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad.  I'm not saying they are all great (I have only actually watched one of those) or they will all stand the test of time but they have been smash hits with critics and audiences alike.  

 

[Jonathan N]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

It's popular, contemporarily, which is a characteristic of, as I aptly described it, pulp. Of course he will finish.

"Of course"??? Seriously? The facts don't support this irrational exuberance and certainty that you apparently feel.

[Jasta11]

He had to know that the show would overtake the books.

He had 5 seasons before ADWD was overtaken, 6 max, and 6 before ADOS was overtaken and the TV series finished, 7 or maybe 8 max. Martin knew, more than anyone, that he couldn't at that point match the writing pace of the first 3 books. Whether it's because of the 5 year gap being dropped, him lacking motivations, character/PoV bloat, the Meereenese knot, his numerous distractions and/or things he couldn't foresee like how much of a smash hit the show would be, doesn't matter much. Martin is far from an idiot, and I believe he had the tools to foresee this happening in the grand scheme of things, and he was fine with it, for his own reasons. 

Him saying he can't meet deadlines is pretty much an admission that he lacks professionalism. I know the feeling, I have the same problem. I actually went to therapy to fix it, and it worked to a degree; the biggest thing I was told is to drop the distractions. I had the time to do everything I needed to do, I just chose to spend it doing something else because I couldn't be arsed. It is my belief Martin does that to a greater or lesser degree.

Now, I know the drill, Martin isn't our bitch, he doesn't owe us the books or anything. I agree. But I also believe the show overtaking is still entirely his fault, something he could and should (and perhaps did) have foreseen given the cirsumstances. They can't stop the show from running just because Martin writes slowly, there are a ton of practical reasons why this simply cannot happen, and they sure aren't going to weave in the inordinate amount of padding the last two books had into a TV series if they can help it.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of the show. Not anymore. But it certainly isn't their fault if Martin doesn't write as fast as he used to and gave the greenlight to the show despite this.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Jonathan N said:

"Of course"??? Seriously? The facts don't support this irrational exuberance and certainty that you apparently feel.

Well I suppose earth could be hit by a comet, or Mexico could invade.

1 hour ago, Lautrec said:

Of course movies are held in a higher regard than TV shows, but what does that have to do with Game of Thrones being remembered 20 years from now? That is what you said wouldn't happen. 

Other mediums produce timeless classics. Television does not. The reach of television content through generations has been limited in comparison to the other arts. I can not put it in any simpler language and you having to resort to Twilight Zone as a counter-example really rather makes the point for me.

[Good Guy Garlan]

3 hours ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

I disagree above.

Feast and Dance had A LOT OF MATERIAL to be ADAPTED correctly to screen.

What I mean with this? That while yes, mostly of the content is very "passive", it was THEIR WORK to actually make it work to be more available for screen, as WB did with book 6 of Harry Potter: they added/exaggerated action scenes in a book that was mostly two people talking to each other.

They didn't want to take the time to do the job, though, despite that's exactly their job in this mother.

 

 

Bad comparison. I'm guessing the added scene you mean was Harry and the Weasleys running around a swamp and then the Burrow catching fire out of nowhere for no reason. That was so terrible and obviously different from the rest of the film that I remember my gf at the time (who hadn't read the books) asking me at the theater, "That part's not in the books, right? If that's the solution to make Feast and Dance more palatable, then no thank you, I'll have none.

Also, WB really had no choice as I imagine they were contracted to make a movie out of a particular book, no way around it (and it's not like they were going to streamline stuff, because the longer the series the more $$$). D&D, however, can pick and choose, they decide what to include and what to cut.

Basically, trying to make 3 seasons out of Feast and Dance is like putting on make up on a dead pig to make it look pretty as you slaughter it: no matter what you do, it's going to stink and fool no one, so you might as well get it over with as fast as you can.

[Winter Rose Crown]

I hate when people compare HP and asoiaf. I read HP when there were only 3 published books and people bitched nonstop about how long they took and what a slow writer she was. Also, the HP movies were awful compared to the books. Also, they were movies, not a show. You watch it for 2 hours every couple of years, not every week for a few months like a TV show. It isn't the same.

If he cares about it, he should just get it done. It has been 20 years ffs. And if he doesn't care, hire a ghost writer.

[bent branch]

Just out of curiosity, how many tv shows over 20 years old have the people claiming people will still be watching AGOT in 20 years actually seen.

[Ser Knute]

GRRM can write at his pace, whether you like it or not.  Oh sure he has a publisher, but he's not really beholden to anyone but himself because the book will be picked up and sold due to the popularity it now has.  So, deadlines and bitching about any idea of such is pointless.

When was the last really great work done as a band by The Rolling Stones?  Tattoo You?  Even further back with  Let It Bleed or Sticky Fingers?  30 years... more?  Just because they release an album and meet a deadline doesn't make the album in the same creative genius as prior/earlier work.

He left Hollywood for a reason, this is his 'masterpiece' whether you rank it among others or not shouldn't make a bit of difference to him, nor should any time constraints you think he should be under to satisfy your arbitrary deadline.

Having a goal in mind is one thing, trying to mechanize the creative process is another.  That's not how artists work, nor should it ever be.

Just peruse some things released under pressure rather then when the artist felt their material was ready and the truth of that should be evident.

I'm fine with however long it takes as long as he feels it's ready and is satisfied with his end product...  but it's pretty ironic to see people bitching... where's your masterpiece of fiction?  Shouldn't require more than a deadline and some professionalism, right?

[WhitewolfStark]

4 hours ago, Lautrec said:

Ever heard of a little show called The Twilight Zone? It ended over 50 years ago and it still being dissected, discussed and studied today. Honestly, I have no idea where you are coming from with this plainly wrong line of thinking. 

While I love The Twilight Zone and own the entire show on DVD, there are some reasons why it sticks and why it doesn't. It came from the earlier days of TV when it was still relatively experimental and The Twilight Zone was really the end of that experimental era and culmination of its achievements.

We've recently entered a new experimental era in television which has been brought upon by a change in how people watch television shows (binge watching) as well as technology (Netflix, and Streaming). This has prompted a change in how TV shows have formatted themselves and it's allowing for better Television to be made as it experiments with the "new normal".

However there was a long period of time where the majority of television was cheap and disposable entertainment. You can largely categorize this as the 1960s - 2000s, where the majority of TV shows were cheap and campy romps to keep you entertained for either a half our or an hour.

The best of television in this era often came in the form of made-for-TV-movies and mini-series that's especially true of 1970s through 1990s television programming, as that's where the best TV actors all appear in that time: The Legend of Lizzie Borden (1975), Roots (1977), The Awakening Land (1978), East of Eden (1981), North and South (1985, 1986, 1994), with cable channels like the Hallmark Channel eating up all the good made-for-TV adaptations of novels in the 1990s and 2000s (Alice in Wonderland, Gulliver's Travels, The Odyssey) while the main channels were stagnating in quality of their miniseries and made-for-TV-movies thanks to cable.

In terms of daily or weekly television shows--one only has to purchase entire seasons of those shows to figure out that they were cheap and disposable. I mean try binge watching all the seasons of I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners, Hogan's Heroes, Bewitched, Star Trek (OS), I Dream of Jeannie, or M*A*S*H, or even The X-Files and CSI--after a while continuity errors get to be a problem (when they contradict what they just said 2 episodes ago--which these shows do quite often) thanks to them assuming that a week or two will go by on an episode and the audience will have forgotten about it, and it makes you want to vomit because they're so repetitive after a while. They're great in small doses, but right after the other and they're horrible to stand after a while. The best way to think about this is that they're tasty junk food.

The Twilight Zone cures this by being an anthology series, so it's able to be binge watched because each episode is different from the last. And ultimately it's like going to a buffet, which helps keeps things fresh and interesting.

As television habits have changed, so have the TV shows. Now there's more cohesive season arcs (rather than just nominal ones) that supplement the ability to binge watch without feeling like you've gotten your car stuck in the mud and are just digging yourself deeper with each rev of the engine. Game of Thrones is part of the beginning of the new experimental era, though it wasn't the first (LOST gets that crown), and I'm excited to see how television will culminate in quality--perhaps we might even get another Twilight Zone (no not another attempt at rebooting it like the 1985 and 2002 flops--though it's rather interesting comparing the different Twilight Zone series as a showcase of how American Society changed from 1959 - 2002) type of show whose quality is held in such respect that it's studied in English classes (my sixth grade English book had the script for The Monsters are Due on Maple Street in it) and considered a classic. I'll be happy that Game of Thrones helped push the medium for the creation of such a show, however, I don't think Game of Thrones itself will be considered that culmination.

[Yevah]

Just want to point out that this past week GRRM said in his blog that he dropped all projects including editing (aside from wildcards) until TWOW is finished.

[Good Guy Garlan]

2 hours ago, Ser Knute said:

GRRM can write at his pace, whether you like it or not.  Oh sure he has a publisher, but he's not really beholden to anyone but himself because the book will be picked up and sold due to the popularity it now has.  So, deadlines and bitching about any idea of such is pointless.

When was the last really great work done as a band by The Rolling Stones?  Tattoo You?  Even further back with  Let It Bleed or Sticky Fingers?  30 years... more?  Just because they release an album and meet a deadline doesn't make the album in the same creative genius as prior/earlier work.

He left Hollywood for a reason, this is his 'masterpiece' whether you rank it among others or not shouldn't make a bit of difference to him, nor should any time constraints you think he should be under to satisfy your arbitrary deadline.

Having a goal in mind is one thing, trying to mechanize the creative process is another.  That's not how artists work, nor should it ever be.

Just peruse some things released under pressure rather then when the artist felt their material was ready and the truth of that should be evident.

I'm fine with however long it takes as long as he feels it's ready and is satisfied with his end product...  but it's pretty ironic to see people bitching... where's your masterpiece of fiction?  Shouldn't require more than a deadline and some professionalism, right?

And where's Martin's masterpiece of fiction? Oh, that's right, he's letting other people finish it for him. How nice, he's sharing his life's work with less talented writers! I know that's none of my business, but I'd sure as hell would fight tooth and nail to stop other people from finishing my masterpiece. Because then it wouldn't be my masterpiece, now would it?

For what is worth, I agree with you that you just can't rush art, as ludicrous as it is to not be able to catch up with the tv show in nine years. It is what it is. Martin is not the first author to put out a book every decade and he won't be the last, but as far as I know he is the first one to set a nice little time bomb for himself in the form of a tv show and then do nothing to try to catch up despite having a huge lead. 

[Ser Knute]

6 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

And where's Martin's masterpiece of fiction? Oh, that's right, he's letting other people finish it for him. How nice, he's sharing his life's work with less talented writers! I know that's none of my business, but I'd sure as hell would fight tooth and nail to stop other people from finishing my masterpiece. Because then it wouldn't be my masterpiece, now would it?

For what is worth, I agree with you that you just can't rush art, as ludicrous as it is to not be able to catch up with the tv show in nine years. It is what it is. Martin is not the first author to put out a book every decade and he won't be the last, but as far as I know he is the first one to set a nice little time bomb for himself in the form of a tv show and then do nothing to try to catch up despite having a huge lead. 

Understood and I can understand the crticism to a point.  Did GRRM anticipate how the pop culture would embrace his work when the screenplay rights were being negotiated?  I'm a Johnny-come-lately as far as the books, but I do think they're better than the show, though the show has brought elements that I value highly as well, I mean the visual look of the Others is spot-on with my conceptual imagery for example...

GRRM has stated he's 'focusing' more on completing the next book, so it just feels odd to see 'fans' complaining as if they're upset or angry with him... I mean the alternative is no story at all and no one would be the wiser of his 'vision'.  I'm certainly happier that this story exists than if it didn't.

And while masterpiece is certainly open to interpretation... and I'm no literary expert, I find the story and the way it's written to be among my favorites.  Elio and Linda, who do have literary backgrounds seem to also like it enough to have invested so much of their time and effort into their analysis and this site for the rest of us enthusiasts.

I didn't like a lot of decisions George Lucas made, but Star Wars is still going strong and I'm happier to have grown up with that story than to have not had it at all.

 

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, WhitewolfStark said:

In terms of daily or weekly television shows--one only has to purchase entire seasons of those shows to figure out that they were cheap and disposable. I mean try binge watching all the seasons of I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners, Hogan's Heroes, Bewitched, Star Trek (OS), I Dream of Jeannie, or M*A*S*H, or even The X-Files and CSI--after a while continuity errors get to be a problem (when they contradict what they just said 2 episodes ago--which these shows do quite often) thanks to them assuming that a week or two will go by on an episode and the audience will have forgotten about it, and it makes you want to vomit because they're so repetitive after a while. They're great in small doses, but right after the other and they're horrible to stand after a while. The best way to think about this is that they're tasty junk food.

This is why defenders of AGOT have a hard time getting taken seriously. I Love Lucy is a show that has been airing for about 65 years. After all this time it still makes money for the people who own its rights. It is a proven fact that this show has staying power and still finds an audience. The fact that it makes your tummy feel oofy when you try to binge watch it is neither here nor there.

From my personal experience of ~50 years of television watching, it is hard to guess which TV shows will have staying power. A show that you love now may feel hopelessly dated in just 5 years. The only characteristic that I have identified that seems to age shows quickly is trendiness. Will AGOT age well? I don't know.

[Neds Secret]

16 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Yes, HBO should've spent 3 seasons with Feast and Dance...if what they wanted was to kill the effing show. 

Let's be absolutely real here, no fan goggles: Feast and Dance don't have enough material for one good season, let alone three. They don't even have an ending, for crying out loud. You'd be asking the audience to stick with Tyrion changing hands for one or more seasons, then not meeting Dany, and then nothing. Brienne walks in circles, meets Stoneheart at the very end then nothing. Baelish tells Sansa his plan and then nothing.  Nothing, nothing. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. You'd making two or more seasons of build up with no pay offs, no climaxes, no resolutions. I mean, the most tv-exciting event that happens in those books is a naked woman being paraded around KL. And I guess Daznak's Pit. And that's it. That is IT. You want Sam sailing to Oldtown for 3 seasons? Bran sitting on a cave for 3 seasons? Davos being in Manderly's dungeon for 3 seasons? One doesn't have to be a tv producer to know this just wouldn't fly. 

And something else: it's ridiculous to stall an ongoing show just to give more time to a guy who just doesn't seem to try to catch up anymore. Why should the show have to pay for Martin's slow pace? The show has a vast audience beyond us readers, so why should they deserve diminishing returns just so we could get our book when we wanted it? How's that for entitled, Neil Gaiman?

And before someone says "The show is crap anyway, and they had tons of filler of their own too, like Arya walking around the Riverlands for two seasons", well, yes, it's absolutely true, but that's not an excuse. People should want the show to improve, not to get even worse. For example, I was severely underwhelmed by the Tyrion-Dany interaction in the show, I thought they were boring and flat, but I was damn glad that Tyrion at least got to meet Dany on the show instead of like riding a pig, or going to see the Widow or the Whore or whatever she was, or wiping a fat guy's ass. Which is what he'd be doing if the show had dedicated 3 seasons to those books. 

I do agree that they should've tried to include some of the storylines/characters that the OP mentioned, but not at the expense of plot and pace. 

I totally agree, and you did not miss much. I am one of those who is hoping against hope for the show to improve. I am a book snob nowadays but I would never have heard of Asoiaf if not for the show, I was obsessed with the show until I had to read the books because I needed a resolution, but that is a whole nother story! Seasons 1 to 3 still are awesome to me but I find it sad that after I read all the books then seasons 4 and particularly 5 were so atrocious, but I would love to see them turn it around! I want D&D to succeed still, I want them  to save the shows life from the Fire, to seize victory from the jaws of defeat and smash season 6 out of the park! I know a lot of people don't think it can be done and some seem to want them to continue to fail but I would love AgoT to go back to being the best show on TV, and to again be representative of the masterpiece that Asoiaf was in seasons and books 1-3.

[Lautrec]

10 hours ago, Anythingatall said:

They were, that seems to be changing.  TV is taken much more seriously now. The Wire, True Detective, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad.  I'm not saying they are all great (I have only actually watched one of those) or they will all stand the test of time but they have been smash hits with critics and audiences alike.  

 

I agree, and also a lot of movie talent had done TV. Fincher directed episodes of House of Cards, Scorsese of Boardwalk Empire and Vinyl, Fukunaga did True Detective, and so on. Even 25 years ago someone legendary like David Lynch did Twin Peaks (oh, look, an old show that is remembered and watched).

 

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Other mediums produce timeless classics. Television does not. The reach of television content through generations has been limited in comparison to the other arts. I can not put it in any simpler language and you having to resort to Twilight Zone as a counter-example really rather makes the point for me.

It really doesn't, though. You are switching your argument with every post you make. You said, originally, that GoT wouldn't be remembered 20 years from now, which is patently false, since there are a number of TV shows well over 20 years old that weren't nearly as popular or as acclaimed as GoT that are still remembered and watched. Not to mention that we are living in the golden age of TV. Shows like the Sopranos, the Wire, Six Feet Under, Boardwalk Empire, and yes, Game of Thrones, will be considered classics of TV. And that is just HBO. You are simply wrong.

[Kienn]

19 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It's already been 20 years, just counting from the publication of GOT, and not whenever he started writing, so it seems a fact that the series is going to take MUCH longer than LOTR to complete.

Yea but all 3 LotR are like the length of GoT...

Plus LotR is like garbage.

The only good part of LotR is the silmarillion and that's incomplete... so... yea...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

15 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Splitting the potter books was a money grab nothing more, it certainly was not an artistic decision.  The 2nd to last movie was mind numbingly boring.  Same deal with Mockingjay.  I'm glad that d and d did not go that route just because they "could"

i would probably think differently if one of my favorite characters was JC tho.

Book six wasn't split. That was the seven one, which was, btw, dull as fuck. They managed to cut all the boring parts (like the endless camping trip) and make it an enjoyable movie(s).

I'm talking about book six, Half Blood Prince: the book is 90% Harry speaking with Dumbledore and emoing because no one believed him when he said Draco and Snape were bad people. They added scenes that in the books were only mentioned (like the attack on the bridge) and add some others (like the attack to the Burrow).