A+J=T v.9

[Shmedricko]

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daenerys I, Clash 12

Tyrion I, Game 9

Nice. Tyrion asking for burnt bacon has been pointed out many times before as a possible allusion to him being a dragon (I believe it used to be in the OP, but it was removed because that particular clue attracted lots of ridicule for being silly/a stretch), but I've never seen it connected to the line about Dany feeding her dragons. That gives it a bit more credence, I think.

[Shmedricko]

On 10/9/2016 at 4:58 PM, Shmedricko said:

1) I'm trying to compile all the descriptions of Tyrion's hair colour in the series, including his facial hair. Are there any that I'm missing?

I just updated my list of Tyrion's hair descriptions with one that I missed, which I saw pointed out by @Lollygag in this thread:

When his bowels were empty, Tyrion slipped on a bedrobe and roughed his thin flaxen hair with his fingers, all the more to look as if he had wakened from sleep. (Tyrion VII, ACOK)

[Jô Maltese]

Reading F&B, I notice Alyssa Targaryen (daughter of Jaehaerys) has mismatched eyes (one is green) and I can't remember if this was already mentionned in TWoIaF? The bottom line is that Sheira Seastar is not an exception and that this trait is indeed part of the Targaryen gene map...

Also one of the Targaryen girls is described as having very pale blond hair - as opposed to the trademark silver colour, is this again a subtle nod to AJT?

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Reading F&B, I notice Alyssa Targaryen (daughter of Jaehaerys) has mismatched eyes (one is green) and I can't remember if this was already mentionned in TWoIaF? The bottom line is that Sheira Seastar is not an exception and that this trait is indeed part of the Targaryen gene map...

That wasn't in TWoIaF. And, yes, it is a pretty good hint in that direction. Especially since now even pure-blooded, incestuous Targaryens can have this defective trait. Euron's bad eye seems to be something different, considering that his evil eye seems to be more than just an eye with a different color...

I like to take Alyssa's mismatched eyes as a hint that King Aenys' true father may have indeed been a singer - a blond-haired, green-eyed singer from Lannisport with the bastard name of Hill... Alysanne's looks also imply not all Targaryens are born with the prototypical traits.

15 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Also one of the Targaryen girls is described as having very pale blond hair - as opposed to the trademark silver colour, is this again a subtle nod to AJT?

Very pale/almost white hair is a Valyrian hair color variation we have already known about (in Maekar, for example), and that's certainly reminiscent of Tyrion's hair considering that the standard Lannister traits are either golden hair or common blond/yellow hair - but not the silver, but it is revealed, that the true dragonlord trait is the silver, not so much the gold. The silver in the golden hair is what makes you resemble a dragonlord of old.

[Jô Maltese]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

(...) Alysanne's looks also imply not all Targaryens are born with the prototypical traits. (...)

Yes. Or Rhaenys (the queen that never was) with her black hair (the seed is strong). Again I don't remember if it had been mentionned before - In fact I had more of blonde picture of her from my previous reads? Anyway, her (changed?) hair colour is coherent with some non-silver later Targaryens... Jon comes to mind of course.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Yes. Or Rhaenys (the queen that never was) with her black hair (the seed is strong). Again I don't remember if it had been mentionned before - In fact I had more of blonde picture of her from my previous reads? Anyway, her (changed?) hair colour is coherent with some non-silver later Targaryens... Jon comes to mind of course.

She was previously described as silver haired but now that seems to be age rather than natural colouring

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

She was previously described as silver haired but now that seems to be age rather than natural colouring

No, previously her silver hair was streaked with white, meaning that she originally had silver Valyrian hair which started to go white as she aged whereas she now has black Baratheon hair that grows white as she ages.

This causes somewhat of a problem in relation to the striking Valyrian features of her children, especially in light of the fact that Corlys Velaryon doesn't exactly have a Targaryen parent or grandparent - rather, possibly, a Targaryen great-great-great-grandparents (if the first Daemon Velaryon and Valaena Velaryon were siblings).

[Jô Maltese]

Well, even if the Targaryen seed is "weak" (recessive Silver gene), it's not impossible, just statistically unlikely. In that case Rhaenys inherited a Silver gene from her mother and her husband has 2. We may have more dark-haired Targs in part 2 (probably not the right thread to discuss this)?

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

Well, even if the Targaryen seed is "weak" (recessive Silver gene), it's not impossible, just statistically unlikely. In that case Rhaenys inherited a Silver gene from her mother and her husband has 2. We may have more dark-haired Targs in part 2 (probably not the right thread to discuss this)?

It is not just Corlys' children, also the striking Valyrian features of Alyssa Velaryon (who may have had a Targaryen great-grandmother) and Daenaera Velaryon (who was Corlys Velaryon great-grandniece).

Considering the Velaryons didn't marry their siblings this is all rather odd.

Hence my idea that Alyssa's mother Alarra Massey had Valyrian (Targaryen and/or Velaryon) ancestors and that Hazel Harte, the mother of Daenaera, is the daughter of the guy at the Great Council who claimed descent from the younger daughter of Gaemon the Glorious.

We hear nothing of Plumms, Penroses, Martells, etc. having striking Valyrian features - just the Velaryons again and again. And while they are an ancient Valyrian house they did not marry their siblings after they came to Driftmark (at least as far as we know - confirmed is this definitely for the time after the Conquest) it is still odd that they bring forth those striking features with little to no 'fresh infusion' of Valyrian blood.

[Jô Maltese]

Maybe the Valyrian/Silver gene is a dominant one as well as the Baratheon/Black. 

But IMHO the real reason for these discrepancies is more straightforward. GRRM probably did not establish a coherent genetical storyline in his early writing of ASoIaF, but later realising this was important for his plot (and "cheap" useful clues for the readers!), he has better described and amended accordingly the family physical traits since.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, previously her silver hair was streaked with white, meaning that she originally had silver Valyrian hair which started to go white as she aged whereas she now has black Baratheon hair that grows white as she ages.

This causes somewhat of a problem in relation to the striking Valyrian features of her children, especially in light of the fact that Corlys Velaryon doesn't exactly have a Targaryen parent or grandparent - rather, possibly, a Targaryen great-great-great-grandparents (if the first Daemon Velaryon and Valaena Velaryon were siblings).

Rhaenys was never described with Valyrian silver hair [pale silver, silver-gold, etc]. We only ever were given description of her in her more advanced years that shows the coloring of aging "black" hair, with maybe a few streaks of Valyrian. This F&B book just seems to confirm that by spelling it out. One of the rare times we readers have information spelled out, and I'll take it

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Rhaenys was never described with Valyrian silver hair [pale silver, silver-gold, etc]. We only ever were given description of her in her more advanced years that shows the coloring of aging "black" hair, with maybe a few streaks of Valyrian. This F&B book just seems to confirm that by spelling it out. One of the rare times we readers have information spelled out, and I'll take it

You get it wrong. This is TPatQ:

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With Lord Corlys came his wife Princess Rhaenys, five-and-fifty, her face lean and lined, her silver hair streaked with white, yet fierce and fearless as she had been at two-and-twenty—a woman sometimes known among the smallfolk as “The Queen Who Never Was.”

This is FaB:

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With Lord Corlys came his wife, Princess Rhaenys, five-and-fifty, her face lean and lined, her black hair streaked with white, yet fierce and fearless as she had been at two-and-twenty.

Silver hair streaked with white is Valyrian hair in advancing/old age, we get that for other aging Targaryens, too.

Rhaenys originally had Valyrian hair and then this was retconned to Baratheon black - although she did get the purple eyes.

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You get it wrong. This is TPatQ:

I did not get anything wrong. That is just what I said.

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This is FaB:

Silver hair streaked with white is Valyrian hair in advancing/old age, we get that for other aging Targaryens, too.

Rhaenys originally had Valyrian hair and then this was retconned to Baratheon black -

It is never is described as Valyrian silver (or any variant of). Just as other posters speculated, and as the artists have all drawn, it is black turning silver with age. White streaks can easily be added to that in any case. Every time a child is born, or some adult is described, and they have Targ or Valyrian features, that specific note is made, but never was for Rhaenys.

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although she did get the purple eyes.

True, this was her "Dance" split. I am re-reading many of the details on another tab

 

ETA: Even if it was retconned, it is still true to the theory, only now more truer

[Lord Varys]

24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It is never is described as Valyrian silver (or any variant of). Just as other posters speculated, and as the artists have all drawn, it is black turning silver with age. White streaks can easily be added to that in any case. Every time a child is born, or some adult is described, and they have Targ or Valyrian features, that specific note is made, but never was for Rhaenys.

When we talk Targaryens silver hair means Valyrian silver, not some other silver. Alerie Hightower might not have Valyrian hair, but Rhaenys Targaryen did.

That's reinforced again when Laena and Laenor's striking features were referred to as them inheriting the beauty of a true Targaryen from their mother (which back then also referred to the hair and can now only refer to the eyes and the facial features, etc.).

When you described the hair of an old person and talk about 'streaks of white' then the other color adjective referring to the hair refers to the original hair color. Anything else doesn't make any sense in that context.

[The Fattest Leech]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

When we talk Targaryens silver hair means Valyrian silver, not some other silver. Alerie Hightower might not have Valyrian hair, but Rhaenys Targaryen did.

That's reinforced again when Laena and Laenor's striking features were referred to as them inheriting the beauty of a true Targaryen from their mother (which back then also referred to the hair and can now only refer to the eyes and the facial features, etc.).

When you described the hair of an old person and talk about 'streaks of white' then the other color adjective referring to the hair refers to the original hair color. Anything else doesn't make any sense in that context.

These people are not Valyrian/Targ:

• He had a little pointed chin beard now, and threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty. They went well with the silver mockingbird that fastened his cloak. Even as a child, he had always loved his silver.
• A stocky, silver-haired man in a sky-blue cloak and hammered moon-and-falcon breastplate helped her from the basket
• Only a few streaks of silver marred the lustrous black hair that receded from his brow in a widow's peak as sharply pointed as his nose. A salty Dornishmen for certain
• Her mother Lady Alerie, silver-haired and handsome, still proud beside Mace Tyrell.
• He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier,
• In the yellow candlelight his silver-grey hair seemed almost golden,

And when we get to characters like Aurane, the fact that he look Valyrian is again noted specifically.

• Margaery was dancing with her cousin Alla, Megga with Ser Tallad the Tall. The other cousin, Elinor, was sharing a cup of wine with the handsome young Bastard of Driftmark, Aurane Waters. It was not the first time the queen had made note of Waters, a lean young man with grey-green eyes and long silver-gold hair. The first time she had seen him, for half a heartbeat she had almost thought Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the ashes. It is his hair, she told herself. He is not half as comely as Rhaegar was. His face is too narrow, and he has that cleft in his chin. The Velaryons came from old Valyrian stock, however, and some had the same silvery hair as the dragonkings of old.

But for some oddball reason you have hated this observation from the beginning, even though it really doesn't do much to any major plot at all except to hide a babe in plain sight. I commend you for hating me for this long , but I am adding this to the growing pint tab you owe me, just because

 

ETA: this has grown a bit too off-topic for this thread, aside from hair coloring. I will not discuss this main theory here in this thread any longer.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

These people are not Valyrian/Targ:

These people are apples to Rhaenys' orange. Silver in a known/different hair color makes sense. Streaks of white in silver hair make no sense if silver is actually a common natural hair color in the family we are talking about. Even under normal circumstances no author trying to write good English would mark out a person with silver hair (meaning in the sense of a gray-haired person - due to streaks of white in whatever natural hair color she had before - the very definition of a gray-haired person) by pointing out that she has streaks of white in her hair.

That would basically be a tautology and make no sense from a narrative point of view. One can imagine a author describing a person with gray hair having more white streaks, i.e. approaching the state where she has no longer silver/gray hair but rather white hair - but that is not the case with Rhaenys. She is introduced as a person with silver hair that's streaked with white in TPatQ.

[Jô Maltese]

Copyrights from @Lord Varys (in the WoIaF sub-forum, discussing F&B part I)

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And for all who still challenge the gospel: Princess Alyssa Targaryen has mis-matched eyes. One purple, one green. She breaks her nose, and she likes sex as much as Tyrion. Shiera is subtle, the tourney of 272 AC is less subtle, but this is no longer subtlety. This a hammer on the head.

 

[chrisdaw]

Historic Targs foreshadow various contemporary characters who are not Targs, so that's not necessarily a hint towards Tyrion being a Targ.

Do we get how Alyssa passes?

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Historic Targs foreshadow various contemporary characters who are not Targs, so that's not necessarily a hint towards Tyrion being a Targ.

Historical Targaryens are, in part, so like their later born descendants or cousins that they seem to be copies of each other - they mirror and reflect each other not just in their looks but also in their characters. And that's very intentional. King Aerys I seems to be effectively a reincarnation of Archmaester Vaegon.

Such family traits are also evident in the Baratheons, with Lord Rogar and his brothers (and also Borros Baratheon and his daughters) greatly resembling the later Baratheons - Lyonel, Robert, Stannis, and Renly.

The Lannisters don't have people suffering from heterochromia - the Targaryens now have two.

[chrisdaw]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Historical Targaryens are, in part, so like their later born descendants or cousins that they seem to be copies of each other - they mirror and reflect each other not just in their looks but also in their characters. And that's very intentional. King Aerys I seems to be effectively a reincarnation of Archmaester Vaegon.

No way, someone once told me that if I were interested in foreshadowing that this book wouldn't be for me.