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A+J=T v.9

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The A+J = T theory puts forth the claim that Tyrion Lannister is the illegitimate son of Aerys II Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

Note: Individually, none of these clues prove that Tyrion's biological father is Aerys. However, when taken together, these clues provide a strong argument in favor of the theory.

Personal Note:  I want to express my thanks to Consigliere who lived up to his name fabulously by editing, reformatting and enhancing my prior OP in the manner presented below (which is a tremendous improvement both in terms of the substance and presentation of the OP).

Clues in favor of A+J = T:

- Pale blond hair (sounds closer to Targ color than Lannister color) with patches of black hair (the Black hair could be from Betha Blackwood, the grandmother of Aerys, which might be even more compelling evidence given that there is no known source of black hair on the Lannister side).

 

- Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author).

 

- Fascination with fire (pretended it was dragonfire) and dragons / dreamed of dragons / asked his uncle for a dragon as a gift / admired the dragon skull (while possibly others had some of these traits, readers hear few if any other examples).

 

- Barristan admits to Dany that Aerys lusted after Joanna, is the woman he would have wanted to marry and took inappropriate liberties during the bedding ceremony at her wedding (not an indication of sex at that time—just that Aerys wanted Joanna).

 

- Tywin refuses to let Tyrion inherit CR even though Jaime cannot inherit as a member of the King’s Guard and tells Tyrion, “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine” (perhaps actually a confession that Tywin suspects that Tyrion might not be Tywin’s true-born son or perhaps really just a clue from the author).

 

- Tywin on deathbed telling Tyrion, “You are no son of mine” (either a literal confession or a clue provided by the author).

 

- Born deformed and described to have had a tail (similar to certain still-born Targaryens, perhaps including Rhaego).

 

- References to Tyrion having cast a shadow that made him as tall as a king.

 

- Moqorro’s vision—“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.” (Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons).

 

- Uses the alias of Hugor Hill (Hugor of the Hill was the name of the first king of the Andals and Hill are bastards from the Westerlands—if Aerys were known to be Tyrion’s father, Tyrion would be Tyrion Hill—and use of the name Hugor Hill could be interpreted to mean that Tyrion is a "royal bastard").

 

- Tells Jon, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.” (Perhaps a message from the author that this dwarf really is a bastard).

 

- Tells Jon, “Most of my kin are bastards,” … “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” (Perhaps a hint from the author that Tyrion and Jon are kin).

 

- Dreams he has two heads and kills Lannisters, while one head is laughing and one is crying (is the laughing head Targ and the crying head Lannister?).

 

- Joanna was rumored to have had an affair with Aerys and was dismissed from court by Rhaella because Aerys was making Joanna a whore (suggesting that an affair occurred between Joanna and Aerys while Aerys and Rhaella were married and might have continued even after Joanna married Tywin).

 

- Joanna visited KL in 272 AC for the Anniversary Tourney and Aerys made a humiliating remark about her breasts. Tywin attempted to resign the next day, and Aerys refused to accept the resignation (this timeline makes the birth of Tyrion in 273 AC consistent with Aerys as the biological father, and Tywin’s desire to resign could be more easily explained as a reaction to an insult regarding her breasts).

 

- Aerys seems to lose respect for Tywin after the period of time during which Aerys would have impregnated Joanna with Tyrion.

 

- The fifth book is titled A Dance with Dragons. However the book is not really focused much on the actual dragons or a battle between Targs or Targ descendants (as the Dance OF Dragons was). So why the title? Had GRRM simply decided that because he had picked the title years ago when he thought different material would be covered in that book he nevertheless kept the title? No. The better theory is that the title is a clue. Book 4 (A Feast for Crows) focused on most all of the characters other than Dany, Jon and Tyrion (who are essentially absent from that book) but A Dance with Dragons primarily focuses on these three characters. So the title of book 5 could be an additional clue pointing towards Tyrion being a dragon.

 

Similarities to Bloodraven, a Great Bastard: 

 

  1. Distinct marking (mismatched eyes / huge red birthmark).
  2. Mutilation in defense of royals (cut nose / missing eye).
  3. Capable rulers but hated nonetheless.
  4. Kinslayers.

     

Similarities amongst Tyrion, Jon (assuming R+L=J) and Dany:

 

  1. Mothers died as a result of their births.
  2. Fathers / presumed fathers (Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin and Ned) killed.
  3. Lived in the shadow of older brothers.
  4. Outcasts.
  5. Unexpectedly rose to leadership roles.
  6. Lovers died arguably by their own hand (Shae / Ygritte / Drogo).
  7. Attempted assassinations.
  8. Third child of one of his or her parents (Joanna / Rhaegar / Rhaella) (of children who lived past infancy).
  9. Each killed someone in a position of power (Tywin / Janos / Kraznys).
  10. Each has been betrayed (Shae / Bowen / MMD).
  11. Each used the help of "raiding" warrior tribes in battle (Mountain Clan / Wildings / Dothraki)

     

Frequently Asked Questions / Counter Arguments:

 

Spoiler

 

1. Would the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion be undermined?

 

This is entirely subjective. Some readers will consider the relationship ruined and others enhanced by finding out that Tywin rightfully suspected that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Assuming the author was planning such a development in the narrative, the author had sufficient leeway to write the relationship as he did, particularly given that any reveal of Tyrion’s birth father will occur only after Tywin is dead. GRRM might not consider a revelation after Tywin’s death to have any real effect on the import their interactions (or might even consider them more interesting in light of the revelation).

 

2. If Aerys raped Joanna, wouldn’t she have taken moon tea instead of carrying the pregnancy to term?

 

 The evidence is somewhat ambiguous whether Joanna went to Aerys willingly, so the encounter might not have been rape. Even if Aerys raped Joanna, Joanna might have had her own reasons to carry the fetus to term (we have been told little about Joanna or her personality or values). Further, moon tea might not be 100% effective, so she might have taken moon tea, which failed. Other forms of terminating a pregnancy in Westeros might require more extreme measure that Joanna either might not have been able to obtain or might not have wanted to take the risks involved. In addition, Joanna might have thought it was most likely Tywin’s child and did not want to terminate the pregnancy under these circumstances. Bottom line, we don’t know enough about Joanna or the circumstances of the pregnancy to conclude that Joanna definitely would have terminated the pregnancy.

 

3. Genna says to Jaime, “I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.” Does this imply that Tyrion is Tywin's biological son?

 

Not necessarily. Genna was talking personality and not necessarily inherited traits. Tyrion wanted Tywin’s approval and thus would try to be like Tywin. Tywin’s refusal to speak to his sister for one-half a year indicates that Tywin might have been upset because he was reminded that the son most like himself was the one that might not even really be Tywin’s biological son.

 

4. Tommen’s hair also is pale blond, and he certainly is 100% Lannister.

 

As he grew older, Tommen’s hair became golden blond, while Tyrion’s hair remained pale blond as an adult.

 

5. Euron has mismatched eyes as well. Does this make him a secret Targ?

 

No. There is no evidence to suggest that Euron was born with mismatched eyes. There are several reasons why a more likely explanation is that his condition is a hyphema rather than a genetic condition. [Credit to Corbon]

 

- A hyphema is effectively a bruise on the eye. It usually comes from a blow to the eye causing bleeding. If it does not clear up the blood can thicken and turn black and damage to vision can be permanent. That fits everything we know about Euron.

 

- If Euron sustained an eye injury causing a hyphema during his early career, that would have happened before Theon's birth and as far as Theon is concerned it would have 'always been like that'

 

- His nickname of "crows eye'. His other eye is blue, and crows eyes change from a light blue/grey to a red/black colour as they mature, which suggests perhaps that Euron's eye changed colour around the time he reached maturity.

 

- His sigil, which is a red eye with a black pupil. That suggests his patched eye might be dark red, or once have been red rather than black, as Theon recalls.

 

- His eye patch. The patch suggests that the eye does not have good sight, or else he would lose much by covering it most of the time.

 

- His lifestyle. Trauma injuries seem rather fitting amongst the Ironborn, especially the most adventurous of them.

 

6. GRRM inserted these “clues” intentionally to serve as red herrings.

 

A typical definition of red herring is “something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.” Usually, such a misleading or distracting clue is intended to prevent the actual solution to a mystery from being too obvious to the readers (classically, for example, by introducing multiple suspects in a murder to keep the identity of the real murderer from being discovered too easily). Further, a red herring often is explicitly stated as a potential theory by a character. If A+J=T is a red herring, the true “mystery” from which the theory serves as a distraction is unclear. Certainly, no other mystery that has been explicitly introduced in the series is obscured by the introduction of these clues regarding A+J=T. In addition, no character explicitly contemplates that Aerys might be the biological father to Tyrion. Thus, the clues for A+J=T do not satisfy any of these criteria for a typical red herring.

 

7. Tywin would not give Tyrion a classic Lannister name if there were doubt as to paternity.

 

Tyrion probably is named after Tyrion the Tormentor, a Lannister king who enjoyed making women bleed. Tywin might have found the reference irresistible given the nature of Joanna’s death (which likely involved quite a bit of blood after Tyrion’s birth).

 

8. What about the SSM stating that Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned; suggesting that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father?

 

This analysis reads too much into an SSM. It is not possible to know for sure what was going through GRRM’s mind when answering the question. This sentence was not part of a carefully crafted piece of literature but a quick written answer to questions (notice the grammatical error, using “like” rather than “likely” shows that it was likely written quickly). R+L=J is a more widely circulated theory than A+J=T, so GRRM might have thought the need to refer to Ned by name for clarity sake, but did not think the same care was needed for the reference to Tywin. Bottom line, the SSM never explicitly states that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father, just references Tywin as Tyrion’s father, which Tywin was regardless of the identity of Tyrion’s birth father. Because GRRM is careful to refer to Ned as “Ned” rather than “Jon’s father” does not guarantee that GRRM would take the same care with Tywin, particularly if GRRM wanted the mystery of A+J=T to remain hidden to those readers who uncovered R+L=J.

 

Miscellaneous Quotes and Possible Clues:

 

Spoiler

 

The following list has been collected from various posts, put together primarily by Jo Maltese (with credit to other posters where designated):

Tyrion share’s a trait with Aegon V (his great grand father?), Jaehaerys (his grandfather?). Indeed,Tyrion looks like a mixture of Aegon V and his elder brother Daeron... And he is quite a reader / scholar just like Rhaegar or Maester Aemon.

aGoT - Tyrion III

 [Ser Allister:] "You have a bold tongue for someone who is less than half a man.

aGoT - Tyrion VI

 [Bronn:] "You have a bold tongue, little man. One day someone is like to cut it out and make you eat it."

aSoS - Tyrion VI

 [Tywin:] "You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing."

aSoS - Tyrion VIII

 [Tyrion:] My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.

aSoS - Tyrion IX

 [Tyrion:] Guard your tongue, you little fool, before it digs your grave.

The Hedge Knight

 "Hold your tongue, you stupid boy [Egg]. Run away. They'll hurt you!"

The Sworn Sword

 That tongue of his [Egg] will get him hurt one day, Dunk thought.

The Mystery Knight

 [Egg] "I can talk if I want."

"No," said Dunk. "You can't." That mouth of yours will get you killed someday.

(...)

Be quiet, Dunk wanted to roar. That loose tongue of yours will get us killed.

tWoiAF

The last years of Aegon's reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros. [remember Tyrion in Winterfell or at the Wall]

tWoIaF

A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all. [premonitary?]

tWoIaF - Jaehaerys II

In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding.

(…) Jaehaerys, the least martial of Aegon's three sons. (…) Unlike his brothers, Jaehaerys II Targaryen was thin and scrawny, and had battled various ailments all his life. Yet he did not lack for courage, or intelligence.

(…)

Though never strong, Jaehaerys II proved to be a capable kingrestoring order to the Seven Kingdoms and reconciling many of the great houses who had grown unhappy with the Iron Throne because of King Aegon V's attempted reforms.

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Choice of words and dreams similar for Tyrion and some Targaryens (credit: Suzanna Stormborn)

Dany  DWD

"Yes." Her hair was disheveled and her bedclothes all atangle, Dany realized. "Help me dress.  I'll have a cup of wine as well.  To clear my head." To drown my dream.

Tyrion DwD

"You are done with drink."

"Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.

Sam FFC

"I see them in my dreams Sam.. I see the red star bleeding in the sky.  I still remember red.  I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath.  My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed, every one. " 

  Tyrion DwD

Tyrion listened to Illyrio's snores, the crack of the leather straps, the slow clop clop of the team's ironshod hooves on the hard Valyrian road, but his heart was listening for the beat of leathern wings.

Tyrion DwD

A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog.  The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.

********************************************************

Tyrion and Jon had similar dreams of dragons (credit: IceFire125)… And a “even a dwarf would look down over the world seated on a dragon’s back”:

aGoT JON II

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” 

Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. 

Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

aSoS JON V

“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

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Possible hints for Tyrion being Dany’s brother 

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not." [think of a dwarf on a dragon’s back]

 (…)

Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust.Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders."

"Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

 (…)

The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters. [following the so popular narrative consistency logic… Who else apart from Jon and Tyrion, seriously?]

[Add Spoiler, TV Show]:”2 terrible children from 2 terrible fathers"...

********************************************************

Does Varys think Tyrion’s father is dead ? [credit: Suzanna Stormborn]

aCoK TYRION XI

"Men are such faithless creatures," he [Varys] said by way of greeting.

Tyrion sighed.  "Who's the traitor today?"

The eunuch handed him a scroll.  "So much villainy, it sings a sad song for our age.  Did honor die with our fathers?"

"My father is not dead yet.”

********************************************************

Parallels between Tyrion and Aerys [credits: Suzanna Stormborn, Weirdo]

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion I

"A little bloody gratitude would make a nice start."

Lord Tywin stared at him, unblinking. "Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that matter. You did as you were commanded, and I am sure it was to the best of your ability. No one denies the part you played.”

[Compare to:]

All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in KL.  That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high-table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. “The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey.”

aSoS - TYRION VI

"Yes, I recall now," Cersei said, "Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

"And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.” (…)

"Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third."

"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson.”

[Is Tywin upset because Tyrion is Aerys the Third?]

aSoS TYRION IX

“every witness will tell a worse tale, until I seem as bad as Maegor the Cruel and Aerys the Mad together, with a pinch of Aegon the Unworthy for spice.” 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

“The substance flows through my veins, and lives in the heart of every pyromancer. We respect its power. But the common soldier, hmmmm, the crew of one of the queen's spitfires, say, in the unthinking frenzy of battle . . . any little mistake can bring catastrophe. That cannot be said too often. My father often told King Aerys as much, as his father told old King Jaehaerys."

"They must have listened," Tyrion said. "If they had burned the city down, someone would have told me. So your counsel is that we had best be careful?” 

[Grandfathers, fathers and sons…]

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

"All that," said Prince Oberyn, "and your father's fall as well. Lord Tywin had made himself greater than King Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man."

"I try, but he refuses to learn." Tyrion gave a sigh. “

ASOS 38 Jaime 

“Did you know that my brother set the Blackwater Rush afire? Wildfire will burn on water. Aerys would have bathed in it if he’d dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire.”

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Large Shadows (Dragons)

Compare these :

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

All in black, he [Jon] was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

"So power is a mummer's trick?"

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.Same quote you are referring to: the shadows that can kill clearly evokes dragons to me.

"Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

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Tyrion and Viserion parallels

The birth of Viserion (the first egg to crack, Tyrion older than Jon and Dany): And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rockpale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightenedyet he was my brother stillHis dragon will do what he could not.

This could apply to Tyrion were he Dany's brother... 

The crossbow: The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red. The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon’s teeth closed around his neck.

Viserion the lazy, the wise (clever): Wise?” Dany sat cross-legged on a cushion, and Viserion spread his white-and-gold wings and flapped to her side. “We shall see how wise they are,” she said as she scratched the dragon’s scaly head behind the horns. (...) Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. “You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. (...)“You should be hunting with your brothers (...)"

Viserion the lustful enslaved: Once, not long ago, he had ridden on her shoulder, his tail coiled round her arm. Once she had fed him morsels of charred meat from her own hand. He had been the first chained up. Daenerys had led him to the pit herself and shut him up inside with several oxen. Once he had gorged himself he grew drowsy. They had chained him whilst he slept. Remind someone's story?

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Tyrion one of the three heads of the Dragon

The dragon has three headsThere are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

Three-headed Trios has the tower with the three turrets. The first head devours the dying [Dany?], and the reborn emerge from the third [Jon?]. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do [the riddle is the riddler: Tyrion?]

Alleras in the prologue of aFfC:

"The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

"No riddle" .

[the truth is simple, not a riddle: the Targaryen House and their dragons are back, and there are 3 of them.]

********************************************************

Tyrion is the Sphinx; half-lion, half-dragon

Tyrion is neither a Lion nor a Dragon, he is all at once, he is the Sphinx, he is the Riddle : a monster, half-man (!), half-lion, with a serpent (dragon?) tail and (dragon?) wings. His face is even noseless, just like the famous Egypt Sphinx statue and his mismatched eyes  are those of a Chimera, another ancient monstrous creature.

Tyrion's mismatched eyes may allude to the upcoming Dance between the new blacks, who will back Daenerys, who rides Drogon, and the new greens, who will back Aegon, who will ride Rhaegal. [credit: Lord Menilbonean]

Dance with Dragons - Tyrion III

"You may sleep on the deck or in the hold, as you prefer. Ysilla will find bedding for you."

"How kind of her." Tyrion made a waddling bow, but at the cabin door, he turned back. "What if we should find the queen and discover that this talk of dragonswas just some sailor's drunken fancy? This wide world is full of such mad tales. Grumkins and snarks, ghosts and ghouls, mermaids, rock goblins, winged horses, winged pigs … winged lions.

********************************************************

Tyrion’s obsession and physical link with dragons and Valyria [most credit to Suzanna Stormborn]

GoT - TYRION II

"I'm off to break my fast.  See that you return the books to the shelves.  Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry.  Ayrmidon's Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I've ever seen."

GoT - TYRION III

The wine was a rare sweet amber from the Summer Isles that he had brought all the way north from Casterly Rock, and the book a rumination on the history and properties of dragons. (…)

Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons.  When he had first come to King's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room. (…)

He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening.  He had not thought to find them beautiful.  Yet they were.  As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer int he light of his torch.  They liked the fire he sensed.......When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go.

aDwD - TYRION IV

(…) The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull.

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The red comet heralding the coming of a dragon [LmL]

Dany sees the red comet as heralding her coming. It surely does, as she is the mother of dragons. But she’s not the only one whose arrival coincides with it:

aCoK - TYRION

“I will leave you.” Varys rose. “I know how weary you must be. I only wished to welcome you, my lord, and tell you how very pleased I am by your arrival. We have dire need of you on the council. Have you seen the comet?

“I’m short, not blind,” Tyrion said. Out on the kingsroad, it had seemed to cover half the sky, outshining the crescent moon. “In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger,” Varys said. “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.”  (ACOK, Tyrion)

… Fire and Blood did follow at the Blackwater!

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aWoIaF App descriptions [Susanna Stormborn]

on Joanna:

"It's said that she ruled Lord Tywin as he ruled the realm as Hand, and he greatly mourned her when she died in childbirth while delivering Tyrion.  In later years,Tywin's troubled relationship with Tyrion leads him to tell himt hat he wished he could prove Tyrion was not his son, suggesting that he is uncertain of Tyrion's paternity.

on Tyrion:

...He also dreams of riding a dragon since no one could ever look down on him if he were on dragonback.  Once, he even asks for a dragon as a name-day present, and weeps when he learns they no longer exist.

....Tywin claims that he intended to send him to the wall, but when he insists on calling Tysha a whore, Tyrion shoots him. Tywin dies, renouncing tyrion as his son.

...Becoming acquainted with Moqorro, Tyrion learns that the priest claims to have seen Tyrion in the flames, snarling amidst dragons.

 

 

Spoiler

Additional quotes provided by Shmedricko:

"The Imp is no longer my brother, if he ever was," she declared. (Cersei VIII, AFFC)

 

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered.Was she ever? (Jon III, ASOS)

 

The Imp was lying. Cersei would sooner have Robert's corpse between her legs than a pious fool like Lancel. Tyrion, you evil bastard, you should have lied about someone more likely. (Jaime II, AFFC)

 

"Grand Maester," she said, "share the tidings with the Lord Commander, if you would."

 

Pycelle looked desperately uncomfortable. "There has been a bird," he said. "From Stokeworth. Lady Tanda sends word that her daughter Lollys has been delivered of a strong, healthy son."

 

"And you will never guess what they have named the little bastard, brother."

 

"They wanted to name him Tywin, I recall."

 

"Yes, but I forbade it. I told Falyse that I would not have our father's noble name bestowed upon the ill-gotten spawnof some pig boy and a feeble-witted sow."

 

"Lady Stokeworth insists the child's name was not her doing," Grand Maester Pycelle put in. Perspiration dotted his wrinkled forehead. "Lollys's husband made the choice, she writes. This man Bronn, he . . . it would seem that he . . ."

 

"Tyrion," ventured Jaime. "He named the child Tyrion."

 

The old man gave a tremulous nod, mopping at his brow with the sleeve of his robe.

 

Jaime had to laugh. "There you are, sweet sister. You have been looking everywhere for Tyrion, and all the time he's been hiding in Lollys's womb."

 

"Droll. You and Bronn are both so droll. No doubt the bastard is sucking on one of Lollys Lackwit's dugs even as we speak, whilst this sellsword looks on, smirking at his little insolence."

 

"Perhaps this child bears some resemblance to your brother," suggested Lady Merryweather. "He might have been born deformed, or without a nose." She laughed a throaty laugh.

 

"We shall have to send the darling boy a gift," the queen declared. "Won't we, Tommen?"

 

"We could send him a kitten."

 

"A lion cub," said Lady Merryweather. To rip his little throat out, her smile suggested.

 

"I had a different sort of gift in mind," said Cersei.

 

A new stepfather, most like. (Jaime II, AFFC)

Quote

Bloody fools, thought Tyrion. "I seem to recall that Maegor the Cruel's headsman unmade three with his axe."

"Quite true," Varys said. "And the second Aegon fed Grand Maester Gerardys to his dragon."

"Alas, I am quite dragonless. I suppose I could have dipped Pycelle in wildfire and set him ablaze. Would the Citadel have preferred that?"

"Well, it would have been more in keeping with tradition." The eunuch tittered. (Tyrion II, ASOS)

Another connection between Aerys and Tyrion. These lines even occur in adjacent chapters. There's also Tyrion's remark about being "quite dragonless" in the sentence preceding his wildfire comment.

Quote

His father never had any use for drunkards, but what did that matter? His father was dead. He'd killed him. A bolt in the belly, my lord, and all for you. If only I was better with a crossbow, I would have put it through that cock you made me with, you bloody bastard. (Tyrion I, ADWD)

If A+J=T, then Tywin's cock didn't make Tyrion, and Tyrion himself would be a bastard, making this thought of his intensely ironic.

Quote

"It is almost as if someone wanted to keep you hidden whilst still preparing you for … what? Now, there's a puzzlement, but I'm sure that in time it will come to me. I must admit, you have noble features for a dead boy."

The boy flushed. "I am not dead."

"How not? My lord father wrapped your corpse in a crimson cloak and laid you down beside your sister at the foot of the Iron Throne, his gift to the new king. Those who had the stomach to lift the cloak said that half your head was gone." (Tyrion V, ADWD)

Quote

"Our dead dwarf has returned to us," Haldon said.

Tyrion shook his head to clear away the webs of dream. The Sorrows. I was lost in the Sorrows. "I am not dead."

"That remains to be seen." (Tyrion VI, ADWD)

Young Griff and Tyrion were both referred to as dead, and they both said the exact same thing in response. The dialogue with Young Griff led up to the reveal that he was Aegon Targaryen, so this parallel might be a hint that a similar revelation is in store for Tyrion.

Quote

When the prince reached for his dragon, Tyrion cleared his throat. "I would not do that if I were you. It is a mistake to bring your dragon out too soon." He smiled innocently. "Your father knew the dangers of being overbold."

"Did you know my true father?"

"Well, I saw him twice or thrice, but I was only ten when Robert killed him, and mine own sire had me hidden underneath a rock. No, I cannot claim I knew Prince Rhaegar. Not as your false father did. Lord Connington was the prince's dearest friend, was he not?"

[...]

The dwarf pushed his black dragon across a range of mountains. "But what do I know? Your false father is a great lord, and I am just some twisted little monkey man." (Tyrion VI, ADWD)

Tyrion's “false father” was also a great lord, assuming AJT.

Additional Analysis:

 

 

Links to Previous Threads:

 

Edited by UnmaskedLurker

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Please continue the discussion from A+J=T v.8 in this new thread. The OP has been updated with additional hidden text to include Schmendricko's newly found quotes. I still have not had time to draft an additional section for the OP discussing the implication of why A+J=T might matter for the story. I plan to get to that task hopefully in the near future. If anyone wants to take a crack at producing a draft of such a discussion, feel free.

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7 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

The OP gets better looking every time.

Nice work!

Actually, it can be fairly difficult to make edits in this new format. And expanding the hidden text does not always work well because the hidden text for the quotes is so long. I keep trying to make it as readable as possible -- but I struggle sometimes. I might decide to break the quotes up into more hidden text boxes so that no one box is so long.

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think the implication is rather obvious.  That white flying lizard that breathes fire needs a rider.

While I agree that Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon -- and thus Tyrion needs Targ blood to ride a dragon -- I think the analysis goes deeper. In essence, that argument can get a bit circular -- GRRM could have a different way for Tyrion to ride a dragon if GRRM wants Tyrion to ride a dragon and not have Targ blood. So GRRM is not required to make Tyrion a Targ bastard even if GRRM wants Tyrion to ride a dragon -- GRRM can write the story any way he wants.

I think that something more must be going on for the Targ connection to be so central. I think that the "dragon must have three heads" aspect of the prophecy is relevant. It is the link between Jon, Dany and Tyrion -- as the three heads of the dragon -- and as family members -- that makes the connection important to the story. Sure GRRM could write a story where Tyrion becomes a dragon rider some other way and makes the choice to help a woman (Dany) and her nephew (Jon) (or if you prefer, help a man (Jon) and his aunt (Dany)) win the Battle for the Dawn as the third "war general" and dragon rider -- making him the third head of the dragon.

But I just don't think that the prophecy makes sense if someone with no real connection to the Targs can be the third head with Jon and Dany -- both of whom we are pretty sure are at least 1/2 Targ (assuming RLJ). Sure, GRRM stated that the third head is not "necessarily a Targaryen" but if one really takes this statement to mean that the third head does not need to have any biological connection to the Targs (as opposed to merely suggesting a bastard who is not entitled to the Targaryen name but has significant Targ blood), then what does it really mean to be a head of the dragon? That approach would seem to reduce the prophecy merely to a statement that three dragon riders will win the war -- and it seems like the prophecy should go to a deeper level than that.

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3 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Actually, it can be fairly difficult to make edits in this new format. And expanding the hidden text does not always work well because the hidden text for the quotes is so long. I keep trying to make it as readable as possible -- but I struggle sometimes. I might decide to break the quotes up into more hidden text boxes so that no one box is so long.

While I agree that Targ blood is needed to ride a dragon -- and thus Tyrion needs Targ blood to ride a dragon -- I think the analysis goes deeper. In essence, that argument can get a bit circular -- GRRM could have a different way for Tyrion to ride a dragon if GRRM wants Tyrion to ride a dragon and not have Targ blood. So GRRM is not required to make Tyrion a Targ bastard even if GRRM wants Tyrion to ride a dragon -- GRRM can write the story any way he wants.

I think that something more must be going on for the Targ connection to be so central. I think that the "dragon must have three heads" aspect of the prophecy is relevant. It is the link between Jon, Dany and Tyrion -- as the three heads of the dragon -- and as family members -- that makes the connection important to the story. Sure GRRM could write a story where Tyrion becomes a dragon rider some other way and makes the choice to help a woman (Dany) and her nephew (Jon) (or if you prefer, help a man (Jon) and his aunt (Dany)) win the Battle for the Dawn as the third "war general" and dragon rider -- making him the third head of the dragon.

But I just don't think that the prophecy makes sense if someone with no real connection to the Targs can be the third head with Jon and Dany -- both of whom we are pretty sure are at least 1/2 Targ (assuming RLJ). Sure, GRRM stated that the third head is not "necessarily a Targaryen" but if one really takes this statement to mean that the third head does not need to have any biological connection to the Targs (as opposed to merely suggesting a bastard who is not entitled to the Targaryen name but has significant Targ blood), then what does it really mean to be a head of the dragon? That approach would seem to reduce the prophecy merely to a statement that three dragon riders will win the war -- and it seems like the prophecy should go to a deeper level than that.

I don't have the time or desire to give it the real in depth exposition your looking for, but there would be a lot of parallels going on if Tyrion is half Targ.  Jaime would have killed his father and he would have killed Jaimes, neither being a kinslayer.  All 3 of the dragon riders would have "killed" their mothers in childbirth, and it is even possible all 3 were conceived of rape.  If not the last, than at least 2 were bastards while 1 was born of rape so there is the imperfect nature of their conception as well.  I think there's probably a dozen other ways to link the 3 of them.

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41 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't have the time or desire to give it the real in depth exposition your looking for, but there would be a lot of parallels going on if Tyrion is half Targ.  Jaime would have killed his father and he would have killed Jaimes, neither being a kinslayer.  All 3 of the dragon riders would have "killed" their mothers in childbirth, and it is even possible all 3 were conceived of rape.  If not the last, than at least 2 were bastards while 1 was born of rape so there is the imperfect nature of their conception as well.  I think there's probably a dozen other ways to link the 3 of them.

I guess it depends on how "far" out Kin goes. Tyrion would have still killed his 2nd cousin.

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35 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't have the time or desire to give it the real in depth exposition your looking for, but there would be a lot of parallels going on if Tyrion is half Targ.  Jaime would have killed his father and he would have killed Jaimes, neither being a kinslayer.  All 3 of the dragon riders would have "killed" their mothers in childbirth, and it is even possible all 3 were conceived of rape.  If not the last, than at least 2 were bastards while 1 was born of rape so there is the imperfect nature of their conception as well.  I think there's probably a dozen other ways to link the 3 of them.

What the "opponents" to this theory are likely to contend is that even if those connections are important -- they only connect the three heads together in some "mystical" way -- but they are not required to be "blood related" for those connections to have occurred for them to be dragon riders or heads of the dragon together.

The killing by Jaime and Tyrion of each other's father is an interesting ironic consequence -- but Tyrion as Targ bastard probably cannot be justified from a literary point of view merely to achieve that single irony.

What I am hoping to put together is an explanation for why the three of them (Jon, Dany and Tyrion) being blood related makes a difference. Why the story does not work as well if Tyrion is merely an unrelated person who has some of the same back story as Jon and Dany, but is otherwise unconnected to them (other than Tyrion's actions in the end game as the third head and as the third dragon rider).

After all, quite a few people believe that Tyrion is the third head -- and will ride a dragon -- but still do not believe that he is the son of Aerys. I hope to be able to explain why, from a literary point of view, that outcome does not work as well as Tyrion as Targ bastard -- half-brother to Dany and half-uncle to Jon. In other words, the real question is what does Tyrion being the son of Aerys add to the story that Tyrion as 100% Lannister but also dragon rider/head of the dragon does not add?

By the way, many people (myself included) doubt that Jon really is a bastard. The evidence is strong that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

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The problem with "the dragons has three heads" thing, is that's all we know about it. I mean, really what dafuq does it mean? We don't know if it was an ancient prophecy, a vision by a more recent Targaryen, just a reasonable assumption by Rhaegar and or Aemon, or maybe just a narrative technique by The George. 

Here is the passage...

 

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 

The eye color, the harp, and the melancholy tone leave no doubt that this was Rhaegar. Since the babe was Aegon, the woman must be Elia. Aemon tells us later that Rhaegar came to believe his son would be the prince that was promised. Like so many prophecies we've seen in A Song of Ice and Fire, the visionary got this one slightly wrong. Rhaegar's son is the prince that was promised, but it's Jon Snow not Rhaegar's first born son, who, until the last novel was published, we assumed was dead...

 

Quote

Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

Damn Lannisters...

In the vision written by the George, Rhaegar was with his son Aegon and looking at Daenerys when he said there must be one more. At the time, Aegon and Viserys were dead and Aemon was as old as the hills. But, Daenerys was the mother of dragons, and, as Kevan told us later, her blood could not be questioned (except by nutty illemonati), 

So, since about my third or fourth reading, I've suspected that The George was telling us to look for two more Targaryens. 

Now consider Trios...

 

Quote

The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head'start supposed to do.

 

Well, relying on my assumptions, Daenerys has to be the first head, and we should expect her to devour the dying. And, although he hasn't been revealed yet, we all know Jon Snow is the third head who will be reborn...

 

Quote

Kill the boy and let the man be born.

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

 

Quote

 

So, Jon will be the third. But in the meantime, Aegon has been revealed to us, and he's the middle head in between Daenerys and Jon. Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon, and the thing that washed up red with rust was one of the heads of the black dragon. 

Finally, we know the dragons will dance and the people will die, so guses who's gonna get devoured... 

But, if Tyrion is clearly revealed to be Targaryen, and if he rides a dragon, especially if Aegon does not ride a dragon... well then, i'll say, "Damn, I was wrong."

In the meantime peel the eggs:)

Edited by Lost Melnibonean
How the hell do I delete empty quote boxes?

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1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

What I am hoping to put together is an explanation for why the three of them (Jon, Dany and Tyrion) being blood related makes a difference. Why the story does not work as well if Tyrion is merely an unrelated person who has some of the same back story as Jon and Dany, but is otherwise unconnected to them (other than Tyrion's actions in the end game as the third head and as the third dragon rider).

After all, quite a few people believe that Tyrion is the third head -- and will ride a dragon -- but still do not believe that he is the son of Aerys. I hope to be able to explain why, from a literary point of view, that outcome does not work as well as Tyrion as Targ bastard -- half-brother to Dany and half-uncle to Jon. In other words, the real question is what does Tyrion being the son of Aerys add to the story that Tyrion as 100% Lannister but also dragon rider/head of the dragon does not add?

It's because of the Targ mystique!  We want Tyrion to be 'special,' not just anybody-- and the readers are (un)consciously buying into the idea that 'special' is reserved for Targaryens (Targ-centrism, -elitism, -exceptionalism, -supremism etc.) 

Also, GRRM has this 'Skywalker' theme of the 'unfairly' exiled bastards/orphans as heroes, returning from the fringes to claim their empire, and no other clan besides the Targaryens epitomizes this mythology.

Then, symmetry and recapitulation.  The three heads are supposed to be semi-incestuous relations, like Aegon and his sister-wives.  Doesn't work if one of the heads/riders is from an entirely different family, and doesn't have the 'right' magical genetic component.  Additionally, for the right expression of the symmetry, in terms of injecting a bit incest into the mix, I guess that means Jon and Dany will have to hook up.

Personally, I find all the Targ-besottedness a bit cheesy! 

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49 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

[snip]

For those who think that fAegon is a head of the dragon, I have an entire different set of comments. In that case, what Aryagonnakill#2 stated is relevant to the literary purpose of Tyrion as a head of the dragon. Tyrion is the one with all the literary parallels to Jon and Dany that are noted in the OP. Tyrion is a main character in the story -- YG is not. For the 3 "heroes" of the war to be Jon, Dany and fAegon just makes no literary sense to me at all -- a lot let sense than those who argue that Tyrion is the third head but also 100% Lannister. While I disagree with that thesis, at least it maintains the core principal that the main actors in the end game will be the main characters throughout the series. And YG seems destined to die in DoD 2.0 prior to the War for the Dawn 2.0 (especially if he is the mummer's dragon), so he would not even be around for the big battle. I understand that you are not really making this case -- but a slightly different one -- which I will discuss next.

It seems you are suggesting that the dragon has three heads might not reference the three who will lead the charge to win the War for the Dawn 2.0, but both Rhaegar and Aemon certainly believe that is what it means. Now I know that have been wrong about other aspects of the prophecy, but I don't think they are wrong about the basic essence of the prophecy -- that a "prince" will come to lead humanity out of an apocalyptic threat (presumably the Others) and that the prince will be part of the three-headed dragon. Figuring out who are the three heads is something that Rhaegar and Aemon are not very good at doing. Describing the basic nature of the prophecy, however, seems to be something for which they are more reliable.

Moreover, the notion that the three heads are not allies in the War for the Dawn 2.0 -- but rather part of a DoD 2.0 really does not work. Why would the prophecy warn that the dragon much have three heads -- if the three heads are not allies working to win the War for the Dawn 2.0? How does that battle (DoD 2.0) have anything to do with winning the battle against the Others. Rather, it would be a distraction from the real battle (as it likely will be) rather than integral ultimately to winning it. Distracting the promised prince from his/her real and important task would not be described as something that "must" happen -- why would a prior side battle even come into play in a prophecy about the War for the Dawn 2.0. And I think it is quite clear that the War for the Dawn 2.0 is the central aspect of the prophecy -- because the survival of humanity needs to be at stake for the prophecy to have it significance -- not just a big fight among relatives for who will rule Westeros.

In summary, because the evidence for Tyrion as the third head is much more compelling than fAegon -- and because the three heads prophecy does not logically refer to DoD 2.0 -- but the War for the Dawn 2.0 where the three heads will be allies to beat the Others -- and because YG is too minor a character to be one of the war generals against the Others (and he seems unlikely even to survive that long) -- I am not persuaded by your thesis. 

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

It's because of the Targ mystique!  We want Tyrion to be 'special,' not just anybody-- and the readers are (un)consciously buying into the idea that 'special' is reserved for Targaryens (Targ-centrism, -elitism, -exceptionalism, -supremism etc.) 

Also, GRRM has this 'Skywalker' theme of the 'unfairly' exiled bastards/orphans as heroes, returning from the fringes to claim their empire, and no other clan besides the Targaryens epitomizes this mythology.

Then, symmetry and recapitulation.  The three heads are supposed to be semi-incestuous relations, like Aegon and his sister-wives.  Doesn't work if one of the heads/riders is from an entirely different family, and doesn't have the 'right' magical genetic component.  Additionally, for the right expression of the symmetry, in terms of injecting a bit incest into the mix, I guess that means Jon and Dany will have to hook up.

Personally, I find all the Targ-besottedness a bit cheesy! 

I think you are putting as "creepy" a spin on this theory as possible. I don't agree that Jon and Dany need to hook up (they might, but personally, I would prefer they did not and don't find it inevitable). And in Star Wars, Han Solo was not a third Skywalker -- but rather the love interest for the female Skywaker. So I am not sure how the Star War analogy leads to Tyrion as Targ bastard.

I think that the less negative way to express you point is to argue that none of the three were really accepted as part of his or her family -- but in reality, they are related to each other and will become each other's family as the three heads of the dragon. For Jon and Dany to be family but Tyrion just the third head for other reasons makes him a bit of a "third wheel" in the dragon.

And I don't think Tyrion is going to end up as Dany's love interest (or Jon's love interest, of course). So he would not have that connection to Jon and Dany as family (you posited Jon and Dany maybe hooking up -- but I am not sure of anyone who thinks Tyrion will hook up with Dany). The point of stating that red or black -- a dragon is a dragon -- is to argue that even a bastard (or offspring of a bastard) is part of the family. Readers who come to the conclusion that fAegon is a Blackfyre descendant will realize that Illyrio is talking about YG -- but GRRM includes this reference for the readers to draw this conclusion about a different bastard.  In this case the bastard at issue is Tyrion and not fAegon (as LM argued).

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4 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

For those who think that fAegon is a head of the dragon, I have an entire different set of comments. In that case, what Aryagonnakill#2 stated is relevant to the literary purpose of Tyrion as a head of the dragon. Tyrion is the one with all the literary parallels to Jon and Dany that are noted in the OP. Tyrion is a main character in the story -- YG is not. For the 3 "heroes" of the war to be Jon, Dany and fAegon just makes no literary sense to me at all -- a lot let sense than those who argue that Tyrion is the third head but also 100% Lannister. While I disagree with that thesis, at least it maintains the core principal that the main actors in the end game will be the main characters throughout the series. And YG seems destined to die in DoD 2.0 prior to the War for the Dawn 2.0 (especially if he is the mummer's dragon), so he would not even be around for the big battle. I understand that you are not really making this case -- but a slightly different one -- which I will discuss next.

It seems you are suggesting that the dragon has three heads might not reference the three who will lead the charge to win the War for the Dawn 2.0, but both Rhaegar and Aemon certainly believe that is what it means. Now I know that have been wrong about other aspects of the prophecy, but I don't think they are wrong about the basic essence of the prophecy -- that a "prince" will come to lead humanity out of an apocalyptic threat (presumably the Others) and that the prince will be part of the three-headed dragon. Figuring out who are the three heads is something that Rhaegar and Aemon are not very good at doing. Describing the basic nature of the prophecy, however, seems to be something for which they are more reliable.

Moreover, the notion that the three heads are not allies in the War for the Dawn 2.0 -- but rather part of a DoD 2.0 really does not work. Why would the prophecy warn that the dragon much have three heads -- if the three heads are not allies working to win the War for the Dawn 2.0? How does that battle (DoD 2.0) have anything to do with winning the battle against the Others. Rather, it would be a distraction from the real battle (as it likely will be) rather than integral ultimately to winning it. Distracting the promised prince from his/her real and important task would not be described as something that "must" happen -- why would a prior side battle even come into play in a prophecy about the War for the Dawn 2.0. And I think it is quite clear that the War for the Dawn 2.0 is the central aspect of the prophecy -- because the survival of humanity needs to be at stake for the prophecy to have it significance -- not just a big fight among relatives for who will rule Westeros.

In summary, because the evidence for Tyrion as the third head is much more compelling than fAegon -- and because the three heads prophecy does not logically refer to DoD 2.0 -- but the War for the Dawn 2.0 where the three heads will be allies to beat the Others -- and because YG is too minor a character to be one of the war generals against the Others (and he seems unlikely even to survive that long) --  am not persuaded by your thesis

I think you are putting as "creepy" a spin on this theory as possible. I don't agree that Jon and Dany need to hook up (they might, but personally, I would prefer they did not and don't find it inevitable). And in Star Wars, Han Solo was not a third Skywalker -- but rather the love interest for the female Skywaker. So I am not sure how the Star War analogy leads to Tyrion as Targ bastard.

I think that the less negative way to express you point is to argue that none of the three were really accepted as part of his or her family -- but in reality, they are related to each other and will become each other's family as the three heads of the dragon. For Jon and Dany to be family but Tyrion just the third head for other reasons makes him a bit of a "third wheel" in the dragon.

And I don't think Tyrion is going to end up as Dany's love interest (or Jon's love interest, of course). So he would not have that connection to Jon and Dany as family (you posited Jon and Dany maybe hooking up -- but I am not sure of anyone who thinks Tyrion will hook up with Dany). The point of stating that red or black -- a dragon is a dragon -- is to argue that even a bastard (or offspring of a bastard) is part of the family. Readers who come to the conclusion that fAegon is a Blackfyre descendant will realize that Illyrio is talking about YG -- but GRRM includes this reference for the readers to draw this conclusion about a different bastard.  In this case the bastard at issue is Tyrion and not fAegon (as LM argued).

At least you read. That makes me happy :) You should try peeling the eggs

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10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

At least you read. That makes me happy :) You should try peeling the eggs

I read it and not sure what to make of it. I have never been very good at analyzing that sort of symbolism -- I am more of a concrete and straight-forward analytical thinker. So I have no idea whether GRRM meant any sort of symbolism with the eggs -- or if he did -- whether you have accurately interpreted what he meant. In any event, it was an interesting read.

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1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I read it and not sure what to make of it. I have never been very good at analyzing that sort of symbolism -- I am more of a concrete and straight-forward analytical thinker. So I have no idea whether GRRM meant any sort of symbolism with the eggs -- or if he did -- whether you have accurately interpreted what he meant. In any event, it was an interesting read.

Once again, you've made me happy. I hope something good will happen in your world today. 

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I wanted to follow up on a couple things from the conversation in the last thread about evidence pointing to Aerys and Johanna being "lovers" vs a one-sided obsession on Aerys' part. 

I was saying that conducting multiple public affairs is a shitty thing to do and tells us something about Aerys character and general attitude towards women.  LV replied:

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Well, Aerys was the Crown Prince and the king most of his life. He was, of course, entitled the very core. That's what royals are, even to this day, with only very few exceptions. I'd agree that Aerys was treating his sister-wife like shit having all those affairs and all, but that was a regular thing to do for a king. He was stuck in an ugly and loveless incest marriage, and society permitted him affairs while Rhaella had to suffer silently. I had a sister and had to married her 'to produce the promised prince' or 'for the dynasty' I'd have big problems with the whole thing (first to actually sleep with my sister as well as being unable to actually marry a woman I actually love).

 

My issues with Aerys and what I think shows his contempt for women and general assholery is 1) the apparent public nature of the affairs, 2) the fact that he was a hypocrite about it, calling Rhaella a whore and such, 3) choosing women from among Rhaella's companions, such that he's basically rubbing her nose in it, 4) choosing women from the nobility who he eventually discards as damaged goods once he gets bored.  I  don't think Aerys really ever loved anyone (or was probably capable of such), given the incredibly lukewarm answer Barristan gives to Dany asking if Aerys ever loved someone. And as is always the case with kings, yes perhaps it's true that "Kings can do as they like" but that doesn't make it OK, nor does it mean that they wouldn't know it was wrong. 

By the way, while I find Robert's behavior somewhat distasteful, I don't consider him an asshole for sleeping around on Cersei, especially when he does it with sex workers.  I don't really care about Cersei sleeping around either. Robert didn't parade his mistresses in front of the court or his wife in public.  And Robert apparently didn't know about Jaime.  

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I'm actually also not sure whether this kind of behavior is very common in power princes/kings in medieval settings. Women in those times cannot easily turn down a (powerful) man, and most certainly not the Crown Prince or the King. This type of besmirching the honor of a woman is more like the modus operandi of man lacking the power to actually force a woman into a sexual relationship - and I really think Aerys would have had that power. Especially before Joanna was married to Tywin (but perhaps even thereafter). If a man like Aerys would rape a (noble-)woman at court or in the street nobody would interfere. That is the sad truth.

 

Yes, and this is a big reason I believe that Johanna was not a willing participant.  She had very little recourse if Aerys wanted her.  And if Johanna agreed reluctantly to let him have sex with her because her alternatives nonexistent, well that is rape.  It IS forcing her into a sexual relationship. 

But of course Aerys would not see it that way.  He thinks he's hot shit, being the king and all, and any woman should be grateful to have him.  And if a woman protests they are only doing so because they are protecting their "virtue".  Given that forcing women in this way to have sex is absolutely normal (as you say) if someone heard about it, they would indeed assume it was consensual and spread the tale that Aerys got himself another paramour in Johanna.  In fact even if it was simply known that Aerys wanted Johanna, it would probably be assumed that he got her and that would be plenty to get the rumor mill going (since indeed it's quite difficult to refuse).  

 About her being able to leave if she wants, see below. 

 

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But the Lannisters is a different matter. I really think there is a scheming and darker side to her than we know up to this point. That whole 'Joanna ruled Lord Tywin' thing has to have some meaning, after all.

 

"Johanna ruled over Tywin" in the context it is given means that Johanna is the only person in the world whose opinion mattered to Tywin.  That he actually loved her, and cared about her wants and needs.  Considering Tywin didn't give a rat's ass about anyone else, this is saying something.  There is absolutely no implication in the text that this phrase means she was lording it over him or had anything but the normal influence of a loving spouse over him. If you want to interpret the text in a counter-contextual way the burden is on you to prove it.

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And the Lannisters being somehow above social climbing and all doesn't make any sense. Joanna's cunt may very well have been Aerys' price to appoint Tywin his Hand. Even if it was not, then the Lannisters are still social climbers since now, finally, they got in the pants of the royals and got the place they coveted at court. Tywin himself only got his position because he befriended Prince Aerys, after all.

"The Lannisters" are not a homogenous group and never have been any more than any other family.  

And your claim that Lannisters are likely to be social climbers can be used to argue that Johanna would have little recourse but to stay in KL.  Let's say we have a situation where Johanna's parents are the schemers of the bunch.  Having a daughter among Rhaella's handmaids would be a good position for them and improve their influence in court - given they are not the main branch of the Lannisters this would be a big deal.  If Johanna became uncomfortable with Aerys' unwonted attentions, her scheming parents in this scenario would have just told her to suck it up.  Maybe they would even have told her to do what the king wants ala The Other Boleyn Girl plot.  She then has the choice to either continue to resist/evade Aerys as long as she can, or allow him to rape her.  Either of these scenarios are consistent with the text and wouldn't require additional explanation or recharacterization (since we know absolutely nothing about Johanna's parents).

OTOH your hypotheses that either Johanna was a schemer acting on her own and trying to sleep her way to the top, with Tywin as a hapless victim OR that Tywin was part of the scheme and offered Johanna to Aerys will require a rewriting of character for Johanna and Tywin both.  And the hypothesis that Aerys and Johanna were legitimately in love would require a lot of explanation too, given Aerys character is inconsistent with him treating women as anything other than hunks of meat existing solely for his pleasure (see also Barristan quote about Aerys' "love" for Johanna).  

Edited by A spoon of knife and fork

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20 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

What the "opponents" to this theory are likely to contend is that even if those connections are important -- they only connect the three heads together in some "mystical" way -- but they are not required to be "blood related" for those connections to have occurred for them to be dragon riders or heads of the dragon together.

The killing by Jaime and Tyrion of each other's father is an interesting ironic consequence -- but Tyrion as Targ bastard probably cannot be justified from a literary point of view merely to achieve that single irony.

What I am hoping to put together is an explanation for why the three of them (Jon, Dany and Tyrion) being blood related makes a difference. Why the story does not work as well if Tyrion is merely an unrelated person who has some of the same back story as Jon and Dany, but is otherwise unconnected to them (other than Tyrion's actions in the end game as the third head and as the third dragon rider).

After all, quite a few people believe that Tyrion is the third head -- and will ride a dragon -- but still do not believe that he is the son of Aerys. I hope to be able to explain why, from a literary point of view, that outcome does not work as well as Tyrion as Targ bastard -- half-brother to Dany and half-uncle to Jon. In other words, the real question is what does Tyrion being the son of Aerys add to the story that Tyrion as 100% Lannister but also dragon rider/head of the dragon does not add?

By the way, many people (myself included) doubt that Jon really is a bastard. The evidence is strong that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

I agree 100% that the Three Heads of the Dragon need to be blood related. If, at some point it is proven that Tyrion is NOT a Targ bastard then I think that would categorically mean that he can not A: be the Third Head and B: ride a dragon.

While I will concede that fAegon is right now the second most qualified applicant for the position of "Third Head", I think the fAegon has another job meant for him as the "Mummer's Dragon".

I can not see how fAegon can be opposed to Daenerys AND be one of the three heads.

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22 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

stuff

I'm not sure how much you know about this historical affairs of absolutist kings. I'm thinking about the French kings Louis XIV and Louis XV, basically. Royal mistresses can have important positions at court in such societies, and being 'the king's official mistress' was actually effectively an official position at court. The queen's feelings about all that don't really figure into it the whole thing. Nobody would fault a king in the real world in such society. And that's why I would say we should not fault Aerys for having open affairs in front of his sister-wife in the context of Westerosi even if we both would agree that this is shitty behavior in our present times.

The same goes for Rhaella being treated much differently. Wives aren't allowed to have affairs in medieval societies (and not even in certain present-day societies). Even if Aerys would have been willing to allow his sister-wife sexual freedom (as Laenor and Rhaenyra most likely allowed each other), he would have to punish her should any of that ever become public. The king's children must be the king's seed.

I'm not sure either that Aerys ever really loved Joanna the way Tywin (and I did not intend to give the impression that this was the case). My assumption is that Joanna may have loved Aerys (and not so much Tywin). That option is still on the table. Joanna would not need 'a re-write' because Joanna Lannister is, as of yet, only a name. We have never met her and we don't know what kind of person she was.

The idea is basically that Tywin was in love with Joanna, Joanna was in love with Aerys, and Aerys just wanted to fuck Joanna.

I don't see a difference between sleeping around discreetly and in public - especially not in an arranged loveless marriage. Rhaella and Aerys didn't love each other romantically (and neither did Cersei and Robert) so there is really no reason to think Rhaella was particularly humiliated or emotionally hurt by her brother-husband having affairs.

I agree that Joanna may just have been forced into a sexual relationship with Aerys. That is a possibility. I'm just saying we don't know that yet. And that I find this assumption less convincing than the idea that she was a willing participant because it is difficult to imagine that Tywin would have remained Aerys' friend or accepted the appointment as Hand if his 'best friend' had mistreated/harassed/raped his future wife.

Considering that Tywin really was the big fish back in CR when Joanna would have gone to court back in 259 AC it is difficult to imagine that her parents were behind that. She was most likely already betrothed to Tywin at that point and Tywin was the one with connections to court (through Aerys) not Jason and Marla.

As to the quote about Joanna ruling Tywin:

That is a deliberate nod by George to I, Claudius in which exactly the same thing is said about Livia and Augustus. Could be that he didn't intend to imply that Joanna Lannister had her husband under her thumb but by choosing those words that's what he did. If he wanted to imply that Tywin loved Joanna very much and all he could have used a different image.

My best explanation for Tywin keeping his cool about all this - assuming that Joanna and Aerys actually had an affair - is that it was consensual and that Joanna wanted it and was able to convince Tywin to accept all this. And that would actually coincide with Tywin's submissive side that, to me at least, can be glimpsed when we see that Shae is wearing the chain of the Hand when Tyrion finds her in Tywin's bed.

And, as I've said multiple times, this whole Shae affair would fit in very nicely if we assume Tywin was using her 'to get back' at Aerys via Tyrion (who would be Aerys' bastard). By finally executing Aerys' bastard and treating the woman Aerys' bastard loved the same way Aerys (and Joanna) treated Tywin he may have gotten some sort of twisted satisfaction. Or not. Perhaps Shae actually had to play Joanna during their sex game? I'd not be surprised if Joanna also wore the chain of the Hand back in the day. If in Tywin's mind Tyrion was Aerys (being his bastard) then Tyrion's woman could easily have stood in for Joanna. And his wife certainly would have been very much in Tywin's mind in the night before he intended to execute her younger son.

One really wonders what exactly Shae meant when she said that Tywin frightened her. I mean, his sexual tastes and preferences (meaning what exactly he wanted to do) couldn't have been it so much since she actually showed open contempt for Lollys being traumatized after being raped by so many people on the street. But one imagines that even Shae has little experience with nobleman wanting her to play his dead wife, or play some role in a weird game involving his dwarf son, etc.

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10 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I agree 100% that the Three Heads of the Dragon need to be blood related. If, at some point it is proven that Tyrion is NOT a Targ bastard then I think that would categorically mean that he can not A: be the Third Head and B: ride a dragon.

While I will concede that fAegon is right now the second most qualified applicant for the position of "Third Head", I think the fAegon has another job meant for him as the "Mummer's Dragon".

I can not see how fAegon can be opposed to Daenerys AND be one of the three heads.

So here is the challenge I am trying to meet. I think that while there are many different views, the "plurality" view seems to be that Tyrion is one of the heads of the dragon. I did a poll a little while ago and asked people who were the three heads of the dragon (people had to vote for 3 different characters -- I did not allow votes for one character being all three heads -- so aggregate votes/voters would add up to 300%). About 89% of the people voted for Dany. About 79% voted for Jon, and almost 47% voted for Tyrion. fAegon (who came in 4th place in the poll) got about 27%. But we also know from the poll published recently that Tyrion as a Targ bastard is about a 2 to 1 (or worse) minority position. So a lot of people must think that Tyrion is a head of the dragon (and presumably dragon rider) but also 100% Lannister. 

The OP already give the "analytical" evidence that Tyrion is a Targ. On other posts I have discussed the evidence that only a Targ will be able to bond with a dragon. But GRRM is free to write the rules any way he wants, and we could be misreading the clues and the evidence. Accordingly, these "analytical" points are not going to convince people who are put off by Tyrion as son of Aerys.

So the challenge is to discuss what Tyrion as Targ bastard does for the story. Why is the story more "satisfying" or "better from a literary point of view" if Tyrion is a Targ bastard than merely a head of the dragon/dragon rider without being a Targ bastard? Why should these people who are skeptical of the theory believe that GRRM has a good reason to make Tyrion a Targ bastard? The technical requirement of riding a dragon and being a head of the dragon is a bit circular -- GRRM did not need to make being a Targ a requirement for those function. Why would he have done so? In other words:

Why would GRRM limit dragon rider to Targ blood? How does that enhance the story?

Why do the three heads need to be related? How does that enhance the story?

In summary, why is the story a better story with Tyrion as a Targ bastard than 100% Lannister? What does this reveal do for the story?

I have some ideas regarding these questions, which I have posted above in this thread (and I think LV had some thought in v. 8 that were pretty good that I will try to go back and find and incorporate) -- but I am looking for input from anyone else who has thoughts on this matter.

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18 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Han Solo was not a third Skywalker

Indeed, there is another...

There must be a third, and that wasn't Han.  In the big reveal, the third, secret Skywalker was Anakin...As I recall, he was unexpectedly instrumental in bringing down the empire from within, upon his son appealing to him, when all hope seemed to be lost...

If I'm onto the archetype, one of the three heads is going to go over to, or at least flirt with 'the dark side,' ultimately dying, before the war for the dawn is done...Hmmm, wonder which one will be 'the bad egg'..?!

 

18 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

none of the three were really accepted as part of his or her family -- but in reality, they are related to each other and will become each other's family as the three heads of the dragon. For Jon and Dany to be family but Tyrion just the third head for other reasons makes him a bit of a "third wheel" in the dragon.

And I don't think Tyrion is going to end up as Dany's love interest (or Jon's love interest, of course). So he would not have that connection to Jon and Dany as family (you posited Jon and Dany maybe hooking up -- but I am not sure of anyone who thinks Tyrion will hook up with Dany). The point of stating that red or black -- a dragon is a dragon -- is to argue that even a bastard (or offspring of a bastard) is part of the family.

Your rephrasing captures what I meant.  Exactly; no theory will fly with Tyrion as 'third wheel'; he's the steering wheel!  RE: fAegon/YG, he's just not an important character; he's so sketchily drawn, I can barely remember him, let alone visualize him!  GRRM portrays him as more of a pawn than a player; the 'head,' by definition, is a major player, not just a 'piece' in someone else's game/s.  If you're looking for alternate 'heads,' Jaime is more likely (he's recently begun his transition, to come over from the dark side...).  Or Bran (completing his Jedi training, with mysterious, gnarled, and timeless Jedi master, in an overgrown, forgotten place among the trees...except, of course, I doubt he has even a drop of the magical Targ blood). 

You're right to draw attention to the 'red or black, a dragon is a dragon' reference.  Where does power reside?  Not in the title or the name, it's in the blood.  As the Skywalkers are invisibly bound by 'the force,' Targaryens-and-co by their magical dragon-bonding blood telepathy.  It's a fragile power; when one is born, you never know which way it's gonna go; some harness the good, but some are seduced by the dark side...

And don't get me started on magicked-up swords, like lightsabers or lightbringers...

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

your hypotheses that either Johanna was a schemer acting on her own and trying to sleep her way to the top, with Tywin as a hapless victim OR that Tywin was part of the scheme and offered Johanna to Aerys will require a rewriting of character for Johanna and Tywin both.  And the hypothesis that Aerys and Johanna were legitimately in love would require a lot of explanation too, given Aerys character is inconsistent with him treating women as anything other than hunks of meat existing solely for his pleasure (see also Barristan quote about Aerys' "love" for Johanna).  

Aerys is consistently described as engaging in a lot of psychopathic behavior, which is incompatible with love.  The only way one might argue against this being his ingrained character, is if the psychopathic behavior was acquired later in life, secondary to some kind of brain insult.  I don't know the history well enough to know if he was ever described as a loving character, before suffering some kind of mental break.  My impression was that he always had a cruel streak, though this may have been masked by charm in his youth.  So, if he didn't actually force himself on her, it's possible he may have duped Joanna with his magnetic charm (the 'wiki' emphasizes this charm factor in his youth), then dumped her.  His behavior is only supposed to have gotten really extreme after Duskendale (277AC), so perhaps that doesn't rule out more measured behavior and calculated seductions pre-dating that (potentially covering the timeframe all three Lannister conceptions).

 

12 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Why would GRRM limit dragon rider to Targ blood? How does that enhance the story?

Supply and demand.  If a quality, or commodity, is ubiquitous, 'familiarity breeds contempt,' and its allure dissipates.  The allure of the fantasy genre resides in its secrets (i.e. restricted knowledge, e.g. hidden identities and latent powers) and magic (again, arcane knowledge, reserved only for a few 'special', 'select,' 'chosen' ones).  Isn't this whole forum built on this allure, after all?  So many secrets, questions, theories...and only a select few will be 'right' in the end...That's the assumption which fuels and animates this discourse.

Consider 'the force'...If the force were equally strong in all people, and if we could teach a college course in it to whomever enrolled, the democratization of the Jedi would render the mystique of the Jedi somewhat banal!  In playing around with the 'Skywalker' archetypes, my intention is not to map the plot of Star Wars onto ASOIAF with a high degree of fidelity, nor is it an analytical, linear argument, obviously.  The allure of Star Wars does not reside in its plot (linearity), but in its powerful mythic archetypes (non-linearity).  I once read an article in which George Lucas was asked his opinion on why the masses were flocking to see his saga multiple times over, to which he responded that he felt it was akin to a religious, spiritual experience (like going to church) for the audience, as it was for him to create (following his own 'awakening' after surviving a near-fatal car accident).  The power of the 'religious/spiritual' to move people lies in its 'awe' factor. 

Without mystery, without exclusivity-- without looking up to a 'superior' being-- there is no 'awe.'  So, to answer your original question, not everyone in the story is going to be able to fly.  Where do the gods reside if not up there, in the sky?  The Targs did not come to power by sitting on an iron platform, they did it by flying.  As masters of the air, or, put more prosaically, as the only ones with an air-force, they are literally on a level with the gods, and not bound by the laws of mere mortals, trapped like ants below them. If everyone had such an air-force, we'd have to redefine the parameters of gods and men, and advance the frontiers of the known:unknown!  If it takes a little incest to perpetuate this myth, and consolidate their power-base, why not? Should anyone arouse their displeasure (I believe they call this phenomenon, 'waking the dragon'), they get on their high 'horses' ('the stallion that will mount the world..?') and breathe down fire upon them!   

The exception to this Targ rule (that only Targs can fly) is going to be Bran-- and that will make the balance of power very interesting! 

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@Lord Varys

You stated in the previous thread that

Do you guys remember Joanna's reaction when she discovers the incest? She seems to be very distraught, separates the twins, and is very determined to prevent that Tywin ever finds out. Why is that? If she ruled Tywin as people said she did that shouldn't be much a problem.

The actual quote is:

Once their mother’s maid had caught them at it... he did not recall just what they had been doing, but whatever it was had horrified Lady Joanna. She’d sent the maid away, moved Jaime’s bedchamber to the other side of Casterly Rock, set a guard outside Cersei’s, and told them that they must never do that again or she would have no choice but to tell their lord father.

Joanna was horrified, and immediately acted. But I don't see any determination to prevent Tywin from ever finding out. In fact, she states that, should it happen again, she will tell Tywin.

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