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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.9

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is a very old quote, actually, and it comes from before George even published ADwD. The event he is most likely referring to is Aegon's landing in the Stormlands. That provoked a Dornish reaction causing him to write the Arianne chapters. The third will most likely cover Arianne's meeting with Aegon, whereas the other POV chapter complement he mentioned would be the Jon Connington chapter he later announced that would cover the taking of Storm's End.

There won't be any important event necessitating a Dornish reaction early on in TWoW. We already got that in ADwD. However, there might be other events Arianne is going to react to, that is pretty clear.

Oh, I get it. Everywhere I though he was talking about Winds, he was actually talking about Dance.

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

It is indeed a reference to Aegon's invasion which requires the Dornish response. Thank you for the link anyway! :)

Chronology is everything!

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I just read Tyrion's first chapter in ASoS and a couple things jumped out at me. 

The first moment is when Tyrion runs into Addam Marbrand on the way to see his father. Marbrand has just become the commander of the City Watch and one of the things Tywin has tasked him with is finding Tyrek Lannister. Bronn seems amused that such efforts are being made to find Tyrek and comments that the kid is likely dead. Bronn says that Jacelyn Bywater and Varys did what they could to find Tyrek and nothing turned up. This is Marbrand's comment: 

Quote

Ser Addam gazed at the sellsword with distaste. “Lord Tywin is stubborn where his blood is concerned. He will have the lad, alive or dead, and I mean to oblige him.”

It isn't that this comment is especially revealing but I think it's worth noting when I consider the discussions of Tywin when it comes to blood, pride, kinslaying, family loyalty, etc. I also think that GRRM wanted this comment to be fresh in our minds when reading the upcoming scene with Tyrion and Tywin that talks about the importance of blood ties and family. 

We next have the quote where Tywin compares Tyrion with Aerys when he says that they're both the kind of men who required applause. That quote has already been covered here but I mention it because I feel like this chapter in particular has comments to indicate that AJT is something that was planned from the very beginning. 

Next, we get to the big moment where Tyrion asks his father why he would deny him Casterly Rock when Casterly Rock should be his by rights. 

This is what Tyrion has to say:

Quote

The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.”

I wonder if some part of Tywin is extra hard here because Tyrion is talking to him about rights and legality and Tywin knows in his heart (to his eternal frustration) that Tyrion is completely wrong but can't reveal to him why without casting shame upon House Lannister.

Tywin replies that Tyrion is *never* going to get Casterly Rock. Tyrion asks why.

Quote

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

This quote has been gone over plenty of times but to me, one of the key things here is Tywin saying that Tyrion is "ill-made". I feel like this comment could just as easily be about Tyrion's conception. Ill-made through rape. "To teach me humility"--supposedly humility was what Aerys wanted Tywin to suffer most of all. If nothing else, Tywin is clearly saying right here that he has doubts about Tyrion's paternity. 

Quote

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known.

Tyrion is stung but, I get the impression that he has always known on some level that Casterly Rock isn't meant to be his. Some part of him knows that there has always been something off about this situation. I feel like he's acknowledging in his gut that he understands on some subconscious level why Tywin would deny him. He's always known that he was different from the other Lannisters and it isn't just about being a dwarf IMO. 

The conversation turns to Tywin telling Tyrion that Cersei has informed him that Tyrion made threats against Joffrey and Tommen. Tywin asks Tyrion if he really threatened his own House and his own kin in order to save a whore and Tyrion seems wounded that Tywin thinks that he would ever try to hurt Tommen. He explains that he thinks Tommen is a good boy and says that he's his own blood so he wouldn't want to hurt him. 

Quote

But Tommen... why would I harm Tommen? He’s a good lad, and mine own blood.”

“As was your mother.” Lord Tywin rose abruptly, to tower over his dwarf son. “Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station. And make no mistake - this was the last time I will suffer you to bring shame onto House Lannister.

I think it's interesting that Tywin is comparing Tommen and Joanna here. I know there are some people who are convinced that Joanna was some kind of devious slut who was Aerys's mistress for political gain, but I'm not getting that impression at all and this is another line to indicate that Joanna was good and that Tywin did indeed genuinely love her. 

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@Rhaechyll Targaryen

The Marbrand quote you find is doubly telling, actually, because Tywn and Addam Marbrand are mostly close kin, too. Tywin's mother Jeyne was a Marbrand, and Addam might be the grandson of her brother. He isn't just speculating. Tyrek Lannister would also be Addam's kin in that case.

Tywin loving Joanna is not really been questioned, but that doesn't mean Joanna herself must have loved Tywin in turn. You can love a wife who cuckolds you. That is not impossible.

However, there is another find in your final quote you did not mention. The reference to Tyrion's 'station'. His station should be clear, shouldn't it? He is the trueborn son of Lord Tywin Lannister. What else but Tyrion's true parentage (which would make him a bastard) could Tywin mean?

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Tywin loving Joanna is not really been questioned, but that doesn't mean Joanna herself must have loved Tywin in turn. You can love a wife who cuckolds you. That is not impossible.

However, there is another find in your final quote you did not mention. The reference to Tyrion's 'station'. His station should be clear, shouldn't it? He is the trueborn son of Lord Tywin Lannister. What else but Tyrion's true parentage (which would make him a bastard) could Tywin mean?

I'm saying that I think Joanna is a character who is considered to be "good" in their world and I think that goodness for them extends to areas like being faithful to one's husband and not being sexually promiscuous (according to the rules of their society) in order for political gain. I don't think there's any doubt that Tommen is sweet and innocent, so I think it's telling that Tywin would use Joanna as a comparison to Tommen especially since he so rarely (I think this is the only time?) speaks of her.

I agree that it's possible for a man to love a wife who is cuckolding him but I don't think that man is Tywin Lannister. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I think that he would think of her so fondly if she were a mistress to a man that he grew to despise. And a public mistress at that. I absolutely think that it would sour the memory for him. As for the idea that Joanna had an affair with Aerys before Tywin and was faithful after that--I don't think that adds up with what we know of Tywin and Joanna's wedding. Tywin was the happiest he'd ever been in his life if Genna is to be believed. I don't think he'd be that way if he thought that Joanna had recently been mistress to his best friend. It also doesn't square with Aerys's reaction during the bedding.

I've said it before, but I think Aerys was acting like a man who was jealous because Tywin was going to have something that he'd never had and would never be able to have. He wanted to have the first night with Joanna and I think it would have been his first night with Joanna. Given that Aerys would make fun of Joanna in court years later, I feel like if Aerys had truly deflowered Joanna and she'd been his willing mistress, he would have rubbed it in Tywin's face in that moment and said something jokingly about how he hopes that Tywin enjoys her as much as he did. Aerys was the kind of man who would get his dig in for sure in my opinion. Barristan says that Aerys was drunk so I disagree that Aerys would have been all that concerned about pushing Tywin too far in terms of making comments. The guy was putting his hands on his one time best friend's wife in front of other people. Since looking is obviously appropriate during a bedding ceremony and some degree of touching is permitted since the bride and groom have to be carried into bed and stripped--what exactly did Aerys do that made Barristan hesitate and so carefully choose his words? This isn't exactly some ceremony where a little bawdy behavior is considered to be inappropriate. I'm guessing it was probably a long and awkward moment where Aerys totally crossed the line with his fingers before somebody finally intervened and said something to make him remember himself.

If Joanna had been Aerys mistress I don't think that Barristan would have phrased it as Aerys "wanting" her. Why wouldn't it be something simple like 'Your father was in love with his mistress but she married another man...' There's also the world book telling us that Aerys lost interest in his mistresses very quickly. Joanna seems to be his one obsession and my guess is because she's the one who got away.

I'm convinced that the only way AJT makes any sense is if Joanna was raped. It explains so much. 

Regarding Tyrion's "station" according to Tywin--I agree, from the AJT perspective it seems clear to me that he's referring to Tyrion's bastard status. Tyrion isn't being treated like the second son of a great nobleman who is arguably the most powerful man in the kingdoms. He's being treated like the bastard that Tywin thinks he is but can't acknowledge because he doesn't want any more shame brought down on House Lannister. 

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Tyrion is NOT a Targaryen imo (it would be cheap if GRRM used the same 'trick' two times and R+L=J is 99% going to happen, Tyrion's relationship with Tywin is one of the most deep and meaningful on the show and it's not meant as a cover up for a Targ twist, GRRM said you don't need Targ blood to be a dragon rider, Tyrion's connection with dragons  as set up since book 1 may have another explanations, etc. etc.) even though I think he will ride Viserion, that's pretty obvious since book 1, because Viserion is smaller in size than any other dragon, he's gold and he has a roar able to send a hundred lions running..and when they followed the red comet he sank his teeth in the lion's mane.. so the dragon may be the instrument of the revenge against the Lannisters who wronged Tyrion. 

Tywin hates him because:

1) he's a dwarf; 

2) he 'killed' Joanna

3) he suspects - better, he wants to believe - that Tyrion is not his own (because it would make easier for him to live with 1) and 2) and behaves accordingly to his belief

Even assuming Tywin wanted to hint / believed that Tyrion were a bastard and acted that way, what Tywin thinks is not necessarily the truth.

Tyrion is, in my opinion, a Lannister to boots and 'truly Twyin's son', the one who is best  suited to follow his father's steps (if only his father could see that), he has his father's instincts for politics + that bit of compassion which might make him similar to the man Tywin was before Joanna died.

His name is GRRM's way to underline this aspect, imo. He didn't choose names randomly, just for example Cersei is clearly named after Omero's Circe. Jamie might be a joke for J'aime.

Tyrion's name starts with the "Ty-" prefix, like his father Tywin and his grandfather Tytos (and Tygett, Tybolt, Tygett, Tyrek, Tya Lannister). Similar names are later used elsewhere but they mostly came from the same source (Tya married a Baratheon) and nowhere you find a concentration of Ty-prefix names as huge as with the Lannister family.

Other houses use other prefixes (Aemon, Aegon, etc.).

The Ty = Lannister thing is very fitting because I've read that Ty = Land and the Lannisters are known for their wealth in a world where land is one of the status symbols along with gold (which is one of the Lannisters' colors), even their family name Lannister looks like an ibrid between Lancaster and Land and smells of 'Land-owner/runner', so it fits them that their names start with a syllabe meaning land, as a synonym of power.

Tyrion embodies both Land (Ty-prefix) and gold (he's never short of gold and uses it to buy allies, to buy freedom, etc.) because metaphorically he would be the best suited to follow after Tywin, the only one with his skills and inheriting his capability in politics (Tywin, as stern and cold hearted as he was, has been the best Hand of the King ever for 20 yrs…). If taken almost literally, his name might even be foreshadowing  that Tyrion is meant to inherit Casterly Rock, if he survives...the son with the Ty-prefix inherits the land.

With this, I'm NOT implying Jamie and Cersei are not Lannisters. They definitely are to me. It's just that it suited GRRM better to have them all named for specific aspects he wanted to underline. He wanted Tyrion to be the only 'true son' of Tywin. 

In the narrative, it's easy to justify that only Tyrion was given the Ty-name because Joanna (who ruled Tywin)  got away with naming their first child (the twins) so that the Ty-name was given to the next son … so Tyrion was probably named before he was born, so his father didn't know he was a dwarf.

But the real reason is that GRRM wanted to give the characters names that were linked with the character. 

In AFFC, we learn that Tyrion was a name given to Kings before Aegon: even if I don't think this is foreshadowing of Tyrion being King, I think that as Cersei knew that, Tywin had to know that as well and probably resented Tyrion even more, because he had high expectations for him, named him with a Ty-name suitable for a King, and he was born a dwarf and 'killed' Joanna.

This, unless we suppose that Tyrion was named specifically after King Tyrion II Lannister the Tormenter, who was said to enjoy sex with women only after he made them bleed (basically he was a Jeoffrey), as little Tyrion made Joanna blead to death and/or was born to torment Tywin. I dont think so though:  King Tyrion I and King Tyrion III were apparently honorable Kings and I can't see Tywin givin a dwarf ANY Ty- name, not even the one of a tormenter and especially if there were other honorable Kings with that name. He wouldn't give a dwarf the name of a King, end of.

If any of this rant about names is correct, there are slim chances he isn't a Lannister, so the Targ theory has to be wrong, because GRRM would have known since the start if Tyrion whether a Targ or not and I would exclude he named him Tyrion as red herring (too small as a clue to be a red erring, hence genuine clue).

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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2 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

[see above]

George said in a Q&A that Tyrion was named by 'his father' (just for the sake of argument, let's assume that he means Tywin, not Aerys). If Tywin named Tyrion after a former king, it seems to me that would work as a ploy by Tywin to divert suspicion of Tyrion being a bastard. What better way to show confidence in the legitimacy of his dwarf son than to give him a noble name? It seems to be the more likely explanation, considering that Tywin, despite when he may have decided on the name, could have changed his mind after his wife died in childbirth, and the child was revealed to be a dwarf.

As I recall, George said the third head of the dragon did not necessarily need to be a Targaryen; I don't remember him ever saying that you don't need Targ blood to ride a dragon. If you have read such a quote, please link to it, since it would definitely be important to a number of discussions we have had on this thread.

Edited by Weirdo
shortened quote

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@Elisabetta Duò

Welcome to the A+J=T thread. :cheers:

I don't mean to pile on too much from what Weirdo has already said (and I agree with both of his points), but I want to expand a bit. First, let me acknowledge that some people have used the fact that GRRM stated that Tyrion was named by his "father" while Jon was named by "Ned" as evidence that Tywin really is the bio-dad while Ned is not. I don't agree with that analysis -- but I acknowledge that from a technical point of view, if GRRM really were being super careful with his choice of words, it might make sense. More likely, I think that at the time of the statement, GRRM was aware of the RLJ rumors being rampant -- so was careful in his reference to Ned -- but did not think that AJT rumors were as well known so did not really bother about that issue and just referred to Tywin as Tyrion's father because everyone knows Tywin that way and from a non-biological point of view, Tywin is Tyrion's father no matter whether AJT is true or not. That aside, given that we know from GRRM that Tywin named Tyrion, we can be pretty sure that after the death of Joanna and Tyrion coming out a dwarf -- the name was likely intended by Tywin to be a reference to Tyrion the Tormentor -- who liked to make women bleed. Under the circumstances, Tywin would have reason to use this name whether Tyrion is the son of Aerys or the true son of Tywin. So I really don't see how this naming convention can be used as evidence that Tyrion really is the son of Tywin. And by the way, Tyrion is at least half Lannister either way given that Joanna was a Lannister.

Weirdo's recollection is the same as mine concerning the reference to the third head not necessarily being a Targ. And of course, if Tyrion is the son of Aerys, he would be a Hill (noble bastard raised in the westerlands) -- and not a Targ. So GRRM's statement could easily be accurate, but possibly misleading. Oh, and he said not "necessarily" a Targ -- he did not say it definitely would not be a Targ. But what does it mean to be a head "of the dragon" if Targ blood is not involved. Riding a dragon does not, in and of itself, imply being "of the dragon." And the understanding is that they are heads "of the dragon" -- singular and not plural. So it is a reference to one dragon -- not three dragons -- and the only thing in the story that can be "the dragon" is House Targ. So the three heads must be of House Targ for the prophecy to make any sense. And TWOIAF and the other side books about Targ history imply strongly that Targ blood is required to ride a dragon. First Men Blood is needed to Warg -- and Dragon Lord blood is needed to Bond to a dragon.

Finally, as to your comment about using the "same trick" twice, I have two responses. First, why not? GRRM certainly does seem capable of using the "same trick twice" -- as he has done so. For example, he has brought back multiple people from the dead. He has had numerous "nick of time" arrivals to "save the day" when all looked lost. But second, and more important, it would not be the "same trick twice" -- but rather the "same trick" done in reverse. Jon was raised believing that he was a noble bastard -- but will find out that he really is the legitimate son of the Crown Prince and arguable heir to the Targ Dynasty. Tyrion was raised believing that he was the true-born son of a Great Lord and (at least in Tyrion's mind) rightful heir to CR (once Jaime became KG) -- but will find out that he really is the bastard son of Mad King. These sorts of opposing "reversal of fortune" situations is precisely the type of parallel reveals that GRRM would have.

Sorry, one last point (I know I said finally in the last paragraph, but I just has another thought). Do people think that an educated and sophisticated man like Tywin really would succumb to the petty prejudices that would blame an infant for his mother's death (many women of that era died in child birth) or judge the child for being a dwarf? Possible? Yes. But I think that there would be more to it -- and AJT would explain it all.  Oh, and the chances that Tywin thought Tyrion was not Tywin's -- and treated Tyrion poorly as result -- just to have it turn out that Tyrion really is Tywin's does not work from a literary point of view because there is no way for GRRM to reveal such a thing. How does GRRM reveal that Tywin thought Tyrion might be the son of Aerys but somehow someone else knows that Tywin must have been wrong and reveals it to the readers? How exactly can that happen?

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10 hours ago, Weirdo said:

George said in a Q&A that Tyrion was named by 'his father' (just for the sake of argument, let's assume that he means Tywin, not Aerys). If Tywin named Tyrion after a former king, it seems to me that would work as a ploy by Tywin to divert suspicion of Tyrion being a bastard. What better way to show confidence in the legitimacy of his dwarf son than to give him a noble name? It seems to be the more likely explanation, considering that Tywin, despite when he may have decided on the name, could have changed his mind after his wife died in childbirth, and the child was revealed to be a dwarf.

As I recall, George said the third head of the dragon did not necessarily need to be a Targaryen; I don't remember him ever saying that you don't need Targ blood to ride a dragon. If you have read such a quote, please link to it, since it would definitely be important to a number of discussions we have had on this thread.

I agree, he has been named by Tywin (Joanna named Cersei and Jamie). We just disagree on the reason behind the name.. I think he named him with the typical Ty-name before he knew he was a dwarf, you think he wanted to 'divert' attention from the fact he was a bastard and people might suspect about it given Aerys behavior.

Yes you are right, GRRM's words were that you were not necessarily to be a Targaryen, he didn't mention the blood, but I summarized it that way because in my perspective it's the same when it comes to Tyrion ... either he's Tywin son (hence a Lannister) or he's Aerys son (hence a Targaryen). Almost everyone in Westeros has at least a drop Targaryen blood if you go back in time enough with the ancestors to find it, so if Tyrion is able to ride a dragon as a Lannister, to me it's definitely not because of that odd drop of Targaryen blood that he might have and almost everyone else could find in themselves, but because of other reasons GRRM has not made clear yey (I find Tyrion's connections with Gargoyles very relevant to this extent, for example, a good summary is here - I don't know the guy who wrote it: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30cith/spoilers_all_tyrion_gargoyles_and_the_implications/ ).

What Martin said is "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..." .

So if one is Daenerys (Targ) and the second is Jon (Targ), that means that Tyrion will be head of the dragon without being a Targ (he says 'necessarily', but let's be honest, what he means is that the third is not a Targ). Therefore, the only situation in which I would believe Tyrion might be a Targ, is that R+L=J is false so that Deanerys and Tyrion are Targ and Jon is not (which I don't think it is, unless GRRM changed his original plan just to spite us because we all figured it out ages ago).

 

 

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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37 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Tywin is Tyrion's father no matter whether AJT is true or not. That aside, given that we know from GRRM that Tywin named Tyrion, we can be pretty sure that after the death of Joanna and Tyrion coming out a dwarf -- the name was likely intended by Tywin to be a reference to Tyrion the Tormentor -- who liked to make women bleed. Under the circumstances, Tywin would have reason to use this name whether Tyrion is the son of Aerys or the true son of Tywin. So I really don't see how this naming convention can be used as evidence that Tyrion really is the son of Tywin. And by the way, Tyrion is at least half Lannister either way given that Joanna was a Lannister.

I didn't mean that Tywin using this name was a proof that Tyrion is a Lannister, I meant that GRRM choosing this name for him is a proof that he is a Lannister, if you get what I mean. Of course you may be right and actually the (only) reason for this name is that Tywin named him after Tyrion the II, but I don't believe it because the names usually have a purpose in the Author's perspective (which is not the same purpose they have in the characters' perspective, which is often different or unclear and basically irrelevant): Joanna didn't name Cersei that way because the baby reminded her of Circe (who didn't even exist in Westeros' history), it's GRRM who made a statement with the name, he established a clear connection betweem these two female figures, he wanted Cersei to recall Circe because of the role she would have in the series. Same with Jamie. So I assume it's the same with Tyrion. It doesn't really matter why Tywin named him Tyrion, what really matters is why GRRM wanted him to be named Tyrion and I think it's to symbolize that he's his father's 'true son'.

37 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

if Tyrion is the son of Aerys, he would be a Hill (noble bastard raised in the westerlands) -- and not a Targ. So GRRM's statement could easily be accurate, but possibly misleading.

This is a very clever observation, if you don't mind me saying. I admit I didn't think of it. But if it's true, then Jon wouldn't be techinically a Targ as well so GRRM should have said that the second and the third heads didn't need to be Targs, while he mentioned only the third.

37 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

he said not "necessarily" a Targ -- he did not say it definitely would not be a Targ.

Yes. As I was saying, I think with this 'not necessarily' he meant the third is not a Targ, without being too obvious about it. I agree with you that being one of the heads and being a dragon rider is not the same, one can be a dragon rider and not one of the heads.. I don't know what Tyrion will be, all I know is that imo he will ride Viserion. If he's also one of the heads or not, I wouldn't know for sure: if he is, though, then he's not a Targ in my opinion because Daenerys and Jon are and I think this is what GRRM meant even if he said 'not necessarily'; i talked about that only because people who think that A+J=T often uses Tyrion's connections with dragons as a proof he's a Targ. I think the two topics are independent.

Thanks for replying, btw! I am kinda new in this forum (I've written just about 40 posts I think) so I do appreciate that you took the time to answer.

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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33 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

I agree, he has been named by Tywin (Joanna named Cersei and Jamie). We just disagree on the reason behind the name.. I think he named him with the typical Ty-name before he knew he was a dwarf, you think he wanted to 'divert' attention from the fact he was a bastard and people might suspect about it given Aerys behavior.

Yes you are right, GRRM's words were that you were not necessarily to be a Targaryen, he didn't mention the blood, but I summarized it that way because in my perspective it's the same when it comes to Tyrion ... either he's Tywin son (hence a Lannister) or he's Aerys son (hence a Targaryen). Almost everyone in Westeros has at least a drop Targaryen blood if you go back in time enough with the ancestors to find it, so if Tyrion is able to ride a dragon as a Lannister, to me it's definitely not because of that odd drop of Targaryen blood that he might have and almost everyone else could find in themselves, but because of other reasons GRRM has not made clear yey (I find Tyrion's connections with Gargoyles very relevant to this extent, for example, a good summary is here - I don't know the guy who wrote it: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30cith/spoilers_all_tyrion_gargoyles_and_the_implications/ ).

What Martin said is "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..." .

So if one is Daenerys (Targ) and the second is Jon (Targ), that means that Tyrion will be head of the dragon without being a Targ (he say 'necessarily', but let's be honest, what he means is that the third is not a Targ). Therefore, the only situation in which I would believe Tyrion might be a Targ, is that R+L=J is false so that Deanerys and Tyrion are Targ and Jon is not (which I don't think it is, unless GRRM changed his original plan just to spite us because we all figured it out ages ago).

 

 

That's fun stuff about the gargoyles, grazie, e benvenuti, sei Italiana, no?

I totally agree that Tyrion will ride a dragon, because George practically admitted it in a blog post years ago. Plus it would be very satisfying for most readers, him being a dwarf yet empowered that way. The debate on this board has often been about whether that will be evidence that he is Aerys's son, or just has enough Targ blood in him, or whether you need Targ blood at all. In my opinion, it's fairly settled that you need some of that blood, but it's not clear how much, and it's not clear what else you might need in terms of magical or psychological abilities.

Here's that quote about Tyrion flying; he pretends to use the wrong verb then correct himself, but of course, he's typing, not speaking, so there's no mistake!

http://grrm.livejournal.com/16495.html

Edited by Weirdo
added a link

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11 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

That's fun stuff about the gargoyles, grazie, e benvenuti, sei Italiana, no?

I totally agree that Tyrion will ride a dragon, because George practically admitted it in a blog post years ago. Plus it would be very satisfying for most readers, him being a dwarf yet empowered that way. The debate on this board has often been about whether that will be evidence that he is Aerys's son, or just has enough Targ blood in him, or whether you need Targ blood at all. In my opinion, it's fairly settled that you need some of that blood, but it's not clear how much, and it's not clear what else you might need in terms of magical or psychological abilities.

Here's that quote about Tyrion flying; he pretends to use the wrong verb then correct himself, but of course, he's typing, not speaking, so there's no mistake!

http://grrm.livejournal.com/16495.html

Yes I am, thank you :-)

Yes it's fun, isn't it? I'm not really sure if it will lead us to Tyrion's connection with dragons or to him developing belated greyscale and die/ become a gargoyle (I hope not, but...) or if is has some other metaphorical meaning, but I think it's relevant.

(I knew that quote, but thanks for reminding me of that... when I first read it had me concerned.. I mean, in some old interview he called Tyrion 'the villain', then he talked about 'mischief', I just hope he doesn't want to turn Tyrion in a 100% revengeful a** after he gets to ride Viserion. I think Tyrion will get revenge (Viserion is described as having a roar able to send a hundred lions running and because when they follow the red comet, Viserion sinks his teeth in the lion's mane), I just hope he doesn't do just that, I hope he can somehow find his place and some peace. I think his fate at the end of the series is less certain than most of people think, especially if GRRM is still convinced of having the Tyrion+Jon+Arya(or Sansa) love triangle and turn he and Jon into rivals... and it pains me to tell this because he's my fave character).

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19 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

I didn't mean that Tywin using this name was a proof that Tyrion is a Lannister, I meant that GRRM choosing this name for him is a proof that he is a Lannister, if you get what I mean. Of course you may be right and the (only) reason is Tywin named him after Tyrion the II, but I don't believe it because the names have usually a purpose in the Author's perspective: Joanna didn't name Cersei that way because the baby reminded her of Circe (who didn't even exist in Westeros' history), it's GRRM who made a statement with the name, he made a clear connection betweem these two female figures, he wanted Cersei to recall Circe because of the role she would have in the series. Same with Jamie. So I assume it's the same with Tyrion. It doesn't really matter why Tywin named him Tyrion, what really matter is why GRRM wanted him to be named Tyrion and I think it's to symbolize that he's his father's true son.

 

I see no reason why GRRM would use the name Tyrion as a hint of any kind. GRRM does not expect anyone to think Tyrion is not Tywin's son (until GRRM started planting clues to the contrary). As you admit, Cersei and Jaime don't have the Ty-prefix. If anything, I think GRRM would be making the point that blood is not everything. I think Genna is speaking for GRRM when she says to Tywin that Tyrion is Tywin's "true son" in the most meaningful sense of the word. It has nothing to do with blood -- but about Tyrion striving to be like Tywin and -- to a large extent -- achieving that goal. This debate really is the nature vs. nurture debate. GRRM is saying that for certain issues -- who you are as a person -- nurture is more important. For other issues -- like being able to bond with a dragon -- blood matters. So yes, in the "spiritual" sense, GRRM is saying that Tyrion is Tywin's "true son" but in the biological sense -- I don't think the naming as Tyrion means what you think it means.

23 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

This is a very clever observation, if you don't mind me saying. I admit I didn't think of it. But if it's true, then Jon wouldn't be techinically a Targ as well so GRRM should have said that the second and the third heads didn't need to be Targs, while he mentioned only the third.

Keep in mind my theory -- Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. So Jon would be a Targ. There has been much debate in the RLJ thread regarding this issue -- as well as Jon's original "Targ" name. The theory that convinces me is that his parents intended him to be named "Aemon Targaryen" -- so when Jon is at the Wall and struggling with his decisions and notes that he is no "Aemon Targaryen" (in reference to the maester at the Wall), the irony is that he actually is Aemon Targaryen (at least as intended by his biological parents). So technically, I think Jon is a Targaryen while Tyrion technically is a Hill. This naming convention is what I think GRRM was cleverly referencing when he said that the third head is not necessarily a Targ.

27 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Yes. As I was saying, I think with this 'not necessarily' he meant the third is not a Targ, without being too obvious about it. I agree with you that being one of the heads and being a dragon rider is not the same, one can be a dragon rider and not one of the heads.. I don't know what Tyrion will be, all I know is that imo he will ride Viserion. If he's also one of the heads or not, I wouldn't know for sure: if he is, though, then he's not a Targ in my opinion because Daenerys and Jon are and I think this is what GRRM meant even if he said 'not necessarily'; i talked about that only because people who think that A+J=T often uses Tyrion's connections with dragons as a proof he's a Targ. I think the two topics are independent.

But how can Tyrion ride a dragon without Targ blood? How can Tyrion be a head "of the dragon" if he is not "of House Targaryen"? You indicate that the "two topics are independent" but I am not sure why you are so sure. All the available evidence is that dragon riding requires the "right drop" of Targ blood (and the Lannister family tree in TWOIAF indicates no Targ ancestors). More to the point, even if they are independent, the issue of the identity of the third head needs to be explained. If the "dragon" in the prophecy is not House Targ -- then what is it?

31 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Thanks for replying, btw! I am kinda new in this forum (I've written just about 40 posts I think) so I do appreciate that you took the time to answer.

My pleasure. I know that there always are new people joining the boards, so I try my best to be patient and run through all the arguments (even though I have been through them many times before).

Let me make a suggestion -- and hopefully it won't come across as condescending (my apologies in advance if it does). Read the OP on the top of page 1 carefully -- including all of the hidden content items (which are hidden solely for space reasons and not because they otherwise need to be hidden). Keep an open mind. Try not to come to the issue with a conclusion in mind -- rather try to look at all the clues and piece them together for the solution that seems to makes the most sense and explains the clues the best. Look for counter-arguments to both sides of the debate to see which counter-arguments seem more persuasive. 

The reason that I give this advice is because to some extent it seems that you have decided that Tyrion is not a Targ bastard and so you quickly dismiss counter-arguments and latch onto anything supportive. Everyone does this type of thinking to some extent (myself included), but in trying to examine the mysteries and analyze the clues, fighting this impulse is important.

Basically -- your main arguments seem to be (1) you don't think that GRRM would do the same "trick" twice; (2) you think that GRRM has confirmed that the third head is not a Targ and therefore one of the heads of the dragon must not be a Targ; and (3) Tyrion's Ty-prefix indicates that GRRM intends Tyrion to be the true Lannister heir. I have responded to each above. In summary, my answer to (1) primarily is that it is not the same "trick" but rather the "trick" in reverse. My answer to (2) primarily is that the three head MUST be "of House Targ" because how else are they "of the dragon" and that Tyrion is a Hill and not a Targ. My answer to (3) is that GRRM is indicating nurture over nature -- that Tyrion really is the "spiritual" heir to Tywin even though Tyrion is the not biological son of Tywin. You, on the other hand, have not explained how all of the other clues that are outlined in the OP are not supportive of ATJ.

So please, go back with an open mind. Many have done so and still remained convinced that Tywin is the biological father of Tyrion. So I am not asserting that such an exercise necessarily will change your mind. But I think it might -- if you really go back to "first principles" and examine the issues without preconceived conclusions.

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11 minutes ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Yes I am, thank you :-)

Yes it's fun, isn't it? I'm not really sure if it will lead us to Tyrion's connection with dragons or to him developing belated greyscale and die/ become a gargoyle (I hope not, but...) or if is has some other metaphorical meaning, but I think it's relevant.

(I knew that quote, but thanks for reminding me of that... when I first read it had me concerned.. I mean, in some old interview he called Tyrion 'the villain', then he talked about 'mischief', I just hope he doesn't want to turn Tyrion in a 100% revengeful a** after he gets to ride Viserion. I think Tyrion will get revenge (Viserion is described as having a roar able to send a hundred lions running and because when they follow the red comet, Viserion sinks his teeth in the lion's mane), I just hope he doesn't do just that, I hope he can somehow find his place and some peace. I think his fate at the end of the series is less certain than most of people think, especially if GRRM is still convinced of having the Tyrion+Jon+Arya(or Sansa) love triangle and turn he and Jon into rivals... and it pains me to tell this because he's my fave character).

I also love Tyrion, and I hope that Tyrion will listen to his better angels in the end! Just like Dany, I think he goes back and forth between vengefulness, and wisdom, and despite his cynicism he has real compassion. My hope is that, because Tyrion, Jon, and Dany all have sympathy for ordinary people, and have had to suffer, that they will bring about at least some positive changes in the world. Certainly, giving in to his anger and desire for revenge would only continue the brutal systems already in place.

Thematically, that's why I'm most interested in the A+J=T theory. This is just about my personal tastes, and not evidence one way or the other, but I think that if Tyrion were to learn that his father was Aerys, it would enhance his internal struggle in amazing ways. He would have a real identity crisis.

Tyron prides himself on his golden tongue, his practical worldview which rejects ideology, and his intelligence which allows him to see other peoples' point of view and motives, even those of his enemies. Aerys was a sadistic monster, paranoid, and delusional. Tyrion knows that he has these dark emotions emotions and instincts within himself, and A+J would force him to reckon with them. We have seen him have people killed out of spite, we have seen him burn thousands on the Blackwater. Also, we constantly hear his thoughts, which are often mean-spirited and resentful, although he manages to keep them to himself.

The world needs him to overcome his darkness, because he has a lot to offer. And if the Targ dynasty is to be restored, then it has to make reforms, or in the end nothing will change. I want Tyrion and Dany to be a solution, not a continuation of the problem! But they both have to watch it with the anger problem, and Tyrion needs to realize it's not all about him; there's a bigger picture. Jon I'm not as worried about, he's pretty level-headed and dedicated to equality, but if he returns from death, a traumatized and betrayed man, he might have some new demons of his own!

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On 5/17/2016 at 9:56 AM, Weirdo said:

That's fun stuff about the gargoyles, grazie, e benvenuti, sei Italiana, no?

I totally agree that Tyrion will ride a dragon, because George practically admitted it in a blog post years ago. Plus it would be very satisfying for most readers, him being a dwarf yet empowered that way. The debate on this board has often been about whether that will be evidence that he is Aerys's son, or just has enough Targ blood in him, or whether you need Targ blood at all. In my opinion, it's fairly settled that you need some of that blood, but it's not clear how much, and it's not clear what else you might need in terms of magical or psychological abilities.

Here's that quote about Tyrion flying; he pretends to use the wrong verb then correct himself, but of course, he's typing, not speaking, so there's no mistake!

http://grrm.livejournal.com/16495.html

woah, how have I not seen this before?  So that's all the proof we need right? GRRM just said Tyrion will fly lol. Discussion over AJT is real.

 

@Lord Varys  I really like what you said upthread about Barristan coming to Tyrion and pressuring him to try and mount a Dragon.  It makes perfect sense.  Barristan firmly believes that only Targ's ride dragons.  There is a quote or 2 where he speculates about Dany and her family.  Anyway this is a genius way to do it.  They are in the heat of battle, Viserion is wounded, maybe the Yunkai'i break through the lines or something and Barristan needs a quick way to stop the invaders.  he's like; 'Look Tyrion I know this is crazy but I saw your mom sleep with Aerys a few times, please go see if that Dragon likes you, just for fun until Dany gets back.

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Reasons why Tyrion is Tywin's son : Because it is good writing. 

Reasons why Tyrion is not a Targaryen : Because GRRM is a good author, and good author's don't write fan fiction. It doesn't advance the plot if he is a Targ and it just makes no sense. 

Also, he could still be a dragon rider, but he is not a Targaryen, Cersei and Jaime are more likely to be Targaryen's by the timeline, but I'm guessing they aren't either. However, Cersei as the third dragon rider would really mess some things up. 

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On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Reasons why Tyrion is Tywin's son : Because it is good writing. 

Reasons why Tyrion is not a Targaryen : Because GRRM is a good author, and good author's don't write fan fiction. It doesn't advance the plot if he is a Targ and it just makes no sense. 

Also, he could still be a dragon rider, but he is not a Targaryen, Cersei and Jaime are more likely to be Targaryen's by the timeline, but I'm guessing they aren't either. However, Cersei as the third dragon rider would really mess some things up. 

Obviously the idea that it wouldn't be good writing to have Tyrion turn out to not be Tywin's biological child is completely subjective. Considering that the hints for AJT are in every book including the world book, I think it would be a complete letdown for there to be no pay off after so much set up. I won't be so arrogant as to call it bad writing, but Tyrion being Tywin's is certainly the most boring outcome in comparison to AJT because it doesn't add anything new to the story. AJT OTOH opens up loads of possibilities not to mention fascinating backstory. 

In terms of the narrative and what we know of the characters, the AJT theory explains quite a bit and certainly goes in line with what the books have put out there. I feel like it answers so many questions.

The timeline revealed in the world book actually makes AJT more likely whereas it pretty much splashed cold water over the idea that Jaime and Cersei could be Aerys's. The world book could have taken the AJT idea off of the table all together but instead it only fanned the flames in a major way.

It's very strange to me how people still see Ned as Jon's father even though they know his biological father is likely Rhaegar, but don't extend the same attitude towards Tyrion and Tywin. Nobody ever says that the Jon/Ned relationship is ruined by the idea of RLJ. Ned's paternal relationship with Jon doesn't magically go away just because Ned wasn't his biological father. Ned raised Jon and Jon looks to Ned's example as he would to a father figure and Jon is, unsurprisingly, very much like Ned. How is it any different with Tyrion? Tywin raised Tyrion and was his only parent. Tyrion having a different biological father doesn't make their relationship go away. It's still incredibly complex and only becomes more complex with the reveal.

Tyrion being Tywin's biological son doesn't satisfy any of the elements that make AJT make sense as a theory. The connections make less sense and become less interesting especially his relationships with Dany and Jon. These relationships become a lot more special if AJT is true. 

Tyrion isn't the only character the AJT would end up impacting. 

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@Rhaechyll Targaryen

Exactly. I might add that I find the idea of Tyrion being Aerys' son and technically a bastard much more interesting that the Jon Snow story because I still remember being somewhat underwhelmed when I realized that the boy was most likely not Ned's bastard. That actually ruined the whole 'unwanted bastard son proves his worth against the odds' plot that is actually at the core of Jon Snow's story.

The overall aristocratic/elitist reading of the story will make it very likely that a lot of people interpreting the story in the end will focus more on Jon Snow's royal blood and the 'hidden prince' part of his story than on the way he is actually portrayed.

After all, the fact still is that nobody knows who he truly is and nobody interacting with him suspects anything.

However, I see the revelation of Jon's true parentage having severe effects on him and his self-image. I think I'd feel betrayed by my so-called legal father because he made me live a somewhat miserable/less than ideal life by raising me as his bastard. Ned Stark's decisions greatly contributed to the deaths of my biological father and mother (and all my other kin on the Targaryen side of the family) and - much more importantly - they ripped the Stark family apart in the beginning of AGoT and caused both Ned's and Robb's deaths. I think it will be very difficult for Jon Snow to overcome that kind of resentment.

Not to mention that Jon's own ego/ambitions will be more than hurt by realizing that he falsely seen as a bastard by Robb and his half-siblings who actually should have deferred and submitted to him considering that he was born a royal prince.

Ned Stark took all of that from him, not to mention that he also tricked him out of his birth right.

Granted, he might buy the whole 'safety issues' part of Ned's plan but, well, I think he will still be very pissed that Ned didn't even tell him the truth when he joined the NW.

In Tyrion's case the revelation of the true parentage could actually help Tyrion to come to terms with himself and his legal father, Tywin. Tyrion will finally understand why Tywin could not love him, and he might even realize that he did not despise him as much as he always thought because then he would most likely have killed Tyrion. And Tyrion certainly will be able to put himself into Tywin's shoes for a moment, asking himself honestly whether he would raised another man's bastard as his own trueborn son. I actually don't see Tyrion doing such a thing.

But aside from all that the more important point is how both origin stories connect with future Targaryen plot lines. And there is a lot more to be gained from that if Dany, Jon Snow, and Tyrion are interrelated rather than just coming together by the need of the plot. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Rhaechyll Targaryen

Exactly. I might add that I find the idea of Tyrion being Aerys' son and technically a bastard much more interesting that the Jon Snow story because I still remember being somewhat underwhelmed when I realized that the boy was most likely not Ned's bastard. That actually ruined the whole 'unwanted bastard son proves his worth against the odds' plot that is actually at the core of Jon Snow's story.

The overall aristocratic/elitist reading of the story will make it very likely that a lot of people interpreting the story in the end will focus more on Jon Snow's royal blood and the 'hidden prince' part of his story than on the way he is actually portrayed.

After all, the fact still is that nobody knows who he truly is and nobody interacting with him suspects anything.

However, I see the revelation of Jon's true parentage having severe effects on him and his self-image. I think I'd feel betrayed by my so-called legal father because he made me live a somewhat miserable/less than ideal life by raising me as his bastard. Ned Stark's decisions greatly contributed to the deaths of my biological father and mother (and all my other kin on the Targaryen side of the family) and - much more importantly - they ripped the Stark family apart in the beginning of AGoT and caused both Ned's and Robb's deaths. I think it will be very difficult for Jon Snow to overcome that kind of resentment.

Not to mention that Jon's own ego/ambitions will be more than hurt by realizing that he falsely seen as a bastard by Robb and his half-siblings who actually should have deferred and submitted to him considering that he was born a royal prince.

Ned Stark took all of that from him, not to mention that he also tricked him out of his birth right.

Granted, he might buy the whole 'safety issues' part of Ned's plan but, well, I think he will still be very pissed that Ned didn't even tell him the truth when he joined the NW.

In Tyrion's case the revelation of the true parentage could actually help Tyrion to come to terms with himself and his legal father, Tywin. Tyrion will finally understand why Tywin could not love him, and he might even realize that he did not despise him as much as he always thought because then he would most likely have killed Tyrion. And Tyrion certainly will be able to put himself into Tywin's shoes for a moment, asking himself honestly whether he would raised another man's bastard as his own trueborn son. I actually don't see Tyrion doing such a thing.

But aside from all that the more important point is how both origin stories connect with future Targaryen plot lines. And there is a lot more to be gained from that if Dany, Jon Snow, and Tyrion are interrelated rather than just coming together by the need of the plot. 

Lord Varys

Let me start by saying that you and I have long agreed on the Tyrion is a Targ theory. A theory which I find to be beyond speculation, and to be all but confirmed.

With that said, I have to comment on the post you made above, focusing on how Jon would react to the revelation of his identity. And I can only say that I totally disagree.

To me, I think your assessment can best be explained by the "Targaryen focused" paradigm from which I believe you view this series. Probably informed by your great interest in the Princess and the Queen and other historical Targaryen focused details that Martin has shared with us, and which you obviously feel are central to this story.

However, I believe that this blinds you slightly to the non-Targaryen  protagonists of this tale. From my Stark-based perspective I believe that Jon will react in the opposite way to how you depicted it, to the revelation of his parentage.

I think he is so much a Stark in upbringing, in mindset and in his very being, that he will feel shame in realizing he is offspring of the Mad King, of the villain that kidnapped his mother, Ned's beloved sister. Of the grandfather that roasted his other grandfather alive and forced his uncle to strangle himself to try and save him. Remember that the entire North's narrative is that the Targaryens were the evil Empire, the Palpatine's and Darth Vader's of this story. Ned was the hero, defeating the evil Targaryens in vengeance for what they did to Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna. Imagine in such a scenario finding out that you are actually related to these evil villains.

I think Jon will feel initial revulsion at realizing that he is a vile Targaryen. Of course, he will make peace with it, eventually, and then embrace it to use it in service of his goal to save the North and all of Westeros from the Others. But his love for Ned and for the Starks runs so deep that I think it is utterly inconceivable that his reaction will be something along the lines of: "Damn, I could have been a Targareyn Prince all along instead of a Stark bastard."

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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