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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.9

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I posted this on another thread that some of you are following, but I'll post it here on the main A+J=T thread as well, since this one is where the bulk of the info is stored.

Dany names her dragons for her husband and her brothers.

Drogon for Drogo...  Rhaegal for Rhaegar and Viserion for Viserys

However...take a look at Vise rion...VISE for Viserys and RION for Tyrion

Coincidence?...in aSoIaF? not hardly...

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On October 19, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Balerion's Whiskers said:

I posted this on another thread that some of you are following, but I'll post it here on the main A+J=T thread as well, since this one is where the bulk of the info is stored.

Dany names her dragons for her husband and her brothers.

Drogon for Drogo...  Rhaegal for Rhaegar and Viserion for Viserys

However...take a look at Vise rion...VISE for Viserys and RION for Tyrion

Coincidence?...in aSoIaF? not hardly...

Bi-lal kaifa!

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He had almost revealed himself then and there, but something stopped him—caution, cowardice, instinct, call it what you will. He could not imagine Barristan the Bold greeting him with anything but hostility. Selmy had never approved of Jaime's presence in his precious Kingsguard. Before the rebellion, the old knight thought him too young and untried; afterward, he had been known to say that the Kingslayer should exchange that white cloak for a black one. And his own crimes were worse. Jaime had killed a madman. Tyrion had put a quarrel through the groin of his own sire, a man Ser Barristan had known and served for years. He might have chanced it all the same, but then Penny had landed a blow on his shield and the moment was gone, never to return. (Tyrion XI, ADWD 57)

Tyrion describes “his own sire" as "a man Ser Barristan had known and served for years.” It's funny how that description applies just as well to Aerys (who is referenced in the previous sentence) as it does to Tywin, if not more so. In fact, this comment is sandwiched between two Barristan chapters where he thinks about how he's both known and served "many kings," and Aerys is mentioned each time:

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Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing. (The Queensguard, ADWD 55)

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Ser Barristan glanced toward the throne. He had served so many kings, he could not help but imagine how they might have reacted to this provocation. Aerys would have flinched away in horror, likely cutting himself on the barbs of the Iron Throne, then shrieked at his swordsmen to cut the Yunkishmen to pieces. Robert would have shouted for his hammer to repay Bloodbeard in kind. Even Jaehaerys, reckoned weak by many, would have ordered the arrest of Bloodbeard and the Yunkish slavers. (The Discarded Knight, ADWD 59)

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Jaime had killed a madman. Tyrion had put a quarrel through the groin of his own sire, a man Ser Barristan had known and served for years.

Edited by Shmedricko
Reworded and rearranged to make my point clearer

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On 11/1/2016 at 2:24 AM, Shmedricko said:

Jaime had killed a madman. Tyrion had put a quarrel through the groin of his own sire, a man Ser Barristan had known and served for years.

I see what you're getting at here, but this particular example is unconvincing as evidence.

The full sentence is 'Tyrion had put a quarrel through the groin of his own sire, a man Ser Barristan had known and served for years.'  However, the cause of Aerys's death was not an arrow but a sword.  You're just cherry-picking the sentence to suit your purpose, conveniently ignoring the parts that don't fit!

While we're playing with words, perhaps Jaime not Tyrion is Aerys's son.  Just transpose your own unbolded parts of the two sentences above to give:

'Tyrion had put a quarrel through the groin of a madman.'

'Jaime had killed his own sire, a man Ser Barristan had known and served for years.'

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@UnmaskedLurker @Lost Melnibonean @Ser Creighton

 

Guys!!! I am not sure if this is canon, but a poster on another thread brought this to my attention. On the asoiaf wiki, on Viserion's page it has this; 

 

 "Viserion has a roar that would send a hundred lions running. "

 

It does say 'Citation needed' as well, so I have no idea where this came from, but if GRRM wrote that, then that settles AJT once and for all.  Tyrion is gonna send the 'Lions' aka Lannisters running, amIright?

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12 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Guys!!! I am not sure if this is canon, but a poster on another thread brought this to my attention. On the asoiaf wiki, on Viserion's page it has this; 

 

 "Viserion has a roar that would send a hundred lions running. "

 

It does say 'Citation needed' as well, so I have no idea where this came from, but if GRRM wrote that, then that settles AJT once and for all.  Tyrion is gonna send the 'Lions' aka Lannisters running, amIright?

Here's the quote:

Quote

The dragon came down between the Dornishmen and the door with a roar that would have sent a hundred lions running. His head moved side to side as he inspected the intruders—Dornishmen, Windblown, Caggo. Last and longest the beast stared at Pretty Meris, sniffing. The woman, Quentyn realized. He knows that she is female. He is looking for Daenerys. He wants his mother and does not understand why she’s not here.

Quentyn wrenched free of Gerris’s grip. “Viserion,” he called. The white one is Viserion. For half a heartbeat he was afraid he’d gotten it wrong. “Viserion,” he called again, fumbling for the whip hanging from his belt. She cowed the black one with a whip. I need to do the same. (The Dragontamer, ADWD)

And another Viserion-lion connection:

Quote

Her hair had burned away in Drogo's pyre, so her handmaids garbed her in the skin of the hrakkar Drogo had slain, the white lion of the Dothraki sea. Its fearsome head made a hood to cover her naked scalp, its pelt a cloak that flowed across her shoulders and down her back. The cream-colored dragon sunk sharp black claws into the lion's mane and coiled its tail around her arm, while Ser Jorah took his accustomed place by her side. (Daenerys I, ACOK)

Edited by Shmedricko

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We can start with Viserion's birth:

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(...) bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rockpale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world (...)

And Dany sees him as a big cat:

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The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. "You're lazy," she told him, scratching under his jaw.

 

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On 11/5/2016 at 2:23 AM, Shmedricko said:

Here's the quote:

And another Viserion-lion connection:

 

On 11/5/2016 at 4:46 AM, Jo Maltese said:

We can start with Viserion's birth:

And Dany sees him as a big cat:

 

Awesomesauce to both of these!!!!! thanks guys :)

I'm going to check, but are any of these cat or lion references applied to the other 2 dragons at any point? or just Viserion?

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On 2/22/2016 at 10:09 AM, UnmaskedLurker said:

- Born deformed and described to have had a tail (similar to certain still-born Targaryens, perhaps including Rhaego).

This point has been brought up a lot, but I've never actually seen all the relevant quotes put side by side, so in this post I'm attempting to do that. I've colour-coded similar words or descriptions which are shared in the accounts of both Tyrion's birth and the birth of a stillborn Targaryen. If there are any birth descriptions that I'm missing, let me know and I'll add them. Note, though, that I'm not including every mention of a Targaryen stillbirth or miscarriage, only the ones that are described in some fashion.

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He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. "They say the child was …"

She waited, but Ser Jorah could not say it. His face grew dark with shame. He looked half a corpse himself.

"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi." (Daenerys IX, AGOT)

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"Your skies were too grey, your wines too sweet, your women too chaste, your food too bland . . . and you yourself were the greatest disappointment of all."

"I had just been born. What did you expect of me?"

"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been born to the King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."

"Famine, plague, and war, no doubt." Tyrion gave a sour smile. "It's always famine, plague, and war. Oh, and winter, and the long night that never ends."

"All that," said Prince Oberyn, "and your father's fall as well. Lord Tywin had made himself greater than King Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man."

"I try, but he refuses to learn." Tyrion gave a sigh. "But do go on, I pray you. I love a good tale."

"And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's. Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye, and lion's claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's."

"Life would be much simpler if men could fuck themselves, don't you agree? And I can think of a few times when claws and teeth might have proved useful. Even so, I begin to see the nature of your complaint."

Bronn gave out with a chuckle, but Oberyn only smiled. "We might never have seen you at all but for your sweet sister. You were never seen at table or hall, though sometimes at night we could hear a baby howling down in the depths of the Rock. You did have a monstrous great voice, I must grant you that. You would wail for hours, and nothing would quiet you but a woman's teat."

[...]

"Cersei even undid your swaddling clothes to give us a better look," the Dornish prince continued. "You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp. Perhaps your head was larger than most . . . but there was no tail, no beard, neither teeth nor claws, and nothing between your legs but a tiny pink cock. After all the wonderful whispers, Lord Tywin's Doom turned out to be just a hideous red infant with stunted legs. Elia even made the noise that young girls make at the sight of infants, I'm sure you've heard it. The same noise they make over cute kittens and playful puppies. I believe she wanted to nurse you herself, ugly as you were. When I commented that you seemed a poor sort of monster, your sister said, 'He killed my mother,' and twisted your little cock so hard I thought she was like to pull it off. You shrieked, but it was only when your brother Jaime said, 'Leave him be, you're hurting him,' that Cersei let go of you. 'It doesn't matter,' she told us. 'Everyone says he's like to die soon. He shouldn't even have lived this long.'"

The sun was shining bright above them, and the day was pleasantly warm for autumn, but Tyrion Lannister went cold all over when he heard that. My sweet sister. He scratched at the scar of his nose and gave the Dornishman a taste of his "evil eye." Now why would he tell such a tale? Is he testing me, or simply twisting my cock as Cersei did, so he can hear me scream? "Be sure and tell that story to my father. It will delight him as much as it did me. The part about my tail, especially. I did have one, but he had it lopped off." (Tyrion V, ASOS)

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"At Oldtown we learned of your mother's death, and the monstrous child she had borne." (Tyrion X, ASOS)

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A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak, but finally she gave birth to the son Prince Daemon had so long desired—but the babe was twisted and malformed, and died within the hour. Nor did his mother long survive him. Her grueling labor had drained all of Lady Laena’s strength, and grief weakened her still further, making her helpless before the onset of childbed fever. (The Rogue Prince)

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Maegor's wars against them were further compounded by his many marriages, as he strove to produce an heir. Yet no matter how many women he wedded—or bedded—he found himself childless. He made brides of women whom he had widowed—women of proved fertility—but the only children born of his seed proved monstrosities: misshapen, eyeless, limbless, or having the parts of man and woman both. His descent into true madness, some say, began with the first of these abominations.

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Alys became queen after Maegor brought her back from Pentos. She was the first woman to become pregnant by the king in the year 48 AC, but she lost the babe soon after. What was expelled from her womb was a monstrosity, eyeless and twisted, and in his fury Maegor blamed and executed her midwives, septas, and the Grand Maester Desmond.

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After seven days of mourning, Elinor was summoned to wed Maegor. She, too, became pregnant, and like Alys before her, she gave birth to a stillborn abomination said to have been born eyeless and with small wings. She survived that monstrous labor, however, and was one of the two wives who survived the king.

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Tall and slender, Lady Jeyne had been wed to Lord Alyn Tarbeck, who died with the rebels at the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. Having given him a posthumous son, her fecundity was proven and she was being courted by the son of the Lord of Casterly Rock when the king sent for her. In 47 AC she was with child, but three moons before the child was due, her labor began, and from her womb came another stillborn monster. She did not survive the child for long. (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Maegor I)

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In 120 AC, Laena was brought to bed again with child, and delivered the son that Daemon had always desired. What was drawn from her womb was twisted and deformed, however, and died shortly after birth. Laena, too, soon expired. (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I)

Quote

On Dragonstone, no cheers were heard. Instead, screams echoed through the halls and stairwells of Sea Dragon Tower, and down from the queen's apartments where Rhaenyra Targaryen strained and shuddered in her third day of labor. The child had not been due for another turn of the moon, but the tidings from King's Landing had driven the princess into a black fury, and her rage seemed to bring on the birth, as if the babe inside her were angry too, and fighting to get out. The princess shrieked curses all through her labor, calling down the wroth of the gods upon her half brothers and their mother, the queen, and detailing the torments she would inflict upon them before she would let them die. She cursed the child inside her too, Mushroom tells us. "Get out," she screamed, clawing at her swollen belly as her maester and her midwife tried to restrain her. "Monster, monster, get out, get out, GET OUT!"

When the babe at last came forth, she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been, and a stubby, scaled tail. Or so Mushroom describes her. The dwarf tells us that it was he who carried the little thing to the yard for burning. The dead girl had been named Visenya, Princess Rhaenyra announced the next day, when milk of the poppy had blunted the edge of her pain. "She was my only daughter, and they killed her. They stole my crown and murdered my daughter, and they shall answer for it." (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon II)

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In 273 AC, however, Lady Joanna was taken to childbed once again at Casterly Rock, where she died delivering Lord Tywin's second son. Tyrion, as the babe was named, was a malformed, dwarfish babe born with stunted legs, an oversized head, and mismatched, demonic eyes (some reports also suggested he had a tail, which was lopped off at his lord father's command). Lord Tywin's Doom, the smallfolk called this ill-made creature, and Lord Tywin's Bane. Upon hearing of his birth, King Aerys infamously said, "The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last." (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II)

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His lordship suffered great personal loss as well, for his beloved wife, Lady Joanna, died in 273 AC whilst giving birth to a hideously deformed child. (TWOIAF - The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons)

Edited to add: From The Sons of the Dragon:

Spoiler
Quote

During the third moon of her confinement, however, Lady Alys began to bleed heavily from the womb and lost the child. When King Maegor came to see the stillbirth, he was horrified to find the boy a monster, with twisted limbs, a huge head, and no eyes. “This cannot be my son,” he roared in anguish.

Quote

Three moons before she was due, Queen Jeyne was brought to bed by a sudden onset of labor pains, and was delivered of a stillborn child as monstrous as the one Alys Harroway had birthed, a legless and armless creature possessed of both male and female genitals. Nor did the mother long survive the child.

Quote

The moon turned and turned again, and in the black of night Queen Elinor too was delivered of a malformed and stillborn child, an eyeless boy born with rudimentary wings. (The Sons of the Dragon)

 

A couple of notes:

-The stillborn Targaryens are often described as "twisted". Although Tyrion isn't described as such in the passages about his birth (unless there's some I'm missing), he is referred to as "twisted" many times elsewhere in the text.

-The passage about Rhaenyra's stillbirth is a near-exact quote from The Princess and the Queen, but I included the version from TWOIAF because it mentions a dwarf, Mushroom, which might make it additionally relevant to AJT.

-I also wanted to stress this connection:

Quote

"Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's."

Quote

He made brides of women whom he had widowed—women of proved fertility—but the only children born of his seed proved monstrosities: misshapen, eyeless, limbless, or having the parts of man and woman both.

This fits right in with Maester Aemon's comment that "Dragons are neither male nor female [...] but now one and now the other", as well as the fact that the hermaphrodite Sweets has violet eyes. I mentioned these in conjunction with the rumors about Tyrion in this post, but at the time I wasn't aware of the quote about Maegor's children.

Edited by Shmedricko
Added quotes from The Sons of the Dragon

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On 10/19/2016 at 3:21 PM, Balerion's Whiskers said:

I posted this on another thread that some of you are following, but I'll post it here on the main A+J=T thread as well, since this one is where the bulk of the info is stored.

Dany names her dragons for her husband and her brothers.

Drogon for Drogo...  Rhaegal for Rhaegar and Viserion for Viserys

However...take a look at Vise rion...VISE for Viserys and RION for Tyrion

Coincidence?...in aSoIaF? not hardly...

 

On 11/4/2016 at 3:13 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

@UnmaskedLurker @Lost Melnibonean @Ser Creighton

 

Guys!!! I am not sure if this is canon, but a poster on another thread brought this to my attention. On the asoiaf wiki, on Viserion's page it has this; 

 

 "Viserion has a roar that would send a hundred lions running. "

 

It does say 'Citation needed' as well, so I have no idea where this came from, but if GRRM wrote that, then that settles AJT once and for all.  Tyrion is gonna send the 'Lions' aka Lannisters running, amIright?

Sorry for my long absence. I needed a break and was afraid to log on at all for fear of being "sucked in against my will" (or something like that).

I like the new evidence above that has been uncovered. Anything else I have been missing over the last few months?

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Just now, UnmaskedLurker said:

 

Sorry for my long absence. I needed a break and was afraid to log on at all for fear of being "sucked in against my will" (or something like that).

I like the new evidence above that has been uncovered. Anything else I have been missing over the last few months?

Hi!!!! Happy Holidays!!! I also took a long break but recently got sucked back in lol. Still just waiting for that release date and the 2nd coming of Christ I guess.

One new thing I read somewhere recently is that if AJT is true it means that GoT is a book of POV's from ONLY Starks and Targaryens (minus the prologue).  So that's pretty cool.

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3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Hi!!!! Happy Holidays!!! I also took a long break but recently got sucked back in lol. Still just waiting for that release date and the 2nd coming of Christ I guess.

One new thing I read somewhere recently is that if AJT is true it means that GoT is a book of POV's from ONLY Starks and Targaryens (minus the prologue).  So that's pretty cool.

It is not only "cool" but it is basically the point I thought I have been trying to make for years. Essentially, this series is about two families -- the Starks and the Targaryens -- and how they interact and come together to "save the world". Many people try to argue that the Lannisters are also "main characters" in the books, but while they are critical and important characters -- I have never believed that the books are "about the Lannisters" -- they simply have important roles to play in pushing parts of the plot forward.

But we know that the "big 5" (or maybe "big 6" with Sansa) are the main characters, so it is natural that GoT has them as the POV characters plus certain members of their immediate family (like Ned). GRRM keeps growing the world in later books (so more POV characters needed) -- but most of the best clues are still in GoT (largely because he thought he would only be writing 3 books during most of the time he was writing GoT -- so he had no time to waste in getting the clues going).

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33 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

It is not only "cool" but it is basically the point I thought I have been trying to make for years. Essentially, this series is about two families -- the Starks and the Targaryens -- and how they interact and come together to "save the world". Many people try to argue that the Lannisters are also "main characters" in the books, but while they are critical and important characters -- I have never believed that the books are "about the Lannisters" -- they simply have important roles to play in pushing parts of the plot forward.

But we know that the "big 5" (or maybe "big 6" with Sansa) are the main characters, so it is natural that GoT has them as the POV characters plus certain members of their immediate family (like Ned). GRRM keeps growing the world in later books (so more POV characters needed) -- but most of the best clues are still in GoT (largely because he thought he would only be writing 3 books during most of the time he was writing GoT -- so he had no time to waste in getting the clues going).

Oh I totally agree, Ice and Fire (nuff said).  And yeah almost every theory and plotline has roots in GoT.  Even AJT, it's all over that first chapter between Jon and Tyrion.  This is clearly why Tyrion is the most interesting Lannister right from the start, he casts a shadow tall as a king and he is separated from all the other dickhead Lannisters. None of the rest of them gave Jon a 2nd thought.  It's like walking right by the lost Romanov and not realizing who it is, but Tyrion specifically seeks him out to have words and form a bond (clearly the 2 most important people at Winterfell, like a VIP room).

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3 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Welcome back @UnmaskedLurker . We missed you (and I fully accept / understand your reasons in writing).

EDIT: Oh and you too @Suzanna Stormborn :P 

And Merry Christmas to all AJT believers (is this too soon?)

Hello @Jo Maltese yes I am back in a position where I have free time to forum (verb) these days again.

Happy Christmas!!!  I think this time next year maybe Ill make some AJT t-shirts.  Ill send all you guys one if we end up being right (which obviously we are, just waiting on the George to confirm it).B)

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On 9-12-2016 at 3:52 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

 

Sorry for my long absence. I needed a break and was afraid to log on at all for fear of being "sucked in against my will" (or something like that).

I like the new evidence above that has been uncovered. Anything else I have been missing over the last few months?

UnmaskedLurker, please check out the latest posts in this thread:

Be advised that this link leads to the show forums and the page contains spoilers.

Edited by Wouter
Added spoiler warning

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15 hours ago, Wouter said:

UnmaskedLurker, please check out the latest posts in this thread:

 

Yes, I saw those posts. We cannot really discuss those "spoilers" here, and I did not respond in that thread because I just don't really have much to add -- we will have to wait and see (really until 2018, as I don't think this issue is likely to be addressed directly in 2017).

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