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And Tyrion does not need to be Tywin's son to be a Lannister: Joanna was a Lannister anyway.

Also, think of Jon and Eddard: Jon is NOT Eddard's son... And yet he is so much like him because Eddard raised him.

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion will shape up to be another Aerys, not Tywin, Jamie is Tywin in the making.

I disagree, imo Tyrion is cut from the cloth Tywin, Viserys, Jaehaerys etc. And aunt Gemma's words to Jamie where both literal (unbeknownst to her) and figurative. Jamie is not another Tywin, no matter how much Tywin wanted him to be. He's a man of honor, at heart. Its Cersei who's her fathers daughter. She wants to believe shes Tywin but shes really just a stupid and vain individual like Aerys once was. The deaths of her children/imprisonment will bring her to the same point her father reached. 

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It makes no sense to cite the subjective statements of various people who may not know the objective truth about somebody's biological parentage as confirmation or indication that the legal father is also the biological father.

Else anybody close to Jon/Ned - like Catelyn, for instance - referencing similarities between these two should be all the confirmation we need that Eddard Stark is indeed Jon Snow's father.

Genna Lannister may very well think that Tywin is Tyrion's biological as well as legal father. If the boy was conceived in KL during the anniversary tourney then Genna may not have even been in the area when that happened. And Tywin was not the kind of man to share details of his private life with anyone, including his own family.

And this series also deals in no small degree with the nurture part of upbringing - in fact, Tywin's constant abuse of Tyrion is the crucial aspect of their story. Tyrion does not become in any way 'like Tywin' because they are father and son biologically, but because Tywin constantly taught the boy 'lessons' reinforcing the fact that he must not show any weakness - this is why Tyrion actually ends up killing Tywin.

Edited by Lord Varys

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7 minutes ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

I disagree, imo Tyrion is cut from the cloth Tywin, Viserys, Jaehaerys etc. And aunt Gemma's words to Jamie where both literal (unbeknownst to her) and figurative. Jamie is not another Tywin, no matter how much Tywin wanted him to be. He's a man of honor, at heart. Its Cersei who's her fathers daughter. She wants to believe shes Tywin but shes really just a stupid and vain individual like Aerys once was. The deaths of her children/imprisonment will bring her to the same point her father reached. 

Have you even read the 9 threads? Or the OP in full? Have you read TWoIaF? Have you read F&B? We have addressed this argument millions of time, so I will not try to make you see the Lord of Light (but Lord Varys will, I'm sure).

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1 hour ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

I disagree, imo Tyrion is cut from the cloth Tywin, Viserys, Jaehaerys etc. And aunt Gemma's words to Jamie where both literal (unbeknownst to her) and figurative. Jamie is not another Tywin, no matter how much Tywin wanted him to be. He's a man of honor, at heart. Its Cersei who's her fathers daughter. She wants to believe shes Tywin but shes really just a stupid and vain individual like Aerys once was. The deaths of her children/imprisonment will bring her to the same point her father reached. 

Gemma is wrong. The whole point of that conversation is that she is wrong, or will be proved wrong. Gemma was not talking in terms of honour, she gives a description of Tywin before she tells Jaime he isn't Tywin, and it has nothing to do with honour, or good or bad or anything else that people like to project onto that quote.

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"Did you love him?" Jaime heard himself ask.

His aunt looked at him strangely. "I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became . . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"

This is how Gemma views Tywin. The purpose of this passage is so we know what she is talking about when she says to Jaime that he isn't Tywin. Mostly it is about being a protector.

She's wrong, the reason her quote exists is to identify where Jaime's arc started from. Where it is headed Jaime proves in that very chapter when he asks if his aunt would still say he was not Tywin's son. And the short little stabs GRRM started introducing after his ASOS arc.

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"There is that risk," conceded Jaime. "Especially if his patience runs thin this time, and he elects to storm the gate."

Cersei gave him a lingering look. "You know," she said, "for a moment you sounded quite like Father."

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Snow in the riverlands. If it was snowing here, it could well be snowing on Lannisport as well, and on King's Landing. Winter is marching south, and half our granaries are empty. Any crops still in the fields were doomed. There would be no more plantings, no more hopes of one last harvest. He found himself wondering what his father would do to feed the realm, before he remembered that Tywin Lannister was dead.

Jaime is begrudgingly becoming Tywin. The point is there has to be a Tywin, someone has to be willing to get their hands dirty and do the dishonourable shit for the sake of the real. Someone must bear that responsibility and be willing to be the villain when needed, and with Tywin gone it is on Jaime, because there's no-one else.

 

Tyrion being Aerys is whole other arc not yet as neatly mapped as Jaime into Tywin, but consider his whole fall from grace and ADWD arc, does that seem Tywin like?

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Gemma is wrong. The whole point of that conversation is that she is wrong, or will be proved wrong. Gemma was not talking in terms of honour, she gives a description of Tywin before she tells Jaime he isn't Tywin, and it has nothing to do with honour, or good or bad or anything else that people like to project onto that quote.

This is how Gemma views Tywin. The purpose of this passage is so we know what she is talking about when she says to Jaime that he isn't Tywin. Mostly it is about being a protector.

 

Gemma likens Jamie to all to his uncles while claiming Tyrion to be more of Tywin's son. Jamie is a proud knight of the Kingsguard - Tyrion was born to rule. Jamie has more of Daemon Targaryen and Aemon the Dragonknight in him. Both of whom I see as having strong parallels to the Kingslayer. Jamie's words as quoted above, serve to show us jamie's creeping guilt over Tywin's death and how he can't hope to rely on him now that winters near, just as Gemma alluded to.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And this series also deals in no small degree with the nurture part of upbringing - in fact, Tywin constant abuse of Tyrion is the crucial aspect of their story. Tyrion does not become in any way 'like Tywin' because they are father and son biologically, but because Tywin constantly taught the boy 'lessons' reinforcing the fact that he must not show any weakness - this is why Tyrion actually ends up killing Tywin.

We know Grrm does indeed sometimes chooses to pass on traits to characters directly from their fathers and mothers and there no reason to assume that this couldn't apply to Tyrion and Cersei. When it comes to nurture, id have to argue that Tywin's lessons did nothing to make Tyrion more like Tywin rather all it did was reinforce the idea that Tywin hated him for being a dwarf.

Its because Tyrion had Tywin's problem solving skills (inherited and/or learned) that he knocked down any challenge he was faced with. Imo Tyrion didn't kill his dad because of fear of looking weak....he did it because he genuinely wasn't sure if his father would actually refrain from executing him and send him to the wall because he was never sure if Tywin ever loved him or not. This is essentially the tragedy of their relationship . The rest is just Tyrion trying to pretend that what he did was justified and that he was unbothered by what he'd done, despite being so (basically all of ADWD).

 

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3 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Gemma likens Jamie to all to his uncles while claiming Tyrion to be more of Tywin's son. Jamie is a proud knight of the Kingsguard - Tyrion was born to rule. Jamie has more of Daemon Targaryen and Aemon the Dragonknight in him. Both of whom I see as having strong parallels to the Kingslayer. Jamie's words as quoted above, serve to show us jamie's creeping guilt over Tywin's death and how he can't hope to rely on him now that winters near, just as Gemma alluded to.

Just no. He had Gemma liken Jaime as she'd know him since a child to the two uncles only to immediately go and disprove her point. She likens him to Tyg then he proves he isn't just a sword and can solve a problem without cutting it in half right there at RR, Tywin's theme song playing in the fucking background no less. Next chapter instead of having a laugh about holding Hos hostage as the old Jaime Gemma described would have done he goes on a Tywin rant at them. The Kevan comparison isn't one to be disproven soon.

GRRM doesn't have Jaime think on Tywin feeding the realm, and then have him take stock of everyone's provisions and think on harvests for any guilt nonsense. Nor does he punctuate a chapter's end by Cersei telling Jaime he sounds like Tywin without good reason.

Daemon is not a Jaime parallel. Aemon is but only the half of Jaime, the half that is a fighter and a knight and will do honourable heroic things. But a more complete parallel is Criston Cole, the kingmaker, best and worst of them, LC of the KG and Hand of the King.

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Genna knows pretty much nothing. After all, she also believes Jaime was somewhat like Kevan because he joined the KG - not knowing anything about Jaime's actual motivation to join the KG.

4 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

We know Grrm does indeed sometimes chooses to pass on traits to characters directly from their fathers and mothers and there no reason to assume that this couldn't apply to Tyrion and Cersei. When it comes to nurture, id have to argue that Tywin's lessons did nothing to make Tyrion more like Tywin rather all it did was reinforce the idea that Tywin hated him for being a dwarf.

Tyrion is definitely a Lannister on his mother's side, so whatever traits he inherited from this bloodline he could have inherited from Joanna and Jason and Gerold, etc. After all, Tywin also has little in common with his father Tytos, and whatever great Lannister traits he has inherited would have also skipped Tytos.

Even if Tyrion is Tywin's son he would still be his first cousin once removed. They are pretty closely related in any case.

One has to ask the question why George decided to make Tywin's wife Joanna his first cousin. That was a decision he made early one when the series was conceived, and unlike the decision to make Rickard Stark's wife Lyarra a Stark cousin, too, Joanna's family background was important for the plot from the start.

An obvious and interesting answer to this is that if Tyrion were indeed not Tywin's son he would still be a Lannister on his mother's side - just as Jon Snow is going to be a Stark on his mother's side, too, even if he were not Eddard Stark's son but rather Lyanna's son by Rhaegar.

4 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Its because Tyrion had Tywin's problem solving skills (inherited and/or learned) that he knocked down any challenge he was faced with. Imo Tyrion didn't kill his dad because of fear of looking weak....he did it because he genuinely wasn't sure if his father would actually refrain from executing him and send him to the wall because he was never sure if Tywin ever loved him or not. This is essentially the tragedy of their relationship . The rest is just Tyrion trying to pretend that what he did was justified and that he was unbothered by what he'd done, despite being so (basically all of ADWD).

I'd urge to actually reread key passages revolving around Tyrion's lessons and his relationship with his father. It is repeatedly mentioned that the twisted and cruel part of Tyrion's character goes back to those lessons. For instance, in ACoK Tyrion's threatens Cersei to do to Tommen what Cersei did to Alayaya, and later on he actually feels forced to go through with that because it is ingrained in him - thanks to Tywin's lessons - that making empty threats makes you look weak - and he must never look weak. That he doesn't treat Tommen this way has to do with the fact that he no longer holds him, not with the fact that he is merciful.

And it is the same when Tyrion decides to murder Tywin and when he later reflects on why he did that. He announced that he would shoot the man if were to ever refer to Tysha as a whore - and when Tywin did that he carried out his threat doing exactly what Tywin taught him to do.

In general, Tywin's ridiculous hatred of Tyrion is completely irrational. He treats the boy as his son - why can't he also see him as his heir and successor? Why is he so blind to the fact that Tyrion is the one child of his that shows real promise as politician/leader? In light of the fact that he treats him as a Lannister, brings him up and gives him all the training due to a Lannister of Casterly Rock it is very odd that he would not feel the slightest bit of pride that this dwarf son of his actually overcame many of the shortcomings of his birth to excel in the fields he could excel.

A man as perceptive and intelligent as Tywin should not have only seen that - as he sort of acknowledges when he names him Acting Hand - it should have also affected him on an emotional level as the boy's father. That it does not, that Tywin cannot see Tyrion's positive traits even after the role he played to keep Joffrey on the throne, is a very strange thing. Nobody demands that Tyrion should have become his favorite child, but the point to reach a new modus vivendi with the dwarf, a new relationship of sorts, would have been after the Blackwater.

That nothing of that sort happens can be very well explained by the idea that Tywin knew for a fact that Tyrion was Aerys' son, and that he only raised him as a Lannister and pretended he was his seed to honor the memory (and wishes) of his late beloved wife. Lady Joanna was a Lannister of Casterly Rock by birth, too, and as her son Tyrion had a right to be a Lannister, too. But no bastard of Aerys II would ever succeed Tywin Lannister as Lord of Casterly Rock. That's were Tywin drew the line. Nor could he ever pretend to love this malformed creature who killed his mother on his birth and who was a living reminder of either Joanna's infidelity (she may have had a consensual affair with Aerys) or her rape at the king's hand.

Any man in this world would have had severe issues loving a child conceived and born under such circumstances.

And that George really thinks about addresses situations such as those has become evident recently again during the exchange Jaehaerys I and his advisers have when they discuss the First Night. The main example Alysanne gives is about a man who couldn't cope with the fact that his bride was impregnated by the lord who claimed her maidenhead at their wedding. Tywin would be a better man than this guy, but in light of what happened at Tyrion's birth it is very obvious why he could never love this child - unlike, I'd think, if he had known/believed Tyrion was his seed. Then their relationship should have been better.

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16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Just no. He had Gemma liken Jaime as she'd know him since a child to the two uncles only to immediately go and disprove her point. She likens him to Tyg then he proves he isn't just a sword and can solve a problem without cutting it in half right there at RR, Tywin's theme song playing in the fucking background no less. Next chapter instead of having a laugh about holding Hos hostage as the old Jaime Gemma described would have done he goes on a Tywin rant at them. The Kevan comparison isn't one to be disproven soon

Tbh im not sure where your getting any of that from and it just seems like stretch your putting to much thought into her words here . Her point was simply  that the true "second Tywin" of the family wasn't his "first born" but rather Tyrion. She's worried because at that time, Tyrion was an enemy to house Lannister and was on the loose. Tyrion has it in him to bring them all down and she's worried.

16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

GRRM doesn't have Jaime think on Tywin feeding the realm, and then have him take stock of everyone's provisions and think on harvests for any guilt nonsense. Nor does he punctuate a chapter's end by Cersei telling Jaime he sounds like Tywin without good reason.

I can find plenty of dialoge with stronger hints pointing to Cersei and Jamie being Targs. If this is supposed to be proof of him being Tywin's seed I'd say it's kinda weak...

16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Daemon is not a Jaime parallel. Aemon is but only the half of Jaime, the half that is a fighter and a knight and will do honourable heroic things. But a more complete parallel is Criston Cole, the kingmaker, best and worst of them, LC of the KG and Hand of the King.

You expect these characters to be carbon copies of one another, when they are not. I was just making the point that if you want to look to the past for characters who parallel Jamie, those two would be some of the strongest ones to do so. I don't think the fact that they're both Targs is also something one should overlook.

If you can't see the strong parallels between Jamie and those two men, then I'm not sure if there's any point in arguing over it. 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Genna knows pretty much nothing. After all, she also believes Jaime was somewhat like Kevan because he joined the KG - not knowing anything about Jaime's actual motivation to join the KG.

Gennas one of the few people in the world that know Jamie best, as is emphasized in the entire chapter.

Yes Jamie joined for Cersei but I don't think it was ever a hard choice (as he admired the KG) and more importantly is that he chose to stay in white inspite of his father's disaproval. In this way Jamie is definitely like Kevin whom himself is fiercely loyal to House Lannister.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For instance, in ACoK Tyrion's threatens Cersei to do to Tommen what Cersei did to Alayaya, and later on he actually feels forced to go through with that because it is ingrained in him - thanks to Tywin's lessons - that making empty threats makes you look weak - and he must never look weak. That he doesn't treat Tommen this way has to do with the fact that he no longer holds him, not with the fact that he is merciful.

And it is the same when Tyrion decides to murder Tywin and when he later reflects on why he did that. He announced that he would shoot the man if were to ever refer to Tysha as a whore - and when Tywin did that he carried out his threat doing exactly what Tywin taught him to do.

“You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn’t tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you’re so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen . . . why would I harm Tommen? He’s a good lad, and mine own blood.”

Tyrion killing tommen would have been going overboard. He was just playing the part that Cersei wanted, in order to make her think she was in control.

“Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes.” If she thinks me such a monster, I’ll play the part for her.

In regards to Tywin's thoughts on Tyrion, I'd agree that he suspected Tyrions parantage but I don't feel as if he actually ever got confirmation, as it would have been impossible to test (save for with dragons).

I believe Tywin was aware of the Cersei and Jamie rumors even accepts that it may be true (the guy spent 20 years around targs and he knew Aerys better than anyone ) but Tywin would never admit to it out loud. He's able to accept the possibility that Cersei and Jamie are not his, because they are everything a father could want in Lannister heirs and the realm wouldn't know of his shame.

Tyrion on the other hand is an ugly creature. The walking and talking reminder of everthing bad in his life. Tywin can't even try to pretend Tyrions his and if Tyrion really was born with dragon malformations than it would have been even harder for him to not be reminded of Aerys every time he looked at him.

As I've said before I think the tragedy of their relationship is that Tyrion was truly is seed, dispite his connection to Aerys. 

“Dragons,” Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R’hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

". . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little.” She gave a sigh. “Who will protect us now?” Jaime kissed her cheek. “He left a son.” “Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.”"

 

 

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1 hour ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Tbh im not sure where your getting any of that from and it just seems like stretch your putting to much thought into her words here . Her point was simply  that the true "second Tywin" of the family wasn't his "first born" but rather Tyrion. She's worried because at that time, Tyrion was an enemy to house Lannister and was on the loose. Tyrion has it in him to bring them all down and she's worried.

I can find plenty of dialoge with stronger hints pointing to Cersei and Jamie being Targs. If this is supposed to be proof of him being Tywin's seed I'd say it's kinda weak...

You expect these characters to be carbon copies of one another, when they are not. I was just making the point that if you want to look to the past for characters who parallel Jamie, those two would be some of the strongest ones to do so. I don't think the fact that they're both Targs is also something one should overlook.

If you can't see the strong parallels between Jamie and those two men, then I'm not sure if there's any point in arguing over it. 

Gennas one of the few people in the world that know Jamie best, as is emphasized in the entire chapter.

You don't have a clue, you offer no textual grounding for anything you say and what's worse you don't seem to want to learn. But as I've already written it out before it's not too much effort and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

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"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast.

She is describing Jaime as she knows him, as he was before he lost a hand, met Brienne, was defeated in battle, learned of Cersei's betrayals and fell out with her. She hasn't seen him since any of this, she is describing him as he was in AGOT, before he began his arc. That's the point of the above sentence.

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You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you.

The charge that he fights like Tyg is to mean unlike Tywin he looks first to solve a problem by fighting. GRRM has Tyrion make the same point when talking about Westeros being ripe for the picking because it only has Cersei to protect it.

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My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule.

And again.

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His brother never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword.

And then Riverrun happens. Jaime cleverly unties a knot without unsheathing his sword, without a battle, without a fight, proving he has changed from how Gemma and Tyrion had known him. Ofcourse, he has to change, it is an arc and both characters have barely seen him and have had no chance to take stock of him since he has undergone change.

In case it wasn't understood he was doing the Tywin in opposition to Gemma's charge, GRRM makes it really obvious for us.

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Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

And then has Jaime order Tywin's theme song.

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"You could try." Jaime waited. When Edmure made no move to rise, he said, "I'll leave you to enjoy your food. Singer, play for our guest whilst he eats. You know the song, I trust."

"The one about the rain? Aye, my lord. I know it."

That Jaime,

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You smile like Gerion

smiles like Gerion is to say he doesn't take things seriously enough to be like Tywin. GRRM made this point the first time Jaime spoke in the series.
 

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"I do not like it," a woman was saying. There was a row of windows beneath him, and the voice was drifting out of the last window on this side. "You should be the Hand."

"Gods forbid," a man's voice replied lazily. "It's not an honor I'd want. There's far too much work involved." 

Bran hung, listening, suddenly afraid to go on. They might glimpse his feet if he tried to swing by.

"Don't you see the danger this puts us in?" the woman said. "Robert loves the man like a brother."

"Robert can barely stomach his brothers. Not that I blame him. Stannis would be enough to give anyone indigestion."

Jaime should be Hand, Tywin's post, Cersei says, for the purpose of protecting them, and Jaime makes jokes of it.

GRRM uses the chapter after Riverrun to show how Jaime has changed in this regard.

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Lord Tytos did not attempt to dissuade him. "Hoster can be ready to depart within the hour."

He was. The boy met Jaime by the stables, with a bedroll slung over one shoulder and a bundle of scrolls beneath his arm. He could not have been any older than sixteen, yet he was even taller than his father, almost seven feet of legs and shins and elbows, a gangling, gawky boy with a cowlick. "Lord Commander. I'm your hostage, Hoster. Hos, they call me." He grinned.

Does he think this is a lark? "Pray, who are they?"

"My friends. My brothers."

"I am not your friend and I am not your brother." That cleaned the grin off the boy's face. Jaime turned to Lord Tytos. "My lord, let there be no misunderstanding here. Lord Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, this woman Stoneheart … all these are outlaws and rebels, enemies to the king and all his leal subjects. If I should learn that you or yours are hiding them, protecting them, or assisting them in any way, I will not hesitate to send you your son's head. I hope you understand that. Understand this as well: I am not Ryman Frey."

"No." All trace of warmth had left Lord Blackwood's mouth. "I know who I am dealing with. Kingslayer."

The perfect opportunity to crack some jokes with Hos the hostage and smile like Gerion. But no, not anymore, this shit is serious, people really do die and suffer, so he puts on the Tywin face.

And if connecting the dots is still beyond one, GRRM made it even more blatant in TWOIAF. Jaime sorts out the Blackwoods and Brackens, the sticking point is a mill.

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"Buckle, Woodhedge, Honeytree and all its hives." He was forgetting one. "Oh, and Crossbow Ridge."

"A mill," said Bracken. "I must have a mill."

"Lord's Mill."

And what do you know, look what GRRM decided to include on Hand Tywin's greatest hits.

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When Lord Tywin adjudicated a border dispute between House Blackwood and House Bracken in favor of the Blackwoods, His Grace overruled him and gave the disputed mill to Lord Bracken.

 

Edited by chrisdaw

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On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 2:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

cYou can certainly think that, but the basis you have for thinking that is about as good as the claim that Aerys II is also the father of all of Rickard Stark's children as well as of Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure Tully. George has never commented on that, either, and there are basically no hints given that Cersei and Jaime could be Aerys' children.

Well, let me put it this way, I do not trust GRRM not to potentially write something into making it a physical possibility. He is already expanded this general story to the point he is obviously having trouble reigning in. Jaime/Cersei have so many Targ traits, personalities/behavior. I understand that many people want The Imp to ride a dragon, blah, blah, blah and maybe he is a Bastard but I feel like the hints in the writing so far in this story, ASOIAF, the core books tip GRRMs intentions with this paternity matter, if and only if he does go futher. Aunt Genna Lannister Frey, who strikes me as pretty clever and observant, sees Tyrion as Tywin in a smaller form.  Jaime's dream/visitation of his mother's ghost while standing vigil over his father's body. Jaime and Cersei being separated in the nursery when their mother discovers/finds out about their attempt to "couple". No word to Tywin to be mentioned as if it would somehow put a notion/idea/suspicion in his head is the vibe I got. 

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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Tyrion being Aerys's isn't some late idea, it is in the whole theme of

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Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."

Tywin would rather (begrudgingly) accept Tyrion as his son and Lannister than face the hard truth that Joanna didn't love him (and was not faithful to him). A situation that will repeat itself with Tyrion and Sansa.

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On 1/19/2019 at 3:50 AM, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Gennas one of the few people in the world that know Jamie best, as is emphasized in the entire chapter.

She is his aunt, she is not a person who knows him best. They didn't spend much time together after his childhood. Jaime squired at Crakehall, went to the Kingswood, and then he joined the KG gluing him to KL for most of his adult life - first under Aerys II and then under Robert.

There seem to have been some extended visits allowing him to bond with Tyrion, but nothing indicates he was particularly close to his aunt. And it is quite clear that she doesn't really understand what drives him.

On 1/19/2019 at 3:50 AM, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Yes Jamie joined for Cersei but I don't think it was ever a hard choice (as he admired the KG) and more importantly is that he chose to stay in white inspite of his father's disaproval. In this way Jamie is definitely like Kevin whom himself is fiercely loyal to House Lannister.

Jaime does not like to be treated like a pawn moved at the will of others. He does not like it that Cersei or Tywin make his decisions for him - he did not like it be named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in his absence, that men were named to the KG he supposedly commanded without first consulting him, and that his sister and father made plans for his future after the victory without so much as asking his opinion first.

This has little to do with loyalty of the type Kevan may or not be feeling - and we don't really know what drove Kevan. Brotherly loyalty or rather the realization that sticking to Tywin would allow him to raise as high as a younger brother of a great lord could possibly rise.

But to get back on track - Genna has no clue as to why Jaime joined the KG. His admiration for Ser Arthur Dayne had essentially nothing to do with that.

On 1/19/2019 at 3:50 AM, Aemon Darkbrother said:

“You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn’t tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you’re so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen . . . why would I harm Tommen? He’s a good lad, and mine own blood.”

Tyrion killing tommen would have been going overboard. He was just playing the part that Cersei wanted, in order to make her think she was in control.

“Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes.” If she thinks me such a monster, I’ll play the part for her.

 

You only cite the threats. You have to go to the passage when Tyrion learns that Alayaya has been whipped by Tywin. His thoughts make it clear that he feels he now has to treat Tommen in kind - that thing breaks down immediately since he then learns he no longer has Tommen, but the chances are not that low that he would have punished Tommen in kind to demonstrate he was not making weak threats.

Tyrion once was a kind boy but Tywin twisted him in no small degree. Tyrion consciously and unconsciously emulates Tywin due to all the lessons he learned.

On 1/19/2019 at 3:50 AM, Aemon Darkbrother said:

In regards to Tywin's thoughts on Tyrion, I'd agree that he suspected Tyrions parantage but I don't feel as if he actually ever got confirmation, as it would have been impossible to test (save for with dragons).

Oh, there wouldn't necessarily be a need for Tywin to test anything. All he would need to know that Tyrion is not his son is that Aerys and Joanna had sex around the time of Tyrion's conception and that he, Tywin Lannister, did not have sex with his lady wife in that particular time. And that this is the case is not impossible at all if Joanna and Aerys actually had a consensual affair - and even if not, Tywin and Joanna may have just been too occupied with other things during the anniversary tourney and then after the Aerys-Joanna thing Joanna was not exactly inclined to share the bed with Tywin afterwards.t

Dragons don't prove anything, by the way. Sure, the Lannisters apparently don't have the blood of the dragon officially but Tytos and/or Jason Lannister could easily enough have not been Lord Gerold's son(s) but rather the seed of Aegon V. Lady Rohanne Webber Osgrey Lannister has a history with Dunk and Egg, and she could certainly have had an affair with the latter.

If Tyrion became a dragonrider nobody does have to come to the conclusion that he is the son of Aerys II. They could find other ways to explain this.

On 1/19/2019 at 3:50 AM, Aemon Darkbrother said:

I believe Tywin was aware of the Cersei and Jamie rumors even accepts that it may be true (the guy spent 20 years around targs and he knew Aerys better than anyone ) but Tywin would never admit to it out loud. He's able to accept the possibility that Cersei and Jamie are not his, because they are everything a father could want in Lannister heirs and the realm wouldn't know of his shame.

Not sure what kind of rumors you are talking about here. Tywin certainly could have known about the twincest, but there are no rumors that the twins are Aerys' children in those books. None at all.

16 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Well, let me put it this way, I do not trust GRRM not to potentially write something into making it a physical possibility. He is already expanded this general story to the point he is obviously having trouble reigning in. Jaime/Cersei have so many Targ traits, personalities/behavior.

Not really. They are in love as twins, but that's something that can and does happen. The Targaryen practice incest but they are not carrying the trait of falling in love with their siblings in their blood. Cersei becoming unhinged somewhat is also not a trait exclusive to the Targaryens. Alannys Harlaw and her sister are unhinged, too, as were Catelyn (after Bran's death and later as Lady Stoneheart) and Lysa Tully. In fact, there are noteworthy parallels between Catelyn and Rhaenyra yet nobody seems to insist that Cat and Lysa must be Targaryen descendants/children of Aerys II - although that's certainly possible.

The idea that Cersei/Jaime are not Tywin's is an idea completely based on fan speculation. There is no concrete textual evidence whatsoever pointing in that direction. Unlike in Tyrion's case.

16 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I understand that many people want The Imp to ride a dragon, blah, blah, blah and maybe he is a Bastard but I feel like the hints in the writing so far in this story, ASOIAF, the core books tip GRRMs intentions with this paternity matter, if and only if he does go futher.

Just to clarify: Tyrion could ride a dragon without being Aerys' son. George can make that happen without going down that road.

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On 1/20/2019 at 10:48 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

 I understand that many people want The Imp to ride a dragon, blah, blah, blah and maybe he is a Bastard but I feel like the hints in the writing so far in this story, ASOIAF, the core books tip GRRMs intentions with this paternity matter, if and only if he does go futher. Aunt Genna Lannister Frey, who strikes me as pretty clever and observant, sees Tyrion as Tywin in a smaller form.

I am sure there are some fans who want Tyrion to ride a dragon.  Do you know where this comes from?

It comes from Tyrion (the character) own desperate want to ride a dragon himself. We see inside the POV of many characters and no one thinks of, talks of or dreams of Dragons more than Tyrion *except* Dany.

Tyrion has been dreaming of dragons since he was a child and as recently as ADoD, a Targaryen trait btw.

Fans just want him to achieve his own true hearts desire as laid out by the author across all 5 books of ASOIAF.

Then came TWoIaF where we learned that low and behold Aerys and Joanna were in the same place at the same time in the year prior to Tyrion being born. On that same note there is no literature in the main or side books that puts Aerys and Joanna in the same location before the Twins birth. It is a total fanfiction theory.

As pointed out many times on these threads many characters show known 'Targaryen traits', doesn't mean much except that the Targaryens actually weren't that different from the rest of the characters to begin with. Any person from any family can be crazy, there are examples from every single family in these stories. There are also examples of incest and odd sexual behavior from every family as well, just means that Woody Allen was right In 'Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Sex'.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

snip

Given the context of ASOIAF, sibling banging is rather exclusive, unless you are a certain Frey who is surrounded by nothing but kin. 

I am aware of Non Targs riding a Dragon, however it is impossible to ignore the people who identify as Tyrion in their own way as victims and would love it if he was a royal and a dragon rider etc... Not that you are but they exist. 

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9 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I am sure there are some fans who want Tyrion to ride a dragon.  Do you know where this comes from?

It comes from Tyrion (the character) own desperate want to ride a dragon himself. We see inside the POV of many characters and no one thinks of, talks of or dreams of Dragons more than Tyrion *except* Dany.

Tyrion has been dreaming of dragons since he was a child and as recently as ADoD, a Targaryen trait btw.

Fans just want him to achieve his own true hearts desire as laid out by the author across all 5 books of ASOIAF.

Then came TWoIaF where we learned that low and behold Aerys and Joanna were in the same place at the same time in the year prior to Tyrion being born. On that same note there is no literature in the main or side books that puts Aerys and Joanna in the same location before the Twins birth. It is a total fanfiction theory.

As pointed out many times on these threads many characters show known 'Targaryen traits', doesn't mean much except that the Targaryens actually weren't that different from the rest of the characters to begin with. Any person from any family can be crazy, there are examples from every single family in these stories. There are also examples of incest and odd sexual behavior from every family as well, just means that Woody Allen was right In 'Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Sex'.

Look, I am not a Tyrion Fan but I know he has his own fanbase. To each their own. 

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I'm not a Tyrion fan but he's going to ride a dragon, GRRM fucking named one for him, people are going to have to get over it.

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11 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Given the context of ASOIAF, sibling banging is rather exclusive, unless you are a certain Frey who is surrounded by nothing but kin. 

I am aware of Non Targs riding a Dragon, however it is impossible to ignore the people who identify as Tyrion in their own way as victims and would love it if he was a royal and a dragon rider etc... Not that you are but they exist. 

Which Non-Targ are you aware of that rode a dragon?

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