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A+J=T v.9

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

it's nothing special, but every season of HBO, obviously we need a place to be able to discuss the relevance to the books.  I get what everyone is saying about how different it is from the books, but let's face it, the Dany, Jon and Tyrion storylines have stayed extremely close and accurate to the books, obviously not 100%, but for instance I am fairly certain that however Jon is revived on the show will be taken directly from GRRM's Winds of Winter.  Anyway it's nice to have a free discussion.

 

lol!! Nah I'm good, well away from that crazy lady.  how you doin? 

Can't complain. 

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I posted about AJT in another thread but am following the suggestion to bring it here since my post was about the books. 

Here's an abbreviated version of what I said:

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I just reread the chapter between Jaime and Catelyn in Clash and since I'm reading it all with AJT in mind it made me take a second look at the part where Jaime is talking about killing Aerys. (And let me just preface all of this by saying that I agree that everything about Jaime killing Aerys is already interesting without needing the AJT element to be true. I just feel like there are multiple examples where AJT being true actually adds layers and complexity and that there has to be a reason why there are so many little things that (to me anyway) work and seem quite deliberate. 

When Jaime is talking about Aerys and he's describing how he used a golden sword, he emphasizes how with the addition of Aerys's blood it had the colors of House Lannister. Catelyn notes the pride in his voice in his voice and it made me wonder how he would feel if he learned about AJT and that Aerys raped his mother. Wouldn't that magnify the deed for Jaime even more on a personal level? Knowing how he feels about rape, I can't help but think that he'd be extremely satisfied to know that House Lannister paid that particular debt. 

I feel like if AJT is true and it was rape that it makes having Jaime as the character who finally puts this sick guy down feel even more suitable and appropriate.

 

The second part of the post:

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Thinking about Joanna brings me to lingering questions that I've always had and now that I'm rereading the books a few thoughts have come to mind:

Given the type of man Aerys was and how interested he was in Joanna, I wonder if there was more of an insult to the conversation with Aerys regarding a betrothal between Rhaegar and Cersei. I have no problem imagining Aerys being bold enough to make a remark about how Tywin's daughter isn't fit to marry his son but she'd be suitable enough to be a certain king's mistress. Furthermore, what if he makes a reference during this conversation to whatever happened between him and Joanna? I'm imagining him saying something like mother like daughter or giving some kind of detail that hints at what he might have done? Tywin wasted no time in leaving court and taking Cersei with him so I wonder if we'll find out that there was an extra element to his haste since Aerys was starting to become more unstable at this point.

Assuming that Aerys raped Joanna, this also makes me reconsider Oberyn's story to Tyrion about Joanna being interested in one or more of the Martell siblings for the twins. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Aerys's behavior is what lead Joanna to want to secure betrothals for the twins. Doesn't six or seven seem young for a betrothal given that there was no particular reason that we know of to rush? To me it sounds as though Joanna wanted to make one or two alliances and I wonder if she was motivated to do this because of what might have happened between her and Aerys.

 

To continue a bit more of this line of thought, Tywin doesn't seem to have tried to attempt to go through Rhaegar to seal the deal with Cersei. If the relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys was strained you'd think Tywin 

I think it's interesting too that Joanna's first choice/thought of a bride for Jaime was Elia and that Aerys was too nervous to attend the wedding out of fear of assassination. Did some part of Aerys think that Dorne was feeling hostile about his reign and did Joanna initially have similar thoughts? 

Also from the thread:

Jo Maltese:

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As for why Aerys spurned Cersei, I wrote a few things about it (check my sig), in particular:

- If AJT is true and if Aerys suspects it, then from a genetics point of view the dwarfish nature of Tyrion would dissuade him to bet on a Targaryen - Lannister union to perpetuate the line of the dragons...

- Also, as you mention it, like mother like daughter : what if Joanna was actually a stupid slut (excuse my French :P) just like Cersei and Aerys knew it? (And like father like son : who is Jaime in love with?)

 

Regarding the bit in bold, I think you hit the nail on the head. He was sort of like that one Targaryen king who was producing nothing but monstrosities no matter the woman only his affliction wasn't as as bad as that king's was.  

The reason I don't think Joanna was a slut is because of how strongly Tywin seems to feel about her. We only hear good things about Joanna. My guess right now is that Myrcella takes after her grandmother and that Joanna was a good and kind woman. I suspect that Rhaella was trying to help Joanna out by dismissing her as opposed to being jealous and threatened by a rival.  

As far as quotes that have jumped out at me during the reread I've been doing, apart from Jaime's thoughts on killing Aerys, another one I liked that I don't think has been mentioned in the OP are thoughts that Tyrion has at the beginning of the Battle of the Blackwater. As Tyrion is watching the wildfire burning and everything, he starts thinking about Aegon and the Field of Fire and he imagines how Aegon would have felt looking down at the flames and all of the destruction. Isn't it interesting that Tyrion would imagine how it felt to be Aegon rather than imagining how King Loren Lannister must have felt? 

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On 4/5/2016 at 4:38 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Hey! It's been a while! :) 

HiHi

 

I guess I got pretty upset at GRRM's New Years Day Blog post, I was seriously ready to read the book before the next season.  So I had to take a few months off to deal.

:D

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23 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

 

As far as quotes that have jumped out at me during the reread I've been doing, apart from Jaime's thoughts on killing Aerys, another one I liked that I don't think has been mentioned in the OP are thoughts that Tyrion has at the beginning of the Battle of the Blackwater. As Tyrion is watching the wildfire burning and everything, he starts thinking about Aegon and the Field of Fire and he imagines how Aegon would have felt looking down at the flames and all of the destruction. Isn't it interesting that Tyrion would imagine how it felt to be Aegon rather than imagining how King Loren Lannister must have felt? 

Yes good point.  In DwD there are like 10 more of these, he always compares the situation to some historical Targaryen act, hardly ever anything about the Lannisters.  Ill find some examples :)

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Something I just saw in another thread that I've never seen mentioned before. Its not strong, but its yet another potential clue/parallel/whatever.

There is a possibility that Tywin got Joanna as 'sloppy seconds' (a disgusting term, but it serves the purpose) after Aerys.

And Shae as 'sloppy seconds' after Tyrion.

So for the father, thus for the son....

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@Rhaechyll Targaryen

Very interesting points!

In regards to Jaime, I always considered him to be the one member in the family, who replaced the mother Joanna, as the core, the one who holds them all together. If you think about it, one of the few things that unite Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion is their love for Jaime. It should also be noted that among the three children, only Jaime dreams of his mother despite the fact that he barely thinks of her. Cersei does think of her mother and just like Tywin, she blames Tyrion for her death. Tyrion also thinks of his mother, in fact he bitterly describes himself as his mother's murderer. He even thinks of her, after Blackwater, when he feared that he was abandoned. Jaime only mentions Joanna briefly, as the person who discovered the incestuous relationship and tried to end it. Her death of course, meant that the incest continued. He seems to be almost indiferrent to his mother's early demise and perhaps grateful, since there was no one left, to threaten his relationship with his sister.

Yet he is the only one to actually see his mother in a dream and afterwards he takes a crucial decision, to abandon his sister.

 

Quote

 Catelyn notes the pride in his voice in his voice and it made me wonder how he would feel if he learned about AJT and that Aerys raped his mother. Wouldn't that magnify the deed for Jaime even more on a personal level? Knowing how he feels about rape, I can't help but think that he'd be extremely satisfied to know that House Lannister paid that particular debt. 

Jaime had Ned's men killed once he found out that Cat had arrested Tyrion. I don't want to imagine how he would react if he ever found out that Aerys mistreated his mother. 

Quote

I feel like if AJT is true and it was rape that it makes having Jaime as the character who finally puts this sick guy down feel even more suitable and appropriate. 

 

I believe that originally Joanna had a consensual relationship with Aerys, which ended once she married Tywin.

What happenned between them during her brief visit in KL, years later, was most likely a rape. It is very ironic if Aerys was killed by the son of the couple that he had humiliated. Also, I was felt that Aerys' declaration  He's mine now, not Tywin's, when he joined the KG reveal a perverted possessiveness. If indeed Aerys fathered Tyrion and was aware of it, then he insulted Tywin twice by depriving him from his rightful heir and forcing him to raise his bastard as his own. 

 

Quote

The reason I don't think Joanna was a slut is because of how strongly Tywin seems to feel about her. We only hear good things about Joanna. My guess right now is that Myrcella takes after her grandmother and that Joanna was a good and kind woman. I suspect that Rhaella was trying to help Joanna out by dismissing her as opposed to being jealous and threatened by a rival.  

 

There is nothing in the text that suggests that Joanna was promiscuous and if anything, both Tywin and Aerys seemed to be infatuated with Aerys and the latter did seem to be saddened by her death. 

I have heard before the theory that Rhaella was trying to help Joanna by dismissing her, but according to rumours she  enjoyed a brief reign as Aerys' paramour. Perhaps Rhaella was afraid that Joanna was becoming powerful and gradually gained influence over her husband. Perhaps she feared that Joanna would even replace her and given the fact that Rhaella had given birth to only one child, which survived infancy, her fears seem rational. I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin convinced Rhaella to dismiss Joanna.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Danelle said:

(...)I

Quote

The reason I don't think Joanna was a slut is because of how strongly Tywin seems to feel about her. We only hear good things about Joanna. My guess right now is that Myrcella takes after her grandmother and that Joanna was a good and kind woman. I suspect that Rhaella was trying to help Joanna out by dismissing her as opposed to being jealous and threatened by a rival.  

There is nothing in the text that suggests that Joanna was promiscuous and if anything, both Tywin and Aerys seemed to be infatuated with Aerys and the latter did seem to be saddened by her death. 

(...)

Well there is Cersei...Who is a slut and is more likely to take after Joanna than Myrcella IMHO. And there is Shae as Corbon mentioned above, whom Tywin seemed to have liked quite a lot ... and maybe loved?

What is striking is that Tywin did not kill Shae despite his threatening to do so : this is completely out of his public character  - think of the Rains of Castamere or of how both Jaime and Tyrion reflect on the importance of actually carrying out your threats if you want to be feared / respected. So private Tywin is not the total cool-blooded unbending public lord but someone more complex with his flaws and weaknesses (as everyone is) IMO. So yes, maybe he loved Shae after all. In this view, Tywin knowing of AJT and forgiving Joanna... And agreeing to let Tyrion live (not unlike Ned with Lyanna) becomes a coherent possibility...

Edited by Jo Maltese
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6 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Well there is Cersei...Who is a slut and is more likely to take after Joanna than Myrcella IMHO. And there is Shae as Corbon mentioned above, whom Tywin seemed to have liked quite a lot ... and maybe loved?

What is striking is that Tywin did not kill Shae despite his threatening to do so : this is completely out of his public character  - think of the Rains of Castamere or of how both Jaime and Tyrion reflect on the importance of actually carrying out your threats if you want to be feared / respected. So private Tywin is not the total cool-blooded unbending public lord but someone more complex with his flaws and weaknesses (as everyone is) IMO. So yes, maybe he loved Shae after all. In this view, Tywin knowing of AJT and forgiving Joanna... And agreeing to let Tyrion live (not unlike Ned with Lyanna) becomes a coherent possibility...

Tywin loved Shae? That escalated quickly.

Remember, upon arriving at KL, Tywin believed he had severly punished Tyrion's whore.

“I want you to go to my sister. Her precious son made it through the battle unscathed, so Cersei has no more need of a hostage. She swore to free Alayaya once -”
“She did. Eight, nine days ago, after the whipping.”
Tyrion shoved himself up higher, ignoring the sudden stab of pain through his shoulder. “Whipping?”
“They tied her to a post in the yard and scourged her, then shoved her out the gate naked and bloody.”
She was learning to read, Tyrion thought, absurdly. Across his face the scar stretched tight, and for a moment it felt as though his head would burst with rage. Alayaya was a whore, true enough, but a sweeter, braver, more innocent girl he had seldom met. Tyrion had never touched her; she had been no more than a veil, to hide Shae. In his carelessness, he had never thought what the role might cost her.

It was Tywin who had Alayaya whipped, and while he knew that she wasn't the whore he had threatened, he did believe that she was Tyrion's whore at the time. And she was punished for that, harshly.

Shae states that she was made Tyrion's whore on the Green Fork, but the story she tells is one so different from the one that truly happened, and we know that Cersei instructed Shae in what to say, that even Tywin should have cause to wonder whether Shae is the same girl he had threatened (seeing as how he hadn't seen her while Tyrion was at the Green Fork).

And while we can question how sincere Shae was being, she states how Tywin frightens her, and wonders out loud if Tyrion came to take her away. Fearing Tywin, does not really make it sound like he loved her, now does it?

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I'm torn about the paramour line. It's not impossible for me to believe that Aerys and Joanna might have had a consensual affair I just find it to be very, very, very unlikely given what we know of Tywin's personality.

We know that one of Tywin's biggest issues is not wanting to be laughed at. I find it difficult to believe that a man as proud as Tywin would be so deeply in love with a woman who was so publicly a mistress to another man. I can see him still marrying her for power and/or political reasons and don't see the virginity as a deal breaker necessarily. It's the fact that he loved her so much that makes me think she probably loved him too and that Aerys was likely jealous of this. 

When I think of the line about the liberties that Aerys took during the bedding--to me he was acting like a man who hadn't been there before. I get the impression that it drove Aerys nuts that he couldn't have this woman and finally decided to force the issue years later.

When I consider Aerys's nature, rather than taking liberties at the bedding, doesn't it seem like he'd be the type to make a joke about how he'd already had sex with Joanna? Instead, I very much get the vibe of a man who's getting drunk and upset because he's being denied the one person he's always wanted.  

I think that jealousy in general was one of the big issues between Tywin and Aerys. I think Aerys resented that Tywin was a good Hand, I think he hated that Tywin ended up with the woman he wanted, and I think it was too much for him to see Tywin and Joanna with two beautiful looking children, while he and Rhaella continued to struggle after Rhaegar. 

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54 minutes ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I'm torn about the paramour line. It's not impossible for me to believe that Aerys and Joanna might have had a consensual affair I just find it to be very, very, very unlikely given what we know of Tywin's personality.

We know that one of Tywin's biggest issues is not wanting to be laughed at. I find it difficult to believe that a man as proud as Tywin would be so deeply in love with a woman who was so publicly a mistress to another man. I can see him still marrying her for power and/or political reasons and don't see the virginity as a deal breaker necessarily. It's the fact that he loved her so much that makes me think she probably loved him too and that Aerys was likely jealous of this. 

When I think of the line about the liberties that Aerys took during the bedding--to me he was acting like a man who hadn't been there before. I get the impression that it drove Aerys nuts that he couldn't have this woman and finally decided to force the issue years later.

When I consider Aerys's nature, rather than taking liberties at the bedding, doesn't it seem like he'd be the type to make a joke about how he'd already had sex with Joanna? Instead, I very much get the vibe of a man who's getting drunk and upset because he's being denied the one person he's always wanted.  

I think that jealousy in general was one of the big issues between Tywin and Aerys. I think Aerys resented that Tywin was a good Hand, I think he hated that Tywin ended up with the woman he wanted, and I think it was too much for him to see Tywin and Joanna with two beautiful looking children, while he and Rhaella continued to struggle after Rhaegar. 

I agree with you completely.  Especially the actions during the bedding, but also the wording of Barristans description of Aerys feelings make me quite sure that Aerys never had sex with Johanna before he finally raped her when Johanna and Tywin visited KL.  

Aerys was an insecure man.  He was a jealous, paranoid and possessive person.  This got worse and worse through his life, quite gradually.  And eventually he stopped caring who knew it.  

The paramour rumors can easily be explained by a combination of sexism and Aerys insecure/bragging nature.  They aren't specific enough to make it clear this supposed relationship was a public one.  Actually I'd go so far as to say that because they were said to be RUMORS it can't have been a public relationship.  Since in that case they would be called facts, not rumors.  Rumors can mean literally anything, and there are enough people who want to bring The Lannisters down a notch to spread this sort of gossip because they heard the king say something inappropriate about his intentions towards Johanna in his cups.  Which given Aerys personality as we are actually shown it, would be entirely within character. 

Anyway there seem to be few people with the view that Aerys raped Johanna to produce Tyrion in these threads which I find puzzling.  I guess it's the usual: people making something simple too complicated.  A+J=T should not require a radical reimagining of Tywin and Aerys characters.  For one thing, how would we ever find out organically about it?  It would have to be an info dump to be convincing.

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3 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I'm torn about the paramour line. It's not impossible for me to believe that Aerys and Joanna might have had a consensual affair I just find it to be very, very, very unlikely given what we know of Tywin's personality.

We know that one of Tywin's biggest issues is not wanting to be laughed at. I find it difficult to believe that a man as proud as Tywin would be so deeply in love with a woman who was so publicly a mistress to another man. I can see him still marrying her for power and/or political reasons and don't see the virginity as a deal breaker necessarily. It's the fact that he loved her so much that makes me think she probably loved him too and that Aerys was likely jealous of this. 

When I think of the line about the liberties that Aerys took during the bedding--to me he was acting like a man who hadn't been there before. I get the impression that it drove Aerys nuts that he couldn't have this woman and finally decided to force the issue years later.

When I consider Aerys's nature, rather than taking liberties at the bedding, doesn't it seem like he'd be the type to make a joke about how he'd already had sex with Joanna? Instead, I very much get the vibe of a man who's getting drunk and upset because he's being denied the one person he's always wanted.  

I think that jealousy in general was one of the big issues between Tywin and Aerys. I think Aerys resented that Tywin was a good Hand, I think he hated that Tywin ended up with the woman he wanted, and I think it was too much for him to see Tywin and Joanna with two beautiful looking children, while he and Rhaella continued to struggle after Rhaegar. 

Tywin is much more complex than this. He didn't want to be laughed at, yes, but the young Tywin sucked up to the Targaryens in a way the older Tywin never would have. The man changed. The loss of Joanna changed him.

And we know he supposedly loved Joanna very much and was Aerys' best friend in their youth. This is enough to explain how he ended up marrying Joanna despite the fact that she didn't love him (the same way) and/or after she had had an affair with the king.

Tywin himself ended up fucking Shae in the night before he intended to execute Tyrion. That is sick and laughable, too. If we know anything about the man by now then that we cannot reduce him to his public facade/image. Everyone with eyes to see realized that in the very moment we found Shae in Tywin's bed. That completely turned the man on his head, and right now we actually have no clue what 'the real Tywin' was like and what was just his public facade.

As to speculating about Aerys II's personality and inner thoughts:

That's difficult, too, but one wonders whether he would have presided over Tywin's wedding or had allowed him to marry in the Great Sept/capital if he had had issues with Joanna marrying Tywin. Not to mention that Aerys most likely could actually have forbidden the Tywin-Joanna marriage if he had wanted to, or could have forced Tywin to choose between Joanna and the Handship.

But nothing suggests he did anything of that sort, making it actually rather likely that Aerys had little interest in Joanna at this point. After all, we know the man had a changeable nature, and considering the number of affairs he had it is very unlikely that his feelings for/interest in Joanna remained constant.

Joanna giving birth to two beautiful twins certainly soured Aerys and Tywin's relationship. But this wouldn't have been just 'normal jealousy' but part of the pressure Aerys and Rhaella found themselves in to produce the companions of the promised prince as well as heirs to the Iron Throne.

2 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

The paramour rumors can easily be explained by a combination of sexism and Aerys insecure/bragging nature.  They aren't specific enough to make it clear this supposed relationship was a public one.  Actually I'd go so far as to say that because they were said to be RUMORS it can't have been a public relationship.  Since in that case they would be called facts, not rumors.  Rumors can mean literally anything, and there are enough people who want to bring The Lannisters down a notch to spread this sort of gossip because they heard the king say something inappropriate about his intentions towards Johanna in his cups.  Which given Aerys personality as we are actually shown it, would be entirely within character. 

Well, you can also tackle the rumor stuff by assuming Yandel reduced credible reports about Joanna being deflowered by Aerys in the night of Jaehaerys II's coronation (a pretty detailed rumor, actually) as well as the reports about her time as Aerys II's paramour to the status of rumors to be able to better dismiss them by citing Pycelle.

And the rationale which Yandel uses to dismiss those 'rumors' - that the great Tywin Lannister would never feast on another man's leavings - is clearly and confirmed to be false, so we have actually little reason to believe that those 'rumors' were wrong. If George wanted us to not believe them he should have given us a better reason not to believe them - say, cited Pycelle or somebody else overhearing Joanna Lannister saying that she abhorred the mere sight of King Aerys, or something like that.

People should keep in mind that only very few people would have dared to mock or laugh about Tywin Lannister if he, Joanna, and Aerys II had been okay with Joanna's previous affair with the king - especially in light of the fact that the wedding took place at court and Tywin Lannister continued to serve Aerys II as Hand. These two were the most powerful men at court, after all, and while Tywin and Aerys were not as estranged as they later were, it would have been utterly stupid to actually make fun of the whole Joanna affair. You don't laugh about anything the king did if you want to advance yourself at court.

Whether the Joanna affair never came up in later jokes about Tywin at court isn't at all clear - they very well could have come up because we don't know much about the nature of those jokes. However, them not coming up could simply have to do with Joanna's sudden death as well as the removal of certain people from court who made jokes about Joanna. Both Tywin and Aerys would have had the power to do that - and if Aerys actually was Tyrion's father and thought Tywin wasn't aware of that fact he would have had a pretty good reason to not remind the world that he actually once had a rather public affair with Joanna Lannister.

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12 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Tywin loved Shae? That escalated quickly.

Remember, upon arriving at KL, Tywin believed he had severly punished Tyrion's whore.

“I want you to go to my sister. Her precious son made it through the battle unscathed, so Cersei has no more need of a hostage. She swore to free Alayaya once -”
“She did. Eight, nine days ago, after the whipping.”
Tyrion shoved himself up higher, ignoring the sudden stab of pain through his shoulder. “Whipping?”
“They tied her to a post in the yard and scourged her, then shoved her out the gate naked and bloody.”
She was learning to read, Tyrion thought, absurdly. Across his face the scar stretched tight, and for a moment it felt as though his head would burst with rage. Alayaya was a whore, true enough, but a sweeter, braver, more innocent girl he had seldom met. Tyrion had never touched her; she had been no more than a veil, to hide Shae. In his carelessness, he had never thought what the role might cost her.

It was Tywin who had Alayaya whipped, and while he knew that she wasn't the whore he had threatened, he did believe that she was Tyrion's whore at the time. And she was punished for that, harshly.

Shae states that she was made Tyrion's whore on the Green Fork, but the story she tells is one so different from the one that truly happened, and we know that Cersei instructed Shae in what to say, that even Tywin should have cause to wonder whether Shae is the same girl he had threatened (seeing as how he hadn't seen her while Tyrion was at the Green Fork).

And while we can question how sincere Shae was being, she states how Tywin frightens her, and wonders out loud if Tyrion came to take her away. Fearing Tywin, does not really make it sound like he loved her, now does it?

First, on the main topic, some selected Tywin's words from the same chapter you quote, talking to Tyrion:

"Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that mater..."

"Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove  that you are not mine."

"Speak no more of your rights to Casterly Rock."

I'd say that Tywin thinks A+J=T

As for Shae, even though I find her story confusing, I think it otherwise.

When Tyrion arrived to his tent at the Green Fork, he found there Bronn, Pod and Shae. I tend to think that Shae was in Tywin retinue, as was Pod, and both were sent by him. Perhaps he tried to keep Tyrion busy so that he didn't flee from the trap he was sending him to. I don't recall any clue that she was informing Tywin, and maybe she didn't, after all KL was under siege, but still I suspect that she did when Tywin came in.

I don't think Tywin had Alayaya whipped, either. He couldn't have confused her with Shae. Excuse my racism, but one of them was black while the other was white. In his conversation with Tyrion, it seems that he let Cersei do, in part to appease her, in part to sent a warning to Tyrion. Anyway, even if he did, he knew whom he was whipping. Never forget that the passage to Chataya's whorehouse that Tyrion used had been built for another Hand, too proud to admit he visited a whorehouse. I think Shae was at Tywin's service since the Green Fork till her death.

Edited by finger

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Just now, finger said:

First, on the main topic, some selected Tywin's words from the same chapter you quote, talking to Tyrion:

"Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that mater..."

"Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove  that you are not mine."

"Speak no more of your rights to Casterly Rock."

I'd say that Tywin thinks A+J=T

As for Shae, even though I find her story confusing, I think it otherwise.

When Tyrion arrived to his tent at the Green Fork, he found there Bronn, Pod and Shae. I tend to think that Shae was in Tywin retinue, as was Pod, and both were sent by him.(1) Perhaps he tried to keep Tyrion busy so that he didn't flee from the trap he was sending him to. I don't recall any clue that she was informing Tywin, and maybe she didn't , after all KL was under siege, but still I suspect that she did when Tywin came in.(2)

I don't think Tywin had Alayaya whipped, either. He couldn't have confused her with Shae.(3) Excuse my racism, but one one them was black while the other was white. In his conversation with Tyrion, it seems that he let Cersei do, in part to appease her, in part to sent a warning to Tyrion. Anyway, even if he did, he knew whom he was whipping. Never forget that the passage to Chataya's whorehouse that Tyrion used had been built for another Hand, to proud to admit he visited a whorehouse.(4) I think Shae was at Tywin's service since the Green Fork till her death.

(1) Bronn clearly states where he found Shae. She was with another soldier, and Bronn took her from him. That couldn't have happened if Shae had been sent to Tyrion.

(2) Who said anything about Shae informing Tywin about anything? As far as we know, the trial is the first time they came face to face.

(3) Tywin clearly states that he is aware that Alayaya is not Shae, as I stated in my post.

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.
My whorehouse?” The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, “Cersei told you about Alayaya.
“Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?”
“Tysha.” He spat out the answer, defiant.
“And that camp follower on the Green Fork?”
“Why do you care?” he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae’s name in his presence.
“I don’t. No more than I care if they live or die.”
“It was you who had Yaya whipped.” It was not a question.

Yet, he did believe that Alayaya was Tyrion's current whore, and saw her association with his son as a dishonor onto the name of his house, and he punished her accordingly, just as he had done to women in similar positions in the past.

(4) And Tywin would know who Alayaya was upon first seeing her, despite the fact that she was born after he had ceased to be Hand, and had been only a newborn/toddler when he had gone to KL for the Sack? It is possible he knows who Chataya is, but that doesn't mean that he'll instantly recognize Alayaya.

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30 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

(1) Bronn clearly states where he found Shae. She was with another soldier, and Bronn took her from him. That couldn't have happened if Shae had been sent to Tyrion.

(2) Who said anything about Shae informing Tywin about anything? As far as we know, the trial is the first time they came face to face.

(3) Tywin clearly states that he is aware that Alayaya is not Shae, as I stated in my post.

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.
My whorehouse?” The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, “Cersei told you about Alayaya.
“Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?”
“Tysha.” He spat out the answer, defiant.
“And that camp follower on the Green Fork?”
“Why do you care?” he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae’s name in his presence.
“I don’t. No more than I care if they live or die.”
“It was you who had Yaya whipped.” It was not a question.

Yet, he did believe that Alayaya was Tyrion's current whore, and saw her association with his son as a dishonor onto the name of his house, and he punished her accordingly, just as he had done to women in similar positions in the past.

(4) And Tywin would know who Alayaya was upon first seeing her, despite the fact that she was born after he had ceased to be Hand, and had been only a newborn/toddler when he had gone to KL for the Sack? It is possible he knows who Chataya is, but that doesn't mean that he'll instantly recognize Alayaya.

I know what Bronn told, not that I must believe it. Sellsword's words. He might be doing as he had been instructed to, or just boasting.

My point is that Tywin knew that Tyrion was seeing Shae, not Alayaya, and he didn't interfere with Cersei. It's said that another Hand, most possibly Tywin, used a secret passage that led to the very Alayaya's room, and it has to be with some purpose. I guess Shae was working for him and he was glad with other people not suspecting.

In a nutshell, my view is that Shae was already at Tywin's service when met Tyrion. I allow that the clues are not concluding, and I'm looking for more on this, but it's now when the topic has arisen.

Eta. Why should Tywin care about a whore in a battle? He told Tyrion not to take her to KL and, according to that quote, he doesn't seem to know that Tyrion didn't oblige. Only I don't buy into it.

Edited by finger

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26 minutes ago, finger said:

I know what Bronn told, not that I must believe it. Sellsword's words. He might be doing as he had been instructed to, or just boasting.

My point is that Tywin knew that Tyrion was seeing Shae, not Alayaya, and he didn't interfere with Cersei.(1) It's said that another Hand, most possibly Tywin, used a secret passage that led to the very Alayaya's room, and it has to be with some purpose.(2) I guess Shae was working for him and he was glad with other people not suspecting.

In a nutshell, my view is that Shae was already at Tywin's service when met Tyrion. I allow that the clues are not concluding, and I'm looking for more on this, but it's now when the topic has arisen.

Eta. Why should Tywin care about a whore in a battle? He told Tyrion not to take her to KL and, according to that quote, he doesn't seem to know that Tyrion didn't oblige. Only I don't buy into it.

(1) Except that that is not what the quotes states. According to that quote, Tywin knows that the camp follower from the Green Fork is not Alayaya, but has been told by Cersei that Alayaya is Tyrion's current lover. With that knowledge, Alayaya's punishment was determined.

(2) Tywin might have been the Hand for whom the passage had been build. Sure. I'm not arguing for or against that. But even if Tywin was th eperson who had the tunnel build, and thus who had made use of it in the past, whilst Chataya was already runnning her establishment, that still doesn't mean that Tywin knows that Alayaya is Chataya's daughters, considering that Alayaya was born after Tywin had ceased to be Aerys's Hand. That was the point I was trying to make, since it seemed like you were trying to argue that he did. If I misunderstood your, I apologize.

 

The way I see it, upon arriving in KL, Tywin immediately decides to take away the only people his son leans on. Bronn, by personally arranging his knighthood, and Alayaya, by having her whipped, humiliated, and send away naked and bloody.

But I currently don't see any reason to assume that Tywin's involvement in Alayaya's punishment is not true.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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16 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

(1) Except that that is not what the quotes states. According to that quote, Tywin knows that the camp follower from the Green Fork is not Alayaya, but has been told by Cersei that Alayaya is Tyrion's current lover. With that knowledge, Alayaya's punishment was determined.

(2) Tywin might have been the Hand for whom the passage had been build. Sure. I'm not arguing for or against that. But even if Tywin was th eperson who had the tunnel build, and thus who had made use of it in the past, whilst Chataya was already runnning her establishment, that still doesn't mean that Tywin knows that Alayaya is Chataya's daughters, considering that Alayaya was born after Tywin had ceased to be Aerys's Hand. That was the point I was trying to make, since it seemed like you were trying to argue that he did. If I misunderstood your, I apologize.

 

The way I see it, upon arriving in KL, Tywin immediately decides to take away the only people his son leans on. Bronn, by personally arranging his knighthood, and Alayaya, by having her whipped, humiliated, and send away naked and bloody.

But I currently don't see any reason to assume that Tywin's involvement in Alayaya's punishment is not true.

This I agree.

And I don't say Tywin wasn't involved in Alayaya's punishment, but I think it was Cersei's notion and he obliged. It's a proven fact that Tywin wouldn't shy from punishing an innocent as long as it served his purposes. He knew what he was doing, no mistake.

What I'm musing about is that Tywin was full aware of Shae since the very start. In that world fickle allegiances (who's men the Kettleblacks were?), she always was Tywin's woman, not Tyrion's. I think I've found clues that make this story more credible than others. Not sure, it's a bit raw yet, but ...

On the main topic, I said it's pretty clearly stated that Tywin at least suspected that Tyrion was Aerys' son. That would explain a couple of things

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12 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I agree with you completely.  Especially the actions during the bedding, but also the wording of Barristans description of Aerys feelings make me quite sure that Aerys never had sex with Johanna before he finally raped her when Johanna and Tywin visited KL.  

Aerys was an insecure man.  He was a jealous, paranoid and possessive person.  This got worse and worse through his life, quite gradually.  And eventually he stopped caring who knew it.  

The paramour rumors can easily be explained by a combination of sexism and Aerys insecure/bragging nature.  They aren't specific enough to make it clear this supposed relationship was a public one.  Actually I'd go so far as to say that because they were said to be RUMORS it can't have been a public relationship.  Since in that case they would be called facts, not rumors.  Rumors can mean literally anything, and there are enough people who want to bring The Lannisters down a notch to spread this sort of gossip because they heard the king say something inappropriate about his intentions towards Johanna in his cups.  Which given Aerys personality as we are actually shown it, would be entirely within character. 

Anyway there seem to be few people with the view that Aerys raped Johanna to produce Tyrion in these threads which I find puzzling.  I guess it's the usual: people making something simple too complicated.  A+J=T should not require a radical reimagining of Tywin and Aerys characters.  For one thing, how would we ever find out organically about it?  It would have to be an info dump to be convincing.

This is how I feel too. Say Joanna really was  Aerys's paramour. Why don't more people know this or talk about it? Why don't any of our Lannister POVs ever think about this? I agree that Barristan's wording suggests that Aerys wanted Joanna but the desire was left unfulfilled. 

I've noticed that people seem to lean towards it having been a consensual affair and I wonder why. Part of me wonders if it goes back to not liking the idea that Tywin has a "reason" for his over the top hatred of Tyrion. Where I've always disagreed though is the idea that AJT means that Tywin somehow gets a pass for treating Tyrion like shit all of his life. I don't think AJT lets Tywin off of the hook for being an asshole. It just adds layers to the complicated father/son dynamic which doesn't go away if Tyrion turns out to not be Tywin's biological child. Tywin is still his father for all intents and purposes and AJT doesn't change that IMO.

In the books I feel like there are all sorts of ways that we might find out about AJT. If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider I can see Barristan helping him to put the pieces together. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin is much more complex than this. He didn't want to be laughed at, yes, but the young Tywin sucked up to the Targaryens in a way the older Tywin never would have. The man changed. The loss of Joanna changed him.

And we know he supposedly loved Joanna very much and was Aerys' best friend in their youth. This is enough to explain how he ended up marrying Joanna despite the fact that she didn't love him (the same way) and/or after she had had an affair with the king.

Tywin himself ended up fucking Shae in the night before he intended to execute Tyrion. That is sick and laughable, too. If we know anything about the man by now then that we cannot reduce him to his public facade/image. Everyone with eyes to see realized that in the very moment we found Shae in Tywin's bed. That completely turned the man on his head, and right now we actually have no clue what 'the real Tywin' was like and what was just his public facade.

As to speculating about Aerys II's personality and inner thoughts:

That's difficult, too, but one wonders whether he would have presided over Tywin's wedding or had allowed him to marry in the Great Sept/capital if he had had issues with Joanna marrying Tywin. Not to mention that Aerys most likely could actually have forbidden the Tywin-Joanna marriage if he had wanted to, or could have forced Tywin to choose between Joanna and the Handship.

But nothing suggests he did anything of that sort, making it actually rather likely that Aerys had little interest in Joanna at this point. After all, we know the man had a changeable nature, and considering the number of affairs he had it is very unlikely that his feelings for/interest in Joanna remained constant.

Joanna giving birth to two beautiful twins certainly soured Aerys and Tywin's relationship. But this wouldn't have been just 'normal jealousy' but part of the pressure Aerys and Rhaella found themselves in to produce the companions of the promised prince as well as heirs to the Iron Throne.

Well, you can also tackle the rumor stuff by assuming Yandel reduced credible reports about Joanna being deflowered by Aerys in the night of Jaehaerys II's coronation (a pretty detailed rumor, actually) as well as the reports about her time as Aerys II's paramour to the status of rumors to be able to better dismiss them by citing Pycelle.

And the rationale which Yandel uses to dismiss those 'rumors' - that the great Tywin Lannister would never feast on another man's leavings - is clearly and confirmed to be false, so we have actually little reason to believe that those 'rumors' were wrong. If George wanted us to not believe them he should have given us a better reason not to believe them - say, cited Pycelle or somebody else overhearing Joanna Lannister saying that she abhorred the mere sight of King Aerys, or something like that.

People should keep in mind that only very few people would have dared to mock or laugh about Tywin Lannister if he, Joanna, and Aerys II had been okay with Joanna's previous affair with the king - especially in light of the fact that the wedding took place at court and Tywin Lannister continued to serve Aerys II as Hand. These two were the most powerful men at court, after all, and while Tywin and Aerys were not as estranged as they later were, it would have been utterly stupid to actually make fun of the whole Joanna affair. You don't laugh about anything the king did if you want to advance yourself at court.

Whether the Joanna affair never came up in later jokes about Tywin at court isn't at all clear - they very well could have come up because we don't know much about the nature of those jokes. However, them not coming up could simply have to do with Joanna's sudden death as well as the removal of certain people from court who made jokes about Joanna. Both Tywin and Aerys would have had the power to do that - and if Aerys actually was Tyrion's father and thought Tywin wasn't aware of that fact he would have had a pretty good reason to not remind the world that he actually once had a rather public affair with Joanna Lannister.

I don't think there's a lack of complexity in Tywin's character that I was describing.  

Regarding the first point in bold, if Tywin was so deeply in love with Joanna, and by all accounts he was, does it seem likely that the happiest day of his life was the day he married a woman who didn't love him but was actually in love with his best friend? To me it makes more sense that Tywin and Joanna genuinely loved each other and this irritated Aerys no end. It isn't that I can't see Tywin marrying Joanna if she didn't love him. It's how happy he is that suggests to me this was a love match rather than a political union with love on one side.

Regarding the second point in bold, I don't think that Aerys objected to the union because I think he initially thought that it would keep Joanna in King's Landing.  

To the third point in bold, I hugely disagree. I think there's every indication that Aerys was very interested in Joanna at this point. Not only that but I think his feelings/obsession for Joanna remained constant because he's still thinking about her and wanting her years later. She's the only woman Barristan mentions to Dany in terms of a woman that Aerys wanted. I don't think there's any suggestion that Aerys's interest in Joanna was minimal. 

Regarding the fourth point in bold, I think the distinction is that Tywin would never publicly feast on another man's leavings. I think this is consistent with what we know of his personality. He cares about appearances. 

If Tywin, Aerys, and Joanna really were this happy threesome in the beginning then why does Joanna live at Casterly Rock for the most part? My guess is that Tywin and Joanna thought it would be better for her to be away from Aerys. If AJT is true and it was rape, that shows they had every reason to not trust the idea of Aerys being around Joanna too much. 

One thing I am undecided on is whether or not Aerys only implied things to Tywin or if he was more direct about what happened. If he only ever implied it, I can see Tywin going back and forth on whether or not it happened and trying to tell himself that it didn't only to be confronted daily with the fact that it's probably true. 

If Tywin knows/suspects that Tyrion is a product of rape then it puts an even more disgusting revenge twist on what ended up happening with Tysha. 

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52 minutes ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

This is how I feel too. Say Joanna really was  Aerys's paramour. Why don't more people know this or talk about it? Why don't any of our Lannister POVs ever think about this? I agree that Barristan's wording suggests that Aerys wanted Joanna but the desire was left unfulfilled. 

I've noticed that people seem to lean towards it having been a consensual affair and I wonder why. Part of me wonders if it goes back to not liking the idea that Tywin has a "reason" for his over the top hatred of Tyrion. Where I've always disagreed though is the idea that AJT means that Tywin somehow gets a pass for treating Tyrion like shit all of his life. I don't think AJT lets Tywin off of the hook for being an asshole. It just adds layers to the complicated father/son dynamic which doesn't go away if Tyrion turns out to not be Tywin's biological child. Tywin is still his father for all intents and purposes and AJT doesn't change that IMO.

Yeah it could be that reason.  even though most of us who think a + j = t would agree it does not cheapen the relationship with Tywin.  

Some seem to really want Aerys to have been a good person, deep down.  But until I see actual evidence of that in the books I'm not buying it.  And no, him being charming in his youth and liking to dance and having friends doesn't make Him a good person.  

I also think to the reverse that people really don't want Tywin to have a happy, content, even gentle side.  That he actually did well by Johanna and she by him does seem to be a unique relationship in his life.  However I don't see any contradiction between Tywin being a good husband and a complete sob in every other art of his life.  Honestly I think that's pretty damn common among criminals and warlords today. 

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In the books I feel like there are all sorts of ways that we might find out about AJT. If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider I can see Barristan helping him to put the pieces together. 

Oh I agree.  There are plenty of subtle ways to reveal A + J = T.  My quibble is with how to "reveal" organically that oh actually Tywin was cuckolded and under Johannas' iron fist and she was manipulating Tywin and fucking Aerys publicly for years leading ultimately to Tyrions conception (even though there's been no sign of any of that before).  To me it would require WAY too much explanation such that we can't expect ever to get it. 

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I don't think there's a lack of complexity in Tywin's character that I was describing.  

Regarding the first point in bold, if Tywin was so deeply in love with Joanna, and by all accounts he was, does it seem likely that the happiest day of his life was the day he married a woman who didn't love him but was actually in love with his best friend? To me it makes more sense that Tywin and Joanna genuinely loved each other and this irritated Aerys no end. It isn't that I can't see Tywin marrying Joanna if she didn't love him. It's how happy he is that suggests to me this was a love match rather than a political union with love on one side.

Exactly.  All evidence from Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, is that Johanna and Tywin had a remarkably contented relationship.  Rewriting this would be difficult indeed to do convincingly.

 And IMO Tywin fucking Shae is relevant to the relationship wih Tyrion but has little p do wih Johanna - Tywin will do whatever he can to humiliate Tyrion, including "stealing" Shae from him.  It's not "sloppy seconds" it's Tywin saying to Tyrion "see?  She's just a whore - this is what whores are for".  

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Regarding the second point in bold, I don't think that Aerys objected to the union because I think he initially thought that it would keep Joanna in King's Landing. 

Good point - hadn't thought of that particularly but it makes sense.  Given Aerys was almost certainly trying something with her or intending to that resulted in her banishment from court, Aerys might have figured a wedding to his Hand would give him another chance since she would possibly return to KL.  As it was, he had practically NO access to Johanna, unless he made up some reason to visit to her in her home (where she'd probably be better protected by her family than at KL).  

His efforts foiled by Johanna electing to stay at CR to raise the twins, Aerys was probably furious and more jealous than ever.  Hence why he ultimately escalated things when she did come to KL for the anniversary feast.

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To the third point in bold, I hugely disagree. I think there's every indication that Aerys was very interested in Joanna at this point. Not only that but I think his feelings/obsession for Joanna remained constant because he's still thinking about her and wanting her years later. She's the only woman Barristan mentions to Dany in terms of a woman that Aerys wanted. I don't think there's any suggestion that Aerys's interest in Joanna was minimal. 

Exactly.  There is zero evidence that Aerys was ever not obsessed with Johanna.  Every time she comes up for him, throughout his life, it's sexually.  First Barristan says there was a Lannister girl he wanted as a young man.  Then she's accused of adultery with Aerys by Rhaella and sent out of court.  Then he groped her at her wedding.  Then he makes sexual remarks about her at court.  No evidence of waxing / waning obsession - it all points to a singleminded interest in her at least until the point Tyrion is conceived.  At that point he very well MIGHT have lost interest, his lust finally satisfied.  See: Henry 8th parallels. 

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I can see Tywin going back and forth on whether or not it happened and trying to tell himself that it didn't only to be confronted daily with the fact that it's probably true. 

If Tywin knows/suspects that Tyrion is a product of rape then it puts an even more disgusting revenge twist on what ended up happening with Tysha. 

True that is even more horribly twisted.  I do think there's other evidence that Tywin had an obsession with rape - like what he (likely) ordered Gregor to do both with Elia and well, tons of smallfolk he ordered his men to rape in KL and the riverlands.  It's possible the roots are with what Aerys did to Johanna.  

ETA: interestingly, we know that way before Tyrion was conceived, Tywin made sure all the Reynes were killed - even the women and kids.  This demonstrates he was always ruthless and had no qualms killing innocents.  A horrible act indeed, but when compared to Tywins atrocities after Tyrions birth, it does lack the element of rape which they all had in common.  Hmm... 

Edited by A spoon of knife and fork

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5 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Yeah it could be that reason.  even though most of us who think a + j = t would agree it does not cheapen the relationship with Tywin.  

Some seem to really want Aerys to have been a good person, deep down.  But until I see actual evidence of that in the books I'm not buying it.  And no, him being charming in his youth and liking to dance and having friends doesn't make Him a good person.  

I agree. Another reason I'm convinced it was rape is because Aerys was already sliding into the madness at this point. I also think of how we already know that Aerys was a rapist and that he got aroused by fire and violence and by hurting Rhaella. I'm just having trouble imagining this guy all of a sudden having a consensual encounter with Joanna especially shortly after going out of his way to humiliate her at court with that remark. 

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I also think to the reverse that people really don't want Tywin to have a happy, content, even gentle side.  That he actually did well by Johanna and she by him does seem to be a unique relationship in his life.  However I don't see any contradiction between Tywin being a good husband and a complete sob in every other art of his life.  Honestly I think that's pretty damn common among criminals and warlords today. 

I agree. To me it adds complexity to see this other side of the monster that is Tywin. I don't think AJT woobifies him or anything like that. It also isn't hard for me to believe that a good woman like Joanna would have loved Tywin. I think of how much Genna and Kevan love their brother and how they seem like reasonably decent people. It just doesn't feel like a stretch to me that there were two sides to Tywin's personality. He always had the ruthless SOB aspect but I think he also had a loving side that died when Joanna did. Gerion and Genna both more or less confirm this.  

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Oh I agree.  There are plenty of subtle ways to reveal A + J = T.  My quibble is with how to "reveal" organically that oh actually Tywin was cuckolded and under Johannas' iron fist and she was manipulating Tywin and fucking Aerys publicly for years leading ultimately to Tyrions conception (even though there's been no sign of any of that before).  To me it would require WAY too much explanation such that we can't expect ever to get it. 

I'm starting to wonder if book readers will get the information before Tyrion does. 

I've been thinking about the significance of having Barristan as a POV and more and more I'm leaning towards the idea of him knowing about the rape of Joanna. IIRC Barristan always seemed to be away during a lot of the Mad King's acts. My knowledge on the books is shaky here so I'm happy to be corrected but am I right in thinking that Barristan wasn't there for the murders of Brandon and Rickard or for that flashback when Jaime is remembering how he's told by Darry (?) that they can't protect Aerys from raping Rhaella. 

My thought is, Barristan can't have missed everything, right? (Everything when it comes to personally witnessing the worst of Aerys's evil behavior.) What if this was one of the times where he stood by and felt the way that Jaime later feels when he's told he can't protect Rhaella? I feel like this could be a way for us to get the reveal that wouldn't seem too clunky. I can see Barristan reflecting back on a situation where he's wondering if he properly honored his knightly vows.   

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And IMO Tywin fucking Shae is relevant to the relationship wih Tyrion but has little p do wih Johanna - Tywin will do whatever he can to humiliate Tyrion, including "stealing" Shae from him.  It's not "sloppy seconds" it's Tywin saying to Tyrion "see?  She's just a whore - this is what whores are for".

I agree and will add that there's a revenge element to the humiliation too. 

I also think that one of the strongest examples of Tywin's love for Joanna is the fact that he never remarried for political gain when he easily could have. 

My guess is that the tunnel to sneak in women was built after Joanna's death and not before. 

Also, since I'm on the subject of Tywin using whores, I'm convinced that Marei is one of his bastards. The dates add up since she would have been conceived and born back when he was still Hand and this would have all happened after Joanna's death. It's a small detail and I'm not saying that it's a clue or that it proves anything but I'm not getting the impression that Tywin is the one with the fertility issues. Aerys and Rhaella were the ones producing "monstrosities" and Tyrion's appearance sounds like one of the monstrosities from TWOIAF only he managed to live. Jaime, Cersei, and Marei are all healthy and attractive. I don't know how old Donnel Hill is but he's another bastard that I suspect is Tywin's. 

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Good point - hadn't thought of that particularly but it makes sense.  Given Aerys was almost certainly trying something with her or intending to that resulted in her banishment from court, Aerys might have figured a wedding to his Hand would give him another chance since she would possibly return to KL.

It reminds me too of kings in the past who would arrange splendid marriages for their mistresses so that they could keep them at court or would bump up the cuckolded husband's title or position. In this case though I think that Aerys was deluded or willfully blind if he thought Tywin would be open to that sort of relationship.

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True that is even more horribly twisted.  I do think there's other evidence that Tywin had an obsession with rape - like what he (likely) ordered Gregor to do both with Elia and well, tons of smallfolk he ordered his men to rape in KL and the riverlands.  It's possible the roots are with what Aerys did to Johanna.

 I would love it if somebody could dig up the quote where Tyrion is talking to Tywin and Tywin is admitting that Elia didn't have to die. I know that it's commonly thought that Tywin was lying to Tyrion during this conversation but now I want to reread it because I'm struggling to understand why Tywin would bother to lie.

Also, am I wrong in thinking that Tywin seemed almost offended that Tyrion would think that he ordered the rape and murder of Elia or am I completely misremembering this? Why would he care what Tyrion thinks about something like that when he knows that Tyrion knows better than anyone Tywin isn't above ordering rape and murder? 

Edited by Rhaechyll Targaryen
Typos

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13 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

Also, since I'm on the subject of Tywin using whores, I'm convinced that Marei is one of his bastards. The dates add up since she would have been conceived and born back when he was still Hand and this would have all happened after Joanna's death. It's a small detail and I'm not saying that it's a clue or that it proves anything but I'm not getting the impression that Tywin is the one with the fertility issues. Aerys and Rhaella were the ones producing "monstrosities" and Tyrion's appearance sounds like one of the monstrosities from TWOIAF only he managed to live. Jaime, Cersei, and Marei are all healthy and attractive. I don't know how old Donnel Hill is but he's another bastard that I suspect is Tywin's.

It doesn't negate what you're saying overall, but IIRC there's no mention of Aerys and Rhaella's children having been deformed in any way. They were stillborn or died shortly after their birth, but there was nothing visibly wrong with them as far as we know.

For that matter, the only "naturally" malformed Targaryens we've heard of are Aegon II's six-fingered son and possibly Laena Velaryon's stillborn baby. The lizard-like children are a case for itself and I'd attribute it to the Targaryens's bond with dragons and magic rather than recessive genes or fertility problems brought about by simple inbreeding, which seem to be at fault in Aerys' case. I doubt Tyrion really had a tail (though baby Tyrion's description could work as a meta-hint, I suppose).

If Tyrion's dwarfism had anything to do with his parentage, I'm more inclined to believe that Joanna took a moon tea, but instead of aborting the foetus, the tea only damaged it (after all, no birth control works 100%).

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