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What will happend in the minutes after „For the Watch?“


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7 minutes ago, MGraham said:

I agree with you. I just think it would be an odd decision for a show with a budget to have to shoot several scenes when they could have just had him stand up and say "I'm not hurt.... i was wearing chain mail the whole time..."

Shock and awe. Just think of all the publicity the whole "Jon Snow is deader than dead, mr President" generated. 

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5 hours ago, MGraham said:

I agree with you. I just think it would be an odd decision for a show with a budget to have to shoot several scenes when they could have just had him stand up and say "I'm not hurt.... i was wearing chain mail the whole time..."

That would be odd... but is anyone suggesting that ? Since the book ended with a cliffhanger for a major character, why wouldn't they take advantage of it ? It certainly encourages talk about the show through the off-season and anticipation for the next one.

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9 hours ago, MGraham said:

I agree with you. I just think it would be an odd decision for a show with a budget to have to shoot several scenes when they could have just had him stand up and say "I'm not hurt.... i was wearing chain mail the whole time..."

I think the biggest missed opportunity in that final scene is the failure to incorporate the smokey wound. 

 

Also, if the scene plays out differently in the books as many of us believe it will, I would be curious to hear from D&D on it. Part of me thinks that they changed the scene on purpose. One poster already complained about the idea, but it may just be a situation where Martin was not going to finish, and the showrunners agreed to alter the scene so that Martin's version would go unspoiled. 

 

I have several ideas of what could happen in Winds, but I think all of them end with Jon "getting up". I don't believe a resurrection will be needed in the books. 

 

Maybe somebody could refresh my memory here, but: 

1. How long (or did Thoros say) can a body be left untouched before it can be resurrected? 

2. We know that Jon could be stored in the ice cells, but a certain level of decay would follow. How long before a resurrection occurs before they also require a fountain of youth to restore Jon's human appearance.. I don't think Martin, or the Fans, want Jon leading in the image of something out of Dawn of the Dead.

3. Mel is not at CB. Is anyone other than Mel nearby who could potentially resurrect Jon? If so, how far out? And why would they come to CB? 

4. I suppose Jon could be stored for months until Mel decides to check up on jonny boy...but...something just seems odd about that. Why would anyone store Jon's body to begin with? Wouldn't they just burn the body immediately? I would imagine that his supporters would want to honor him with a proper funeral pyre, not store his body. Especially with the whole wight thing. I mean Jon is an adequate swordsman as a human, do you really want to fight a Jon-wight that potentially feels no pain? 

5. Mel mentions the wall's power. If they burn a dead jon, why would the wall suddenly decide to become magical as Jon lay on the pyre? 

 

I guess what I am saying is a dead Jon doesn't fit the current narrative. Unless Jon is dead-dead...but we know he is not so,...

 

For me....Jon gets up.

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6 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

I think the biggest missed opportunity in that final scene is the failure to incorporate the smokey wound. 

 

Also, if the scene plays out differently in the books as many of us believe it will, I would be curious to hear from D&D on it. Part of me thinks that they changed the scene on purpose. One poster already complained about the idea, but it may just be a situation where Martin was not going to finish, and the showrunners agreed to alter the scene so that Martin's version would go unspoiled. 

 

I have several ideas of what could happen in Winds, but I think all of them end with Jon "getting up". I don't believe a resurrection will be needed in the books. 

 

Maybe somebody could refresh my memory here, but: 

1. How long (or did Thoros say) can a body be left untouched before it can be resurrected? 

2. We know that Jon could be stored in the ice cells, but a certain level of decay would follow. How long before a resurrection occurs before they also require a fountain of youth to restore Jon's human appearance.. I don't think Martin, or the Fans, want Jon leading in the image of something out of Dawn of the Dead.

3. Mel is not at CB. Is anyone other than Mel nearby who could potentially resurrect Jon? If so, how far out? And why would they come to CB? 

4. I suppose Jon could be stored for months until Mel decides to check up on jonny boy...but...something just seems odd about that. Why would anyone store Jon's body to begin with? Wouldn't they just burn the body immediately? I would imagine that his supporters would want to honor him with a proper funeral pyre, not store his body. Especially with the whole wight thing. I mean Jon is an adequate swordsman as a human, do you really want to fight a Jon-wight that potentially feels no pain? 

5. Mel mentions the wall's power. If they burn a dead jon, why would the wall suddenly decide to become magical as Jon lay on the pyre? 

 

I guess what I am saying is a dead Jon doesn't fit the current narrative. Unless Jon is dead-dead...but we know he is not so,...

 

For me....Jon gets up.

I take it I'm the poster who 'complained'. For the record, I didn't exactly complain. I just said I see zero evidence for this, and would like to understand why you seem so keen on the idea. Also, when you replied to me you said it was an idea that just occurred to you, but I remember you were going on about this idea back when series 5 was airing, so roughly one year ago. 

Cat was brought back after 3 days in the water. The decay will be faster in water, whereas ice will preserve it rather well. 

And Mel is at Castle Black, she leaves the Shieldhall before Jon himself leaves. 

I agree with Jon not being dead, as I've said before. 

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I take it I'm the poster who 'complained'. For the record, I didn't exactly complain. I just said I see zero evidence for this, and would like to understand why you seem so keen on the idea. Also, when you replied to me you said it was an idea that just occurred to you, but I remember you were going on about this idea back when series 5 was airing, so roughly one year ago. 

Cat was brought back after 3 days in the water. The decay will be faster in water, whereas ice will preserve it rather well. 

And Mel is at Castle Black, she leaves the Shieldhall before Jon himself leaves. 

I agree with Jon not being dead, as I've said before. 

Maybe you were that person, wasn't trying to throw stones. Just trying to make sense of things said by the show writers, and how things played out. 

 

OOo shoot .....My mistake...I was thinking of Shireen....doing too much at once here. 

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6 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Maybe you were that person, wasn't trying to throw stones. Just trying to make sense of things said by the show writers, and how things played out. 

 

OOo shoot .....My mistake...I was thinking of Shireen....doing too much at once here. 

Shireen is at Castle Black as well.

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If he isn't dead in body he certainly isn't dead in spirit. I never even contemplated that he did not die..... Any foreshadowing for that?

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where?

It's been a few months since I last read the books....It probably came up in a conversation (erroneously) with someone else.... This is the first time back on the forums in several months and reading the books, so i am clearly a bit hazy haha. 

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6 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

If he isn't dead in body he certainly isn't dead in spirit. I never even contemplated that he did not die..... Any foreshadowing for that?

If you mean in spirit, a lot of people have argued that the prologue suggests that Jon will live in Ghost for some time. I never liked that idea, because it is too Robin Hobb (also Martin's friend) and well if you haven't read the Farseer trilogy I will shut up. 

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12 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

If you mean in spirit, a lot of people have argued that the prologue suggests that Jon will live in Ghost for some time. I never liked that idea, because it is too Robin Hobb (also Martin's friend) and well if you haven't read the Farseer trilogy I will shut up. 

Yeah, I've seen the argument before, that it's too "Farseer-ish", that Robb and Martin are friends, etc. I haven't read Farseer yet, but if this idea is something Martin's had since the start (or for a long time), I don't think he'd change it just because there's something similar in another book. And even though I'm drawing a blank at the mo, I don't think this is such a unique and novel idea, I would guess it's been done before - the general idea, not the same as in identical. 

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15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I've seen the argument before, that it's too "Farseer-ish", that Robb and Martin are friends, etc. I haven't read Farseer yet, but if this idea is something Martin's had since the start (or for a long time), I don't think he'd change it just because there's something similar in another book. And even though I'm drawing a blank at the mo, I don't think this is such a unique and novel idea, I would guess it's been done before - the general idea, not the same as in identical. 

I do not recall if it was in the third or second book, but if the third (I believe this one) it was published in 1998. So a year before CoK was published. If it was the second book (I am certain it was book three), then it was published in 1996. 

 

I have no idea when Hobb/Martin became friends, but if they were friends at the time he likely that he knew of her idea before he published GoT. 

 

I agree that I don't think he would change it, and I am not even going to speculate about the timing of his ideas....I would have a better chance at nailing a pub date for WoW... I mean he could very well do it simply to give his friend a nod however likely that is... 

 

I guess I should say that I can see Jon temporarily living in Ghost, but not as a way to preserve his soul/spirit. It obviously could happen that way, I just don't envision his stuck in ghost until something magical happens. Which is why I see him standing up....just hopefully a bit more "dramatic" compared to Harry Potter ;). 

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15 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

I do not recall if it was in the third or second book, but if the third (I believe this one) it was published in 1998. So a year before CoK was published. If it was the second book (I am certain it was book three), then it was published in 1996. 

 

I have no idea when Hobb/Martin became friends, but if they were friends at the time he likely that he knew of her idea before he published GoT. 

 

I agree that I don't think he would change it, and I am not even going to speculate about the timing of his ideas....I would have a better chance at nailing a pub date for WoW... I mean he could very well do it simply to give his friend a nod however likely that is... 

 

I guess I should say that I can see Jon temporarily living in Ghost, but not as a way to preserve his soul/spirit. It obviously could happen that way, I just don't envision his stuck in ghost until something magical happens. Which is why I see him standing up....just hopefully a bit more "dramatic" compared to Harry Potter ;). 

I agree, I don't think Jon would be inside Ghost for long. The most likely to me is that immediately following the assassination attempt, he slips into Ghost almost as a knee-jerk reaction. Will someone have let Ghost out? Jon did call to him... 

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree, I don't think Jon would be inside Ghost for long. The most likely to me is that immediately following the assassination attempt, he slips into Ghost almost as a knee-jerk reaction. Will someone have let Ghost out? Jon did call to him... 

Mel perhaps? Maybe she sent someone to make sure he was out? No idea, but I am pretty sure that Ghost is actually nearby. I have beaten this to death in many posts, but it always stood out to me that Jon whispers Ghost's name instead of thinking it. That is an indication (to me), that Jon actually sees Ghost. 

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21 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Mel perhaps? Maybe she sent someone to make sure he was out? No idea, but I am pretty sure that Ghost is actually nearby. I have beaten this to death in many posts, but it always stood out to me that Jon whispers Ghost's name instead of thinking it. That is an indication (to me), that Jon actually sees Ghost. 

Or he's already in that semi-warged state he's been before... :)

As in ASoS, Jon XII

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there hecame, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!"

ADwD, Jon VI

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow.

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7 hours ago, bemused said:

That would be odd... but is anyone suggesting that ? Since the book ended with a cliffhanger for a major character, why wouldn't they take advantage of it ? It certainly encourages talk about the show through the off-season and anticipation for the next one.

We aren't just suggesting this, we know it to be the case.

If you watch the trailer for season 6, you will see a number of scenes where Jon is dead. These all cost money.

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40 minutes ago, MGraham said:

We aren't just suggesting this, we know it to be the case.

If you watch the trailer for season 6, you will see a number of scenes where Jon is dead. These all cost money.

I didn't count how many times deader than dead Jon appears, but iirc every time is from one of two scenes: right after the stabbing and in the room with Davos and Ghost. So I don't think  it would be outrageously expensive. Also, the show has a track record of making odd decisions budget-wise. Last year we had a CGI castle Stokeworth, with the introduction of Lollys, for instance; I would assume that was a much more expensive scene to film than Jon's dead body, and with infinitely less pertinence to the story. There are other examples, too, like the 600 unique faces we never saw in the HoF. 

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I'm going through another turn at of the series (audiobooks for the first time) and I noticed today that much is made of Summer's (or Bran's yet unnamed Direwolf) presence and Bran's clinging to life when he's in a coma. When they shut the window to keep out his sound Bran seems to whither, and when they leave it open and the cries are louder Bran seems stronger. And of course he wakes when he's in the room and on the bed.

I'm thinking that if Ghost is present (and Jon saying Ghost at the end could be because he sees him) Jon clings to life and doesn't need a resurrection. Also, this is when the three eyed crow dreams began for Bran, so maybe Jon has something revealed to him while passed out in the form of a dream. Perhaps Bran being Jon's three eyed crow.

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