Sansa is not going North and her arc proper

[chrisdaw]

This thread will be the whole of Sansa's future story, but I made it because the idea Sansa is going North has spread like it's a given when it is nonsense. It would be contrary to everything good and logical about her arc and the story.

Sansa is not set to leave the Vale very soon. The Vale is intricately interwoven, the signatories of the Lords Declarant each with their own motives and agendas, loose cannon paedophile Lyn with his prized Valyrian steel sword sharing a name with Sansa's fallen direwolf, the powerful House Royce and the animosity with their cadet branch attempting to reach high above their station, master player and linchpin LF whose death could turn the cold war hot, Myranda and her loose ways, Harry the heir, Mya Stone the spurned lover who is in action the gatekeeper to the Eyrie, the Redforts, a peculiarly named Sandor Frey, a Mighty Mouse and on and on the list goes. Many factions, many motivations and vying powers.

It's not all for nothing. The Vale is not about to be picked up and shipped out to the North losing it's only POV and splitting all these threads as half the characters get left behind. It is a set game board, a self contained game of thrones, and it took a lot of time and work to set it up. Arya has Bravos, Jon the watch and North, Bran his little cave, Dany basically the whole of Essos and Sansa has the Vale. These are training grounds from which the characters are to emerge as their new selves, where they would have spent the five year gaps had that idea remained. The Vale is primarily the political training ground designed for Sansa's arc, so that she may emerge the player she is destined to become.

Littlefinger will die or be separated from Sansa so that her arc may be set free. LF is not the point here, he is not the POV, he has no character arc, he is the same LF as we met in AGOT, he has not changed and he is not going to change, his views are fixed, his character fixed, there's no growth left and we've just about learned everything there is to know about him, and Sansa has just about learned everything she has to learn from him. Which was his primary purpose to the story, to teach Sansa how to play the Game of Thrones. His work is done, he is now dispensable, near useless. He is more like to die than not but he may hang around for a thematic showdown with Varys, but that would likely get in the way of our main characters with actual arcs.

Sansa is not going North in accordance with LF's plan to dance on his strings. The primary purpose of Harry in the story is for her to learn to use her charm and sexuality to manipulate. The phase of Sansa's story working under LF has about run it's course, there's not enough left in it to sustain it across kingdoms and many more chapters. The well is almost dry.

LF is her gaoler and her protector. The giant that destroyed Winterfell, her family and life as she happily knew it, and Sansa has in her mind all the pieces to put it together. Putting it together will be her awakening, from pawn to player and the student will turn on the master.

Now she's not going to be a great mastermind straight up. The Vale is going to get messy and most likely Sansa will fail. Jon got himself dead spreading his political capital too thin, Dany unintentionally left utter destruction in her wake, Arya will never be able to fully embrace the FM ethos and Bran is a little behind but he'll fuck something up too, magic is a sword without a hilt and all. Sansa will screw up in the Vale, but she will be bailed out and live to play again.

The Vale cold war will turn hot and it all ends with Sansa up the Eyrie prisoner or besieged. Yes up the Eyrie that is supposedly impassable. How many times does the text say that? The text doth protest too much. They're going up the Eyrie, it's not going to be easy, it's going to be desperate. It's why Mya Stone exists as an actual character and isn't just a random stable master spared a simple single line. It's why so much page space has been dedicated to the description up and down the mountain path, on which nothing significant has yet happened. Atop the Eyrie is historically where the action has happened, where the Winged Knight and Visenya flew to take the Vale. And so it will be again, the faction Sansa is within will be trapped up the Eyrie, like prisoners, as this passage flatly foreshadows.

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It will be even worse in winter, she knew. In winter this will be a cold white prison.

There is a parallel between Harry and Robert Baratheon, a red blooded ladies man, father of bastards, heir to a great house kicking around the Vale, matched to a wolf. It extends to Sansa as Lyanna, the wolf maids they are matched to. With the parallel set, what comes next is for the dragon to come take the wolf away. When I pointed out this parallel people took it and applied the dragon to Aegon. That's nonsense, it's not Aegon, it's Tyrion. Tyrion will come to the Vale and bail Sansa out. The foreshadowing is strong.

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Visenya flew to the Vale and gave Ronnel Arryn a dragon ride while his mother Sharra Arryn watched on. This will repeat, Ronnel for Robert, Sharra for Sansa and Visenya for Viserion, the dragon Tyrion will ride. Robert had never learned to ride properly, she knew. Mules, horses, donkeys, it made no matter; to him they were all fearsome beasts, as terrifying as dragons or griffins.

Like the mule, Robert will get on the dragon.

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The bad little man. Mother, can I make him fly? I want to see him fly.

He will see him fly.

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Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given the chance.

Tyrion has it in mind to destroy the Vale, and the Vale nestled on the East coast would be a convenient stop for a dragon rider coming to Westeros from the East. Note however that he never gets to tell Tywin of his plan to reduce the Vale to ash, as he will not actually do so.

Tyrion will fly to the Eyrie to take his revenge on Lysa and the Vale wholesale, only when he arrives he is going to find his wife and Robert basically prisoner there and Lysa long dead. To our budding young manipulator his arrival is salvation, and she's not about to let him leave without saving the day. Yes Tyrion thinks Sansa probably murdered Joff and ran out on him, but that's probably a conversation for another day, and that conversation doesn't end with Tyrion killing her or leaving her to die, or even disowning her, she is his wife. And so, as she is his wife he's also not about to murder her child cousin or commit genocide in front of her, or leave her to die. As the situation requires, Sansa will work Tyrion towards what she wants, and by the time Sansa is ready to leave the Vale it will be at peace, forced by dragon fire, threat or realised, with SR safe and a loyal Lord to care for him and rule the Vale. Tyrion will take the Vale, bloodlessly like Visenya or near enough, but through the appointed Lord Protector and SR it will be Sansa that will truly gain. This will be the circumstances under which Sansa will finally leave the Vale.

With Tyrion, Sansa will go to KL. Tyrion will be welcome there because by now Aegon will control KL. Much of ADWD was softening up KL for Aegon to take it, Aegon's arrival will be the answer to the HS's prayers. Like the first dance, control of KL will sway between the participants, Aegon to Dany, and Tyrion will be openly hostile to neither, and as such his wife will be free to stay there. Aegon likes Tyrion, Tyrion gave him his best ever piece of advice and saved his life. Dany will not dislike Tyrion, and as a dragon rider he will be a desired ally to both. Tyrion however will remain uncommitted while the dance plays out. Details of that here.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/133451-tyrion-will-not-be-on-danys-side-during-the-dance/

Aegon and Dany will not give a rat's arse Tyrion and Sansa supposedly murdered Joff. That issue is off the table until those two are off the throne.

And so Sansa will find herself in proximity to competing controlling powers during a time of great upheaval. She must, her arc, pawn to player, demands it. It is LF during the WOT5Ks.

Sansa's worth to the story is primarily that of a vehicle to display the game of thrones. We have watched from the sidelines the primaries Varys and LF do their work. We've seen Margaery do a bit here and there, Cersei's awful attempts and Ned's tragic non-attempts. It's all groundwork for Sansa. Sansa is the conduit for the reader to see the game of thrones played right, first hand through the eyes of a character we can cheer for, so that we may glory with her in her triumph.

She's not fucking going North, there's the barest of story thread in that and none of the dramatic potential of her South. KL is where the game is played, won and lost, even more so if a character is not a commander. KL is where the Starks were found out of their depth and destroyed, where Ned's head was lopped off and Tywin won the WOT5Ks with the stroke of a quill. KL is the only location with the factions, reach and power to properly bring to fruition a character arc about the game of thrones, where the small councils, kings and hands meet to decide their battle and peace plans. The North has not the variation or depth of character required to do such an arc justice, and with Jon's emergence only a matter of time there's not the room either.

The South is where the relationships of any depth forged with Sansa during the series exist. Jaime, the redemption knight who has sworn an oath to her mother to keep her safe. Brienne has been running around with half her father's sword for fucking three books now looking for her to also make good on a pledge to keep her safe. The gravedigger who invades her every romantic thought is chilling down South awaiting a reason to get his growl on again. Cersei, Sansa's betrayer and gaoler, awaits the real younger more beautiful queen to come cast her down. And greatest of all, Tyrion. I will dwell on Tyrion some.

His plot so far has been half dedicated to explaining his vulnerability to the manipulations of beautiful young women who can play to his yearning for love. GRRM married him to Sansa. Sansa is a young beautiful girl learning to manipulate people, including men by means of charm and very recently sexuality. She sees how LF had Lysa wrapped around his little finger. She uses kisses and sweet words to lure Sweetrobin the direction she desires.

Spoiler

And lately she's been playing hard to get with the red blooded Harry.

This shit is training, and it's training primarily to suit her husband's greatest weakness.
 

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Why is he looking at me that way?

 

Is this some Lannister trap to make me speak treason?

 

What does he want me to say?

 

He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be?

 

These are boomerangs set to come back. Innocent dumb Sansa couldn't work out what Tyrion wanted from her. New and improved player Sansa will, and she will give the child the love he craves, or dangle it like a carrot, exploiting it for all it is worth, and as Tyrion will be a dragon rider, snarling in the midst of dragons, a giant come amongst us, stands as tall as a king, blah blah, it will have great worth.

I'll explain what she's specifically set to do in the South and other stuff in replies as this is taking too long.

[chrisdaw]

Saving to edit in more later.

[Gertrude]

So far I'm disagreeing with just about every conclusion you've drawn. I'm interested in seeing more, however. Sansa may or may not go North, but I do tend to think she will, even if she doesn't end out her days there.

As for Sansa failing in the Vale, I disagree. Jon and Dany have set backs, but they were thrust into the spotlight before they were ready. Of all the young adults in the story, I think Sansa is most ready to lead and do a good job. She's been through hell and come out the other side, and she's the one who's been given the best environment to absorb the lessons she's learned before having to put them into use. She doesn't have to be a master-mind on the level of Petyr, but she has a real gift for diplomacy and knowing what her limits are. I feel she will continue to climb without another major set-back. Small set-backs perhaps, but not of her own making.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I agree with a lot and disagree with some of what you've posted.  I also like and have never seen the comment about Lady Forlone matching Sansa's direwolfs name.  I definitely think Sansa will off LF, but I just don't understand how that will lead to her and Robert being prisoners up in the Eyrie.  I also think Sansa has already screwed up, she screwed up back in AGOT when Arya and Jon and Robb all succeeded, hell even Bran became a demi god, so I don't think she needs to fail now.

[Ice Turtle]

I agree that we (and Sansa) will stay in the Vale for a while and I agree that we (and Sansa) will return to the Eyrie and to a degree I agree that either Sansa or LF will overreach in their play, but I think that they will underestimate Cersei.  

However I have issue with few other points. I do not think we have to lose Littlefinger just because he is not evolving, he is a supporting character without POV he doesn't need to be another Jaime or Theon. That said I think he will die

Where I disagree with like 90% of the others posters on this forum is that I do not think that Sansa will play any significant role in the conflict with Others, maybe she doesn't even have role in Dance of Dragons, she is mostly tied to the game of Thrones and this arc is nearing its conclusion. IMO she is more Robb than Jon, Arya and Bran.

Tyrion is likely to return to Vale, and the similarity between Sweetrobin and boy king Ronnel Arryn is truly very strong, but neither Sansa nor Littlefinger need to be there for this history to be repeated. I do not think that Tyrion's issues with Sansa are that important for books, especially compared to Tyrion's unresolved buisess with Cersei, Jaime, fAegon  and Jon.

[chrisdaw]

5 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I agree with a lot and disagree with some of what you've posted.  I also like and have never seen the comment about Lady Forlone matching Sansa's direwolfs name.  I definitely think Sansa will off LF, but I just don't understand how that will lead to her and Robert being prisoners up in the Eyrie.  I also think Sansa has already screwed up, she screwed up back in AGOT when Arya and Jon and Robb all succeeded, hell even Bran became a demi god, so I don't think she needs to fail now.

Lady Forlorn will be Sandors sword. It is the new Just Maid, Sandor Galladon, the Maid Sansa the speculated 8 foot giant mounted on an auroch the mountain that rides. Galladon used it only 3 times, once against a dragon (Sandor will brave dragon's fire) and once against a demon (Ungregor). Lady Forlorn was used to kill another wildly tall enemy who felt no pain in the battle of the seven stars. Sandor is Sansa's future protector as Lady is her dead protector, she will give Lady Forlorn to Sandor as the maid gave Gallandon the magic Just Maid. Lyn is a paedophile, Sandor has spent the whole series protecting children, it's an inverse thing. It has a heart shaped ruby pommel, indicative of their unrealised romantic relationship.

2 hours ago, Ice Turtle said:

I agree that we (and Sansa) will stay in the Vale for a while and I agree that we (and Sansa) will return to the Eyrie and to a degree I agree that either Sansa or LF will overreach in their play, but I think that they will underestimate Cersei.  

However I have issue with few other points. I do not think we have to lose Littlefinger just because he is not evolving, he is a supporting character without POV he doesn't need to be another Jaime or Theon. That said I think he will die

Where I disagree with like 90% of the others posters on this forum is that I do not think that Sansa will play any significant role in the conflict with Others, maybe she doesn't even have role in Dance of Dragons, she is mostly tied to the game of Thrones and this arc is nearing its conclusion. IMO she is more Robb than Jon, Arya and Bran.

Tyrion is likely to return to Vale, and the similarity between Sweetrobin and boy king Ronnel Arryn is truly very strong, but neither Sansa nor Littlefinger need to be there for this history to be repeated. I do not think that Tyrion's issues with Sansa are that important for books, especially compared to Tyrion's unresolved buisess with Cersei, Jaime, fAegon  and Jon.

Cersei's time is about up for the now, Aegon is close and she will be locked away during the dance, languishing in a dungeon or perhaps she makes it to CR.

Sharra has more characterisation than Ronnel and like the mule Robert isn't getting on any dragon with Tyrion without Sansa's coaxing (and likely going too). He's not going to be getting on for any joyride. We've had this scene multiple times, Sansa coaxing SR to do something he is afraid of or doesn't want to do, it's all for this. "Do not fear Tyrion my sweetling, he is my husband, family, he would never harm you so. He has flown here just like the winged knight, so brave, to save you and me. Please sweetling, I am afraid, if I stay up here I will surely freeze or starve to death, I do not think I can ride on the dragon unless you're there to protect me, please for me SR show me how brave you are."

It won't just be about SR, it's about Tyrion too. Tyrion will arrive ready to burn the Vale down, he hates SR and thinks Sansa betrayed him. Sansa will turn him, manipulate him, before he knows it Sansa will give him the role of hero to play, of the knight in shining armour, and he will gobble it up. Tysha and Shae stuff straight back at him.

Likely when they get up the Eyrie the pass will be destroyed, avalanche or some such, or the snows really will make it impassable, otherwise Tyrion could just lift the siege and they could come down the normal way, which isn't what GRRM wants. Sansa will almost literally corner herself up there her first attempt at playing the game.

I don't know when or how LF is going to be separated from Sansa or die if that is to happen in the Vale. But a possibility I like is LF making it all the way up the Eyrie with SR and Sansa and when Tyrion brings down Sansa and SR and is going back for LF Sansa tells him not to, fuck him, leave him to starve, freeze or come down the same way Lysa did.

Tyrion and Shae take up more page than Tyrion and anyone else, his desire for love is his defining flaw, a disease as Cersei terms it. Much has been dedicated to it, it's not about to be put aside, there's no reason to dismiss it. It's all preparation on his side for Sansa playing him, it will be front and centre.

[Nevets]

So Sansa's careful construction of a detailed model of Winterfell - her home - out of snow signifies ... nothing?  Foreshadows ... nothing?  Sansa is a Stark, she is a Northerner, she is a wolf.  Her place is in the North.  There is nothing for her in the South.  Any interest in the South, or in power (at least for its own sake) has been thoroughly beaten out of her by Cersei and Joffrey (literally as well as figuratively).  As for the importance of the Vale story,the Vale is important because it is where she happens to be located.  As far as the overall story is concerned it has importance, but not so vital that a POV has to be there.  Kind of like Casterly Rock or Highgarden.

I agree that Littlefinger's time in the story is nearing its end, probably at Sansa's hands.  I also agree that she is likely to reconnect with Tyrion.  They have unfinished business, and unlike Ice Turtle, I think they are at least as important as those he has with Jaime and fAegon, and certainly Jon.  She is, after all, stil his wife.

I think she will go North.  This will be either to reclaim Winterfell and keep it from the Boltons (I don't see Rickon returning anytime soon), or to help rally support against the Others.  If she doesn't go North, she may show up in the Riverlands, but I don't really see much for her there, either.  Although her mother grew up at Riverrun, she has no real connection to it, unlike Winterfell and the North.  With respect to the Others, Ice Turtle has it backwards.  90% of poster do not think she will have anything to do with the Others, at least from what I have seen.  The idea is universally discounted.  I actually think she may be a rallying figure.  She is more likely to take the threat seriously since she is from the North, and from its rulers' family, and Jon Snow is her brother.  She may not have liked him, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't take what he says seriously.

As for the South, why the hell would she go there?  Meaningful relationships?  Jaime is nothing to her.  She is doing everything she can to avoid Cersei, and will continue to do so (I think the YMBQ is Margaery, created by Cersei's own actions and paranoia).  Brienne and Sandor, once they find out her location, can join her wherever she happens to be if they wish, if they don't join her in the Vale first.  She and fAegon have, as far as I can tell, nothing to offer each other, at least at this juncture.  As for the North, her father's bannerman are up there, and it's a place with which she is familiar.

[chrisdaw]

58 minutes ago, Nevets said:

So Sansa's careful construction of a detailed model of Winterfell - her home - out of snow signifies ... nothing?  Foreshadows ... nothing?

It's not foreshadowing, it has already happened. She built WF as it was, her happy home, and it was destroyed by the Giant. But it was her happy home because it was filled with her family and because Sansa was different then. Her family can not be brought back and she will not be the same. The point of the scene is that there is a giant, a single person who destroyed WF, it's for her to realise who.

58 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Sansa is a Stark, she is a Northerner, she is a wolf.  Her place is in the North.

That's debateable. GRRM had her wolf killed, made her a Lannister. Sansa Stark or Lannister is the central question of her arc. They've made me a Lannister, she says. It hasn't even begun to be explored or brought to conclusion. Sansa was a victim in KL, it's nothing for her to shed the Lannister name or trappings, it's not a story, yet. But when she returns a player, when she gathers power and realises all those things AGOT Sansa craved, then there becomes a meaningful question. Then she has something to sacrifice in choosing Stark over Lannister. It's North vs South playing out inside Sansa's heart. That's where your story is, and she won't have to choose until the end.

58 minutes ago, Nevets said:

As for the South, why the hell would she go there?  Meaningful relationships?  Jaime is nothing to her.  She is doing everything she can to avoid Cersei, and will continue to do so (I think the YMBQ is Margaery, created by Cersei's own actions and paranoia).  Brienne and Sandor, once they find out her location, can join her wherever she happens to be if they wish, if they don't join her in the Vale first.  She and fAegon have, as far as I can tell, nothing to offer each other, at least at this juncture.  As for the North, her father's bannerman are up there, and it's a place with which she is familiar.

Jaime is becoming Tywin, set to be Hand and the Kingmaker, he will be influential, powerful, and his honour has come to be dependant on Sansa's safety. This shit doesn't just happen, it gets carefully crafted. A player needs pawns, Jaime is a pawn in waiting for Sansa, as is Brienne, Tyrion and Sandor. No-one is going North but perhaps for a dragon ride day trip. Cersei is her antagonist waiting in the wings. Here, the is a story here.

In comparison, in the North there is fuck all but a pile of rubbles. She gives what? One? Two lines of thought to Jon? The whole series, and that's more than anyone else left in the North. Jon and Stannis give her two lines back. The Boltons? Compare them to Cersei for an antagonist going forward, the woman took advantage of naïve Sansa, had her betray her father and was the driving force behind her losing her wolf. Has Sansa even given the Bolton's a single line of thought?

Your big time prophecies are not going to be fulfilled with a whimper by non POV side characters.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

You silly if Sansa never goes back North how then can she get raped by Ramsay?

[Ice Turtle]

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Cersei's time is about up for the now, Aegon is close and she will be locked away during the dance, languishing in a dungeon or perhaps she makes it to CR.

Sharra has more characterisation than Ronnel and like the mule Robert isn't getting on any dragon with Tyrion without Sansa's coaxing (and likely going too). He's not going to be getting on for any joyride. We've had this scene multiple times, Sansa coaxing SR to do something he is afraid of or doesn't want to do, it's all for this. "Do not fear Tyrion my sweetling, he is my husband, family, he would never harm you so. He has flown here just like the winged knight, so brave, to save you and me. Please sweetling, I am afraid, if I stay up here I will surely freeze or starve to death, I do not think I can ride on the dragon unless you're there to protect me, please for me SR show me how brave you are."

It won't just be about SR, it's about Tyrion too. Tyrion will arrive ready to burn the Vale down, he hates SR and thinks Sansa betrayed him. Sansa will turn him, manipulate him, before he knows it Sansa will give him the role of hero to play, of the knight in shining armour, and he will gobble it up. Tysha and Shae stuff straight back at him.

Likely when they get up the Eyrie the pass will be destroyed, avalanche or some such, or the snows really will make it impassable, otherwise Tyrion could just lift the siege and they could come down the normal way, which isn't what GRRM wants. Sansa will almost literally corner herself up there her first attempt at playing the game.

I don't know when or how LF is going to be separated from Sansa or die if that is to happen in the Vale. But a possibility I like is LF making it all the way up the Eyrie with SR and Sansa and when Tyrion brings down Sansa and SR and is going back for LF Sansa tells him not to, fuck him, leave him to starve, freeze or come down the same way Lysa did.

Tyrion and Shae take up more page than Tyrion and anyone else, his desire for love is his defining flaw, a disease as Cersei terms it. Much has been dedicated to it, it's not about to be put aside, there's no reason to dismiss it. It's all preparation on his side for Sansa playing him, it will be front and centre.

IMO Lysa has more similarities with Sharna than Sansa, Sharna was past her prime when Aegon arrived and Cersei would be even more similar to her than either of them. Not to mention that the Targ who originally flew to Vale was Visenya so no flirting took the place.

Cersei is almost done, and forgetting this "almost" will prove fatal for some. Not to mention that Cersie won't go down quietly and peacefully, she has unfinished business with Sansa, she won't just forget that. 

Yes Tyrion has issues with love, and Sansa is a part of that but IMO only a very small one, Tysha is his wife too, he thinks about her a lot a still I think it unlikely that we will ever meet her.

[chrisdaw]

The name play is pretty clear, Ronnel for Robert, Sharra for Sansa. Sansa is in the motherly role that Sharra was. Visenya and Viserion were obviously set before he ever provided this scene of foreshadowing, but he didn't need to name Sharra Sharra or really even have the character at all. Ronnel could have been held by anyone of any sex or any age, and the character didn't even need to be named.

I don't agree Cersei is almost done, she'll be put on ice for the dance, then come back to play when Aegon and Dany are gone. The Cersei Vs Sansa + Tyrion/Jaime showdown needs breathing space and a scattered realm, it doesn't fit before Aegon and the dance. It fits after the dance and after Dany is pushed out, Cersei and Sansa vying for the remnants of those who were for Aegon or Dany.

How people can not see Sansa the manipulator is ying to Tyrion's flaw yang is really beyond me. I doubt there's a more explained character weakness in the text, and player Sansa just slots right in there. And he married them. Sansa is going to play the fuck out of him and come to feel guilty about it, because he's not all that bad. And Tyrion is going to be constantly worrying if he's doing it all again, falling for another Shae. And so they'll go until something gives.

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

12 hours ago, Ice Turtle said:

 

I agree that we (and Sansa) will stay in the Vale for a while and I agree that we (and Sansa) will return to the Eyrie and to a degree I agree that either Sansa or LF will overreach in their play, but I think that they will underestimate Cersei.  

 

How/why do you expect them to return to the Eyrie from the Gates of the Moon?  With winter here, it seems to me that decent up the mountain would be illogical and suicidal.

[chrisdaw]

The Eyrie is impregnable, it could be held with 10 men against a million. Thus in a bitter war if someone refuses to accept defeat they can hold up there for as long as they have food, just to piss the other off knowing full well they will die or to try and force terms. Or if they have some reason to think help is on it's way it will buy time. It is an act of desperation.

The most likely scenario I think is Harry dies, Yohn blames LF/Nestor and attacks, demanding SR. Nestor refuses and hides behind the gates. Eventually Yohn gets through the gates (secret goat trail by the Giant's Lance most probably) and Nestor is left with only two choices. Surrender and accept that Yohn will strip him of the gates or try his luck up the Eyrie. Nestor hates Yohn looking down on him, believes he rightfully earned the Gates through hard work and sacrifice, Nestor may be willing to die or try anything before letting Yohn strip him and his children of the gates.

[Ice Turtle]

4 hours ago, Yet Another Stark Fan said:

How/why do you expect them to return to the Eyrie from the Gates of the Moon?  With winter here, it seems to me that decent up the mountain would be illogical and suicidal.

Doing that just for the fun certainly would be illogical (Westerosi live dangerous lives they do not need suicidal sports like we in RW), but it is the most defendable place around, sort of being created as the last desperate refuge for times when the choices are sure death and likely death.