Small Questions v. 10105

[DarkSister1001]

7 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The way it is presented, and what has been confirmed through semi-canon source, is that it had been the wine, and  had been meant to kill Joffrey.

However, there are those who theorize that the poison had been in the pie, and that the intended target had been Tyrion, not Joffrey.

 

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The wine. 

 

4 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The pie theory is honestly one of the least convincing "theories" i've seen, and i read Mance is rhaegar

Thanks everyone!  Not just for this but for always being so quick, thorough and helpful on here. 

I had not seen the pie theory but I couldn't remember which it was since he was eating and drinking when he died. 

[Dr Qyburn M.D]

8 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

AFfC, Cersei VII.

Thanks pal

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

 

 

Thanks everyone!  Not just for this but for always being so quick, thorough and helpful on here. 

I had not seen the pie theory but I couldn't remember which it was since he was eating and drinking when he died. 

Joffrey take multiple (2 or more) drinks of wine, one time guzzling it.  And continues to speak.  Maester Cressen sips the last bit left, and cannot even cry out when he tries to; only the "whistle" comes out. 

[finger]

3 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Joffrey take multiple (2 or more) drinks of wine, one time guzzling it.  And continues to speak.  Maester Cressen sips the last bit left, and cannot even cry out when he tries to; only the "whistle" comes out. 

I have a thought about it. It may be the poison takes some time to dissolve or it tends to be more concentrated al the bottom of the cup. or both. That could be the reason why Melisandre could drink the first sips unscathed. It would also explain why Joffrey didn't feel the effect at the beginning. It could work, but I don't really know, I lack that link in my chain.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We don't know why Melisandre survived drinking the wine. It is possible all of the poison was concentrated into the very last sip that Cressen drank, due to her use of magic. 

They also differ in age and health, which might have an influence as well.

[DarkSister1001]

Couldn't it just have been a different poison?

[HexMachina]

4 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We don't know why Melisandre survived drinking the wine. It is possible all of the poison was concentrated into the very last sip that Cressen drank, due to her use of magic. 

They also differ in age and health, which might have an influence as well.

Actually I always thought Mel survived because of her ruby. We find out in Dany's chapter when she has been to see about getting ships that she wears a gem around her neck which supposedly guards against poisons

[finger]

The poison is "the strangler" in both cases, pretty sure.

My thought is about the qualities of the poison. it's simple to think that once some drops fall into a cup of wine, all the liquid is equally poisoned, but it's more real to think otherwise. It might take some time to dissolve, or even the poison is more dense than wine, and it goes to the bottom unless it's shaken or stirred. In fact, there are no drops, the poison is solid, so it's easy to think of some crystal bits going to the bottom at first.

I'd like to be clear, there's no evidence in this sense, as far as I recall. These are just musings whilethe book comes out. I only hope they aren't completely crazy.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Actually I always thought Mel survived because of her ruby. We find out in Dany's chapter when she has been to see about getting ships that she wears a gem around her neck which supposedly guards against poisons

Interesting. Could you quote the passage? I can't seem to find it.

If the ruby saved her, the question of "how?" still remains. By concentrating the poison into the one sip that she didn't drink? She might not have ingested any of the poison herself at all.

Which would, in part, explain the slight difference in length until the effects of the poison become as severe to the point of chocking. The amount of poison one ingests at once, the age and health of the person ingesting it.. that could all influence the speed of the poison's effects.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Actually I always thought Mel survived because of her ruby. We find out in Dany's chapter when she has been to see about getting ships that she wears a gem around her neck which supposedly guards against poisons

There is definitely something up with Mel. Is she undead in some way? Is her ruby holding her thrall to someone else like the ruby she uses to glamour Mance? Is that glamour the thing keeping her looking young?  Mel works with potions and poisons and has possibly developed a resistance to some, espcially if they are slightly diluted. In Dance, Mel mentions how her potion supplies are running low.

"The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients."

Also, compare this to the Waif in HoBW where it is said that she has a resistance to some of the poisons they use there and that could be what keeps her looking younger than her real years.

[HexMachina]

43 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Interesting. Could you quote the passage? I can't seem to find it.

If the ruby saved her, the question of "how?" still remains. By concentrating the poison into the one sip that she didn't drink? She might not have ingested any of the poison herself at all.

Which would, in part, explain the slight difference in length until the effects of the poison become as severe to the point of chocking. The amount of poison one ingests at once, the age and health of the person ingesting it.. that could all influence the speed of the poison's effects.

Here is the quote:

“A dream delayed, no more.” Dany’s tight silver collar was chafing against her throat. She unfastened it and flung it aside. The collar was set with an enchanted amethyst that Xaro swore would ward her against all poisons. The Pureborn were notorious for offering poisoned wine to those they thought dangerous, but they had not given Dany so much as a cup of water. They never saw me for a queen, she thought bitterly. I was only an afternoon’s amusement, a horse girl with a curious pet."

If I had to speculate I would say that (assuming it actually works) the gem is enchanted so as to neutralise any poison as it passes by it. So had Dany swallowed poison it would be neutralised and become harmless. Assuming it works of couse, and isn't just nonesense.

39 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is definitely something up with Mel. Is she undead in some way? Is her ruby holding her thrall to someone else like the ruby she uses to glamour Mance? Is that glamour the thing keeping her looking young?  Mel works with potions and poisons and has possibly developed a resistance to some, espcially if they are slightly diluted. In Dance, Mel mentions how her potion supplies are running low.

"The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients."

Also, compare this to the Waif in HoBW where it is said that she has a resistance to some of the poisons they use there and that could be what keeps her looking younger than her real years.

Hmm, good point about the possibility of her not being entirely alive. I never considered that explanation for her surviving the poison before

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

43 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There is definitely something up with Mel. Is she undead in some way? Is her ruby holding her thrall to someone else like the ruby she uses to glamour Mance? Is that glamour the thing keeping her looking young?  Mel works with potions and poisons and has possibly developed a resistance to some, espcially if they are slightly diluted. In Dance, Mel mentions how her potion supplies are running low.

"The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients."

Also, compare this to the Waif in HoBW where it is said that she has a resistance to some of the poisons they use there and that could be what keeps her looking younger than her real years.

No resistance. She has been affected by the poisons. 

The next day she told the kindly man what the waif had claimed. “She did not lie,” the priest said, chuckling. “The one you call waif is a woman grown who has spent her life serving Him of Many Faces. She gave Him all she was, all she ever might have been, all the lives that were within her.”
Arya bit her lip. “Will I be like her?”
“No,” he said, “not unless you wish it. It is the poisons that have made her as you see her.”
Poisons. She understood then. Every evening after prayer the waif emptied a stone flagon into the waters of the black pool.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Here is the quote:

“A dream delayed, no more.” Dany’s tight silver collar was chafing against her throat. She unfastened it and flung it aside. The collar was set with an enchanted amethyst that Xaro swore would ward her against all poisons. The Pureborn were notorious for offering poisoned wine to those they thought dangerous, but they had not given Dany so much as a cup of water. They never saw me for a queen, she thought bitterly. I was only an afternoon’s amusement, a horse girl with a curious pet."

If I had to speculate I would say that (assuming it actually works) the gem is enchanted so as to neutralise any poison as it passes by it. So had Dany swallowed poison it would be neutralised and become harmless. Assuming it works of couse, and isn't just nonesense.

Interesting.. Thanks for the quote!  

[HexMachina]

Also, possibly in support of the gem idea is this;

“He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.”
Just a small thing, but her ruby is specifically mentioned after drinking the poisoned wine. And Dany later drops info about a gem to protect her against poisoned wine. And we learn in Dance that Melisandre is mostly smoke and mirrors, creating an illusion of power. Chances are she saw the attempted Oisin in the flames (danger to herself is the first thing she sees) and took the precaution of wearing a gem she had in her chest of tricks.

Not that this is all that important, but it just seems likely to me

[The Fattest Leech]

34 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

No resistance. She has been affected by the poisons. 

The next day she told the kindly man what the waif had claimed. “She did not lie,” the priest said, chuckling. “The one you call waif is a woman grown who has spent her life serving Him of Many Faces. She gave Him all she was, all she ever might have been, all the lives that were within her.”
Arya bit her lip. “Will I be like her?”
“No,” he said, “not unless you wish it. It is the poisons that have made her as you see her.”
Poisons. She understood then. Every evening after prayer the waif emptied a stone flagon into the waters of the black pool.

I was this close! 

Thank you. I guess I am still confusing the two after all this time? Somethings just stick like bad habits. 

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We don't know why Melisandre survived drinking the wine. It is possible all of the poison was concentrated into the very last sip that Cressen drank, due to her use of magic. 

They also differ in age and health, which might have an influence as well.

The answer IMO is surprising simple.

Quote

Taking his arm, Pylos led him inside. In his youth, Cressen had walked briskly, but he was not far from his eightieth name day now, and his legs were frail and unsteady. Two years past, he had fallen and shattered a hip, and it had never mended properly. Last year when he took ill, the Citadel had sent Pylos out from Oldtown, mere days before Lord Stannis had closed the isle . . . to help him in his labors, it was said, but Cressen knew the truth. Pylos had come to replace him when he died. He did not mind. Someone must take his place, and sooner than he would like . . .

Pylos is assisting Cressen and will eventually replace him when he dies. Then Cressen takes out the poison and leaves it out when he takes a nap.

Quote

His chambers seemed dim and gloomy after the brightness of the morning. With fumbling hands, the old man lit a candle and carried it to the workroom beneath the rookery stair, where his ointments, potions, and medicines stood neatly on their shelves. On the bottom shelf behind a row of salves in squat clay jars he found a vial of indigo glass, no larger than his little finger. It rattled when he shook it. Cressen blew away a layer of dust and carried it back to his table. Collapsing into his chair, he pulled the stopper and spilled out the vial's contents. A dozen crystals, no larger than seeds, rattled across the parchment he'd been reading. They shone like jewels in the candlelight, so purple that the maester found himself thinking that he had never truly seen the color before.

The chain around his throat felt very heavy. He touched one of the crystals lightly with the tip of his little finger. Such a small thing to hold the power of life and death. It was made from a certain plant that grew only on the islands of the Jade Sea, half a world away. The leaves had to be aged, and soaked in a wash of limes and sugar water and certain rare spices from the Summer Isles. Afterward they could be discarded, but the potion must be thickened with ash and allowed to crystallize. The process was slow and difficult, the necessaries costly and hard to acquire. The alchemists of Lys knew the way of it, though, and the Faceless Men of Braavos . . . and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel. All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill.

He wakes up late despite the fact that Pylos should have awoken him. Pylos likely came in and saw the poison and warned Stannis and Mel, which is why Cressen wasn't woken up.

Quote

I must rest, Maester Cressen told himself. I must have all my strength come dark. My hands must not shake, nor my courage flag. It is a dreadful thing I do, yet it must be done. If there are gods, surely they will forgive me. He had slept so poorly of late. A nap would refresh him for the ordeal ahead. Wearily, he tottered off to his bed. Yet when he closed his eyes, he could still see the light of the comet, red and fiery and vividly alive amidst the darkness of his dreams. Perhaps it is my comet, he thought drowsily at the last, just before sleep took him. An omen of blood, foretelling murder . . . yes . . .

When he woke it was full dark, his bedchamber was black, and every joint in his body ached. Cressen pushed himself up, his head throbbing. Clutching for his cane, he rose unsteady to his feet. So late, he thought. They did not summon me. He was always summoned for feasts, seated near the salt, close to Lord Stannis. His lord's face swam up before him, not the man he was but the boy he had been, standing cold in the shadows while the sun shone on his elder brother. Whatever he did, Robert had done first, and better. Poor boy . . . he must hurry, for his sake.

Mel survived because Pylos knew about the poison and could have given her the antidote before time.

[finger]

20 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If the ruby saved her, the question of "how?" still remains. By concentrating the poison into the one sip that she didn't drink? She might not have ingested any of the poison herself at all.

Which would, in part, explain the slight difference in length until the effects of the poison become as severe to the point of chocking. The amount of poison one ingests at once, the age and health of the person ingesting it.. that could all influence the speed of the poison's effects.

In fact, the poison is concentrated at first in a bit of crystal.

I guess that if someone drinks from the cup when the crystal has been just thrown in, they'd swallow a tiny amount of poison, if any.  Otoh, the remaining wine will eventually contain a higher concentration of poison. This is only logical. There are still two questions unanswered : how long it takes the poison to dissolve (completely unknown) and if the crystals go to the bottom (unknown but seemingly.)

No evidence but two clues. Melisandre drinks first and suffers nothing, Cressen ends up the cup and chokes at once. Joffrey starts drinking and nothing happens but as he empties the cup, he has increasig troubles. He doesn't finish the cup and it takes him longer to die than Cressen. He was also much younger and stronger, and the cup was larger. No hint of how much poison was used in each case. No certainty, but...

[DarkSister1001]

1 hour ago, finger said:

In fact, the poison is concentrated at first in a bit of crystal.

I guess that if someone drinks from the cup when the crystal has been just thrown in, they'd swallow a tiny amount of poison, if any.  Otoh, the remaining wine will eventually contain a higher concentration of poison. This is only logical. There are still two questions unanswered : how long it takes the poison to dissolve (completely unknown) and if the crystals go to the bottom (unknown but seemingly.)

No evidence but two clues. Melisandre drinks first and suffers nothing, Cressen ends up the cup and chokes at once. Joffrey starts drinking and nothing happens but as he empties the cup, he has increasig troubles. He doesn't finish the cup and it takes him longer to die than Cressen. He was also much younger and stronger, and the cup was larger. No hint of how much poison was used in each case. No certainty, but...

Very good points. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, finger said:

In fact, the poison is concentrated at first in a bit of crystal.

I guess that if someone drinks from the cup when the crystal has been just thrown in, they'd swallow a tiny amount of poison, if any.  Otoh, the remaining wine will eventually contain a higher concentration of poison. This is only logical. There are still two questions unanswered : how long it takes the poison to dissolve (completely unknown) and if the crystals go to the bottom (unknown but seemingly.)

No evidence but two clues. Melisandre drinks first and suffers nothing, Cressen ends up the cup and chokes at once. Joffrey starts drinking and nothing happens but as he empties the cup, he has increasig troubles. He doesn't finish the cup and it takes him longer to die than Cressen. He was also much younger and stronger, and the cup was larger. No hint of how much poison was used in each case. No certainty, but...

Good and interesting points.

21 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

The answer IMO is surprising simple.

Pylos is assisting Cressen and will eventually replace him when he dies. Then Cressen takes out the poison and leaves it out when he takes a nap.

He wakes up late despite the fact that Pylos should have awoken him. Pylos likely came in and saw the poison and warned Stannis and Mel, which is why Cressen wasn't woken up.

Mel survived because Pylos knew about the poison and could have given her the antidote before time.

First of all, is there even an antidote? Second, if Pylos had seen the crystals, why leave them just where they were? Why not arrest Cressen, for treason? Third, Cressen could be found in his bedchamber, while the poison was in his work chambers. If Pylos had come to find Cressen, there was little risk of him seeing the tiny crystals by chance in a different room. 

As well, Pylos himself states that he had not even gone to Cressen

“His Grace commanded me to let you rest.” Pylos had at least the grace to blush. “He told me you were not needed here.”

So while technically possible that Pylos had seen the poison and warned others, it would be strange that no one acted against Cressen. Nor are there any hints that Pylos (or anyone else, for that matter) had seen the poison, no indication that anone else entered the rooms whilst Cressen had been asleep.

 

22 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Also, possibly in support of the gem idea is this;

“He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.”
Just a small thing, but her ruby is specifically mentioned after drinking the poisoned wine. And Dany later drops info about a gem to protect her against poisoned wine. And we learn in Dance that Melisandre is mostly smoke and mirrors, creating an illusion of power. Chances are she saw the attempted Oisin in the flames (danger to herself is the first thing she sees) and took the precaution of wearing a gem she had in her chest of tricks.

Not that this is all that important, but it just seems likely to me

I saw that one too. Interesting, in combination with the Daenerys quote. She does wear that ruby often, though, not specifically that evening. Perhaps, she just wears it as a precaution?

In any case, I would assume that Mel knew that Cressen wanted to poison her, as she tells him he can still spill the wine before ever tasting it. She might have seen it in her fires, as danger to herself is the first thing she looks for every time. The question then is "how did she survive?", and I find it very interesting to consider the possibility of the ruby, by some form of magic, having concentrated the poison in the wine she didn't drink, keeping her poison-free.

[DarkSister1001]

Any good theories on the magical properties of weirwood sap?  All this ruby talk led me to a search and aside from Mel, Rhaeger and gems there's an odd passage concerning the weirdwood sap.  It's when Jon is taking his vows.  He compares the red sap of the trees to rubies and to Ghosts eyes.