Small Questions v. 10105

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

47 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said:

I think there is a missing death or spot open for the KG at that time. Jamie is the youngest ever at 15, so that would mean Arthur becomes a KG no earlier than 276AC. He would be 16 in that year I believe. If there was no spot open in that year then we are not informed of a KG death. Jamie is easy to relate to replacing Harlan, Lewyn does seem to be tied to Gwayne but Arthur is difficult.

My only idea would be that a KG had accompanied Steffon on his mission and perished. That way Arthur is replacing Gwayne, Lewyn replaces the one lost with Steffon  and Jamie obviously with Harlan. Otherwise there was a spot open by the time Arthur turned 16 in 276AC. 

Arthur would have been at least 16 years old in 276 AC, yes, but that's only the youngest that he could possibly be. He could have joined several years before, and be a few years older.

Arthur cannot have replaced Gwayne, however. Gwayne died in 277 AC, while Arthur had joined prior to the tourney in the west in 276 AC.

 

We know little of Aerys's earlier KG knights.. Barristan in WOW might give us more info on it, perhaps. Or we might never know more. 

 

[rhoynestar]

17 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

A couple of other exceptions are the Iron Isles as a whole (e.g. Wex Pyke for Theon) and, with the Southrons, Podrick Payne.

 

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Not always. Robb was not a knight, and Olyvar was his squire, and knighthood was expected in due time. 

Nice points to chew on. If we assume Theon, Robb, and Tyrion were never knighted, then we might argue occasionally highborns can have squires even if they are not knights. 

Although if you are a lordling with no prospect of becoming a knight(Tyrion) I guess you'd have to put up with the dregs, so to speak -- squires who can't find a home elsewhere with a proper knight or knight-to-be (Robb or Theon would be expecting knighthood soon). Poor Pod. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

 

Nice points to chew on. If we assume Theon, Robb, and Tyrion were never knighted, then we might argue occasionally highborns can have squires even if they are not knights. 

Although if you are a lordling with no prospect of becoming a knight(Tyrion) I guess you'd have to put up with the dregs, so to speak -- squires who can't find a home elsewhere with a proper knight or knight-to-be (Robb or Theon would be expecting knighthood soon). Poor Pod. 

Luwin is instructive on this point...

Quote

 

“How many knights?”

“Few enough,” the maester said with a touch of impatience. “To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights … but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man’s worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before.”

“Still,” said Bran, “how many knights?”

Maester Luwin sighed. “Three hundred, perhaps four … among three thousand armored lances who are not knights.”

 

Those armored lances are the martial equivalent of knights. Each would have the sames needs as a knight. 

[rhoynestar]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Luwin is instructive on this point...

Those armored lances are the martial equivalent of knights. Each would have the sames needs as a knight. 

Yes, I agree the North is different and knighthood is more rare, and perhaps the Iron Isles as well. Squires in the North and Iron Isles would not necessarily be "squiring" for a knight.

Tyrion's case, though, shows that even in the South highborn non-knights can have squires. Likely an occasional deviation from the rule just for highborns -- would not apply to Dunk.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, rhoynestar said:

Yes, I agree the North is different and knighthood is more rare, and perhaps the Iron Isles as well. Squires in the North and Iron Isles would not necessarily be "squiring" for a knight.

Also relevant, perhaps (emphasize mine):

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

(source)

 

1 hour ago, rhoynestar said:

Tyrion's case, though, proves that even in the South highborn non-knights can have squires. 

Indeed, one of the earlier mentioned exceptions  

[Nittanian]

On 7/18/2016 at 10:56 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Yes, the legions from New Ghis. I've found it, in the mean time, however. In the notes of the Barristan II reading of Winds, legions are mentioned to be six thousand men. I assume that count goes for all six of the legions..

Should we be including info from readings on the wiki, as opposed to excerpts "published" on George's website or in the app?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

7 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Should we be including info from readings on the wiki, as opposed to excerpts "published" on George's website or in the app?

I think that the info could be very usefull. Perhaps, instead of linking to the chapter (e.g., The Winds of Winter, Barristan II, in this case), we can link to the place where the notes were given, so people can see the difference between a published chapter, whether on George's website, or on the app, and notes from a chapter that had only been read.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena’s bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Daeron the bastard.

So, can we take this as confirmation that Daemon Blackfyre was, for a certainty, older than Balerion Otherys? Aegon had legitimized all of his bastards, after all, including Balerion and his sisters.

[RumHam]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena’s bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Daeron the bastard.

So, can we take this as confirmation that Daemon Blackfyre was, for a certainty, older than Balerion Otherys? Aegon had legitimized all of his bastards, after all, including Balerion and his sisters.

I wouldn't say for a certainty, Balerion could have just been dead by then no? Then there's his "doubtful paternity."  If Balerion was older then Daemon or those supporting his claim would basically have to take up the position that Balerion wasn't really Aegon's son for their plan to work. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Somewhere, there's a statement (I think an SSM) stating that the rebels during Robert's Rebellion had fewer men than the loyalists. Can anyone help me find it?

 

19 hours ago, RumHam said:

I wouldn't say for a certainty, Balerion could have just been dead by then no? Then there's his "doubtful paternity."  If Balerion was older then Daemon or those supporting his claim would basically have to take up the position that Balerion wasn't really Aegon's son for their plan to work. 

I figured. Thanks!

[Consigliere]

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Somewhere, there's a statement (I think an SSM) stating that the rebels during Robert's Rebellion had fewer men than the loyalists. Can anyone help me find it?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Siege_of_Storms_End

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

12 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Siege_of_Storms_End

Thanks!  

[Martynn Lannister]

Did Cersei kill Melara?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, Martynn Lannister said:

Did Cersei kill Melara?

 

Most likely... After we read Cersei's dream in which she recalled having her fortune told, we find out that Melara fell down a well, and that Cersei heard her screams. And while Cersei did have a future, Maggy said one of them would not, leaving only Melara with no future. Obviously, Melara was not going to last long since worms--grave worms--would be crawling through her before she reached puberty, but note that Melara's death was there that night--it was described as feminine, and it was very close. It would seem reasonable to assume then that Cersei killed her before sunrise. Cersei was angry and jealous when she heard Melara ask if she would marry Jaime.

[Nittanian]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Somewhere, there's a statement (I think an SSM) stating that the rebels during Robert's Rebellion had fewer men than the loyalists. Can anyone help me find it?

It's also mentioned in TWOIAF.

Quote

The opponents were well matched. Rhaegar's forces numbered some forty thousand, a tenth part of which were anointed knights, while the rebels had somewhat fewer men, but those they possessed were tested in battle, while much of Rhaegar's force was raw and new.

 

Separately, the wiki says that Mors Umber had two sons, but where does it specify that number? ADWD Jon IV says, "When Mors was young he was a fearsome fighter. His sons died on the Trident, his wife in childbed. His only daughter was carried off by wildlings thirty years ago."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

It's also mentioned in TWOIAF.

Thanks!

2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Separately, the wiki says that Mors Umber had two sons, but where does it specify that number? ADWD Jon IV says, "When Mors was young he was a fearsome fighter. His sons died on the Trident, his wife in childbed. His only daughter was carried off by wildlings thirty years ago."

ADWD, Chapter 17 is listed as the reference for the two sons (who have been depicted on the family tree since 2013). However, the chapter itself states "sons" (as per the quote that you posted), so I think it is a bit of an awkward depiction of an unknown amount of sons. I adjusted the family tree accordingly.

[Sensenmenn]

2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

It's also mentioned in TWOIAF.

 

Separately, the wiki says that Mors Umber had two sons, but where does it specify that number? ADWD Jon IV says, "When Mors was young he was a fearsome fighter. His sons died on the Trident, his wife in childbed. His only daughter was carried off by wildlings thirty years ago."

Does any one know or have seen clues for what happened to his daughter? Or that some of here children are amung the wildlings that we have seen?

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Does any one know or have seen clues for what happened to his daughter? Or that some of here children are amung the wildlings that we have seen?

Interestingly, one of the spearwives, Rowan, seemed to hold Theon in great contempt. This alone would not have been suspect, but she also took great umbrage at Theon’s use of House Stark’s words, suggesting she was actually a daughter of the North rather than a native of the Free Folk, although their did seem to be a grudging respect of, or awe for, House Stark among the Free Folk. Rowan, tall and skinny, too lean and leathery to be called pretty, but attractive with auburn hair, could very well have been the daughter Mors lost during a wilding raid. Perhaps Mance stopped at Last Hearth with Rowan on his way to Winterfell. Perhaps Rowan convinced her father that he should not be demanding Mance’s skull for a drinking cup after all. Mors later arrived at Winterfell. He did not attack, but he started blowing war horns, presumably to instill fear in the defenders, but possibly to alert agents on the inside, and notice that was precisely when Mance decided it was time to bug out.

[Ckram]

@Sensenmenn 

 

[Sensenmenn]

Thanks guys I appreciate the help!!