Small Questions v. 10105

[Philokles]

21 minutes ago, LordImp said:

If for example Bran is waring Summer when Summer dies , what happen to Bran then ? Will he just return to his own body like nothing happen ? 

He would feel intense pain, but be physically unharmed. See Varamyr's Prologue and also when Melisandre burns Orell's eagle.

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No, Father, please, he tried to say, but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men, so all that emerged was a piteous whine. The axe crashed into the middle of the old dog's skull, and inside the hovel the boy let out a scream. That was how they knew. Prologue, ADWD

 

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the skinchanger Mance had left to guard his queen went mad when the eagle burned. Jon XI, ASOS

[Oakhearts head]

I was skimming through some chapters in A Storm of Swords today and come on this quote:

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Tom: The brotherhood without banners. The knights of the hollow hill.
Sandor: Knights? Dondarrion's a knight, but the rest of you are the sorriest lot of outlaws and broken men I've ever seen. I shit better men than you.
Beric: Any knight can make a knight, and every man you see before you has felt a sword upon his shoulder. We are the forgotten fellowship.

Are all of the members of the Brotherhood actually anointed knights? Even the likes Harwin, Greenbeard, Jack-Be-Lucky Thoros, etc? We see Gendry being knighted by Beric, but IIRC none of the other members are every referred to as "Ser" at any point.

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, LordImp said:

If for example Bran is waring Summer when Summer dies , what happen to Bran then ? Will he just return to his own body like nothing happen ? 

Consider Varamyr when his eagle combusted.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

I was skimming through some chapters in A Storm of Swords today and come on this quote:

Are all of the members of the Brotherhood actually anointed knights? Even the likes Harwin, Greenbeard, Jack-Be-Lucky Thoros, etc? We see Gendry being knighted by Beric, but IIRC none of the other members are every referred to as "Ser" at any point.

I doubt a knight of the Vale or the Reach would call them ser. But then again, Dunk the lunk wasn't a true knight either. What really makes a knight? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

11 hours ago, LordImp said:

If for example Bran is waring Summer when Summer dies , what happen to Bran then ? Will he just return to his own body like nothing happen ? 

Varamyr might have been amongst them if only he’d been stronger. The sea was grey and cold and far away, though, and he knew that he would never live to see it. He was nine times dead and dying, and this would be his true death. A squirrel-skin cloak, he remembered, he knifed me for a squirrel-skin cloak.
[...]

Haggon’s rough voice echoed in his head. “You will die a dozen deaths, boy, and every one will hurt … but when your true death comes, you will live again. The second life is simpler and sweeter, they say.”
Varamyr Sixskins would know the truth of that soon enough. He could taste his true death in the smoke that hung acrid in the air, feel it in the heat beneath his fingers when he slipped a hand under his clothes to touch his wound. The chill was in him too, though, deep down in his bones. This time it would be cold that killed him.
His last death had been by fire. I burned. At first, in his confusion, he thought some archer on the Wall had pierced him with a flaming arrow … but the fire had been inside him, consuming him. And the pain …
Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear’s teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. He died his first death when he was only six, as his father’s axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle’s eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he’d gone mad. Even the memory was enough to make him shudder.

He'll feel the pain Summer experiences, and depending on how much pain there is, it might affect him for a little while, e.g. like the death by fire of his eagle had affected Varamyr for a while, but he'll survive. 

 

7 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

I was skimming through some chapters in A Storm of Swords today and come on this quote:

Are all of the members of the Brotherhood actually anointed knights? Even the likes Harwin, Greenbeard, Jack-Be-Lucky Thoros, etc? We see Gendry being knighted by Beric, but IIRC none of the other members are every referred to as "Ser" at any point.

Well, Beric claims they have all been knighted, and he doesn't seem the type to lie about such things. They they do not refer to each other as Ser, or themselves, might imply how little knighthood has come to mean for them..?

[Rob Storm]

So was Jaime's pride the only thing that kept him from explaining to Ned how much he hated what happened to Brandon and he ultimately decided to make up with it by killing Aerys? I feel like Ned would have been able to understand a teenage kings guard who didn't know what he was getting into a year before at a tourney that really affected them all.  

[Oakhearts head]

22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I doubt a knight of the Vale or the Reach would call them ser. But then again, Dunk the lunk wasn't a true knight either. What really makes a knight? 

I'm just speaking in a technical sense. Even Davos Seaworth, a lowborn smuggler, is granted the title of "Ser" or "the Onion Knight" by nobility even if he is looked down on by most. Cortnay Penrose is oddly very polite towards Davos in Clash and actually seems to be being genuine.

 

21 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Well, Beric claims they have all been knighted, and he doesn't seem the type to lie about such things. They they do not refer to each other as Ser, or themselves, might imply how little knighthood has come to mean for them..?

I imagine it was Beric himself who knighted the other members of the Brotherhood, if that is the case. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Oakhearts head said:

I'm just speaking in a technical sense. Even Davos Seaworth, a lowborn smuggler, is granted the title of "Ser" or "the Onion Knight" by nobility even if he is looked down on by most. Cortnay Penrose is oddly very polite towards Davos in Clash and actually seems to be being genuine.

But it's a relative distinction. More importantly, as Maester Luwin says...

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"To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights . . . but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before."

So can a man be a knight if he has not stood vigil in a sept, and been anointed with the seven oils to consecrate his vows? 

[Bael's Bastard]

The Aerys II and False Spring sections of the World Book seem to contain contradictory information, and I was wondering if we have any other information to clear this up? The quotes from the Aerys II section state that Harlan Grandison died and Aerys offered Jaime the white cloak in 281 AC. It then says that Lord Whent announced the great tourney at Harrenhal shortly thereafter. But in the False Spring section it states that Lord Whent announced the tourney in late 280 AC.

Was the tourney announced in 281 AC as the Aerys II section implies, or was the tourney announced in late 280 AC as the False Spring section states? Was Jaime offered the white cloak in 281 AC or in 280 AC? Did Aerys offer Jaime the white cloak before or after the announcement of the tourney?

Below are the quotes in question.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II
"In 281 AC, however, the aged Kingsguard knight Ser Harlan Grandison passed away in his sleep, and the uneasy accord between Aerys II and his Hand finally snapped, when His Grace chose to offer a white cloak to Lord Tywin's eldest son."

"Shortly thereafter, Lord Walter Whent announced plans for a great tourney to be held at his seat at Harrenhal, to celebrate his maiden daughter's nameday. King Aerys II chose this event for the formal investiture of Ser Jaime Lannister as a knight of the Kingsguard...thus setting in motion the events that would end the Mad King's reign and write an end to the long rule of House Targaryen in the Seven Kingdoms."

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring
"This is known: The tourney was first announced by Walter Whent, Lord of Harrenhal, late in the year 280 AC, not long after a visit from his younger brother, Ser Oswell Whent, a knight of the Kingsguard. That this would be an event of unrivaled magnificence was clear from the first, for Lord Whent was offering prizes thrice as large as those given at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II's tenth year upon the Iron Throne."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Aerys II and False Spring sections of the World Book seem to contain contradictory information, and I was wondering if we have any other information to clear this up? The quotes from the Aerys II section state that Harlan Grandison died and Aerys offered Jaime the white cloak in 281 AC. It then says that Lord Whent announced the great tourney at Harrenhal shortly thereafter. But in the False Spring section it states that Lord Whent announced the tourney in late 280 AC.

Was the tourney announced in 281 AC as the Aerys II section implies, or was the tourney announced in late 280 AC as the False Spring section states? Was Jaime offered the white cloak in 281 AC or in 280 AC? Did Aerys offer Jaime the white cloak before or after the announcement of the tourney?

Below are the quotes in question.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II
"In 281 AC, however, the aged Kingsguard knight Ser Harlan Grandison passed away in his sleep, and the uneasy accord between Aerys II and his Hand finally snapped, when His Grace chose to offer a white cloak to Lord Tywin's eldest son."

"Shortly thereafter, Lord Walter Whent announced plans for a great tourney to be held at his seat at Harrenhal, to celebrate his maiden daughter's nameday. King Aerys II chose this event for the formal investiture of Ser Jaime Lannister as a knight of the Kingsguard...thus setting in motion the events that would end the Mad King's reign and write an end to the long rule of House Targaryen in the Seven Kingdoms."

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring
"This is known: The tourney was first announced by Walter Whent, Lord of Harrenhal, late in the year 280 AC, not long after a visit from his younger brother, Ser Oswell Whent, a knight of the Kingsguard. That this would be an event of unrivaled magnificence was clear from the first, for Lord Whent was offering prizes thrice as large as those given at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II's tenth year upon the Iron Throne."

In May, Ran said this:

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Can't easily untangle that one, as both are from material George wrote, and we missed the discrepancy. But 281 is certainly the year of the False Spring, so I guess the question is if it being announced late in 280 or early in 281 makes more sense.

Looking through my files, I'll tenatively say 280 simply because that date was the last one he provided. May have been an error on his part, or may have been he forgot about the date being given earlier, but it's the latest, so... there's that. That said, I'd call it tenative until such time as TWoIaF has an edition that corrects it, or I otherwise find out otherwise, as this is one we need to run past George

 

 

Jaime was definitly offered the white cloak in 281 AC. He was fifteen at the time, and his birth in 266 AC thus makes 280 AC impossible.

Harlan also died in 281 AC. The World Book clearly states it, and nothing contradicts that part.

The only contradiction is the date of the announcement of the tourney, which leaves us with the question "which occurred first? Aerys offering the cloak, or Whent announcing the tourney?", which Ran discussed in his post.

(The Lannisport tourney of 272 AC mentioned in the quoted passage would be the King's Landing tourney from 272 AC, both organized by Tywin).

[FearlessBoggart]

Who are some good Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire YouTubers to watch for theories, character sketches, book recaps, etc.? I know of Preston Jacobs, Alt Shift X, GoT Academy, but I was looking for some others.

[Bluetiger]

8 hours ago, FearlessBoggart said:

Who are some good Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire YouTubers to watch for theories, character sketches, book recaps, etc.? I know of Preston Jacobs, Alt Shift X, GoT Academy, but I was looking for some others.

Radio Westeros  History of Westeros Valkyrist Vassals of Kingsgrave Ran's channel  Rawrist

Not on YouTube but also great:

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/

https://weirwoodleviathan.wordpress.com/

https://culturewarsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/

https://bluewinterrose.wordpress.com/

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/

 

 

[Oakhearts head]

I have two separate questions:

1. Is it the norm for a Regent/Lord Protector to also have an assigned Hand? I know Cersei Lannister was to be Regent until Joffrey came of age and Tywin sent Tyrion to be the acting Hand while he was warring in the Riverlands against Robb Stark and the Tully's. Is this typical though?

2. If all had gone as planned for Ned, would he have remained in Kings Landing as Hand of the King to Stannis Baratheon? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

6 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

I have two separate questions:

1. Is it the norm for a Regent/Lord Protector to also have an assigned Hand? I know Cersei Lannister was to be Regent until Joffrey came of age and Tywin sent Tyrion to be the acting Hand while he was warring in the Riverlands against Robb Stark and the Tully's. Is this typical though?

I think so. Aegon III had multiple Hands of the King during the years of his regency, for example. And during the years of Jaehaerys I's minority, his mother served as regent while Robar Baratheon served as Hand.

 

6 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

2. If all had gone as planned for Ned, would he have remained in Kings Landing as Hand of the King to Stannis Baratheon? 

He wasn't planning on it, himself.

Ned chose each word with care. When he was done, he signed the letter Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, and Protector of the Realm, blotted the paper, folded it twice, and melted the sealing wax over the candle flame.
His regency would be a short one, he reflected as the wax softened. The new king would choose his own Hand. Ned would be free to go home. The thought of Winterfell brought a wan smile to his face. He wanted to hear Bran’s laughter once more, to go hawking with Robb, to watch Rickon at play. He wanted to drift off to a dreamless sleep in his own bed with his arms wrapped tight around his lady, Catelyn.

Of course, Stannis could have asked Ned, certainly. But whether Eddard would have been Stannis's first choice? Stannis's feelings regarding Eddard are not all that warmly.

Why should I avenge Eddard Stark? The man was nothing to me. Oh, Robert loved him, to be sure. Loved him as a brother, how often did I hear that? I was his brother, not Ned Stark, but you would never have known it by the way he treated me.

I would sooner expect that Stannis, had the transfer of rule gone as Eddard had hoped, would have chosen a Hand from amongst his own confidants. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

I have two separate questions:

1. Is it the norm for a Regent/Lord Protector to also have an assigned Hand? I know Cersei Lannister was to be Regent until Joffrey came of age and Tywin sent Tyrion to be the acting Hand while he was warring in the Riverlands against Robb Stark and the Tully's. Is this typical though?

It is actually even more complicated than that. We know from the Regency of Aegon III that there can be a Regency council instead of a single regent like there was during the minority of both Jaehaerys I and Joffrey. From Ran we also know that the Lord Protector can be an independent office/title because during the Regency of Aegon III Tyland Lannister became Hand (serving under the seven regents) while Leowyn Corbray - the elder brother of Corwyn Corbray, the first husband of Rhaena Targaryen, became the Protector of the Realm. It was unclear whether the Hand or the Lord Protector wielded more authority. One assumes that the Lord Protector was the one who had the last word in military affairs and all matters that concerned the security of the Realm.

Yet apparently it turned out that Leowyn was a man of limited imagination while the mutilated and blinded Ser Tyland was still strong enough to take charge. After both men succumbed to the Winter Fever Lord Unwin Peake was not only made regent and Hand (as we know from TWoIaF) but also Protector of the Realm, putting a lot of power in his hands.

If there is a stable regency government without a lot of sharing of power then it seems to be the rule that the offices of regent, Protector, and Hand are usually combined. This was the case with Alyssa Velaryon as Queen Regent and Lord Robar Baratheon as Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King during the minority of Jaehaerys I (it is not clear whether Alyssa married Lord Robert half a year after Jaehaerys I had taken the throne or half a year after her son had come of age and she and Robar had stepped down as regent and Protector).

A similar thing happens during the minority of Joffrey when Robert tries to make Ned Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm in addition to being Hand already. Later on Cersei takes the Regency and Protectorate for herself while making her father Hand (it is actually very odd that a woman could hold that title). After Cersei's arrest the Small Council names Ser Kevan Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm while the Handship has to given to Mace Tyrell, splitting power up between two houses. Mace now has to decide whether he'll take both the Regency and Protectorate for himself or whether he is going to share power with, say, Randyll Tarly.

Daeron II actually named his own son Baelor - who was also serving as his Hand - Protector of the Realm during his lifetime, probably because he wasn't a marital man and intended to smooth the succession.

When the king is not also the Protector and the Protector not also the Hand it is difficult to make out the hierarchy of offices. Prince Daemon seemed to have been more powerful in Rhaenyra's camp than her Hand, Corlys Velaryon. Prince Aemond as Regent and Protector was clearly more powerful than the Hand Criston Cole. Mace Tyrell is grudgingly (and barely) accepting the authority of Ser Kevan as Lord Regent.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Leowyn Corbray - the elder brother of Corwyn Corbray, the first husband of Rhaena Targaryen, became the Protector of the Realm.

I'm guessing that by virtue of commanding the Vale's largely unbloodied forces from the Dance for Lady Jeyne Arryn (particularly with the Northerners returned home/to the Riverlands, the Riverlands & Stormlands & Crownlands & Westerlands' forces ravaged, the Reach's divided & somewhat ravaged & more distant) & perhaps also Rhaena already being married to Corwyn; was how Leowyn rose to be Lord Protector & that the Vale forces acting like something of a peacekeeping force until Leowyn, Jeyne & Corwyn's deaths.

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

(it is not clear whether Alyssa married Lord Robar half a year after Jaehaerys I had taken the throne or half a year after her son had come of age and she and Robar had stepped down as regent and Protector).

I took that, & have seen others thinking the same, that Alyssa married Robar ~6 months after Jaehaerys came of age & she stepped down as Regent (& Robar as Lord Protector). Which makes her even more of a badass in being even older to marry Orys' grandson (whose own father may have not even been born until 8AC or after, given Orys' imprisonment during the First Dornish War) & not having Jocelyn until she was ~46!

[Lost Melnibonean]

Anybody know, or think they might be able to guess, who or what Gallawho of What, aka Galladon of More fought the three times he unsheathed Just Maid? 

ETA

He fought a dragon once, but what about the other two? 

ETA II

Lucifer Hardy is mentioned a few paragraphs above, and we all know what Lucifer means. Is Just Maid a proxy for Lightbringer? Is the legend of Gallawho of What a twist on Azor Ahai?

[Lommy's Shade]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

ETA II

Lucifer Hardy is mentioned a few paragraphs above, and we all know what Lucifer means. Is Just Maid a proxy for Lightbringer? Is the legend of Gallawho of What a twist on Azor Ahai?

I think if It's a proxy for any sword, it would Oathkeeper. Aside from the fact that Brienne is a "just maid" herself, it's one of the few swords in the story for which we know it's entire history. After Twyin had it forged from Ice, he gave it to Jaime who never used it and instead passed it to Brienne. Brienne never wore the sword, but kept it hidden in her bedroll. She has taken it out to use just twice, once against Pyg and Timeon at The Whispers and once at the inn to kill Rorge.

It suggests to me that there may yet be a third (and final?) time that Oathkeeper is used. No idea what it would be though. Any number of possibilities come to mind such as a dragon, or an Other, or even Lady Stoneheart? I do think it will be something epic.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Lommy's Shade said:

I think if It's a proxy for any sword, it would Oathkeeper. Aside from the fact that Brienne is a "just maid" herself, it's one of the few swords in the story for which we know it's entire history. After Twyin had it forged from Ice, he gave it to Jaime who never used it and instead passed it to Brienne. Brienne never wore the sword, but kept it hidden in her bedroll. She has taken it out to use just twice, once against Pyg and Timeon at The Whispers and once at the inn to kill Rorge.

It suggests to me that there may yet be a third (and final?) time that Oathkeeper is used. No idea what it would be though. Any number of possibilities come to mind such as a dragon, or an Other, or even Lady Stoneheart? I do think it will be something epic.

Ooh, good, a moment of foreshadowing! So, Brienne will slay a dragon, eh? 

[Isobel Harper]

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Anybody know, or think they might be able to guess, who or what Gallawho of What, aka Galladon of More fought the three times he unsheathed Just Maid? 

ETA

He fought a dragon once, but what about the other two? 

I'm gonna make an educated guess and say one of them was a "giant made from stone" of some kind.