Small Questions v. 10105

[Isobel Harper]

 As the salmon was being served, Ser Axell Florent had entertained the table with the tale of a Targaryen princeling who kept an ape as a pet. This prince liked to dress the creature in his dead son's clothes and pretend he was a child, Ser Axell claimed, and from time to time he would propose marriages for him. The lords so honored always declined politely, but of course they did decline. 

Any idea which Targaryen princeling this was? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Is it ever established why, exactly, Gared deserts the NW? Is it simply because he was so frightened by what he saw?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

13 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

 As the salmon was being served, Ser Axell Florent had entertained the table with the tale of a Targaryen princeling who kept an ape as a pet. This prince liked to dress the creature in his dead son's clothes and pretend he was a child, Ser Axell claimed, and from time to time he would propose marriages for him. The lords so honored always declined politely, but of course they did decline. 

Any idea which Targaryen princeling this was? 

Not really. Rhaegel used to be the most popular choice, but assuming that TWOIAF lists all of his children, he outlived his son, which would rule him out.

So which Targaryen prince outlived his son? There are a few, but none sound like the type to have dressed an ape in his dead son's clothes (Valarr, for example, had two stillborn sons, but when we see him in THK he does not seem to have been the type to have done such a thing).

However, not all Targaryen children are listed on the family tree for House Targaryen. So Rhaegel might still be a possibility, though I'd expect there to have been protests to him being the heir to the throne if he really had dressed an ape in his deceased son's clothes, and we have not heard of such things.

Perhaps, this Targaryen princeling was Prince Aegon, the younger brother of King Viserys I and Prince Daemon. He is not listed as having had children, but several children are not listed (those who died young). So perhaps, he was an option. Both Jaehaerys I and Viserys I sound like kings who would allow such a thing.

Perhaps it was Prince Maegor, Aerion's son by his cousin Daenora. We know barely anything about him, (we really only know his name, parentage, and year of birth), so it is really impossible to say anything with certainty about him. But if he had remained in Westeros, gotten married and had a son, this would have happened during the reign of Aegon V, who, just as Jaehaerys I and Viserys I, sounds like a man who would allow such a thing to happen. Additionally, the lords who "always declined politely" might have been somewhat offended by the offer, which could have created more problems for King Aegon V, whose reign was already troubled where the nobility was concerned to begin with (especially where marriage contracts were concerned!)

Another possibility would be that this occurred when the Targaryens only ruled Dragonstone, with the tale growing in the telling, changing "Targaryen lordling" into "Targaryen princeling" overtime. I'm personally not so convinced of the chances of this possibility, but it is worth to mention it.

[Shuvuuia]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Not really. Rhaegel used to be the most popular choice, but assuming that TWOIAF lists all of his children, he outlived his son, which would rule him out.

So which Targaryen prince outlived his son? There are a few, but none sound like the type to have dressed an ape in his dead son's clothes (Valarr, for example, had two stillborn sons, but when we see him in THK he does not seem to have been the type to have done such a thing).

However, not all Targaryen children are listed on the family tree for House Targaryen. So Rhaegel might still be a possibility, though I'd expect there to have been protests to him being the heir to the throne if he really had dressed an ape in his deceased son's clothes, and we have not heard of such things.

 

The child should be big enough to fit an ape in his clothes too - so, it was probably not a stillborn, but somewhat older? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

The child should be big enough to fit an ape in his clothes too - so, it was probably not a stillborn, but somewhat older? 

Presumably.

[Wrl6199]

45 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Presumably.

It is what they say.

[chuck norris 42]

Are the Greatswords in the books just a bigger version of the longsword or are they like Medieval Greatswords
with a really big hand guards and an extra hand  guard further up the hilt.
For example

 

 

[Oakhearts head]

While the Greyjoy's of Pyke hold the Lordship of the Iron Islands, Harlaw is, at present, the more populous and wealthy of the two Islands. House Greyjoy has great lands when it comes to military defense, but on the whole Harlaw is superior when it comes to farming, fishing and trading. Ten Towers is the newest castle on the Iron Islands, being built not long after Aegon's Conquest.

With that said, ignoring stigma/xenaphobia towards Ironborn, how would Rodrik the Reader, Ten Towers and the island of Harlaw compare to other secondary houses in Westeros in terms of power, influence and overall wealth? By secondary houses, I'm specifically talking about the Florents, Boltons, Yronwoods, etc. Houses that are historically known to be considered "rivals" to their liege lords but have firmly been No. 2 in their respective regions for the past couple of hundred years or so. House Harlaw isn't impoverished by any means and actually seems to be thriving.

Basically, is House Harlaw comparable to some of the other notable secondary houses across Westeros?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

18 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Is it ever established why, exactly, Gared deserts the NW? Is it simply because he was so frightened by what he saw?

That's likely the reason, yes. He never returned to Castle Black, as Mormont and the other brothers have no idea what happened what happened to Will and Waymar, nor were they aware that Gared had deserted until Eddard sent his head to the Wall. And what he saw made quite an impression on him.. just look at his behaviour upon his execution.

[Yukle]

8 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

Basically, is House Harlaw comparable to some of the other notable secondary houses across Westeros?

This is tricky to say because the Iron Islands are somewhat poorer than other regions. Their wealth generally arose from their raiding and their iron mines - but their resistance to operate in mines and use thralls instead limits their outputs.

Harlaw would be rich by the standards of the rest of the archipelago and they certainly do seem to be thriving. However, I think their wealth wouldn't be quite as much as the Blackwoods / Brackens etc. For one thing, the Iron Islands aren't fertile, so they'd need to import / raid much of their food. This is an expensive lifestyle to start with. On the other hand, they'd probably be wealthier than most minor holdings, just not quite on the level of especially powerful ones, such as the Florents and Yronwoods.

[Sir Matthis Light]

Here hoping I don't get another warning lmao

Did Viserys "The Beggar King" go mad due to incest or did was he driven mad over the years because of his forced exile?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

Here hoping I don't get another warning lmao

Did Viserys "The Beggar King" go mad due to incest or did was he driven mad over the years because of his forced exile?

I think it was a combination of both his genetics and the circumstances he lived in. 

He already had a touch of madness when he was still living in the Red Keep

Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and... forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth... even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father’s son, in ways that Rhaegar never did.”
“His father’s son?” Dany frowned. “What does that mean?”
The old knight did not blink. “Your father is called ‘the Mad King’ in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?”
“Viserys did.” The Mad King. “The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs.” The Mad King. “It was a lie.”
“Why ask for truth,” Ser Barristan said softly, “if you close your ears to it?” He hesitated, then continued. “I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that Id joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not...”
“... my father’s daughter?” If she was not her father’s daughter, who was she?
“... mad,” he finished. “But I see no taint in you.” 

Perhaps that was partially due to Aerys's paranoia over his safety.

The birth of Prince Viserys only seemed to make Aerys II more fearful and obsessive, however. Though the new young princeling seemed healthy enough, the king was terrified lest he suffer the same fate as his brothers. Kingsguard knights were commanded to stand over him night and day to see that no one touched the boy without the king's leave. Even the queen herself was forbidden to be alone with the infant. When her milk dried up, Aerys insisted on having his own food taster suckle at the teats of the prince's wet nurse, to ascertain that the woman had not smeared poison on her nipples. As gifts for the young prince arrived from all the lords of the Seven Kingdoms, the king had them piled in the yard and burned, for fear that some of them might have been ensorcelled or cursed prince.

And perhaps this was simply a case of a child repeating what he saw. Though Rhaella tried to shield him as much as she could, but he was bound to have witnessed some of Aerys's madness. And we know how much Aerys's madness had increased by the end of his reign, due to Duskendale, just one year after Viserys's birth.

Perhaps it had also been a bit of his character, his nature, as well. However, his exile is likely to have made it much worse (again, just as Duskendale's Defiance did for Aerys).

Viserys had been stupid and vicious, she had come to realize, yet sometimes she missed him all the same. Not the cruel weak man he had become by the end, but the brother who had sometimes let her creep into his bed, the boy who told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms, and talked of how much better their lives would be once he claimed his crown.

At the age of seven, he had to flee his home, learned about the deathd of his father, brother, and his brother's young children. He was crowned king, but had to flee once more when he was only eight, when Dragonstone was about to be taken. Quite traumatic, especially for a child.

There's also this:

Dany waited for his words to be translated. “My crown is not for sale.” When Viserys sold their mother’s crown, the last joy had gone from him, leaving only rage.

Viserys was crowned by Rhaella on Dragonstone, according to a semi-canon source. In The Princess and the Queen, we learn that the crowns are kept in the Red Keep, which would mean that it is likely that Rhaella's crown was the only crown available on Dragonstone. If so, I think that it is likely that Viserys was crowned with her crown, until such a time as where he could gain access to one of the crowns of his ancestors. If this is indeed true, he did not simply sell his mother's crown, but he sold the only crown he had, the crown he had been crowned with. We don't know when Viserys was forced to sell his crown, but perhaps this was the final turning point for Viserys?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Does anyone know of a source stating that Valarr and Matarys died "mere hours before" Daeron II? I can't find it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Does anyone know of a source stating that Valarr and Matarys died "mere hours before" Daeron II? I can't find it.

I searched The Sworn Sword electronically four "hours" and could not find such a referrence. 

[Sir Matthis Light]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen Thanks..But damn. I always felt sorry for Viserys III and thought people never really gave to much consideration to how he grew up, but it seems he was just doomed to fail from the start no matter what.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, Sir Matthis Light said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen Thanks..But damn. I always felt sorry for Viserys III and thought people never really gave to much consideration to how he grew up, but it seems he was just doomed to fail from the start no matter what.

yep.

[Nittanian]

10 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Does anyone know of a source stating that Valarr and Matarys died "mere hours before" Daeron II? I can't find it.

I couldn't find one.

ACOK Jon I:

Quote

Mormont continued. "Aemon was at his books when the eldest of his uncles, the heir apparent, was slain in a tourney mishap. He left two sons, but they followed him to the grave not long after, during the Great Spring Sickness. King Daeron was also taken, so the crown passed to Daeron's second son, Aerys."

The Sworn Sword

Quote

Our good High Septon was taken, the gods' own voice on earth, with a third of the Most Devout and near all our silent sisters. His Grace King Daeron, sweet Matarys and bold Valarr, the Hand. 

The Mystery Knight

Quote

"No, the old Grey Lion, the one who died in the spring." That was how men spoke of those who had perished during the Great Spring Sickness. He died in the spring. Tens of thousands had died in the spring, among them a king and two young princes.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I searched The Sworn Sword electronically four "hours" and could not find such a referrence. 

 

20 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

I couldn't find one.

ACOK Jon I:

The Sworn Sword

The Mystery Knight

 

I've also searched the app, RPGs and SSMs, but nothing. The only thing I can think of is an interview or a Q&A, but thus far, google turned up no source either. I've therefore removed the statement from the wiki, because it isn't sourced.

 

Thank you both for helping me search for it!

[Oakhearts head]

On 11/14/2016 at 1:24 AM, Yukle said:

This is tricky to say because the Iron Islands are somewhat poorer than other regions. Their wealth generally arose from their raiding and their iron mines - but their resistance to operate in mines and use thralls instead limits their outputs.

Harlaw would be rich by the standards of the rest of the archipelago and they certainly do seem to be thriving. However, I think their wealth wouldn't be quite as much as the Blackwoods / Brackens etc. For one thing, the Iron Islands aren't fertile, so they'd need to import / raid much of their food. This is an expensive lifestyle to start with. On the other hand, they'd probably be wealthier than most minor holdings, just not quite on the level of especially powerful ones, such as the Florents and Yronwoods.

Maybe, but keep in mind Quellon Greyjoy's third wife was from House Piper, who probably are in a similar position to the Brackens and Blackwoods.

[Yukle]

37 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

Maybe, but keep in mind Quellon Greyjoy's third wife was from House Piper, who probably are in a similar position to the Brackens and Blackwoods.

That is an excellent point. Wonder how far she was down the birth order, though? The further it was the less desperate her parents have been for a "good match."

I like the way the series accurately reflects the horrid way women can be used as property to forge alliances. As in, I like the critique - obviously I hate the practice.