Small Questions v. 10105

[The Fattest Leech]

Can you guys help me find something, please?

A few months back there was either a thread, or part of a thread, that talked about and decoded the computer screenshot of George writing what is speculated to be an Asha chapter in TWOW. I am almost  positive this thread was in the respective Winds of Winter sub-section here.

I can't find it here and my online searches just bring up other chapters.

Any help is much appreciated.

[Isobel Harper]

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Can you guys help me find something, please?

A few months back there was either a thread, or part of a thread, that talked about and decoded the computer screenshot of George writing what is speculated to be an Asha chapter in TWOW. I am almost  positive this thread was in the respective Winds of Winter sub-section here.

I can't find it here and my online searches just bring up other chapters.

Any help is much appreciated.

Pretty sure I read the same thing here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/142525-the-ultimate-winds-of-winter-resource/

[The Fattest Leech]

14 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Pretty sure I read the same thing here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/142525-the-ultimate-winds-of-winter-resource/

Yes! Thank you. For some reason I was blind to that thread???? It's late here, yeah, that's it 

[Shuvuuia]

I don't really understand how prince of Summerhall works -for example, Baelor becomes king, does Summerhall go to his youngest son or does Maekar keep it? And if Maekar keeps it and then dies, does it go to Baelor's youngest son or Daeron or Egg? 

and when Daeron became the prince of Dragonstone, was Summerhall vacant or was he just living in Egg's castle most of the time?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

I don't really understand how prince of Summerhall works -for example, Baelor becomes king, does Summerhall go to his youngest son or does Maekar keep it? And if Maekar keeps it and then dies, does it go to Baelor's youngest son or Daeron or Egg? 

and when Daeron became the prince of Dragonstone, was Summerhall vacant or was he just living in Egg's castle most of the time?

Summerhall hasn't really been around long enough for such a pattern to be established.

Summerhall was build during the reign of Daeron II, in 188 AC. Maekar got the seat for his own, and was known as the "Prince of Summerhall".

When Aerys I named Maekar his heir (in 217 AC), Maekar became the Prince of Dragonstone. I would assume that this is when Daeron became the "Prince of Summerhall", as Maekar's heir. When Daeron became the Prince of Dragonstone, he preferred to be called "Prince of Summerhall", due to his dislike of Dragonstone (despite the fact that he was the Prince of Dragonstone). Who (Aerion or Aegon) was given Summerhall when Daeron became Prince of Dragonstone is unknown.

When Aegon V ascended the throne, only he, his sons, and his nephew Maegor and niece Vaella remained. It does not seem likely that Maegor and Vaella were granted Summerhall, so presumably the seat was given to either Jaehaerys or Daeron, even though none seemed to have lived there, as Daeron was a squire at Highgarden whereas Jaehaerys seems to have been living at court up until the moment he became Prince of Dragonstone, in 239 AC.

We do know that "many sons" of House Targaryen held Sumerhall at one point, so it does seem likely that either Aerion or Aegon became Prince of Summerhal after Daeron, and one of Aegon's sons after he became king.

In the following year, Daeron raised a great seat in the Dornish Marches, near to where the boundaries of the Reach, the stormlands, and Dorne met. Calling it Summerhall to mark the peace he had created, it was more palace than castle and lightly fortified at best; in the years to come, many sons of House Targaryen would hold the seat as Prince of Summerhall.

[Shuvuuia]

12 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Summerhall hasn't really been around long enough for such a pattern to be established.

Summerhall was build during the reign of Daeron II, in 188 AC. Maekar got the seat for his own, and was known as the "Prince of Summerhall".

 

Sorry, but i still don't get it. Did Daeron II intend for Maekar's family to hold it "forever" (wouldn't it basically create a cadet branch of the family?) or for it to be passed to a youngest son of a current king or to whoever the king names? it didn't pass to rhaegel's son, did it?

i realize that we cannot know for sure, but is there anything in the lore or real world politics about a situation like this?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

23 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

Sorry, but i still don't get it. Did Daeron II intend for Maekar's family to hold it "forever" (wouldn't it basically create a cadet branch of the family?) or for it to be passed to a youngest son of a current king or to whoever the king names? it didn't pass to rhaegel's son, did it?

i realize that we cannot know for sure, but is there anything in the lore or real world politics about a situation like this?

No idea. I think that it is likely that Daeron thought that, out of his younger three sons, Maekar was best suited to rule over his own seat. Whether Maekar's line was supposed to keep the seat or not, cannot be said for sure.

Maekar is already the Prince of Summerhall during the reign of Daeron II, and remains Prince of Summerhall in at least the early part of Aerys I's reign, and he remained there "for years to come", implying imo that he remained Prince of Summerhall until Aerys named him heir.

[Lommy's Shade]

10 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

i realize that we cannot know for sure, but is there anything in the lore or real world politics about a situation like this?

In the real world, the British heir apparent is named the Prince of Wales. Also, the next-oldest brother of the prince is traditionally given the title of Duke of York.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

15 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Summerhall was build during the reign of Daeron II, in 188 AC. Maekar got the seat for his own, and was known as the "Prince of Summerhall".

When do you think Daeron II gave it to Maekar?

• c.192AC (my guess is that Maekar was born in c.176AC) when he turned 16? Though that doesn't mesh well with Daeron only passing it to Maekar after "his youth" & "as he grew older".
• Directly after the 1st BfR, particularly for his part? As an aside, I'm curious as to the role Summerhall may played in the war, especially with Baelor - when/how long was he there?
• Say after Dyanna's death?

16 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

When Daeron became the Prince of Dragonstone, he preferred to be called "Prince of Summerhall", due to his dislike of Dragonstone (despite the fact that he was the Prince of Dragonstone). Who (Aerion or Aegon) was given Summerhall when Daeron became Prince of Dragonstone is unknown.

I was going to say I always thought that Prince Daeron resided at Summerhall (& so Aemon was his maester there) instead of Dragonstone, hence the "Prince of Summerhall" title (Aerion wouldn't be pleased that Daeron "took" Summerhall off him, especially as he already had Dragonstone as Maekar's heir, but that much more so if he didn't even live there! And idk why Daeron would prefer the Summerhall title because he didn't like Dragonstone, but only lived at the latter out of two?!). But the AWoIaF app (after checking the wiki & double-checking it on my phone's version in surprise) says Aemon was the maester at Dragonstone instead. I still think Daeron lived at Summerhall, so that would make presumably Aerion or Egg as say Dragonstone's castellan (effectively) the one who Aemon served ...

16 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

When Aegon V ascended the throne, only he, his sons, and his nephew Maegor and niece Vaella remained. It does not seem likely that Maegor and Vaella were granted Summerhall, so presumably the seat was given to either Jaehaerys or Daeron, even though none seemed to have lived there, as Daeron was a squire at Highgarden whereas Jaehaerys seems to have been living at court up until the moment he became Prince of Dragonstone, in 239 AC.

I'd lean towards Jaehaerys as the next eldest (by 3 years too). Shaera would be at Highgarden being Luthor's wife & as Daeron would be Olenna Redwyne's husband, perhaps with his elder sister as part of the Tyrell court (particularly having been fostered there & rather likely to have grown up with Luthor). Jaehaerys would maintain a royal presence in the Stormlands (near Dorne, & the Reach too) with his wife, Celia Tully, to extend the Crown's influence (not necessarily militaristic level, but Egg obviously was going for bit of a realm-binding policy) that bit more. Rather unlikely, but it may even be that Daella &/or Rhae held Summerhall during the earlier years of Egg's reign.

16 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We do know that "many sons" of House Targaryen held Sumerhall at one point, so it does seem likely that either Aerion or Aegon became Prince of Summerhal after Daeron, and one of Aegon's sons after he became king.

I'd lean towards Egg as Aerion of course would be Prince of Dragonstone (assuming of course he outlived Daeron, which is highly likely if just by the timeline). After Jaehaerys became Prince of Dragonstone, that's an interesting one ...

Duncan of course caused just a bit of a problem with Lyonel Baratheon so may not have been exactly especially welcome in the Stormlands for a while, but he did "create" Barristan the Bold at Blackhaven (very close to Summerhall, & perhaps even once held the lands & gave them to the Targs as Jena's dowry) in 247AC. And neither would it do well for Duncan to always skulk away from Storm's End for many years - perhaps it would be better for him, a talented tourney knight, to reside at Summerhall & become something of a "prince of the people". Still, Jenny was (eventually at least) accepted at court, seemingly well liked, & brought the GoHH there (the theory the dwarf was her mother is interesting).

I wonder if Daeron was a tourney knight too, there certainly is a fair chance as he seems to have had the ability for it (squiring at Highgarden likely didn't hurt either). The Rat, the Hawk, & the Pig are most likely to have to have been in the Red Mountains/Dornish Marches imo & Daeron lead the army against them ... If I had to guess I'd say it was given to Daeron after Jaehaerys became Prince of Dragonstone (with Duncan doing the odd making appearances Stormlands tour from there), & Duncan (the Tragedy was at Summerhall after all, & Duncan & Jenny died there - were Jaehaerys & Shaera there too, or behind in KL/Dragonstone?) inherited it after Daeron's death (Rhaelle married to Ormund years before in 245AC so things were better there).

One thing I have always found really weird somewhat to do with Summerhall, is (seemingly) why weren't Baelor Breakspear (Dondarrion wife & Protector of the Realm!) &/or Maekar proto-Stannis (with Robert's frontline preference on top!) part of/leading the campaign against the Vulture King in 206AC?! As I said before, Summerhall is very close & Caron & Dondarrion would've had to take some time to muster 4k foot & 800 knights (including hedge knights who may not have been in the immediate area when they heard the call). It's been ~18 years since THK when GRRM & his editors could've should've retconned the info to include Baelor or Maekar.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

When do you think Daeron II gave it to Maekar?

• c.192AC (my guess is that Maekar was born in c.176AC) when he turned 16? Though that doesn't mesh well with Daeron only passing it to Maekar after "his youth" & "as he grew older".
• Directly after the 1st BfR, particularly for his part? As an aside, I'm curious as to the role Summerhall may played in the war, especially with Baelor - when/how long was he there?
• Say after Dyanna's death?

There are a few possibilities. When he turned 16. When he got married. Following the Blackfyre Rebellion.. I highly doubt that Dyanna's death would have played a role.

I'd personally favor either when he got married (though we do not know how old he was), though that is likely to have fallen shortly after or around the time he turned 16 any way. Now that he was about to have a family of his own, Daeron II might have seen it as natural that Maekar too received a seat of his own.

I think it's either that or as a reward for the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Battles during the war are known to have occurred in the Vale, the westerlands, the riverlands and the Reach. Summerhall is located at the borders of Dorne, the stormlands, and the Reach, so it could be that fighting did not occur closeby the castle. 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I was going to say I always thought that Prince Daeron resided at Summerhall (& so Aemon was his maester there) instead of Dragonstone, hence the "Prince of Summerhall" title (Aerion wouldn't be pleased that Daeron "took" Summerhall off him, especially as he already had Dragonstone as Maekar's heir, but that much more so if he didn't even live there! And idk why Daeron would prefer the Summerhall title because he didn't like Dragonstone, but only lived at the latter out of two?!). But the AWoIaF app (after checking the wiki & double-checking it on my phone's version in surprise) says Aemon was the maester at Dragonstone instead. I still think Daeron lived at Summerhall, so that would make presumably Aerion or Egg as say Dragonstone's castellan (effectively) the one who Aemon served ...

Aemon served Daeron at Dragonstone. That means that Daeron will have lived there as well. He simply preferred the castle where he grew up, though. As heir to the throne, I suppose he divided his time between KL and Dragonstone, and perhaps his dislike for Dragonstone made his presence at KL a bit more frequent than his time at Dragonstone.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I'd lean towards Jaehaerys as the next eldest (by 3 years too). Shaera would be at Highgarden being Luthor's wife & as Daeron would be Olenna Redwyne's husband, perhaps with his elder sister as part of the Tyrell court (particularly having been fostered there & rather likely to have grown up with Luthor). Jaehaerys would maintain a royal presence in the Stormlands (near Dorne, & the Reach too) with his wife, Celia Tully, to extend the Crown's influence (not necessarily militaristic level, but Egg obviously was going for bit of a realm-binding policy) that bit more. Rather unlikely, but it may even be that Daella &/or Rhae held Summerhall during the earlier years of Egg's reign.

I'd lean towards Daeron, actually. Jaehaerys became the Prince of Dragonstone at the age of 14, and seems to have still been living at court. Whether Aegon had planned to give Jaehaerys Summerhall eventually, is possible, but Jaehaerys was given Dragonstone as heir apparent, though it seems he still lived at court.

(Possibly representative, is Rhaenyra Targaryen. While she had been the Princess of Dragonstone for the biggest part of her life, she only took possession of the seat once she turned 16.)

That would leave Daeron, once he was old enough. 

I personally do not think that Daella or Rhae were likely. They would have married lords with seats of their own. In addition, granting them the seats is like handing off Summerhall, a Targaryen seat, to another family (even if it is only for a generation). And lastly, it doesn't seem as if seats were given to others while the previous owner was still alive (unless they were given a better seat of their own, of course). 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I'd lean towards Egg as Aerion of course would be Prince of Dragonstone (assuming of course he outlived Daeron, which is highly likely if just by the timeline). After Jaehaerys became Prince of Dragonstone, that's an interesting one ...

Perhaps they both held it, at one point. It would depend on when Daeron died and Aerion became the Prince of Dragonstone. Maekar might have decided to grant Aegon Summerhall (Aegon was his favorite son, after all).

 

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Duncan of course caused just a bit of a problem with Lyonel Baratheon so may not have been exactly especially welcome in the Stormlands for a while, but he did "create" Barristan the Bold at Blackhaven (very close to Summerhall, & perhaps even once held the lands & gave them to the Targs as Jena's dowry) in 247AC. And neither would it do well for Duncan to always skulk away from Storm's End for many years - perhaps it would be better for him, a talented tourney knight, to reside at Summerhall & become something of a "prince of the people". Still, Jenny was (eventually at least) accepted at court, seemingly well liked, & brought the GoHH there (the theory the dwarf was her mother is interesting).

Duncan had been the Prince of Dragonstone when he offended the Baratheons. So he would definitly not have been the Prince of Summerhall before his marriage to Jenny.

But after... It might have been seen as a reward for Duncan, in a way (even though he had given up the throne), which would have been dangerous for Aegon to do. Also

What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys.

If Summerhall had been given to Duncan after he gave up his right to the throne, would it not have been described as "Duncan's castle", or something? The feeling I get from this line, is that Summerhall was not being held by anyone at the time.

So either Daeron had received Summerhall, and Aegon had not given it to anyone else after his death, or Aegon had not given Summerhall to any of his sons during his reign (for whatever reason), I think.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I wonder if Daeron was a tourney knight too, there certainly is a fair chance as he seems to have had the ability for it (squiring at Highgarden likely didn't hurt either). The Rat, the Hawk, & the Pig are most likely to have to have been in the Red Mountains/Dornish Marches imo & Daeron lead the army against them ... If I had to guess I'd say it was given to Daeron after Jaehaerys became Prince of Dragonstone (with Duncan doing the odd making appearances Stormlands tour from there), & Duncan (the Tragedy was at Summerhall after all, & Duncan & Jenny died there - were Jaehaerys & Shaera there too, or behind in KL/Dragonstone?) inherited it after Daeron's death (Rhaelle married to Ormund years before in 245AC so things were better there).

I think chances are good for that.. What makes you think that the Rat, Hawk and Pig are most likely to have been in the Red Mountains/Dornish Marches?

Considering it was their grandchild who was to be born at Summerhall, I'd say that Jaehaerys and Shaera were there during the Tragedy, too. 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

One thing I have always found really weird somewhat to do with Summerhall, is (seemingly) why weren't Baelor Breakspear (Dondarrion wife & Protector of the Realm!) &/or Maekar proto-Stannis (with Robert's frontline preference on top!) part of/leading the campaign against the Vulture King in 206AC?! As I said before, Summerhall is very close & Caron & Dondarrion would've had to take some time to muster 4k foot & 800 knights (including hedge knights who may not have been in the immediate area when they heard the call). It's been ~18 years since THK when GRRM & his editors could've should've retconned the info to include Baelor or Maekar.

I'd think because both House Dondarrion and House Caron were located much closer to the location of the Vulture King, and the Vulture King himself was not a threat of a size that required intervention of the royal house.

[Shuvuuia]

22 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

No idea. I think that it is likely that Daeron thought that, out of his younger three sons, Maekar was best suited to rule over his own seat. Whether Maekar's line was supposed to keep the seat or not, cannot be said for sure.

Maekar is already the Prince of Summerhall during the reign of Daeron II, and remains Prince of Summerhall in at least the early part of Aerys I's reign, and he remained there "for years to come", implying imo that he remained Prince of Summerhall until Aerys named him heir.

ok, Thanks! (btw, i missed Aerys specifically naming Maekar heir, i always thought there was just no other options after Rhaegel's and Aelor's deaths)

12 hours ago, Lommy's Shade said:

In the real world, the British heir apparent is named the Prince of Wales. Also, the next-oldest brother of the prince is traditionally given the title of Duke of York.

Thanks!

6 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

One thing I have always found really weird somewhat to do with Summerhall, is (seemingly) why weren't Baelor Breakspear (Dondarrion wife & Protector of the Realm!) &/or Maekar proto-Stannis (with Robert's frontline preference on top!) part of/leading the campaign against the Vulture King in 206AC?! As I said before, Summerhall is very close & Caron & Dondarrion would've had to take some time to muster 4k foot & 800 knights (including hedge knights who may not have been in the immediate area when they heard the call). It's been ~18 years since THK when GRRM & his editors could've should've retconned the info to include Baelor or Maekar.

Wouldn't it then contradict THK (in Dunk never meeting them before) too much to make it worth a retcon?

8 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Battles during the war are known to have occurred in the Vale, the westerlands, the riverlands and the Reach. Summerhall is located at the borders of Dorne, the stormlands, and the Reach, so it could be that fighting did not occur closeby the castle. 

But Baelor could've march there with his dornish+stormland's army? i guess there should've been some fighting when he marched and with some dornish and stormland families being pro-Blackfyre?

[theblackdragonI]

Did the Blackfish fight in Robert's Rebellion?

[Consigliere]

19 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Did the Blackfish fight in Robert's Rebellion?

Don't recall if there is any mention in the books but according to the app he did.

From his app entry:

During Robert's Rebellion, Brynden chooses to serve Lord Arryn following Arryn's marriage to Brynden's niece, Lysa. Lord Hoster sees this as a personal rejection and refuses to speak Brynden's name after that. Brynden further increases his fame during this time, taking part in a number of battles. When King Aerys is killed and Robert ascends to the Iron Throne, Brynden is named the Knight of the Bloody Gate by Lord Arryn.

[theblackdragonI]

1 minute ago, Consigliere said:

Don't recall if there is any mention in the books but according to the app he did.

From his app entry:

During Robert's Rebellion, Brynden chooses to serve Lord Arryn following Arryn's marriage to Brynden's niece, Lysa. Lord Hoster sees this as a personal rejection and refuses to speak Brynden's name after that. Brynden further increases his fame during this time, taking part in a number of battles. When King Aerys is killed and Robert ascends to the Iron Throne, Brynden is named the Knight of the Bloody Gate by Lord Arryn.

Thanks! 

[Oakhearts head]

After the Greyjoy Rebellion, Baelor Blacktyde was sent away to be fostered in Oldtown. Does this mean Baelor was fostered with the main branch of House Hightower (just as Theon was a ward/hostage for the main family in the North), or is it more likely that he was sent to a lesser highborn family somewhere else in the city? 

[LordImp]

Now that Jaime is most likelydende a captive of LSH , what happends with the Lannister army ? Will they stay in the Riverlands , head back to KL or travel to CR? Who leads them , Strongboar ? Illyn Payne? 

 

[Ckram]

10 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

After the Greyjoy Rebellion, Baelor Blacktyde was sent away to be fostered in Oldtown. Does this mean Baelor was fostered with the main branch of House Hightower (just as Theon was a ward/hostage for the main family in the North), or is it more likely that he was sent to a lesser highborn family somewhere else in the city? 

Probably with the main branch of House Hightower.

Theon was the Iron Islands overlord's heir, and became a hostage to the North's overlord as a way to avoid Ironborn raids there. Then I think that a lesser lord like Baelor Blacktyde was suited to the Hightowers, who also happen to be lesser lords (despite their power and wealth) and are an usual target of the ironborn.

But I suppose that there's something else: Hightowers are known for avoiding wars or challenging new rulers as long as Oldtown is kept intact. Another lesser Reach Lord could try to use this hostage as a way of social ascension. However, I'm just guessing here.

By the way, as strange as it might be, I also considered about the possibility of "Oldtown" being a reference to the Order of the Maesters or the Faith, but both seemed instantly wrong. If on the one hand both of them does not seem to be able to keep anyone temporarily as a ward or hostage, on the other hand one would not speak of "Oldtown" but of "the Citadel" or "the Faith."

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

23 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I highly doubt that Dyanna's death would have played a role.

I'd personally favor either when he got married (though we do not know how old he was), though that is likely to have fallen shortly after or around the time he turned 16 any way. Now that he was about to have a family of his own, Daeron II might have seen it as natural that Maekar too received a seat of his own. I think it's either that or as a reward for the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Battles during the war are known to have occurred in the Vale, the westerlands, the riverlands and the Reach. Summerhall is located at the borders of Dorne, the stormlands, and the Reach, so it could be that fighting did not occur closeby the castle.

Same, I just couldn't think of anything else (besides Daeron just giving it to Maekar one day) when writing that may have been a catalyst, hence that being the placeholder. I suppose the 206AC-Vulture King thing could've been, but simply it seems like Prince Maekar had been there longer than that.

Though not especially easy on Princess Mariah, I'm thinking now Maekar was more likely born in 174 or 175, if just to better fit Daeron being born around 190 for Aerion to come around 192 (comes off as 17-ish in THK, imo, 15-16 seems too young). Anyway, yeah the 16/marriage timing is possible, but like I said just feels too soon after the construction of Summerhall. I think post-1st BfR is more likely, & it makes sense for "Anvil" Maekar (besides "Hammer" Baelor, but he of course had Dragonstone & probably spent most of his time in KL anyway as Hand) to be the (appointed) Targaryen presence at Summerhal then. Perhaps interestingly, is that the app states that Aemon & Egg were born in KL & not Summerhall, but I think that's just more like Daeron/Maekar having Dyanna travel to the capital to give birth at the Red Keep. I wonder if there's anything of note that could perhaps be speculated by the ~6 years between Aerion & Aemon, but then Dyanna has 3 kids in 3 years (& likely 4 in 4-5) ...

Well, there's a fair chance that there was some form of conflict in Dorne too with the Yronwoods (& so presumably Wyls - they're mental, but historically loyal to the Bloodroyal) closely the Boneway to try & keep the Martell-loyal forces from joining up with the loyalist-Stormlanders. They may have been attacked at both ends & eventually broke, allowing Baelor's host to get to the Redgrass Field in time. Even if the Fowlers & Manwoodys stayed loyal to Maron(?) to allow the Dornish forces the Prince's Pass, they'd still have to go past Nightsong & the Carons are the most likely of the Marcher lords (& perhaps even up there with those from the Reach too like Peake-confirmed; & perhaps also Tarlys, Vyrwels, &/or Mullendores) to have fought for Daemon (at least in some capacity). That wouldn't be the easiest passage then, & the Yronwoods & Wyls may have been able to harass their rear once their rival-Dornish passed Blackhaven. But anyway, I was just wondering if Summerhall was perhaps a mustering point (like how it was intended to become early during Robert's Rebellion) for Baelor considering its rather central location between Storm's End, the Marches, & Dorne.

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Aemon served Daeron at Dragonstone. That means that Daeron will have lived there as well. He simply preferred the castle where he grew up, though. As heir to the throne, I suppose he divided his time between KL and Dragonstone, and perhaps his dislike for Dragonstone made his presence at KL a bit more frequent than his time at Dragonstone.

So you think it's something slightly similar to how Daemon Targaryen was "the Prince of the City", in that Daeron preferred to be called Prince of Summerhall for the royal seat he liked the most, but wasn't actually his per se? (Daemon obviously didn't have Dragonstone because of Viserys, however much time he may have spent there, & because he was so visible in KL even before Viserys ascended - becomes known as PotC/Lord Flea Bottom). Or it was along with Dragonstone, & Aerion (because of Maekar) had to put up with it? Anyway, yeah I'd have to think that Daeron spent more time in KL then on Dragonstone, & also would've liked to get away to Summerhall whenever he could (whoever was the actual Prince there, or not).

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I'd lean towards Daeron, actually. Jaehaerys became the Prince of Dragonstone at the age of 14, and seems to have still been living at court. Whether Aegon had planned to give Jaehaerys Summerhall eventually, is possible, but Jaehaerys was given Dragonstone as heir apparent, though it seems he still lived at court.

Do you mean Daeron being named Prince of Summerhall before or after Jaehaerys became Prince of Dragonstone? Certainly yes, after. Jaehaerys is PoD, & Summerhall would be a good, at least occasional, in-between for Daeron from court at Highgarden &/or KL. Though of course, Duncan could perhaps be PoS in this scenario instead too. If before, well Egg may have been following the "precedent" youngest son Maekar inheriting it (& then perhaps himself eventually) & gave it to Daeron instead; particularly if he was thinking Duncan would have/be on Dragonstone, Jaehaerys in KL, & Daeron would have/be at Summerhall. Jaehaerys makes more sense to me as the elder, though I just took into consideration his health (& whether related or not, perhaps less desire to travel/be away from KL than his brothers - or simply, Egg & Betha wanting him closer) & yeah Daeron would be more like thinking long-term to be given Summerhall, for it to actually be used (in terms of an actual royal staying there) at least a bit more. I suppose if Daeron had the PoS title, whether beforehand or for it specifically, it may have been a small infuence on his betrothal to Olenna. Obviously they'd dive at any royal marriage (particularly Daeron seeming early on as a top candidate) of the ruling line at least, but he was the third son & so perhaps the prospect of potential future influence in the areas around Summerhall (Stormlands & Dorne, particularly those Houses of both in & around the Red Mountains Redwyne ships/representatives wouldn't get too that much) played a part. It makes more sense from that prospect than the Tullys whose match to Jaehaerys with Celia is more for a reaffirmation of their own royal patronage to strengthen their hold over the Riverlands (particularly after the 1st & 2nd BfR where the Tullys didn't have a strong hold on their vassals, & fair chance the 3rd too), which would be better served with Jaehaerys at KL (perhaps even spending some time in the Riverlands, health dependent) then distant Summerhall ... Haha, yeah I'm sold.

You know, I've wondered for a while if perhaps Shaera was sent to say Highgarden to her future in-laws (& her other, non-incest, brother) when her parents became aware of "whatever the hell signs she & Jaehaerys showed of whatever you want to call it (involving incest) at that age", but say Daeron helped out somehow for her to be able to escape her guards & be able to elope with Jaehaerys ...

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I personally do not think that Daella or Rhae were likely. They would have married lords with seats of their own. In addition, granting them the seats is like handing off Summerhall, a Targaryen seat, to another family (even if it is only for a generation). And lastly, it doesn't seem as if seats were given to others while the previous owner was still alive (unless they were given a better seat of their own, of course). 

Yeah, good points. I suppose one or both perhaps if the husband/s died when the child/ren were only young, but that can pretty much dismissed as they'd stay at the seat anyway &/or Egg would want them in KL for a time with more of the family.

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Perhaps they both held it, at one point. It would depend on when Daeron died and Aerion became the Prince of Dragonstone. Maekar might have decided to grant Aegon Summerhall (Aegon was his favorite son, after all).

So you think Aerion was actually the Prince of Summerhall whilst Daeron was Prince of Dragonstone (despite his desire to be called PoS), or say just the castellan/more frequent presence there? But yes, whatever the case, certainly I think its likely that Egg was named PoS by Maekar once Aerion became PoD (as he likely outlived Daeron).

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Duncan had been the Prince of Dragonstone when he offended the Baratheons. So he would definitly not have been the Prince of Summerhall before his marriage to Jenny. But after... It might have been seen as a reward for Duncan, in a way (even though he had given up the throne), which would have been dangerous for Aegon to do. Also

What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys.

If Summerhall had been given to Duncan after he gave up his right to the throne, would it not have been described as "Duncan's castle", or something? The feeling I get from this line, is that Summerhall was not being held by anyone at the time. So either Daeron had received Summerhall, and Aegon had not given it to anyone else after his death, or Aegon had not given Summerhall to any of his sons during his reign (for whatever reason), I think.

Yeah I had said who after Jaehaerys to finish the previous paragraph in that reply. But yes, I think for a few years at least until Rhaelle was married to Ormond, it wouldn't have been the wisest move for Egg to give Duncan Summerhall. Huh, good pick up ...Well, Egg was king so (arguably) he controls all the royal seats to a degree (if not, even those of his lords & knights in the Crownlands, if not the wider realm) ... Or simply like his older brother Daeron, it's just referring to the royal seat he liked the most ... But yes, it may be after his son Daeron died (leaning towards him as PoS now), Egg didn't officially name Duncan as PoS (even though he may have been all but in name) because of his unique situation, & then perhaps intended for it to eventually go to some younger son of Aerys*. Or as you, Egg may have effectively retained it for the Crown for most of his reign (following the broken betrothals, of course he may not have given it to one of them yet), perhaps because of his sons' actions. We know Egg wasn't a ruthless type (each one of his kids' broken betrothals, even Jaehaerys & Shaera's - thought that would've been by far the hardest & harshest - could've been, near enough, fixed) so he may have even tried to use the title of PoS for Jaehaerys in addition to already being PoD), though far more likely, for Daeron. On that note, we know that obviously the Tyrells & Tullys weren't pleased with what happened, but I wonder how the Redwynes felt when Jaehaerys was still kept as PoD after the whole Shaera-incest debacle ... Even if part of Egg intended to force Duncan to abdicate unless he gave up Jenny, there was obviously outside pressure from within even his own court & Small Council for it; so perhaps the Redwynes were pissed when the same wasn't done to Jaehaerys (Princess Shaera was far "above" Jenny, but there was the precedent with Duncan) so Olenna would (as they'd expect anyway) be the future Queen-consort & eventually a half-Redwyne king on the IT.

*It seems like Jaehaerys may not have even betrothed Aerys & Rhaella, & basically just married them once the prophecy (& argument with Egg) come from the GoHH. Both were still certainly young enough to still not be betrothed & it sounds like Egg may have been using them as a last ditch effort for realm-binding marriages until he "washed his hands of it" when Jaehaerys wouldn't relent. I think the Aerys-Rhaella match was one of the things that led Egg to Summerhall now that he didn't have the hands of his only (legitimate, male-line) grandchildren to barter with.

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

What makes you think that the Rat, Hawk and Pig are most likely to have been in the Red Mountains/Dornish Marches?

Historical precedents for outlaw hideouts & domains - Vulture Kings, various other Dornish (raiders most like). I think they were associated with the Blackfyres somehow & so they may not have been native to Dorne, more likely coming from the Reach or Stormlands, even if they were more likely to rebel from more outlaw-friendly (terrain, if not local support too) Dornish territory. Say the Rainwood (though that seems to be rather well populated, at least with Houses & their castles, for a mostly forested area - Cape Wrath, that is) or the Kingswood (I think the Brotherhood there formed from among those that were on the losing side of the Wot9pK, but came back to Westeros to make what meagre lives they could in banditry now that House Blackfyre was seemingly gone from the Golden Company) may be other possibilities; but it seems like the Rat, the Hawk & the Pig gathered some sort of army, however large or small, & that would be harder to sustain there. Nothing else is really jumping out as a possibility to me except maybe they came from the Stepstones to attack Tarth or Estermont or something. Do you have any other possibilities of where?

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Considering it was their grandchild who was to be born at Summerhall, I'd say that Jaehaerys and Shaera were there during the Tragedy, too. 

Yeah most likely. If Dunk didn't help get them out too though I wonder who did (if they did not themselves, but especially with the extreme nature of the event & Jaehaerys' health, I presume they were at least assisted in escaping) ... Probably some other Kingsguard/s who likely also died there ... Well, we'll have to wait for D&E/F&B for that one anyway.

On 11/20/2016 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I'd think because both House Dondarrion and House Caron were located much closer to the location of the Vulture King, and the Vulture King himself was not a threat of a size that required intervention of the royal house.

Perhaps, but that many men & knights, seemingly just for the two lords (even if their lands weren't threatened directly, I think it would be a bit strange that Houses Selmy & Swann wouldn't send something to help out/glory) would take a while to marshal (& surely time enough for word to reach next-door Summerhall, if the rebellion & whatever threat of the Vulture King hadn't already, for a royal response - unless of course no royal was home - I'm going with this in-universe); though ...

On 11/20/2016 at 4:24 AM, Shuvuuia said:

Wouldn't it then contradict THK (in Dunk never meeting them before) too much to make it worth a retcon?

Ah yeah, great point! I suppose no royal was at or near Summerhall at the time either to explain in-universe on top of that meta.

On 11/20/2016 at 4:24 AM, Shuvuuia said:

But Baelor could've march there with his dornish+stormland's army? i guess there should've been some fighting when he marched and with some dornish and stormland families being pro-Blackfyre?

The Yronwoods' (& Wyls) job for Daemon (presumably in exchange for the Lord Paramountcy of Dorne should the Blackfyres win) was likely to close the Boneway to the Martell loyalists (who probably wouldn't have had enough ships themselves, nor the money or time to hire some, to ferry them to somewhere on the Stormlands coast) & stop them joining up with the loyalist-Stormlanders. The Prince's Pass may have been closed/defended somewhere too as the Carons (unless intermarried with the Baratheons, Dondarrions, Manwoodys &/or Fowlers at that time) likely supported Daemon, & although the Fowlers & Manwoodys probably stayed loyal to the Martells, we aren't sure. It may be that the Baelor's Stormlanders & Dornish had to attack the Boneway simultaneously to break the Yronwoods & force a passage to get to the Redgrass Field in time.

23 hours ago, Consigliere said:

From his app entry: ...  Brynden is named the Knight of the Bloody Gate by Lord Arryn.

Jon's previous one may have been killed at say the Trident or the Battle of the Bells, or perhaps it had been Elbert Arryn (if he wasn't with Brandon at the time when news of the Lyannapping came through, being at the Bloody Gate means he may have been able to meet with Brandon on the way to KL).

12 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

After the Greyjoy Rebellion, Baelor Blacktyde was sent away to be fostered in Oldtown.

He was a hostage to begin (whether he actually fought to & was captured then or presumably just when whoever of Robert's commanders took the island & castle of Blacktyde), who seems to have been assimilated into something akin to being fostered.

@LordImp Strongboar intended to go back to Darry to open Ami's gatehouse hunt the Hound after the siege of Riverrun & I don't think he was at Raventree so at Darry. No way Ilyn Payne is given the command of Jaime's host, he's an executioner, not a commander (though he once was to a degree). Even if just because he has no tongue so he can't give any commands! They'll stay in the Riverlands for now, perhaps staying at Raventree Hall or Stone Hedge in the immediate aftermath of Jaime's disappearance searching for him, as we know from Cersei's PoV that news got to KL that he had vanished with Brienne. What happens after is less clear depending on what happens to Jaime with LSH, a possible BwB attack on the hostage convoy going to Casterly Rock, &/or perhaps the RW 2.0 at Riverrun ...

[Oakhearts head]

8 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

He was a hostage to begin (whether he actually fought to & was captured then or presumably just when whoever of Robert's commanders took the island & castle of Blacktyde), who seems to have been assimilated into something akin to being fostered.

Pretty sure Baelor was a boy during the Greyjoy Rebellion. His father was killed at Fair Isle and he seemed to be of an age with Theon.

2 hours ago, Ckram said:

Probably with the main branch of House Hightower.

Theon was the Iron Islands overlord's heir, and became a hostage to the North's overlord as a way to avoid Ironborn raids there. Then I think that a lesser lord like Baelor Blacktyde was suited to the Hightowers, who also happen to be lesser lords (despite their power and wealth) and are an usual target of the ironborn.

But I suppose that there's something else: Hightowers are known for avoiding wars or challenging new rulers as long as Oldtown is kept intact. Another lesser Reach Lord could try to use this hostage as a way of social ascension. However, I'm just guessing here.

By the way, as strange as it might be, I also considered about the possibility of "Oldtown" being a reference to the Order of the Maesters or the Faith, but both seemed instantly wrong. If on the one hand both of them does not seem to be able to keep anyone temporarily as a ward or hostage, on the other hand one would not speak of "Oldtown" but of "the Citadel" or "the Faith."

Good explanation. Thank you for the answer. 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

1 minute ago, Oakhearts head said:

Pretty sure Baelor was a boy during the Greyjoy Rebellion. His father was killed at Fair Isle and he seemed to be of an age with Theon.

Likely, but someone being fostered is different to being a hostage - Ned & Robert were fostered by Jon Arryn, whilst Theon was Ned's hostage & Baelor was the Hightowers' (both for the Crown). I get the impression that the term "ward" is applicable to both - whatever the reason, their under the "care" (whatever that might entail) of whoever is holding them.