Small Questions v. 10105

[Yukle]

8 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Do other people know what happened at the Tower of Joy? I'm not talking about R+L=J. I'm wondering if people know what happened to the Kingsguard. Is it commonly known that Ned Stark and his companions went to Dorne and killed the Sword of the Morning, White Bull and Whent?

Yes it is. And there are further rumours related to this fact, mostly about Ned's return to Starfall to give back the sword Dawn, the possibility that he had an affair while there (and Ashara Dayne, who killed herself, was Jon's mum), and so on.

It was 7-on-3, but given the immense skill of the Kingsguard at that time, Ned is seemingly not held in poor esteem for winning with superior numbers. All three knights his men defeated were very famous, so their deaths are well known. There's also the fact that the Tower of Joy was torn down so the stones could be used to make cairns for the slain, so it's not as though people wouldn't have visited the site.

[theblackdragonI]

12 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Yes it is. And there are further rumours related to this fact, mostly about Ned's return to Starfall to give back the sword Dawn, the possibility that he had an affair while there (and Ashara Dayne, who killed herself, was Jon's mum), and so on.

It was 7-on-3, but given the immense skill of the Kingsguard at that time, Ned is seemingly not held in poor esteem for winning with superior numbers. All three knights his men defeated were very famous, so their deaths are well known. There's also the fact that the Tower of Joy was torn down so the stones could be used to make cairns for the slain, so it's not as though people wouldn't have visited the site.

awesome!

You'd think people would have more respect for Ned as a fighter though. Like whenever people mention Arthur Dayne it should be followed by he was killed by Ned Stark. Or maybe I'm being too much of a fanboy..

 

[Rob Storm]

Has it been theorized that Ned Stark went to Starfall to pick up a second nephew(or niece) ? Was he trying to gather the heirs of his sister and brother but Ashara had a still-born of bran dons and then Ned delivered Dawn and then was just his honorable self trying to console another grieving family, the Daynes? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

22 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Do other people know what happened at the Tower of Joy? I'm not talking about R+L=J. I'm wondering if people know what happened to the Kingsguard. Is it commonly known that Ned Stark and his companions went to Dorne and killed the Sword of the Morning, White Bull and Whent?

Well, it is known that Eddard fought Arthur in single combat. And since Eddard and Howland were the only survivors of the battle, they are likely to have been the ones to spread the information.

Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.

[...]

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Lady Dustin is aware of the fact that her husband's remains are located beneath the Red Mountains of Dorne

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard’s bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.”

So presumably, Eddard indeed spread the information that the battle and subsequent deaths occurred there. Whether he mentioned the tower, we can only guess. But it seems logical that Eddard had to admit where he found Lyanna, and the families of those who died would have wanted to know where their loved ones had been burried.

 

On 1-12-2016 at 4:48 AM, Isobel Harper said:

Doesn't Sansa pray for Stannis's army to win the Battle on the Blackwater?  Or is it just Robb she prays for? 

Sansa's prayers in the sept

Sansa knew most of the hymns, and followed along on those she did not know as best she could. She sang along with grizzled old serving men and anxious young wives, with serving girls and soldiers, cooks and falconers, knights and knaves, squires and spit boys and nursing mothers. She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

Stannis is not specifically mentioned here.

Cersei does accuse her of praying for Stannis (and Robb) in the godswood

“Very good, dear.” The queen leaned close. “You want to practice those tears. You’ll need them for King Stannis.”
Sansa shifted nervously. “Your Grace?”
“Oh, spare me your hollow courtesies. Matters must have reached a desperate strait out there if they need a dwarf to lead them, so you might as well take off your mask. I know all about your little treasons in the godswood.”
“The godswood?” Don’t look at Ser Dontos, don’t, don’t, Sansa told herself. She doesn’t know, no one knows, Dontos promised me, my Florian would never fail me. “I’ve done no treasons. I only visit the godswood to pray.”
“For Stannis. Or your brother, it’s all the same. Why else seek your father’s gods? You’re praying for our defeat. What would you call that, if not treason?”

 

[Isobel Harper]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Well, it is known that Eddard fought Arthur in single combat. And since Eddard and Howland were the only survivors of the battle, they are likely to have been the ones to spread the information.

Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.

[...]

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Lady Dustin is aware of the fact that her husband's remains are located beneath the Red Mountains of Dorne

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard’s bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.”

So presumably, Eddard indeed spread the information that the battle and subsequent deaths occurred there. Whether he mentioned the tower, we can only guess. But it seems logical that Eddard had to admit where he found Lyanna, and the families of those who died would have wanted to know where their loved ones had been burried.

 

Sansa's prayers in the sept

Sansa knew most of the hymns, and followed along on those she did not know as best she could. She sang along with grizzled old serving men and anxious young wives, with serving girls and soldiers, cooks and falconers, knights and knaves, squires and spit boys and nursing mothers. She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

Stannis is not specifically mentioned here.

Cersei does accuse her of praying for Stannis (and Robb) in the godswood

“Very good, dear.” The queen leaned close. “You want to practice those tears. You’ll need them for King Stannis.”
Sansa shifted nervously. “Your Grace?”
“Oh, spare me your hollow courtesies. Matters must have reached a desperate strait out there if they need a dwarf to lead them, so you might as well take off your mask. I know all about your little treasons in the godswood.”
“The godswood?” Don’t look at Ser Dontos, don’t, don’t, Sansa told herself. She doesn’t know, no one knows, Dontos promised me, my Florian would never fail me. “I’ve done no treasons. I only visit the godswood to pray.”
“For Stannis. Or your brother, it’s all the same. Why else seek your father’s gods? You’re praying for our defeat. What would you call that, if not treason?”

 

The latter quote was what I was thinking of, I suppose.  Thanks! 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Are there any clues which may explain how Craster discovered that the Others would leave him alone if he gave them his sons?

[Yukle]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Are there any clues which may explain how Craster discovered that the Others would leave him alone if he gave them his sons?

It seems to be common knowledge, of sorts. "The Others take you," is a common curse said to offend people. The stories of the Long Night are fairly well known - but of course it's such an abhorrent thing to abandon your babies that it's not as though many people would do it on purpose.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

30 minutes ago, Yukle said:

It seems to be common knowledge, of sorts. "The Others take you," is a common curse said to offend people. The stories of the Long Night are fairly well known - but of course it's such an abhorrent thing to abandon your babies that it's not as though many people would do it on purpose.

I don't think it is common knowledge that you can give the Others baby boys and they will leave you alone. Maybe my question is not clear. I'm wondering if there are any clues as to how Craster discovered the Others would leave him be if he gave them his sons.

[Yukle]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't think it is common knowledge that you can give the Others baby boys and they will leave you alone. Maybe my question is not clear. I'm wondering if there are any clues as to how Craster discovered the Others would leave him be if he gave them his sons.

In that case it was likely just something he tried and it worked. He hasn't ever allowed his sons to live, so experimenting with them in this way seems to have paid off.

There probably weren't Others around his house from the beginning, he probably just kept leaving his sons to die. Over time, some were taken by Others and eventually this became a deliberate habit of his.

That's my guess, anyway. Otherwise, no, there's no direct evidence as to whether he figured this out or it was an established habit of the Others.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Otherwise, no, there's no direct evidence as to whether he figured this out or it was an established habit of the Others.

Okay. Thanks!

[Lost Melnibonean]

The kindly man has to know Arya retained Needle, right? 

[KingMance]

Quote

 

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The kindly man has to know Arya

retained Needle, right? 

[KingMance]

Sorry, couldn't delete the quoted text on my phone. I definitely think he knows she kept it. I also assume THOBAW doesn't really want her to become no one. Jaqen knows who she is, and probably has a pretty good understanding of the starks and the war to come. Which brings me to my small question...

On my 1,000th reread, in affc, the descriptions of sarella/alleras and jaqen/the alchemist are pretty similar. Since we've seen alleras and "pate" together since then, is it possible jaqen is dornish? Are they in cahoots? Or should I get my tin foil hat out?

[Yukle]

24 minutes ago, KingMance said:

Sorry, couldn't delete the quoted text on my phone. I definitely think he knows she kept it. I also assume THOBAW doesn't really want her to become no one. Jaqen knows who she is, and probably has a pretty good understanding of the starks and the war to come. Which brings me to my small question...

On my 1,000th reread, in affc, the descriptions of sarella/alleras and jaqen/the alchemist are pretty similar. Since we've seen alleras and "pate" together since then, is it possible jaqen is dornish? Are they in cahoots? Or should I get my tin foil hat out?

It's possible but unlikely; "Jaqen" or whoever the FM is most probably (but not definitely) came from Braavos. But I'm certain you'll never know - remember that the FM give up all identity when they become "No one."

[Philokles]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The kindly man has to know Arya retained Needle, right? 

He would have to be pretty incompetent not to and has a history of ignoring clear evidence that she is not becoming no-one, so I would say yes.

[Lost Melnibonean]

40 minutes ago, KingMance said:

Sorry, couldn't delete the quoted text on my phone. I definitely think he knows she kept it. I also assume THOBAW doesn't really want her to become no one. Jaqen knows who she is, and probably has a pretty good understanding of the starks and the war to come. Which brings me to my small question...

On my 1,000th reread, in affc, the descriptions of sarella/alleras and jaqen/the alchemist are pretty similar. Since we've seen alleras and "pate" together since then, is it possible jaqen is dornish? Are they in cahoots? Or should I get my tin foil hat out?

Why would you assume the faceless man that paid Arya's debt and murdered Pate to assume his identity is from Dorne? 

[Rob Storm]

Which prince's  gauntlet did Maester Walgrave have which contained Pate's stolen key?

[Lost Melnibonean]

51 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

Which prince's  gauntlet did Maester Walgrave have which contained Pate's stolen key?

It is not known. 

[KingMance]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Why would you assume the faceless man that paid Arya's debt and murdered Pate to assume his identity is from Dorne? 

Only because of facial/hair descriptions. I forget if jaqen's complexion is mentioned.It's not my first assumption, just a thought that crossed my mind. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, KingMance said:

Only because of facial/hair descriptions. I forget if jaqen's complexion is mentioned.It's not my first assumption, just a thought that crossed my mind. 

But we have no idea what he originally looked like.