Small Questions v. 10105

[apovsic]

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Most likely. But if we can excuse it in universe, that's better, no? 

Sure. So I'll take your explanation. I can't come up with any better (in universe).

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, apovsic said:

Sure. So I'll take your explanation. I can't come up with any better (in universe).

Every other time I've seen this topic, somebody has suggested that it's evidence of Daenerys's intent to usurp Viserys from the beginning, or at least realizing he was not long for this world.

[apovsic]

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Every other time I've seen this topic, somebody has suggested that it's evidence of Daenerys's intent to usurp Viserys from the beginning, or at least realizing he was not long for this world.

First I don't buy, just from her action after of the chapter. Second could work, yeah. Anyway, can you give me some link to those topics (if you have it), so I won't usurp this topic?

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, apovsic said:

First I don't buy, just from her action after of the chapter. Second could work, yeah. Anyway, can you give me some link to those topics (if you have it), so I won't usurp this topic?

I would have to search. Try cutting and pasting this into Google... daenerys viserys heir rhaego site:asoiaf.westeros.org

[apovsic]

Thank you very much.

[Lux in Tenebris]

In CoK, Cersei sends Tommen to Rosby for protection (with Boros Blount and Lord Gyles) prior to Stannis arriving at Kings Landing. In response, Tyrion sends Bywater and Gold Cloaks to seize Tommen and escort him to the same place he was already heading -- and even acknowledges that sending Tommen away was "one of Cersei's better notions." This always seemed strange to me, and I can't understand his motivation or benefit for doing so. 

After Bywater successfully overcomes Tommen and his party Tyrion mentions that the Kingsguard is supposed to sacrifice their lives to protect the king and his kin, yet Blount turned him over without a fight and lost his cloak for it. Was his intent to have Blount killed by Bywater and his men in front of Tommen? Why risk anything happening here (including sending his trusted City Watch Commander from the City) for minimal to no gain, considering Cersei is the one influencing Joffrey's decision to select the next Kingsguard. 

Was it simply a show of power against Cersei? A way to test Gyles and depose/harm Blount? What was the end result he wanted to achieve from this effort?

Still trying to get my head around the logic here -- am I just missing something?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Lux in Tenebris said:

In CoK, Cersei sends Tommen to Rosby for protection (with Boros Blount and Lord Gyles) prior to Stannis arriving at Kings Landing. In response, Tyrion sends Bywater and Gold Cloaks to seize Tommen and escort him to the same place he was already heading -- and even acknowledges that sending Tommen away was "one of Cersei's better notions." This always seemed strange to me, and I can't understand his motivation or benefit for doing so. 

After Bywater successfully overcomes Tommen and his party Tyrion mentions that the Kingsguard is supposed to sacrifice their lives to protect the king and his kin, yet Blount turned him over without a fight and lost his cloak for it. Was his intent to have Blount killed by Bywater and his men in front of Tommen? Why risk anything happening here (including sending his trusted City Watch Commander from the City) for minimal to no gain, considering Cersei is the one influencing Joffrey's decision to select the next Kingsguard. 

Was it simply a show of power against Cersei? A way to test Gyles and depose/harm Blount? What was the end result he wanted to achieve from this effort?

Still trying to get my head around the logic here -- am I just missing something?

More likely captured. But the point Tyrion's thought makes is that, while a KG knight should die before allowing harm to come to the king (and his family), what Blount did could not have been more different: He gave up Joffrey's heir without a fight.

Boros was loyal to Cersei, and Tyrion wanted someone in charge who was loyal to him. And that's Bywater.

[Lux in Tenebris]

21 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

More likely captured. But the point Tyrion's thought makes is that, while a KG knight should die before allowing harm to come to the king (and his family), what Blount did could not have been more different: He gave up Joffrey's heir without a fight.

Boros was loyal to Cersei, and Tyrion wanted someone in charge who was loyal to him. And that's Bywater.

To what? Escort Tommen to Rosby? It seems an odd maneuver to Bywater to escort Tommen to Rosby when he was already on his way there. If the plan was to have that person stay and act as his protector that's one thing, but the function server by Blount (and then Bywater) was simply to escort Tommen and then return to KL. Still am having trouble seeing the plus side for Tyrion here.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, Lux in Tenebris said:

To what? Escort Tommen to Rosby? It seems an odd maneuver to Bywater to escort Tommen to Rosby when he was already on his way there. If the plan was to have that person stay and act as his protector that's one thing, but the function server by Blount (and then Bywater) was simply to escort Tommen and then return to KL. Still am having trouble seeing the plus side for Tyrion here.

In story, the explanation is slim and unconvincing. If Joffery dies, Tommen becomes king, a tractable puppet for the one that controls him...

Quote

"Prince Tommen is a good boy."

"If I pry him away from Cersei and Joffrey while he's still young, he may even grow to be a good man."

"And a good king?"

"Joffrey is king."

"And Tommen is heir, should anything ill befall His Grace. Tommen, whose nature is so sweet, and notably . . . tractable."

"You have a suspicious mind, Varys."

"I shall take that as a tribute, my lord. In any case, Prince Doran will hardly be insensible of the great honor you do him. Very deftly done, I would say . . . but for one small flaw."

The dwarf laughed. "Named Cersei?"

"What avails statecraft against the love of a mother for the sweet fruit of her womb? Perhaps, for the glory of her House and the safety of the realm, the queen might be persuaded to send away Tommen or Myrcella. But both of them? Surely not."

Tyrion IV, Clash 17

Was Tyrion tempted? He wasn't going to off Joffrey...

Quote

"My nephew is not fit to sit a privy, let alone the Iron Throne."

Varys shrugged. "An apprentice must be taught his trade."

"Half the 'prentices on Reeking Lane could rule better than this king of yours." Bronn seated himself across the table and pulled a wing off the capon.

Tyrion had made a practice of ignoring the sellsword's frequent insolences, but tonight he found it galling. "I don't recall giving you leave to finish my supper."

"You didn't look to be eating it," Bronn said through a mouthful of meat. "City's starving, it's a crime to waste food. You have any wine?"

Next he'll want me to pour it for him, Tyrion thought darkly. "You go too far," he warned.

"And you never go far enough." Bronn tossed the wingbone to the rushes. "Ever think how easy life would be if the other one had been born first?" He thrust his fingers inside the capon and tore off a handful of breast. "The weepy one, Tommen. Seems like he'd do whatever he was told, as a good king should."

A chill crept down Tyrion's spine as he realized what the sellsword was hinting at. If Tommen was king . . .

There was only one way Tommen would become king. No, he could not even think it. Joffrey was his own blood, and Jaime's son as much as Cersei's. "I could have your head off for saying that," he told Bronn, but the sellsword only laughed.

Tyrion IX, Clash 41

Cersei makes a move to protect Tommen from Tyrion...

Quote

"The queen intends to send Prince Tommen away." They knelt alone in the hushed dimness of the sept, surrounded by shadows and flickering candles, but even so Lancel kept his voice low. "Lord Gyles will take him to Rosby, and conceal him there in the guise of a page. They plan to darken his hair and tell everyone that he is the son of a hedge knight."

"Is it the mob she fears? Or me?"

"Both," said Lancel.

"Ah." Tyrion had known nothing of this ploy. Had Varys's little birds failed him for once? Even spiders must nod, he supposed . . . or was the eunuch playing a deeper and more subtle game than he knew?

Tyrion X, Clash 44

Tyrion was not overly concerned with the risk of facing Tommen's escort...

Quote

That night, when the Red Keep was dark, Bronn arrived to find him sealing a letter. "Take this to Ser Jacelyn Bywater." The dwarf dribbled hot golden wax down onto the parchment.

"What does it say?" Bronn could not read, so he asked impudent questions.

"That he's to take fifty of his best swords and scout the roseroad." Tyrion pressed his seal into the soft wax.

"Stannis is more like to come up the kingsroad."

"Oh, I know. Tell Bywater to disregard what's in the letter and take his men north. He's to lay a trap along the Rosby road. Lord Gyles will depart for his castle in a day or two, with a dozen men-at-arms, some servants, and my nephew. Prince Tommen may be dressed as a page."

"You want the boy brought back, is that it?"

"No. I want him taken on to the castle." Removing the boy from the city was one of his sister's better notions, Tyrion had decided. At Rosby, Tommen would be safe from the mob, and keeping him apart from his brother also made things more difficult for Stannis; even if he took King's Landing and executed Joffrey, he'd still have a Lannister claimant to contend with. "Lord Gyles is too sickly to run and too craven to fight. He'll command his castellan to open the gates. Once inside the walls, Bywater is to expel the garrison and hold Tommen there safe. Ask him how he likes the sound of Lord Bywater."

"Lord Bronn would sound better. I could grab the boy for you just as well. I'll dandle him on my knee and sing him nursery songs if there's a lordship in it."

"I need you here," said Tyrion. And I don't trust you with my nephew. Should any ill befall Joffrey, the Lannister claim to the Iron Throne would rest on Tommen's young shoulders. Ser Jacelyn's gold cloaks would defend the boy; Bronn's sellswords were more apt to sell him to his enemies.

"What should the new lord do with the old one?"

"Whatever he pleases, so long as he remembers to feed him. I don't want him dying." Tyrion pushed away from the table. "My sister will send one of the Kingsguard with the prince."

Bronn was not concerned. "The Hound is Joffrey's dog, he won't leave him. Ironhand's gold cloaks should be able to handle the others easy enough."

Tyrion X, Clash 44

The execution of the plan was effective...

Quote

The appointment gave him another ear close to the king, unbeknownst to his sister. And even if Ser Osmund proved an utter craven, he would be no worse than Ser Boros Blount, currently residing in a dungeon at Rosby. Ser Boros had been escorting Tommen and Lord Gyles when Ser Jacelyn Bywater and his gold cloaks had surprised them, and had yielded up his charge with an alacrity that would have enraged old Ser Barristan Selmy as much as it did Cersei; a knight of the Kingsguard was supposed to die in defense of the king and royal family. His sister had insisted that Joffrey strip Blount of his white cloak on the grounds of treason and cowardice. And now she replaces him with another man just as hollow. 

Tyrion XI, Clash 49

Quote

Hallyne fled so quickly that he almost bowled over Ser Jacelyn—no, Lord Jacelyn, he must remember that. Ironhand was mercifully direct, as ever. He'd returned from Rosby to deliver a fresh levy of spearmen recruited from Lord Gyles's estates and resume his command of the City Watch. "How does my nephew fare?" Tyrion asked when they were done discussing the city's defenses.

"Prince Tommen is hale and happy, my lord. He has adopted a fawn some of my men brought home from a hunt. He had one once before, he says, but Joffrey skinned her for a jerkin. He asks about his mother sometimes, and often begins letters to the Princess Myrcella, though he never seems to finish any. His brother, however, he does not seem to miss at all."

"You have made suitable arrangements for him, should the battle be lost?"

"My men have their instructions."

"Which are?"

"You commanded me to tell no one, my lord."

That made him smile. "I'm pleased you remember." Should King's Landing fall, he might well be taken alive. Better if he did not know where Joffrey's heir might be found.

Tyrion XI, Clash 49

But it provoke a terrible response by Cersei...

Quote

"What are you trying to say?"

"Only this—I have your little whore."

Tyrion reached for his wine cup, buying a moment to gather his thoughts. "I thought men were more to your taste."

"You're such a droll little fellow. Tell me, have you married this one yet?" When he gave her no answer she laughed and said, "Father will be ever so relieved."

His belly felt as if it were full of eels. How had she found Shae? Had Varys betrayed him? Or had all his precautions been undone by his impatience the night he rode directly to the manse? "Why should you care who I choose to warm my bed?"

"A Lannister always pays his debts," she said. "You've been scheming against me since the day you came to King's Landing. You sold Myrcella, stole Tommen, and now you plot to have Joff killed. You want him dead so you can rule through Tommen."

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

Do Tyrion's thoughts in response betray his motive...

Quote

Well, I can't say the notion isn't tempting.

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

A bit earlier, we had this...

Quote

"Joff's only a boy."

"A boy who wants to be part of this battle, and for once he's showing some sense. I don't intend to put him in the thick of the fighting, but he needs to be seen. Men fight more fiercely for a king who shares their peril than one who hides behind his mother's skirts."

"He's thirteen, Tyrion."

"Remember Jaime at thirteen? If you want the boy to be his father's son, let him play the part. Joff wears the finest armor gold can buy, and he'll have a dozen gold cloaks around him at all times. If the city looks to be in the least danger of falling, I'll have him escorted back to the Red Keep at once."

He had thought that might reassure her, but he saw no sign of pleasure in those green eyes. "Will the city fall?"

"No." But if it does, pray that we can hold the Red Keep long enough for our lord father to march to our relief.

"You've lied to me before, Tyrion."

"Always with good reason, sweet sister. I want amity between us as much as you do. I've decided to release Lord Gyles." He had kept Gyles safe for just this gesture. "You can have Ser Boros Blount back as well."

The queen's mouth tightened. "Ser Boros can rot at Rosby," she said, "but Tommen—"

"—stays where he is. He's safer under Lord Jacelyn's protection than he would ever have been with Lord Gyles."

Serving men cleared away the swan, hardly touched. Cersei beckoned for the sweet. "I hope you like blackberry tarts."

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

So, it is possible that Tyrion was setting up Joffrey to be killed, so he could rule through Tommen. But we see here that Tyrion had no intention of having Joffrey fragged...

Quote

"She'll be treated gently enough, so long as no harm comes to my sons. If Joff should be killed, however, or if Tommen should fall into the hands of our enemies, your little cunt will die more painfully than you can possibly imagine."

She truly believes I mean to kill my own nephew.

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

But here, we can find the narrative reason the author had Tyrion conspire to kidnap Tommen...

Quote

"You swear you'll release her after the battle?"

"If you release Tommen, yes."

He pushed himself to his feet. "Keep her then, but keep her safe. If these animals think they can use her . . . well, sweet sister, let me point out that a scale tips two ways." His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he'd reached for his father's voice, and found it. "Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes." If she thinks me such a monster, I'll play the part for her.

Cersei had not expected that. "You would not dare."

Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. "Dare? I'll do it myself."

His sister's hand flashed at his face, but he caught her wrist and bent it back until she cried out. Osfryd moved to her rescue. "One more step and I'll break her arm," the dwarf warned him. The man stopped. "You remember when I said you'd never hit me again, Cersei?" He shoved her to the floor and turned back to the Kettleblacks. "Untie her and remove that gag."

The rope had been so tight as to cut off the blood to her hands. She cried out in pain as the circulation returned. Tyrion massaged her fingers gently until feeling returned. "Sweetling," he said, "you must be brave. I am sorry they hurt you."

"I know you'll free me, my lord."

"I will," he promised, and Alayaya bent over and kissed him on the brow. Her broken lips left a smear of blood on his forehead. A bloody kiss is more than I deserve, Tyrion thought. She would never have been hurt but for me.

Her blood still marked him as he looked down at the queen. "I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid." In war, his father had told him once, the battle is over in the instant one army breaks and flees. No matter that they're as numerous as they were a moment before, still armed and armored; once they had run before you they would not turn to fight again. So it was with Cersei. "Get out!" was all the answer she could summon. "Get out of my sight!"

Tyrion bowed. "Good night, then. And pleasant dreams."

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

With that, the author has set up the valonqar prophecy, which will dominate Cersei's arc going forward. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Lux in Tenebris said:

To what? Escort Tommen to Rosby? It seems an odd maneuver to Bywater to escort Tommen to Rosby when he was already on his way there. If the plan was to have that person stay and act as his protector that's one thing, but the function server by Blount (and then Bywater) was simply to escort Tommen and then return to KL. Still am having trouble seeing the plus side for Tyrion here.

To have control over Tommen. Cersei did not send Tommen to Rosby only to keep him safe from Stannis and the rioting people in KL. Her second motivation was to get Tommen away from Tyrion. By having Tommen in control of people loyal to him, Tyrion could use Tommen as a threat against Cersei (which he later on does).

[Lux in Tenebris]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In story, the explanation is slim and unconvincing. If Joffery dies, Tommen becomes king, a tractable puppet for the one that controls him...

Tyrion IV, Clash 17

Was Tyrion tempted? He wasn't going to off Joffrey...

Tyrion IX, Clash 41

Cersei makes a move to protect Tommen from Tyrion...

Tyrion X, Clash 44

Tyrion was not overly concerned with the risk of facing Tommen's escort...

Tyrion X, Clash 44

The execution of the plan was effective...

Tyrion XI, Clash 49

Tyrion XI, Clash 49

But it provoke a terrible response by Cersei...

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

Do Tyrion's thoughts in response betray his motive...

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

A bit earlier, we had this...

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

So, it is possible that Tyrion was setting up Joffrey to be killed, so he could rule through Tommen. But we see here that Tyrion had no intention of having Joffrey fragged...

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

But here, we can find the narrative reason the author had Tyrion conspire to kidnap Tommen...

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

With that, the author has set up the valonqar prophecy, which will dominate Cersei's arc going forward. 

Very thorough - thanks. I think what I actually missed in this exchange is that Cersei's motive was just as much to protecting Tommen from the impending threat of Stannis as it is protecting him from Tyrion.

But I still feel like this move was high risk and of questionable reward - how did he expect Cersei to react to the kindnapping of Tommen? Throughout my Clash re-read (and granted, with the full benefit of hindsight) I felt as though Tyrion was too obsessed with dominating Cersei rather than defeating her (aka staying two steps ahead of her instead of just one) which eventually serves as his downfall. I liken it to a fighter who is clearly superior but determined to knock out his opponent and gets himself knocked out in the process rather than cruise to a points win.

But anyways - appreciate the response.

[Lux in Tenebris]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

To have control over Tommen. Cersei did not send Tommen to Rosby only to keep him safe from Stannis and the rioting people in KL. Her second motivation was to get Tommen away from Tyrion. By having Tommen in control of people loyal to him, Tyrion could use Tommen as a threat against Cersei (which he later on does).

Right - and that's what I think I glossed over a bit. Appreciate the response.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 21-9-2017 at 10:01 PM, Lux in Tenebris said:

Right - and that's what I think I glossed over a bit. Appreciate the response.

 Glad to be of help.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

How do we pronounce cyvasse?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

How do we pronounce cyvasse?

"How do you pronounce" are the worst Qs to reply to in writing!

And there's lots of words/names that readers pronounce differently, and as far as I know Martin hasn't spoken about all, only some.

W/ all that said, I pronounce it like this: c - va as in valerian - ss sort of like bouillabaisse. Stress n middle syllable.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

14 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

How do we pronounce cyvasse?

The only way to pronounce anything is the way ROY DOTRICE!  pronounces words and names... and yes, that includes the four different iterations of "Jojen" and "Brienne".

I guess to actually answer your question (which I agree with @kissdbyfire and her point to pronunciation), I would go with how the George would pronounce it like in this video. (should be pasted to the right talking spot)

This all said, it was through another GRRM video interview that I realize I was pronouncing the word Dothraki incorrectly. He uses a much stronger "I" at the end, where I was not. However, there is an interview where George says he really doesn't care/worry about how people pronounce his names, it is the story that matters

If you have the time then watch the whole video because it has some good points. It is from 2015. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It was from a few weeks ago when he was in Helsinki.

That's what the title of the video implies, but it is quite a bit older. It a recording from a Q&A at the Science Fiction Bookstore in Stockholm on June 23, 2015.  

[The Fattest Leech]

13 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That's what the title of the video implies, but it is quite a bit older. It a recording from a Q&A at the Science Fiction Bookstore in Stockholm on June 23, 2015.  

Aah, thank you. Yeah, the video is dated from a recent date. Thanks for the clarification 

[The Fattest Leech]

Do we ever read about Daenerys getting sunburnt or "bronzed" or tanned at any point while she is in Essos?

[Shmedricko]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Do we ever read about Daenerys getting sunburnt or "bronzed" or tanned at any point while she is in Essos?

Not that I can recall. But Egg got a tan while in Dorne:

Egg might want a soak as well, though the boy looked cool and dry, more dusty than sweaty. He never sweated much. He liked the heat. In Dorne he went about bare-chested, and turned brown as a Dornishman. It is his dragon blood, Dunk told himself. Whoever heard of a sweaty dragon? (The Sworn Sword)

So if Daenerys has spent enough time in the sun, I imagine she would be tan too.