Small Questions v. 10105

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but didn't those 300 riders spread out? They were supposed to burn the lands in a rather large area, no? Effective terror isn't terror done by 300 men who fear to spread out... I imagine Clegane spread his men into scores and had them terrorize some smaller settlements and the like.

And come to think of it - wasn't it around that time that Clegane dealt with Castle Darry again? One assumes they went into another direction after they had put down the garrison, including young Lyman Darry.

Gregor had 300, Amory had 300, and Vargo had 300. Given that the Riverlords were protecting their lands, and that Beric's men were in the field, I am not so sure they would have spread themselves too thin. I would expect the sub-units would not have been more than a day's ride or two from each other. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

45 minutes ago, mzso said:

I don't know why you guys are hung up on this. Harrenhal is not the Wall, nor reason for them to get even close to it.

It's not even on the most direct way to Kings Landing according to the map.

No, Cleos would not have gone to Harrenhal--he would have tried to avoid it. But Tywin had 900 men raiding the Riverlands around the God's Eye, making travel between Riverrun and King's Landing problematic. 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Gregor had 300, Amory had 300, and Vargo had 300. Given that the Riverlords were protecting their lands, and that Beric's men were in the field, I am not so sure they would have spread themselves too thin. I would expect the sub-units would not have been more than a day's ride or two from each other. 

Well, Darry is near the Kingsroad, no? That's why Robert's party stopped there. Now, if Cleos crossed that region shortly/some time after Gregor had attacked the castle chances are that he was no longer in the region because the Darry bannermen and levies wouldn't have liked that all that much.

This whole 'protecting their lands' seems to be that the people pretty much went back home, protecting individual castles, keeps, towns, villages, and hovels. Which means that there would have been small Riverlord armies and troops, most of which no match for Tywin's well-armed, well-armored, and well-trained dogs.

We see a little bit of what they do in Arya's and Jaime's chapters - both with the Bloody Mummers and Gregor's men. And Gregor doesn't have 300 men (anymore?) when his gang chances on Arya and her buddies.

Could be that he has done his work already, and was just out for some foraging, but could also be he started with the 300, took some bigger prizes (like Darry) and split up afterwards to squeeze the fat out of the lands he was terrorizing. After all, outside the castles the provisions and food, etc. would be in the towns and villages.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Darry is near the Kingsroad, no? That's why Robert's party stopped there. Now, if Cleos crossed that region shortly/some time after Gregor had attacked the castle chances are that he was no longer in the region because the Darry bannermen and levies wouldn't have liked that all that much.

This whole 'protecting their lands' seems to be that the people pretty much went back home, protecting individual castles, keeps, towns, villages, and hovels. Which means that there would have been small Riverlord armies and troops, most of which no match for Tywin's well-armed, well-armored, and well-trained dogs.

We see a little bit of what they do in Arya's and Jaime's chapters - both with the Bloody Mummers and Gregor's men. And Gregor doesn't have 300 men (anymore?) when his gang chances on Arya and her buddies.

Could be that he has done his work already, and was just out for some foraging, but could also be he started with the 300, took some bigger prizes (like Darry) and split up afterwards to squeeze the fat out of the lands he was terrorizing. After all, outside the castles the provisions and food, etc. would be in the towns and villages.

And they took losses--and we don't know if those losses were replaced. How many men did Amory have when he attacked Yoren? It was a lot. I don't know if we can say how many men Gregor had when he took Arya et al., can we? 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And they took losses--and we don't know if those losses were replaced. How many men did Amory have when he attacked Yoren? It was a lot. I don't know if we can say how many men Gregor had when he took Arya et al., can we? 

We do get a good picture of the entire troupe during their march to Harrenhal, don't we? I never got the vibe Gregor had all that many. Arya even got around to learn a lot of the names. A few dozens or scores, perhaps, not more. Perhaps even less.

The thing just is if you want to terrorize the population in a pretty large region you can ride around with your 300 and cover less ground in a given amount of time, or you can split up, and terrorize more people. Together you can take on the more defenseless smaller castles - as Gregor did with Darry, and Lorch with Yoren's keep - but they weren't doing that kind of stuff when they found Arya.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We do get a good picture of the entire troupe during their march to Harrenhal, don't we? I never got the vibe Gregor had all that many. Arya even got around to learn a lot of the names. A few dozens or scores, perhaps, not more. Perhaps even less.

The thing just is if you want to terrorize the population in a pretty large region you can ride around with your 300 and cover less ground in a given amount of time, or you can split up, and terrorize more people. Together you can take on the more defenseless smaller castles - as Gregor did with Darry, and Lorch with Yoren's keep - but they weren't doing that kind of stuff when they found Arya.

Still subunits of "scores," as you say, would be vulnerable to larger units, especially guerrillas like Beric's men. Having served as a light infantryman, I am pretty familiar with small unit tactics. We had the benefit of radios to effect command and control, though. Since Gregor would have to rely on messengers and other crude signals, I doubt he would have spread his men out more than a day's ride or two. Of course, you might be right--Gregor and the others might have sent their men off in scores to operate independently, and perhaps that's why Beric's men had so much success. 

[Loose Bolt]

Fairmarket, Harrentown, Lord Harroway's town, Maidenpool, Saltpans, Seagard and Stoney Sept are 7 towns in Riverlands (that I could find). Did I find all of them? 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Still subunits of "scores," as you say, would be vulnerable to larger units, especially guerrillas like Beric's men. Having served as a light infantryman, I am pretty familiar with small unit tactics. We had the benefit of radios to effect command and control, though. Since Gregor would have to rely on messengers and other crude signals, I doubt he would have spread his men out more than a day's ride or two. Of course, you might be right--Gregor and the others might have sent their men off in scores to operate independently, and perhaps that's why Beric's men had so much success. 

Beric wasn't really yet a thing, though, when Tywin sent out his men, right? His movement only gains momentum early on in ACoK, and most likely precisely because they were able to attack/overwhelm small units of Lannister men. I don't think they had the power or support early on to take on 300 armored riders - that would have been done (if it was done at all) later on when the smallfolk was flocking to 'King Robert's men' left and right.

I've no view of military life at all; my own picture of medieval warfare the way George portrays seems to be that one man in proper armor would have cowed a score or even more of smallfolk simply because they thought he was a great lord, or something of that sort. At least in small villages and settlements. In a town that kind of thing wouldn't work.

At least that's the image I get from the things we learn about Hoat's modus operandi or the little games the Tickler played. These guys weren't out there to do battle, for the most part, they just drove away/killed whatever men could defend themselves, and then they had fun with the people they captured.

Or take the fine appearance Osgrey's 'troops' make in TSS as an example.

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Beric wasn't really yet a thing, though, when Tywin sent out his men, right? His movement only gains momentum early on in ACoK, and most likely precisely because they were able to attack/overwhelm small units of Lannister men. I don't think they had the power or support early on to take on 300 armored riders - that would have been done (if it was done at all) later on when the smallfolk was flocking to 'King Robert's men' left and right.

I've no view of military life at all; my own picture of medieval warfare the way George portrays seems to be that one man in proper armor would have cowed a score or even more of smallfolk simply because they thought he was a great lord, or something of that sort. At least in small villages and settlements. In a town that kind of thing wouldn't work.

At least that's the image I get from the things we learn about Hoat's modus operandi or the little games the Tickler played. These guys weren't out there to do battle, for the most part, they just drove away/killed whatever men could defend themselves, and then they had fun with the people they captured.

Or take the fine appearance Osgrey's 'troops' make in TSS as an example.

Beric has raiding Tywin's rear and attacking his outriders even before the Battle of the Green Fork. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Beric has raiding Tywin's rear and attacking his outriders even before the Battle of the Green Fork. 

But at that time he is only a mild nuisance, no? The news about his immortality has to spread before the smallfolk looks to him as this savior guy, no?

And even later - Beric never has the power to challenge an army of 300 men, or does he? How strong is that Brotherhood if they really assembled an army?

[After all, this is a questions thread, not our little chatterbox.]

[Lost Melnibonean]

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But at that time he is only a mild nuisance, no? The news about his immortality has to spread before the smallfolk looks to him as this savior guy, no?

And even later - Beric never has the power to challenge an army of 300 men, or does he? How strong is that Brotherhood if they really assembled an army?

[After all, this is a questions thread, not our little chatterbox.]

His storied immortality had begun to spread by the time of Catelyn I, Clash. 

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Fairmarket, Harrentown, Lord Harroway's town, Maidenpool, Saltpans, Seagard and Stoney Sept are 7 towns in Riverlands (that I could find). Did I find all of them? 

Those are the named towns. We know there are more -- Arya mentions traveling through or by multiple towns with Yoren and the recruits in ACoK -- but George has left them unnamed.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

His storied immortality had begun to spread by the time of Catelyn I, Clash. 

Yeah, I assume that's what starts to give the movement momentum. We have to keep in mind that some dude from the Stormlands aided by some Northmen and a weirdo priest wouldn't exactly have become Robin Hood in the Riverlands without that story. The beginning of the whole thing must have been rather humble. Gregor's men killed a lot of people, and the news about Beric's death and resurrection had to spread - again and again - after the second or third death and resurrection the story would have taken root, and from that point on the people would have flocked to the outlaws.

But what do you guys think:

How strong is the Brotherhood without Banners if you attach numbers to them?

[The hairy bear]

On 7/4/2018 at 5:22 PM, Loose Bolt said:

Fairmarket, Harrentown, Lord Harroway's town, Maidenpool, Saltpans, Seagard and Stoney Sept are 7 towns in Riverlands (that I could find). Did I find all of them? 

In "the Princess and the Queen" some others are named (but not mapped): Stonyhead, Sweetwillow, Sallydance, and Bechester. And Tumbler's Falls is mentioned in ASOIAF.

 

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In "the Princess and the Queen" some others are named (but not mapped): Stonyhead, Sweetwillow, Sallydance, and Bechester. And Tumbler's Falls is mentioned in ASOIAF.

Do we know all those are towns, or might some be only villages with names? And isn't Sallydance a place we know from the main series? I remember having severe issues to figure out a German name for that one ;-).

Yeah, we get it in ASoS, too, and it seems to be a small village.

[Nittanian]

On 4/7/2018 at 11:22 AM, Loose Bolt said:

Fairmarket, Harrentown, Lord Harroway's town, Maidenpool, Saltpans, Seagard and Stoney Sept are 7 towns in Riverlands (that I could find). Did I find all of them? 

The Blackwoods have a market town named Mudgrave. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Has anyone ever made the connection between Dragonstone and waking dragons from stone?

I know, it's a weird question.

[mzso]

3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Has anyone ever made the connection between Dragonstone and waking dragons from stone?

I know, it's a weird question.

Well, it first came up on Dragonstone and many stone dragon figures were described there, so I think the connection was always there so it doesn't require making.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 minutes ago, mzso said:

Well, it first came up on Dragonstone and many stone dragon figures were described there, so I think the connection was always there so it doesn't require making.

That's not what I meant, but that's fine.

[The hairy bear]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do we know all those are towns, or might some be only villages with names? And isn't Sallydance a place we know from the main series? I remember having severe issues to figure out a German name for that one ;-).

Yeah, we get it in ASoS, too, and it seems to be a small village.

You are right, they could be only small villages. Although since they are mentioned by name in Glydayn, I assume that they have some relevance.