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Small Questions v. 10105

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, Pycelle is dead but his testimony was given and should be valid. I remember reading something somewhere - how helpful! :lol: - about the other witnesses and all the rest but I can't for the life of me remember where. If I find it I'll link it here.

Quote

Lord Merryweather spoke up from the council table. "What offense have these young maids been accused of, and by whom?"

The septa said, "Megga Tyrell and Elinor Tyrell stand accused of lewdness, fornication, and conspiracy to commit high treason. Alla Tyrell has been charged with witnessing their shame and helping them conceal it. All this Queen Margaery has also been accused of, as well as adultery and high treason."

Cersei put a hand to her breast. "Tell me who is spreading such calumnies about my good-daughter! I do not believe a word of this. My sweet son loves Lady Margaery with all his heart, she could never have been so cruel as to play him false."...

 

..."She is not. I examined her myself, at the behest of His High Holiness. Her maidenhead is not intact. Septa Aglantine and Septa Melicent will say the same, as will Queen Margaery's own septa, Nysterica, who has been confined to a penitent's cell for her part in the queen's shame. Lady Megga and Lady Elinor were examined as well. Both were found to have been broken."

The wasps were growing so loud that the queen could hardly hear herself think. I do hope the little queen and her cousins enjoyed those rides of theirs.

Lord Merryweather thumped his fist on the table. "Lady Margaery had sworn solemn oaths attesting to her maidenhood, to Her Grace the queen and her late father. Many here bore witness. Lord Tyrell has also testified to her innocence, as has the Lady Olenna, whom we all know to be above reproach. Would you have us believe that all of these noble people lied to us?"

"Perhaps they were deceived as well, my lord," said Septa Moelle. "I cannot speak to this. I can only swear to the truth of what I discovered for myself when I examined the queen."

The picture of this sour old crone poking her wrinkled fingers up Margaery's little pink cunt was so droll that Cersei almost laughed. "We insist that His High Holiness allow our own maesters to examine my good-daughter, to determine if there is any shred of truth to these slanders. Grand Maester Pycelle, you shall accompany Septa Moelle back to Beloved Baelor's Sept, and return to us with the truth about our Margaery's maidenhead."

Pycelle had gone the color of curdled white. At council meetings the wretched old fool cannot say enough, but now that I need a few words from him he has lost the power of speech, the queen thought, before the old man finally came out with, "There is no need for me to examine her . . . her privy parts." His voice was a quaver. "I grieve to say . . . Queen Margaery is no maiden. She has required me to make her moon tea, not once, but many times."

A Feast for Crows - Cersei X

 

Edited by Prof. Cecily
added text

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7 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

A Feast for Crows - Cersei X

I meant this:

ADwD, Cersei I

“Randyll Tarly insisted. He was the first to reach King’s Landing when this storm broke, and he brought his army with him. The Tyrell girls will still be tried, but the case against them is weak, His High Holiness admits. All of the men named as the queen’s lovers have denied the accusation or recanted, save for your maimed singer, who appears to be half-mad. So the High Septon handed the girls over to Tarly’s custody and Lord Randyll swore a holy oath to deliver them for trial when the time comes.”
“And her accusers?” the queen demanded. “Who holds them?”
“Osney Kettleblack and the Blue Bard are here, beneath the sept. The Redwyne twins have been declared innocent, and Hamish the Harper has died. The rest are in the dungeons under the Red Keep, in the charge of your man Qyburn.”

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I meant this:

ADwD, Cersei I

“Randyll Tarly insisted. He was the first to reach King’s Landing when this storm broke, and he brought his army with him. The Tyrell girls will still be tried, but the case against them is weak, His High Holiness admits. All of the men named as the queen’s lovers have denied the accusation or recanted, save for your maimed singer, who appears to be half-mad. So the High Septon handed the girls over to Tarly’s custody and Lord Randyll swore a holy oath to deliver them for trial when the time comes.”
“And her accusers?” the queen demanded. “Who holds them?”
“Osney Kettleblack and the Blue Bard are here, beneath the sept. The Redwyne twins have been declared innocent, and Hamish the Harper has died. The rest are in the dungeons under the Red Keep, in the charge of your man Qyburn.”

Perfect! Nice work. 

And here's what I found:

So yes, the brunt of the charges are the lack of a maidenhead and the moon tea. Ser Osmund recants. As for the Blue Bard

Quote

As part of the Tyrell entourage, the Blue Bard sings at the wedding of Tommen I and Margaery Tyrell.[2] Queen Cersei connives to use the Blue Bard as a pawn in her efforts to remove Margaery from King's Landing. She has him arrested and sent to the dungeons for seducing Margaery, though he claims never to have done so. In front of Cersei, he is stripped and mutilated by Qyburn, who removes one each of his eyes and nipples, and is told to tell the story as Cersei wants him to. Under torture he names Margaery's false lovers as:

The Blue Bard also names Ser Loras Tyrell and the Redwyne twins, Horas and Hobber, but Cersei has him recant the three; Loras because the accusation is not credible and the twins because she needs the support of House Redwyne and their ships to deal with the ironborn.[1] After Margaery is successfully framed, Cersei has the Blue Bard arrested again. He is tortured once again by the Faith but continues to tell the story Cersei wants him to.[3]

A Dance with Dragons

The Blue Bard is still held by the Faith. According to Kevan Lannister, he appears to have gone mad.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blue_Bard

It's a disgusting story,all in all. 

 

By the way, there was an historical Blue Bard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraint_the_Blue_Bard

edited:

Arggghhh!

Like Oswain, Geraint was a fake.

Edited by Prof. Cecily

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5 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Perfect! Nice work. 

And here's what I found:

So yes, the brunt of the charges are the lack of a maidenhead and the moon tea. Ser Osmund recants. As for the Blue Bard

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blue_Bard

It's a disgusting story,all in all. 

 

By the way, there was an historical Blue Bard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraint_the_Blue_Bard

It is. Qyburn and his chamber of horrors, so very creepy! :eek:

 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

It is. Qyburn and his chamber of horrors, so very creepy! :eek:

 

Yes.

And also, her acceptance of these horrors is a grotesque testimony of Cersei's spiralling madness.

I wonder what role Qyburn is going to play in the future.

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1 minute ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Yes.

And also, her acceptance of these horrors is a grotesque testimony of Cersei's spiralling madness.

I wonder what role Qyburn is going to play in the future.

Absolutely. What Cersei does to Falyse Stokeworth is beyond horrendous.

^^ or has Qyburn do to Falyse. Still, on her orders.

Edited by kissdbyfire

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2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

My pleasure!

The thread is an interesting read, though it degenerates to bickering in the last pages.

I think the references to the real crimes of Queen Margaery rather intriguing:

the lack of a maidenhead, as confirmed by a septa's examination

the use of moon tea

 

With her crimes thus defined, plus the damning confessions of the tortured men, I think GRRM is mirroring historical trials of medieval queens and noblewomen.

High drama? Oh, yes.

I have seen some people theorize that Margaery was getting the moon tea for one of her cousins, although she can't say that in trial unless she's willing to ruin one of her cousins' reputations (and possibly more). Others have talked about moon tea being used for period cramps, but I honestly doubt that's it. It actually would be kind of interesting if it turned out that Cersei was right about Margaery having a secret lover, since she personally doesn't believe it (although I'm not sure when or how Margaery would be able to meet with someone in secret, since she always has her ladies with her). The only way we'll likely ever know for sure is if a member of House Tyrell has a POV (likely as a prologue or epilogue) or if Varys reveals the truth to one of the POVs, such as Tyrion or JonCon. I'm really hoping we hear Varys' take on all of this.

46 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

IIRC we got into the evidence against Margaery a few pages into this thread...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/138239-margaerys-moon-tea/

I'll have to check this out. Thanks!

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Update: So, after reading through the threads linked here (thanks again, everyone!) I think it's most likely that the moon tea was for Elinor. She's flowered and betrothed, and Margaery probably believed that, as the queen, she could help her cousin without anyone questioning her. If she asked her own maester, he would be have been suspicious and reported back to Mace or Olenna, and technically the Grand Maester is supposed to serve the king and queen above all else. (The conversation about the way Pycelle phrased his reply is actually very insightful in showing how the moon tea may not have been for Margaery). It would also explain why Marg hasn't come right out and denied this, since she wouldn't want to expose her cousin. It also has not been lost on me that after Cersei tells Marg that Pycelle has confessed to giving her moon tea, we aren't given any sort of reply from her.

Even though I think this is the most likely explanation, it could still be that Marg was having sex and, not realizing just how closely Cersei was watching over her, made the mistake of going to Pycelle. I think this would make a great twist, and it definitely makes me wonder who the man she was seeing is (any suggestions?). However, Marg is always being followed by her ladies, and Cersei's been spying on her pretty heavily for months. It doesn't sound like she was sneaking off to meet with a secret lover. 

I will say though, I definitely think Margaery's marriage to Renly was consummated. 

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8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

IIRC we got into the evidence against Margaery a few pages into this thread...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/138239-margaerys-moon-tea/

Thank you! 

:read:

 

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Update: So, after reading through the threads linked here (thanks again, everyone!) I think it's most likely that the moon tea was for Elinor. She's flowered and betrothed, and Margaery probably believed that, as the queen, she could help her cousin without anyone questioning her. If she asked her own maester, he would be have been suspicious and reported back to Mace or Olenna, and technically the Grand Maester is supposed to serve the king and queen above all else. (The conversation about the way Pycelle phrased his reply is actually very insightful in showing how the moon tea may not have been for Margaery). It would also explain why Marg hasn't come right out and denied this, since she wouldn't want to expose her cousin. It also has not been lost on me that after Cersei tells Marg that Pycelle has confessed to giving her moon tea, we aren't given any sort of reply from her.

Even though I think this is the most likely explanation, it could still be that Marg was having sex and, not realizing just how closely Cersei was watching over her, made the mistake of going to Pycelle. I think this would make a great twist, and it definitely makes me wonder who the man she was seeing is (any suggestions?). However, Marg is always being followed by her ladies, and Cersei's been spying on her pretty heavily for months. It doesn't sound like she was sneaking off to meet with a secret lover. 

I will say though, I definitely think Margaery's marriage to Renly was consummated. 

An interesting idea. 

Hmmm.

It's hard for me to imagine a pupil of Lady Olenna would go to Pycelle for moon tea. Or anything else. 

 

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Absolutely. What Cersei does to Falyse Stokeworth is beyond horrendous.

^^ or has Qyburn do to Falyse. Still, on her orders.

Oh, yes. Cersei's reactions to Falyse's condition after being subjecting to Qyburn's learning experience is one of the most chilling things I've read so far in the saga.

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5 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

An interesting idea. 

Hmmm.

It's hard for me to imagine a pupil of Lady Olenna would go to Pycelle for moon tea. Or anything else. 

 

It does seem strange, doesn't it? But we know she did, so there must be some explanation for it. Margaery may be clever, but for all her preparation, she hasn't seen how poisonous the Red Keep is up close the way Sansa did. We know Sansa did not even trust her maids, which Margaery didn't seem to think twice about, despite having found a maid to spy on Cersei herself. When Margaery came to King's Landing, she was surrounded by family and they were the reigning heroes of the city. That could have gone to her head a bit and made Marg think she was more secure than she truly was. 

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It does seem strange, doesn't it? But we know she did, so there must be some explanation for it. Margaery may be clever, but for all her preparation, she hasn't seen how poisonous the Red Keep is up close the way Sansa did. We know Sansa did not even trust her maids, which Margaery didn't seem to think twice about, despite having found a maid to spy on Cersei herself. When Margaery came to King's Landing, she was surrounded by family and they were the reigning heroes of the city. That could have gone to her head a bit and made Marg think she was more secure than she truly was. 

Well, hmmmm.

We know Pycelle says she did.

A POV of this Tyrell queen and thrice queen would have been interesting.

You could well be right about the over-confidence, yes. 

Yet how do you defend yourself against a Cersei?

The answer is obvious,of course. The Red Keep is full of staircases, after all.

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Well, hmmmm.

We know Pycelle says she did.

A POV of this Tyrell queen and thrice queen would have been interesting.

You could well be right about the over-confidence, yes. 

Yet how do you defend yourself against a Cersei?

The answer is obvious,of course. The Red Keep is full of staircases, after all.

 

 

Of course, Cersei would actually wield more power if she focused on being the regent instead of looking for ways to get rid of Margaery. But as Tyrion says, if she did that then she wouldn't be Cersei.

I am curious what the punishment will be if Marg is found guilty. Will they actually goes as far as to behead her? 

In the event that she is having sex, who do you think her lover might be? I'm guessing it's someone that isn't being accused. 

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9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Of course, Cersei would actually wield more power if she focused on being the regent instead of looking for ways to get rid of Margaery. But as Tyrion says, if she did that then she wouldn't be Cersei.

I am curious what the punishment will be if Marg is found guilty. Will they actually goes as far as to behead her? 

In the event that she is having sex, who do you think her lover might be? I'm guessing it's someone that isn't being accused. 

Well, if she sticks to a story of either Renly or Joffry having taken her maidenhead, I don't know.

Those religious fanatics will always be able to nab her her having entered the Great Sept on Maidens' Day. 

I can't predict the outcome. it could be anything from a walk of shame to becoming a Silent Sister to death.

 

Unless GRRM has something else in mind for her.

 

A lover? I'd say no. No lover at all. 

What do you reckon?

 

 

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A couple catelyn/littlefinger related questions:

1) in AGOT, when Catelyn arrives at KL, the guards how her a seal, the mockingbird, and she recognizes it as LF's.  How did she know that was his personal sigil when she hadn't seen him since he left riverrun after his duel with Brandon? 

2) also in AGOT, when she meets LF in KL she asks LF "Does Varys know about..."  What do you think she is asking about?

 

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1) she probably just knows LF adopted the seal.

2) it could be a big mystery or just whether he knows why she is there. probably the latter.

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When Asha met Tycho Nestoris at the crofter’s village, he told her that he "was given to understand that I might find King Stannis here." We know that Jon sent guides with Tycho to Deepwood Motte, where he ransomed Asha's six remaining men, and then sought Stannis at Winterfell, where he met Mors Umber and picked up Theon and the presumed Arya. 

Now, who do you suppose told Tycho that Stannis was at the crofter’s village? 

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9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

When Asha met Tycho Nestoris at the crofter’s village, he told her that he "was given to understand that I might find King Stannis here." We know that Jon sent guides with Tycho to Deepwood Motte, where he ransomed Asha's six remaining men, and then sought Stannis at Winterfell, where he met Mors Umber and picked up Theon and the presumed Arya. 

Now, who do you suppose told Tycho that Stannis was at the crofter’s village? 

Man, you are making me nervous.

Tycho went from DWM to Winterfell by the direction of the Glover's back in DWM because Stannis had just been there. So Tycho heads to Winterfell, has Theon land on his head, and then goes with Mors and Theon and fArya back to the Crofter's Village... right?

But for some reason... twow...

Spoiler

When Stannis sends Tycho back to the Wall, he sends 12 horses for only six people. That always struck me as odd. Are the extra horses payment for some intel?

 

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Ok, what do you make of this?

Winds of Winter - Theon I

 
Spoiler

 

And Jeyne had nodded. "Arya. My name is Arya."
[Mors Umber] "Arya of Winterfell, aye. When last I was inside those walls, your cook served us a steak and kidney pie. Made with ale, I think, best I ever tasted. What was his name, that cook?"
"Gage," Jeyne said at once. "He was a good cook. He would make lemoncakes for Sansa whenever we had lemons."

 

 
 
As a matter of fact, this seems to be the only place in the entire series where steak and kidney pie is mentioned. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=steak+and+kidney+pie+

However, best as I can find, Mors would have last been at Winterfell for the Harvest feast back in ACOK/Bran III, and there they had this (below), which means fArya answered the wrong question (or failed to correct Mors) so he knows fArya is fake, because there was no pie as mentioned in the TWOW chapter... or, George messed up (I know TWOW is 'as is' until published):

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"You did well, Bran," Ser Rodrik told him. "Lord Eddard would have been most proud." Down the table, Maester Luwin nodded his agreement as the servers began to carry in the food.
Such food Bran had never seen; course after course after course, so much that he could not manage more than a bite or two of each dish. There were great joints of aurochs roasted with leeks, venison pies chunky with carrots, bacon, and mushrooms, mutton chops sauced in honey and cloves, savory duck, peppered boar, goose, skewers of pigeon and capon, beef-and-barley stew, cold fruit soup. Lord Wyman had brought twenty casks of fish from White Harbor packed in salt and seaweed; whitefish and winkles, crabs and mussels, clams, herring, cod, salmon, lobster and lampreys. There was black bread and honeycakes and oaten biscuits; there were turnips and pease and beets, beans and squash and huge red onions; there were baked apples and berry tarts and pears poached in strongwine. Wheels of white cheese were set at every table, above and below the salt, and flagons of hot spice wine and chilled autumn ale were passed up and down the tables.
Lord Wyman's musicians played bravely and well, but harp and fiddle and horn were soon drowned beneath a tide of talk and laughter, the clash of cup and plate, and the snarling of hounds fighting for table scraps. The singer sang good songs, "Iron Lances" and "The Burning of the Ships" and "The Bear and the Maiden Fair," but only Hodor seemed to be listening. He stood beside the piper, hopping from one foot to the other.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Mors knew Arya was not there for the harvest feast in ACOK (since she went south with Ned in AGOT), so why would he expect her to know if a specific dish was served at a feast which she didn't attend? Jeyne doesn't agree or disagree with the pie comment, but she does correctly answer that Gage was Winterfell's cook. At this point I think it more likely to be a discrepancy by GRRM rather than an attempt at trickery.

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