Jump to content
Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10105

Recommended Posts

Pie. Any ideas?

I think the pie at the wedding reception, with the live pigeons baked inside, is an important metaphor, but I haven't quite nailed it yet.

My current best guess is that it's part of the repeating motif of rebirth throughout the books: pigeons baked in a pie should be dead, yet these birds are "reborn" to fly away when the crust is broken. But rebirth of what? Westeros?

By contrast, the pie Joffrey eats, with hot spiced pigeon meat in it, is suspected as a possible source of the poison that kills him. Joffrey himself implicates the pie with his "kof the pie" dying words. So do we have birth pie and death pie side by side? If so, why?

Additional possible clues that I haven't sorted out yet: Arya's friend Hot Pie. He comes from King's Landing with her, and Arya beats him with her wooden sword (like Joffrey and Margaery, cutting the big pie?). He then stays with Gendry, who may be the "true" heir of Robert Baratheon.

So maybe the "fake" pie that couldn't be eaten is associated with Joffrey, and the "real" pie, who produces bread for others, is associated with Gendry (and/or Arya).

There is a Pandora's Box symbol when Arya gives Jaqen H'ghar the hatchet to break out of the prison wagon in Yoren's wagon train. Maybe the pie is Joffrey's (and/or Margaery's) Pandora's Box?

Soon after Arya escapes the Red Keep, she catches and kills a pigeon, planning to sell the meat to buy food. But it falls out of her belt before she can get any value out of it. Does this clarify anything about the pigeon pie?

Sorry if this is too long for this thread. I start thinking out loud once I start typing.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

 

Thanks for your answers, that does make sense, although the sheer amount of hatred for him still does seem excessive if those are his only crimes.

The first quote you responded too painted him in a very moderate picture.  He doesn't just state theories, he creates videos in which he states things which are not in the books are in the books, and then uses the facts he has made up to create really nonsensical theories.  Then, when you point out all the reasons his theories are nonsensical he either refuses to respond, or just lies again.

It's not just that he creates far fetched theories, it's how he go's about misrepresenting them, and not listing to reason about them. 

To be fair, he is certainly not the only person that makes a theory and gets mad when it's pointed out that he was wrong, a lot of that happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Seams said:

Pie. Any ideas?

I think the pie at the wedding reception, with the live pigeons baked inside, is an important metaphor, but I haven't quite nailed it yet.

My current best guess is that it's part of the repeating motif of rebirth throughout the books: pigeons baked in a pie should be dead, yet these birds are "reborn" to fly away when the crust is broken. But rebirth of what? Westeros?

By contrast, the pie Joffrey eats, with hot spiced pigeon meat in it, is suspected as a possible source of the poison that kills him. Joffrey himself implicates the pie with his "kof the pie" dying words. So do we have birth pie and death pie side by side? If so, why?

Additional possible clues that I haven't sorted out yet: Arya's friend Hot Pie. He comes from King's Landing with her, and Arya beats him with her wooden sword (like Joffrey and Margaery, cutting the big pie?). He then stays with Gendry, who may be the "true" heir of Robert Baratheon.

So maybe the "fake" pie that couldn't be eaten is associated with Joffrey, and the "real" pie, who produces bread for others, is associated with Gendry (and/or Arya).

There is a Pandora's Box symbol when Arya gives Jaqen H'ghar the hatchet to break out of the prison wagon in Yoren's wagon train. Maybe the pie is Joffrey's (and/or Margaery's) Pandora's Box?

Soon after Arya escapes the Red Keep, she catches and kills a pigeon, planning to sell the meat to buy food. But it falls out of her belt before she can get any value out of it. Does this clarify anything about the pigeon pie?

Sorry if this is too long for this thread. I start thinking out loud once I start typing.

 

 

I have bounced ideas around in the Wow, I never noticed that threads. 

By the way, you can't talk about pie without talking Frey pies...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I have bounced ideas around in the Wow, I never noticed that threads. 

By the way, you can't talk about pie without talking Frey pies...

I will search the Wow thread. Thank you. Yes, the Frey pies definitely link to the Flea Bottom shops that will cook a pigeon for a person, but also sell bowls of brown ("Singer Stew"). Those seem to fit with the notion of a "death pie" like the one Joffrey ate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Seams said:

I will search the Wow thread. Thank you. Yes, the Frey pies definitely link to the Flea Bottom shops that will cook a pigeon for a person, but also sell bowls of brown ("Singer Stew"). Those seem to fit with the notion of a "death pie" like the one Joffrey ate.

I wouldn't seach the Wow threads, just post your ideas and see what come back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The first quote you responded too painted him in a very moderate picture.  He doesn't just state theories, he creates videos in which he states things which are not in the books are in the books, and then uses the facts he has made up to create really nonsensical theories.  Then, when you point out all the reasons his theories are nonsensical he either refuses to respond, or just lies again.

It's not just that he creates far fetched theories, it's how he go's about misrepresenting them, and not listing to reason about them. 

To be fair, he is certainly not the only person that makes a theory and gets mad when it's pointed out that he was wrong, a lot of that happens.

And then his fans come here and rave about his theories, and its just another layer of people who 'know' false facts and favour clearly bullshit theories, continuing to lower of the quality of this site...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The first quote you responded too painted him in a very moderate picture.  He doesn't just state theories, he creates videos in which he states things which are not in the books are in the books, and then uses the facts he has made up to create really nonsensical theories.  Then, when you point out all the reasons his theories are nonsensical he either refuses to respond, or just lies again.

It's not just that he creates far fetched theories, it's how he go's about misrepresenting them, and not listing to reason about them. 

To be fair, he is certainly not the only person that makes a theory and gets mad when it's pointed out that he was wrong, a lot of that happens.

That does make more sense: I can see now that the vitriol reserved for him is clearly justified in light of that!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Winds question.

 . “Any child of ours would be baseborn. Only a trueborn child of House Arryn can displace Ser Harrold as your heir. My father will find a proper wife for you, some highborn girl much prettier than me

I don't get it, smallfolk can't birth lords? Or is Sansa lying?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Winds question.

 

  Hide contents

 . “Any child of ours would be baseborn. Only a trueborn child of House Arryn can displace Ser Harrold as your heir. My father will find a proper wife for you, some highborn girl much prettier than me

I don't get it, smallfolk can't birth lords? Or is Sansa lying?

 

 

No, she's not lying. I believe "baseborn" implies both a commoner mother and bastardy. I think technically a commoner could be the mother of a lord, it'd just incredibly rare because social status is so important in the Seven Kingdoms. The only example I can think of is the Spicers, though they were raised to lordship a couple generations after becoming landed knights instead of commoners.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2016 at 1:23 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Coincidentally, I've been doing some research into this lately, possibly in preparation for a project. A short version as an answer to your questions below. (I'm going to tackle your questions in the order in which they occured in the timeline)

 

We don't know exactly. We know that Tyrion wanted to tour the Free Cities at the age of sixteen, and that his uncles had done so at that age as well. That might suggest that Doran would have left Dorne for the Free Cities at a similar age. We also know that by 273 AC, Doran had returned to Westeros, with Mellario, and they were, at this point, already betrothed. 

Since Doran was born in either 247 AC or 248 AC, he would have turned 16 in 263/264 AC. I'd this assume that Doran left at a later age than Tyrion had wanted to, and his uncles had done. Especially considering the fact that he said he visited his mother whilst Oberyn was at the Water Gardens (born in 257/258 AC, Oberyn's years at the WG would have begun in 262/263, and lasted maximally 6 years - though possibly, he was fostered away at an earlier age than 11, like Doran himself had been), It would seem that Doran indeed left for the Free Cities at a later age than 16. (Perhaps this is associated with the fact that he was the heir to the Kingdom, and not a younger son, like Tyrion's uncles had been).

We also don't know which route Doran took, nor how long it took him in total. All we know about his travels is that, on his way to Norvos, he visited Volantis.

 

By 273 AC, Mellario and Doran were betrothed and in Dorne, but we have no idea (nor any hint) as to when they arrived in Dorne, or when their betrothal began. We do know, however, that they were married within a few years, as Arianne was born in 267 AC.

 

Arianne was supposed to be a cupbearer to the Archon, and the cupbearers mentioned in the story are generall some 10 to 12 years of age. Considering her birth year (276 AC), that would have been around 286/288 AC).

 

I recently added this one to the wiki as well. Mellario was still in Dorne when Arianne was 14 years old (thus, in 290 or 291 AC). We also know that Doran and Mellario spent "half their marriage" apart. Since their marriage began in or between 273 AC And 276 AC, still being in Dorne in 290/291 AC would already mean that she spent more than exactly half of her marriage in Dorne. Thus, suggesting that she would have left rather shortly after the memory Arianne has placing her in Dorne (shortly meaning anything up to a few short year). But the early 290ties, certainly.

 

And nothing is said about that being the same year as Doran trying to send Arianne to Tyrosh. In fact, I'd say multiple things point against that being the case.

THANK YOU!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Winds question.

 

  Hide contents

 . “Any child of ours would be baseborn. Only a trueborn child of House Arryn can displace Ser Harrold as your heir. My father will find a proper wife for you, some highborn girl much prettier than me

I don't get it, smallfolk can't birth lords? Or is Sansa lying?

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

 

  Hide contents

No, she's not lying. I believe "baseborn" implies both a commoner mother and bastardy. I think technically a commoner could be the mother of a lord, it'd just incredibly rare because social status is so important in the Seven Kingdoms. The only example I can think of is the Spicers, though they were raised to lordship a couple generations after becoming landed knights instead of commoners.  

 

Seems like a common mistake amongst highborn children.

"I call it being wroth," Egg declared loftily. "His Grace should have made my father Hand. He's his brother , and the finest battle commander in the realm since Uncle Baelor died. Lord Bloodraven's not even a real lord, that's just some stupid courtesy . He's a sorcerer, and baseborn besides."

"Bastard born, not baseborn." Bloodraven might not be a real lord, but he was noble on both sides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, RumHam said:

 

  Hide contents

No, she's not lying. I believe "baseborn" implies both a commoner mother and bastardy. I think technically a commoner could be the mother of a lord, it'd just incredibly rare because social status is so important in the Seven Kingdoms. The only example I can think of is the Spicers, though they were raised to lordship a couple generations after becoming landed knights instead of commoners.  

 

 

11 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

Seems like a common mistake amongst highborn children.

"I call it being wroth," Egg declared loftily. "His Grace should have made my father Hand. He's his brother , and the finest battle commander in the realm since Uncle Baelor died. Lord Bloodraven's not even a real lord, that's just some stupid courtesy . He's a sorcerer, and baseborn besides."

"Bastard born, not baseborn." Bloodraven might not be a real lord, but he was noble on both sides.

Thanks.

Huh, interesting. So if Tysha had a happy marriage and a son, he would still not be considered an heir to the rock. Grimey.

What about Davos' kids? They're baseborn, though I guess Stannis could remove that like Jon's bastardry. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Thanks.

Huh, interesting. So if Tysha had a happy marriage and a son, he would still not be considered an heir to the rock. Grimey.

What about Davos' kids? They're baseborn, though I guess Stannis could remove that like Jon's bastardry. 

No, said child probably would be an heir (unless Tywin should disinherit Tyrion or something).  The main concern is if the child is trueborn. 

Baseborn refers to someone "common" or "low class" (on a social scale).  Bastardborn simply refers to someone born out of wedlock.  Some highborn children, apparently, see both as being "beneath them" so to speak and intermix the terms.

ETA: And Stannis granted Davos his own keep.  I expect his sons to inherit like any other lords keep.

Edited by Isobel Harper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

No, said child probably would be an heir (unless Tywin should disinherit Tyrion or something).  The main concern is if the child is trueborn. 

Baseborn refers to someone "common" or "low class" (on a social scale).  Bastardborn simply refers to someone born out of wedlock.  Some highborn children, apparently, see both as being "beneath them" so to speak and intermix the terms.

ETA: And Stannis granted Davos his own keep.  I expect his sons to inherit like any other lords keep.

I'm pretty sure the term "baseborn" is consistently applied to bastards in the books, not commoners. There are loads of examples of Jon and Edric being called baseborn. Along with things like:

Quote

Roro Uhoris, a Tyroshi known up and down the narrow sea as the Blind Bastard, though he was neither blind nor baseborn.

It's not just snobby nobles mixing up the terms, as it occurs in the appendices too.

Quote

- his baseborn nephew, EDRIC STORM, a boy of twelve, bastard son of King Robert by Delena Florent,

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

Seems like a common mistake amongst highborn children.

"I call it being wroth," Egg declared loftily. "His Grace should have made my father Hand. He's his brother , and the finest battle commander in the realm since Uncle Baelor died. Lord Bloodraven's not even a real lord, that's just some stupid courtesy . He's a sorcerer, and baseborn besides."

"Bastard born, not baseborn." Bloodraven might not be a real lord, but he was noble on both sides.

Bloodraven isnt a real lord though. He is given the title as a courtesy like Varys due to his position on the Small Council

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2016 at 3:01 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

During the kingsmoot in Aeron's second chapter in AFFC a gull squawking is mentioned several times. Is there any significance to this? My first thought was BR. Are there any thought, theories, or opinions on this? Or am I reading into a stupid squawking bird too much?

Just a repost to get some thoughts (hopefully).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×