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16 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It'd be cool to one day get a dragon family tree or at least a list of all the Targaryen dragons and their riders. Though I'd imagine that in universe they're usually not sure who the parents of any given clutch of eggs are. Otherwise Barth's theory that they can change genders shouldn't be so controversial. 

One the wiki, there's a list of dragons, of known dragons at least: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragon#Historical_Dragons  Their riders (or at least known riders) are also listed.

But you're right.  A complete dragon family tree would be pretty sweet.  Perhaps in Fire and Blood?

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Where is that stated?

I dunno that it is ever explicitly stated. The closest thing that springs to mind is the line LV mentioned about the Dragonpit's construction. But if we accept that Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes were the last three dragons in the world at the time of the conquest then it's an inescapable conclusion isn't it? Barring something similar to Daenerys' petrified eggs hatching, which I do believe was a special occurrence. In other words under normal conditions I don't think really old eggs someone found would hatch. 

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4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I dunno that it is ever explicitly stated. The closest thing that springs to mind is the line LV mentioned about the Dragonpit's construction. But if we accept that Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes were the last three dragons in the world at the time of the conquest then it's an inescapable conclusion isn't it? Barring something similar to Daenerys' petrified eggs hatching, which I do believe was a special occurrence. In other words under normal conditions I don't think really old eggs someone found would hatch. 

Well, not exactly. Aenar brought five dragons with him, and who's to say that he didn't bring eggs with him either? By the time of the Conquet, Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes might have been the only three dragons alive (which is never explicitly stated, as far as I can currently recall - think about the 'wild' dragons living on Dragonstone at the start of the Dance), but there might have been eggs from the previous four dragons still left on Dragonstone, or even from Valyria, unhatched, from which one of the other dragons known to us eventually hatched.

The quote mentioned by LV only displays the situation as Maegor witnessed it (can "their get" only indicate "offspring", or can it also mean "those like them", or something similar, indicating all other dragons, regardless of who laid the eggs?).. But Maegor died within a few years, and whatever eggs hatched after his death, he cannot have known which eggs laid by which dragons that would be.

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28 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Well, not exactly. Aenar brought five dragons with him, and who's to say that he didn't bring eggs with him either? By the time of the Conquet, Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes might have been the only three dragons alive (which is never explicitly stated, as far as I can currently recall - think about the 'wild' dragons living on Dragonstone at the start of the Dance), but there might have been eggs from the previous four dragons still left on Dragonstone, or even from Valyria, unhatched, from which one of the other dragons known to us eventually hatched.

The quote mentioned by LV only displays the situation as Maegor witnessed it (can "their get" only indicate "offspring", or can it also mean "those like them", or something similar, indicating all other dragons, regardless of who laid the eggs?).. But Maegor died within a few years, and whatever eggs hatched after his death, he cannot have known which eggs laid by which dragons that would be.

I'm quite sure at one point Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes were the last three. I don't buy the smallfolk stories of cannibal being on Dragonstone before the Targaryens came. I think they're just Targaryen dragons that for whatever reason were never claimed. This quote for example makes it pretty clear they were the only three at one point:

Quote

Of the five dragons who had flown with Aenar the Exil from Valyria, only one survived to Aegon’s day: the great beast called Balerion, the Black Dread. The remaining two dragons—Vhagar and Meraxes—were younger, hatched on Dragonstone itself.

Yeah, I suppose there could have been eggs left over from some of the other four dragons who came from Valyria. But how old is the fourth oldest Targaryen dragon? (Quicksilver or Vermithor maybe?) I get that dragons are magical creatures, but I think it's unlikely that some old egg hatched years after it was laid. (again with Daenery's situation being a "one time magical event" that had been prophesied as "waking dragons from stone.") So i'd say it's not 100% certain (unless it is and we just can't remember the quote) but it's extremely likely.

Also the five dragons brought from Valyria were probably all related. So even if one of the unnamed dragons egg's did hatch after it had died the baby dragon would still likely be related to Balerion and the others, if not descended from them. 

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27 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm quite sure at one point Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes were the last three. I don't buy the smallfolk stories of cannibal being on Dragonstone before the Targaryens came. I think they're just Targaryen dragons that for whatever reason were never claimed. This quote for example makes it pretty clear they were the only three at one point:

Yeah, that quote makes it rather clear. Thanks, I couldn't recall that one for a moment :)

27 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, I suppose there could have been eggs left over from some of the other four dragons who came from Valyria. But how old is the fourth oldest Targaryen dragon? (Quicksilver or Vermithor maybe?) I get that dragons are magical creatures, but I think it's unlikely that some old egg hatched years after it was laid. (again with Daenery's situation being a "one time magical event" that had been prophesied as "waking dragons from stone.") So i'd say it's not 100% certain (unless it is and we just can't remember the quote) but it's extremely likely.

Hmm.. I don't think we have a quote regarding how long an egg might be in someone's possesion until it hatches. Aegon II's twins receive eggs in the cradle and these appear to hatch rather quickly, but we have no further descriptions. However, for each of the children (Jacaerys, Lucerys, Joffrey, Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, Jaehaera, Maelor) there already appear to be eggs ready to be handed out. Did it happen every single time that a dragon coincidentally had laid a clutch of eggs around the time of the birth of a Targaryen child?

 

27 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also the five dragons brought from Valyria were probably all related. So even if one of the unnamed dragons egg's did hatch after it had died the baby dragon would still likely be related to Balerion and the others, if not descended from them. 

I agree.

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@Isobel Harper

Laena's line actually survived. Both Baela and Rhaena had issue, and it seems as if the current Velaryons are direct descendants of Alyn and Baela wheres Rhaena's six daughters by Garmund may have carried the blood of the dragon into six other noble lines. And, in fact, it is all but confirmed that at least one such descendant was reabsorbed back into the main Targaryen line (Aelinor Penrose). And if Ronnel Penrose is also a descendant of Rhaena and Garmund then Elaena's four children by him (one of which was even Laena!) are also descended from her.

As to additional/missing dragons:

I think there is a very good reason to assume that the elder sons of Aenys I, Aegon and Viserys, also were dragonriders from childhood on, and subsequently they would have had their own dragons.

The age and size of Vermithor (biggest and oldest Targaryen dragon alive after the death of Vhagar) creates some serious contradictions.

First Dreamfyre should technically have been at least older (if not also bigger) than Vermithor due to the fact that she was Rhaena's dragon who was eleven years older than Jaehaerys, making it unlikely that her dragon should have been younger than Jaehaerys unless there is a good explanation for this.

My attempt at an explanation is that Rhaena originally did not ride Dreamfyre but another dragon who died. I think it might have been killed by the Faith Militant when the rebels interrupted the royal progress and eventually besieged Rhaena and Aegon at Crakehall Castle. During the same time Prince Aegon's own original dragon might have been killed, too, explaining why he ended up riding his father's dragon Quicksilver during his war against Maegor.

This way we could also explain why the hell Rhaena did not support Aegon on her own dragon during the Battle Above the Gods Eye and why she was later forced to (and able) to hide herself and her twin daughters on Fair Isle - because her dragon was already dead. If it had been alive she either would have died alongside Aegon and Quicksilver, one assumes, or she would have fled from Maegor on dragonback rather than trying to hide (which she would not have been able to do in the company of a dragon).

The dragon of Prince Viserys could easily have been killed by Maegor after he took the boy hostage and made him his squire (to prove a point or ensure that he would not escape) or later on when Maegor had Viserys killed.

Dreamfyre would then be Rhaena's second dragon - just as Quicksilver would have been Aegon's second dragon - given to her by Maegor in an attempt to show the Realm that the death of Visenya did not reduce the dragonriders Maegor controlled to himself on Balerion.

In addition, there are also the elder dragons during the Dance - Meleys and Caraxes - who both could have had riders prior to Princess Rhaenys and Prince Daemon, respectively. If Meleys was handed down through the ages her first rider actually could have been Alyssa Velaryon, handing down her dragon to her (great-)granddaughter when she died in the 70s (which could easily have been the time during which she died). Caraxes could originally have been ridden by Daemon's mother, Princess Alyssa, if we assume she died early (perhaps in childbirth).

And we of course have every reason to believe that Balerion, Vhagar, Dreamfyre may have had additional riders before they were claimed by Prince Viserys, Laena Velaryon, and Princess Helaena. Dreamfyre might have been ridden by Prince Baelon and/or Lady Aemma Arryn (after she became Viserys' wife and/or only when she became queen) before passing to Helaena. Vhagar could have been ridden by Prince Aemon (explaining how she ended up with his granddaughter, Laena Velaryon), and Balerion might have belonged to one of Jaehaerys' younger children before he passed to Prince Viserys.

@RumHam

I'd agree with you that there is only a very small chance that the Cannibal is/was not a Targaryen dragon, and 'The Sons of the Dragons' does not suggest that the Targaryens were messing with dragons during the days of the Conqueror. Gyldayn tells us that half a dozen dragons hatched during the reign of Aegon I - one of which would have been Quicksilver - and later on two others hatched when Aenys I named Maegor Hand.

The custom to put dragon eggs in the cradles of children or hand them to Targaryen children was apparently not known/practiced in the days of the Conqueror, either, because it is especially stated that Prince Aenys was given a dragon hatchling at the age of three, and Prince Maegor apparently never bonded with a dragon because he was never given an egg or a hatchling in his early childhood and later on he rejected all those 'lesser dragons'.

I'd assume that the Cannibal is either a dragon who hatched on Dragonstone prior to the Conquest or that he is one of the six hatchlings who hatched during the days of Aegon I. Sheepstealer might be one of them, too, but if he was one would assume he only hatched late during the reign of the Conqueror - or one of the two dragons who hatched during Aenys I's reign. All we know about him is that he hatched 'when the Old King was still young'. That could refer to the reign of Aegon I, Aenys I, Maegor I, or Jaehaerys I himself. We just don't know.

My gut feeling would be that a few dragons might have died during the reign of Aenys I and Maegor I - both due to the violence/fighting as well as due to the Cannibal's attacks on the hatcheries of Dragonstone. Some dragons were supposedly killed by the Cannibal and one assumes that this only happened during a time of chaos when nobody was guarding the hatcheries on the island (and no adult dragons like Vhagar and Balerion were around). I also doubt that Jaehaerys I didn't have the foresight to actually protect the young dragons against the Cannibal after he had taken the throne.

Grey Ghost seems to be the youngest of the wild dragons. Considering that nobody knew where he lived during the Dance he could even have hatched during the reign of Viserys I or the later half of the reign of Jaehaerys I.

The five dragons Aenar brought to Dragonstone are trickier. We don't know how old or big they were, nor do we know how long they lived. But it seems to be the case that there were no other dragons or dragonriders on Dragonstone besides the Targaryen siblings and their dragons by the time of the Conquest. And if that's correct then the best conclusion is indeed that all the younger dragons beginning with Quicksilver are the descendants of Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar.

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

The question how and how quickly a dragon egg hatches prompts the question how dragons actually fertilize their eggs. Do they have some sort of physical intercourse or does the male dragon only later fertilize the eggs the female has laid? We don't know that yet.

However, my idea would be that under normal circumstances a female dragons gets her eggs fertilized somehow and the natural way then is for the female to make a nest and sit on the eggs until the hatchlings come forth. Due to the Targaryens having 'the blood of the dragon' dragon eggs might have also hatched when they were kept warm and near a Targaryen but one would assume that this wasn't exactly the ideal way to get an egg to hatch.

We know that Syrax repeatedly produces clutches of eggs during the reign of Viserys I - most likely fertilized by either Seasmoke and/or Caraxes, and it seems that all the eggs given to Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon the Younger, Baela and Rhaena came from those clutches. Those three eggs Rhaena took with her to the Vale were Syrax's, too, and from one of those Morning apparently eventually hatched.

Whether the eggs from which Sunfyre, Tessarion, Morghul, and Shrykos came were Syrax's we do not know - Viserys I certainly would have had the authority to bestow the eggs of Rhaenyra's dragon on his children and grandchildren but it could be that other dragons had eggs during that time as well (say, Silverwing fertilized by Vermithor).

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double post

Edited by Lord Varys

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Isobel Harper

Laena's line actually survived. Both Baela and Rhaena had issue, and it seems as if the current Velaryons are direct descendants of Alyn and Baela wheres Rhaena's six daughters by Garmund may have carried the blood of the dragon into six other noble lines. And, in fact, it is all but confirmed that at least one such descendant was reabsorbed back into the main Targaryen line (Aelinor Penrose). And if Ronnel Penrose is also a descendant of Rhaena and Garmund then Elaena's four children by him (one of which was even Laena!) are also descended from her.

<snip>

But their line is no longer related to the main Targaryen line. 

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Not sure if this was ever resolved but was there ever an explanation for why Aerys and his wife couldn't produce another child right after Rhaegar was born? According to tWoIaF, there were many miscarriages, stillborns or children that died before a year old. Why were they able to produce a child as strong as Rhaegar but couldn't do so until Viserys?

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3 hours ago, Tysha's New Man said:

Not sure if this was ever resolved but was there ever an explanation for why Aerys and his wife couldn't produce another child right after Rhaegar was born? According to tWoIaF, there were many miscarriages, stillborns or children that died before a year old. Why were they able to produce a child as strong as Rhaegar but couldn't do so until Viserys?

Nothing confirmed. One at least was apparently poisoned. Some people suspect the Maesters might have had a hand in it. Or it could be the result of Targaryen incest. Or just bad luck. It does seem suspicious to me the half a dozen or so failed attempts.

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9 hours ago, The Snow Bear said:

More a language thing:
Could the infamous "shrouds" also mean a veil worn to hide a disfigured/cut face?

Burial shrouds. 

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

The question how and how quickly a dragon egg hatches prompts the question how dragons actually fertilize their eggs. Do they have some sort of physical intercourse or does the male dragon only later fertilize the eggs the female has laid? We don't know that yet.

However, my idea would be that under normal circumstances a female dragons gets her eggs fertilized somehow and the natural way then is for the female to make a nest and sit on the eggs until the hatchlings come forth. Due to the Targaryens having 'the blood of the dragon' dragon eggs might have also hatched when they were kept warm and near a Targaryen but one would assume that this wasn't exactly the ideal way to get an egg to hatch.

We know that Syrax repeatedly produces clutches of eggs during the reign of Viserys I - most likely fertilized by either Seasmoke and/or Caraxes, and it seems that all the eggs given to Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon the Younger, Baela and Rhaena came from those clutches. Those three eggs Rhaena took with her to the Vale were Syrax's, too, and from one of those Morning apparently eventually hatched.

Whether the eggs from which Sunfyre, Tessarion, Morghul, and Shrykos came were Syrax's we do not know - Viserys I certainly would have had the authority to bestow the eggs of Rhaenyra's dragon on his children and grandchildren but it could be that other dragons had eggs during that time as well (say, Silverwing fertilized by Vermithor).

You raise an interesting topic with Rhaena. Her hatchling died several years before 129 AC.. Was she immediately given a new egg (or all three eggs), or was that only when she was sent to the Vale? How long did she pray over her eggs? When during the war was Morning born? All questions, the answers of which could shed more light on the issue. Perhaps, Fire and Blood will reveal something in this regard..

We know that Maelor was given his egg at birth, and that it hadn't hatched yet by 129 AC (nor, does it appear to be the case, by 130 AC, at Maelor's death). That's a three year range where an egg is in someone's possession and hasn't hatched yet. Though, of course, we don't know if Maelor's egg ever would have hatched, had he held it in his possession long enough. 

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6 minutes ago, The Snow Bear said:

Well yes that's what comes first into the mind, but is this the only possible meaning?

Gold their crowns,

Gold their shrouds.

Burial shrouds.  ;)

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7 minutes ago, The Snow Bear said:

Well yes that's what comes first into the mind, but is this the only possible meaning?

Of course not.  Prophecy is always fluid.  If it gets too specific, it doesn't work.

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20 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

You raise an interesting topic with Rhaena. Her hatchling died several years before 129 AC.. Was she immediately given a new egg (or all three eggs), or was that only when she was sent to the Vale? How long did she pray over her eggs? When during the war was Morning born? All questions, the answers of which could shed more light on the issue. Perhaps, Fire and Blood will reveal something in this regard..

We know that Maelor was given his egg at birth, and that it hadn't hatched yet by 129 AC (nor, does it appear to be the case, by 130 AC, at Maelor's death). That's a three year range where an egg is in someone's possession and hasn't hatched yet. Though, of course, we don't know if Maelor's egg ever would have hatched, had he held it in his possession long enough. 

I think it's telling that Rhaena was given an egg from a freshly laid clutch after her hatchling died. They didn't just give her an older egg that was laying around.

Viserys II's egg also never hatched, and I get the impression that after a certain amount of time it was accepted that it never would. He still carried it around with him, but he was a young kid so who knows why. Maybe he hoped it would still hatch, but that doesn't mean it was actually still a possibility. 

Quote

By all rights, the year 122 AC should have been a joyous one for House Targaryen. Princess Rhaenyra took to the birthing bed once more, and gave her uncle Daemon a second son, named Viserys after his grandsire. The child was smaller and less robust than his brother Aegon and his Velaryon half brothers, but proved to be a most precocious child … though, somewhat ominously, the dragon’s egg placed in his cradle never hatched. The greens took that for an ill omen and were not shy about saying as much.

It's not totally clear when the greens started talking about Viserys' egg not hatching, but I think it should have been fairly close to 122AC. Certainly before hostilities broke out. 

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24 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

You raise an interesting topic with Rhaena. Her hatchling died several years before 129 AC.. Was she immediately given a new egg (or all three eggs), or was that only when she was sent to the Vale? How long did she pray over her eggs? When during the war was Morning born? All questions, the answers of which could shed more light on the issue. Perhaps, Fire and Blood will reveal something in this regard..

We know that Maelor was given his egg at birth, and that it hadn't hatched yet by 129 AC (nor, does it appear to be the case, by 130 AC, at Maelor's death). That's a three year range where an egg is in someone's possession and hasn't hatched yet. Though, of course, we don't know if Maelor's egg ever would have hatched, had he held it in his possession long enough. 

I had forgotten that Prince Viserys also had an egg. He would have had his most likely from birth, too, but it never hatched for some reason. I imagine Rhaena's egg hatched around the same time as Baela's meaning that her dragon would have been about as old as Moondancer by the time of the Dance had it lived. But that's just a guess.

Rhaena would then have been given her three eggs only when she left for the Vale. One assumes that this was a precautionary measure to prevent dragon eggs from falling in the hands of the Greens.

How old all Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon, Jaehaerys, and Jaehara were when their eggs hatched we don't know, either. But it seems Morghul and Shrykos were about the size or slightly smaller than Dany's dragons are right now considering that they could still be killed be pretty easily. That could mean they were only 2-3 years old in 130 AC.

Stormclould wouldn't have been much older - he certainly wasn't bigger.

However, if we consider the weirdo dragon sex changing thing then actually Vhagar could have been the father of Syrax's eggs - at least of the first clutch(es) from which Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, Moondancer, and Rhaena's dead dragon came from. After all, we know that Laena and Rhaenyra were apparently very close after Laena and Daemon settled on Driftmark, and they often visiting each other on dragonback. The eggs going to Aegon the Younger and Prince Viserys might have been fertilized by Caraxes considering that it makes sense to assume Caraxes and Syrax would have been very close after Rhaenyra and Daemon had married each other.

If the whole mating dance thing between Seasmoke and Tessarion is true during Second Tumbleton then Seasmoke might never have fertilized eggs prior to that point (would make sense since Rhaenyra and Laenor were never close and never spent much time together).

Another really interesting question would be who the hell did have intercourse with Vermax if she (?) laid any eggs at Winterfell. Perhaps Moondancer, perhaps Arrax or Tyraxes?

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To clarify it seems Rhaena was given one egg "recently" at the start of the dance, from a fresh clutch laid by Syrax. I think this is important because it might suggest they had to wait for a fresh batch of eggs. They didn't just give her one that was laying around right after her first one had died.

 The other two were apparently given to her later, probably out of desperation or as Lord Varys suggests to keep the hatch-able eggs out of the hands of their enemies. 

Quote

Rhaena’s egg had hatched a broken thing that died within hours of emerging from the egg, Syrax had recently produced another clutch. One of her eggs had been given to Rhaena, and it was said that the girl slept with it every night, and prayed for a dragon to match her sister’s.

 

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