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Small Questions v. 10105

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1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

Gold their crowns,

Gold their shrouds.

Burial shrouds.  ;)

Always thought it was their hair, since they made a big deal of it in the books. The shroud and the crowns being one and the same. Nobody else looked twice at the hair because they were half Lannister, or believed to be. Their hair was their golden crowd, but also obscured the truth.

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52 minutes ago, Ser Creighton said:

Always thought it was their hair, since they made a big deal of it in the books. The shroud and the crowns being one and the same. Nobody else looked twice at the hair because they were half Lannister, or believed to be. Their hair was their golden crowd, but also obscured the truth.

You could interpret "their crown" as being their hair, but in this case it is abundantly clear that it refers to being crowned, or being referred to as king or queen.  The burial shrouds of gold, reaffirm that they are royalty when they die. 

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2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I think it's telling that Rhaena was given an egg from a freshly laid clutch after her hatchling died. They didn't just give her an older egg that was laying around.

Viserys II's egg also never hatched, and I get the impression that after a certain amount of time it was accepted that it never would. He still carried it around with him, but he was a young kid so who knows why. Maybe he hoped it would still hatch, but that doesn't mean it was actually still a possibility. 

It's not totally clear when the greens started talking about Viserys' egg not hatching, but I think it should have been fairly close to 122AC. Certainly before hostilities broke out. 

Why fairly close to 122 AC? No one is saying anything similar concerning Maelor, who had a non-hatching egg for three years. They could have said such after several years of seeing how Viserys's egg wouldn't hatch, right?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I had forgotten that Prince Viserys also had an egg. He would have had his most likely from birth, too, but it never hatched for some reason. I imagine Rhaena's egg hatched around the same time as Baela's meaning that her dragon would have been about as old as Moondancer by the time of the Dance had it lived. But that's just a guess.

Rhaena would then have been given her three eggs only when she left for the Vale. One assumes that this was a precautionary measure to prevent dragon eggs from falling in the hands of the Greens.

How old all Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon, Jaehaerys, and Jaehara were when their eggs hatched we don't know, either. But it seems Morghul and Shrykos were about the size or slightly smaller than Dany's dragons are right now considering that they could still be killed be pretty easily. That could mean they were only 2-3 years old in 130 AC.

Stormclould wouldn't have been much older - he certainly wasn't bigger.

However, if we consider the weirdo dragon sex changing thing then actually Vhagar could have been the father of Syrax's eggs - at least of the first clutch(es) from which Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, Moondancer, and Rhaena's dead dragon came from. After all, we know that Laena and Rhaenyra were apparently very close after Laena and Daemon settled on Driftmark, and they often visiting each other on dragonback. The eggs going to Aegon the Younger and Prince Viserys might have been fertilized by Caraxes considering that it makes sense to assume Caraxes and Syrax would have been very close after Rhaenyra and Daemon had married each other.

If the whole mating dance thing between Seasmoke and Tessarion is true during Second Tumbleton then Seasmoke might never have fertilized eggs prior to that point (would make sense since Rhaenyra and Laenor were never close and never spent much time together).

Another really interesting question would be who the hell did have intercourse with Vermax if she (?) laid any eggs at Winterfell. Perhaps Moondancer, perhaps Arrax or Tyraxes?

Well, Dany's dragons are only 1,5 years old, at the end of Dance, so if those dragons are supposed to be of a similar size, they would have been rather young still at the start of the Dance.

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15 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Well, Dany's dragons are only 1,5 years old, at the end of Dance, so if those dragons are supposed to be of a similar size, they would have been rather young still at the start of the Dance.

I'm taking into account that the dragons did grow much slower than Dany's dragons. Else Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Tessarion must have been veritable giants in comparison to Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal but nothing suggests as much.

Even if we go with the assumption that Laenor's sons grew exceptionally quick and were already of the size of grown adults during the Dance (that is actually indicated by the idea that Joffrey Velaryon - a three-year-old! - would threaten his ten-year-old uncle Prince Aemond).

We know bastards are supposed to grow quicker and hints in that direction might even be in AGoT with Joffrey - a twelve-year-old - already being bigger than both Robb and Jon.

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

To clarify it seems Rhaena was given one egg "recently" at the start of the dance, from a fresh clutch laid by Syrax. I think this is important because it might suggest they had to wait for a fresh batch of eggs. They didn't just give her one that was laying around right after her first one had died.

 The other two were apparently given to her later, probably out of desperation or as Lord Varys suggests to keep the hatch-able eggs out of the hands of their enemies. 

There is a mystery to Rhaena's whereabouts during the Dance. We know she left with Joffrey Velaryon to the Vale, but that's it. Rhaenyra at first only moves with her dragon and her army to KL but after the Red Keep is secure she sends for her ladies on Dragonstone and has Joff return to her from the Vale.

But Rhaena is never mentioned again, and neither is any explanation why the hell Baela - one of Rhaenyra's ladies, too - remained back on Dragonstone.

From Ran we know that about 10,000 Vale men fought for Rhaenyra during the Dance under command of the Corbray brothers but we have no idea in which battles or where. We also do not know when Rhaena married Corwyn Corbray - during of after the Dance?

In light of the fact that Rhaenyra declined the offer to go to the Vale instead of Dragonstone it seems unlikely that Morning had already hatched at that point - or if it did, it and Rhaena most likely weren't in the Vale when that happened. Or it happened around at that time and word of that never reached Rhaenyra. Her main reason to go to Dragonstone was to hatch more dragon eggs, after all.

We also have no clue where the hell Rhaena was during Aegon II's short restoration. My guess is she was with the Vale troops/Corbrays but that's really just a guess. She could have been anywhere.

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Are these "skins" some type of bagpipe? I am assuming so because of the obvious, but not sure if it could be another medieval type instrument. I never noticed these descriptions and it sorta threw me during a re-listen today and I don't remember reading those descriptions in the past. I know this is a very important question that will determine who Dany marries and how many babies she will squeeze out.

"the skins skirled a lively tune, but the drumming drove them all.

"strings and horns and skins.

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5 hours ago, MtnLion said:

You could interpret "their crown" as being their hair, but in this case it is abundantly clear that it refers to being crowned, or being referred to as king or queen.  The burial shrouds of gold, reaffirm that they are royalty when they die. 

It basically reads gold will be their crowns and gold their death right? I don't need a golden shroud to tell me they were royalty because they already had the golden crowns and are introduced as the royal family. Why I say the hair is because it was the hair that led to them being exposed, it was a catalyst for a lot of later events.

It can be read as a rather simple they will be born royalty and die royalty. But in the chapter, the tone seems more ominous and of course Mags buries the dagger there. Anyway at the very least the hair is connected to the book (and their heads of course), and it was the revelation of the book to Cersei, and Ned threatening to use it to expose her and her Children that would lead to Roberts death, and of course his death led to all kinds of problems. The hair did act as a shroud but also exposed them and would lead to many a crazy event. It's strange but hair color was a huge catalyst and it is regularly referred  to as gold in the books, just Tyrions hair. 

It's not that I think you are wrong I just think their was more than one meaning and Martin being clever. Who makes hair an event catalyst? Hmmm. Okay who outside Hollywood, NY and France makes hair an event?

Any what was the line? The Black before the Gold or whatever. Take a look at the line and who is reading it? There seem to be a couple of things there, Golden hair and of course as you say crowns. Think about it, you are an R+l=J fan. Jon took the black, the black before the gold. Jon is tied to Ned and Robert and the Rebellion and Robert becoming a king. It may be nothing, but look at the text. Not that one line, who discovered it? Jon. Who is probably a shrouded royal? Jon. Who took Black? Jon. May be nothing, in that aspect, but you never know with Marty.

Edited by Ser Creighton

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Well, perhaps I have to clarify myself.

I got the obvious meaning of funeral shrouds but as a non native speaker I'm interested in other meanings of the word, which could thereby change the meaning of the prophecy

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11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Are these "skins" some type of bagpipe?

I believe so, since animal hides are traditionally used as the instrument's bag.

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7 hours ago, The Snow Bear said:

Well, perhaps I have to clarify myself.

I got the obvious meaning of funeral shrouds but as a non native speaker I'm interested in other meanings of the word, which could thereby change the meaning of the prophecy

A shroud can be something that hides something- ie. "the truth is shrouded in darkness."  It can also be any garment that covers the body.  The wedding cloaks that we've seen, meant to represent protection, could be described as shrouds.

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18 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Why fairly close to 122 AC? No one is saying anything similar concerning Maelor, who had a non-hatching egg for three years. They could have said such after several years of seeing how Viserys's egg wouldn't hatch, right

Just the impression I get from reading that part of The Rogue Prince is that the greens were mocking Viserys back then, before the war. It could have been three years from then, or longer. Still I suspect the eggs normally hatch while the infant is still in the cradle. I could be wrong though. 

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17 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Just the impression I get from reading that part of The Rogue Prince is that the greens were mocking Viserys back then, before the war. It could have been three years from then, or longer. Still I suspect the eggs normally hatch while the infant is still in the cradle. I could be wrong though. 

We have two examples as to when exactly it was thought proper for a young Targaryen to bond with a dragon. Prince Aenys received Quicksilver at the age of three, and Rhaenyra mounted Syrax at the age of seven. From the example of Aegon the Younger we know that you can hang out with your dragon for some time before you actually mount it and fly, so one assumes that young Rhaenyra had Syrax as a hatchling for a few years before the they flew together for the first time.

The Aenys example is especially interesting because he had reverted to a crawling stage in that year when he lost his mother, and was very sick. Yet nobody thought it dangerous to give a dragon hatchling to the boy.

That could indeed mean that the dragon eggs given to the royal children were supposed to hatch at one point in their childhood - however it might have been the rule that they hatched while they were still infants.

Thinking about the whole thing again:

The freshness of eggs might indeed have been an important factor and explain why there was eventually a problem to hatch the remaining eggs - there weren't exactly all that fresh. I guess the likelihood of an egg dropped with the amount of time that had passed since it was laid but Daenerys' success seems to prove that dragon eggs never truly die - the spell only reawakened life that lay dormant, it did not create dragons out of thin air (if that works, then Dany wouldn't have needed any dragon eggs at all).

This could also help explain why hatching the eggs during the reign of Aegon III became problematic. The eggs were no longer fresh, and while we know that the last dragon left a clutch of five eggs we don't know how many fresh eggs the Targaryens had left after the Dance and Regency. Morning is the last dragon we know by name and I guess it must have produced other viable eggs or else the hatching of the last dragons in the 150s wouldn't have happened. This would make it likely that another dragon hatched early on in the reign of Aegon III or Morning and Silverwing somehow had some private moments later in life.

I guess if there hatched another healthy dragon after Morning then Baela is the most likely to have claimed it. Aegon III was too afraid, and Prince Viserys may have returned too late. 

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35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Aenys example is especially interesting because he had reverted to a crawling stage in that year when he lost his mother, and was very sick. Yet nobody thought it dangerous to give a dragon hatchling to the boy.

I'm basing my reply on the notes concerning the Sons of the Dragon reading that you posted in 2014. Since Aenys's state first had to decline, and Aegon was only presented with multiple potential brides (who he all refused) after Aenys's decline took so long that people began to worry, (due to him being Aegon's only heir),  I'd assume that "shortly after the death of his mother" indicates that he bonded with Quicksilver the year after Rhaenys had died, when Aenys was some 4 years old. However, we hear only about Aenys bonding with Quicksilver, nothing about him receiving an egg. In fact, could it be possible that the child bonded with Quicksilver without the supervision or original approval of an adult? Sort of like how Aemond bonded with Vhagar?

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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57 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I'm basing my reply on the notes concerning the Sons of the Dragon reading that you posted in 2014. Since Aenys's state first had to decline, and Aegon was only presented with multiple potential brides (who he all refused) after Aenys's decline took so long that people began to worry, (due to him being Aegon's only heir),  I'd assume that "shortly after the death of his mother" indicates that he bonded with Quicksilver the year after Rhaenys had died, when Aenys was some 4 years old. However, we hear only about Aenys bonding with Quicksilver, nothing about him receiving an egg. In fact, could it be possible that the child bonded with Quicksilver without the supervision or original approval of an adult? Sort of like how Aemond bonded with Vhagar?

I've just gone back on that. Gyldayn tells the story in a different order than Yandel. It is actually not clear when Quicksilver is given to Aenys but it is clear that he is given to him as a hatchling not in egg form, and neither does Aenys claim him all by himself like Maegor, Aemond and others later would have claimed riderless adult dragons.

There is however another tidbit I just recovered stating that Quicksilver was 'born that same year' on Dragonstone. In context this seems to refer to the year 7 AC, Aenys' year of birth, because prior to that we only get a lengthy description of young Aenys - watery eyes, spindly legs, unwilling to take milk from any wetnurses, and him crying for a fortnight when he was weaned (which might have actually been in the year of his birth considering that this was in the middle of the First Dornish War and Queen Rhaenys was most likely expected to accompany her royal siblings during dragon attacks on the Dornish castles).

The account on Rhaenys' death follows immediately thereafter, stating that Aenys was three when his mother died in Dorne - and he then refused to eat and began to crawl again as he had when he was one. Aegon supposedly despaired of the boy then. But that wasn't the only reason for people thinking Aegon should/would remarry - Visenya was childless and perhaps barren. A lot of lords and knights showed up at court bringing their maiden daughters with them but  Aegon's own thoughts on the matter are unknown.

All speculation died when Visenya 'suddenly announced that she was carrying the king's child' confidently proclaiming that it would be a boy. This is pretty interesting because Gyldayn's choice of words only tells us what Visenya said Maegor was, not that he actually was Aegon's seed.

But I digress. What we can say confidently on the basis of 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading is that Aenys might actually have been given the hatchling Quicksilver in his year of birth, or perhaps only as late as 8 AC, but that's it. My earlier speculation about infants not getting dragon hatchlings is clearly wrong.

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does anyone have a chart with each house's sigil and motto?
i would be very interested to see such.
all references will be appreciated !
 

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Here is alphabetical list of all known house words from Westeros http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Words

Here is article about heraldry from Wiki of Ice and Fire: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Heraldry

Here is list of noble houses from the Known World, articles have sigils if sigil is known; http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Noble_houses

There is chart with about 40 house sigils in hardcover 'World of Ice and Fire'

Artist called Other-In-Law did map of Westeros with sigils http://7kingdoms.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/westeros_by_other_in_law-d38yn2d.jpg

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I tried to find a better spot for this but couldn't so sorry if this is the wrong place but I noticed something from ADWD that's odd. This is from chapter 22 in ADWD (the U.S. Kindle version).

“Triarch Horonno. A Volantene hero from the Century of Blood. He was returned as triarch every year for forty years, until he wearied of elections and declared himself triarch for life. The Volantenes were not amused. He was put to death soon after. Tied between TWO elephants and torn in half.”

Notice it says TWO elephants. In the world book as well as the wiki it says FOUR as well as a lovely picture of FOUR elephants tied to the poor guy. 

This really isn't a big deal at all but I'm just curious about it. Is this just a mistake made by Haldon in his history lesson? Is this just an oversight by the world book? Has this been noticed before and I'm just wasting people's time? Thanks!

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I tried to find a better spot for this but couldn't so sorry if this is the wrong place but I noticed something from ADWD that's odd. This is from chapter 22 in ADWD (the U.S. Kindle version).

“Triarch Horonno. A Volantene hero from the Century of Blood. He was returned as triarch every year for forty years, until he wearied of elections and declared himself triarch for life. The Volantenes were not amused. He was put to death soon after. Tied between TWO elephants and torn in half.”

Notice it says TWO elephants. In the world book as well as the wiki it says FOUR as well as a lovely picture of FOUR elephants tied to the poor guy. 

This really isn't a big deal at all but I'm just curious about it. Is this just a mistake made by Haldon in his history lesson? Is this just an oversight by the world book? Has this been noticed before and I'm just wasting people's time? Thanks!

ADWD says two. The World of Ice and FIre makes no mention of the amount of elephants, and while the image displays four, the images are non canon.

Thus, there were two elephants, and whoever wrote the wiki entry made a mistake. It has been corrected.

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46 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

Thus, there were two elephants, and whoever wrote the wiki entry made a mistake. It has been corrected.

Wait a second!  Does this mean I helped contribute to the awesomeness that is westeros.org? I feel so accomplished! Thanks RT!

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3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

ADWD says two. The World of Ice and FIre makes no mention of the amount of elephants, and while the image displays four, the images are non canon.

Thus, there were two elephants, and whoever wrote the wiki entry made a mistake. It has been corrected.

An earlier version of TWoIaF actually still mentioned that it had been two elephants and I think I pointed out to Ran that they should try to make the sentence fit the picture better. The pictures might not be canon but the reader might feel irritated or cheated if the text does not fit the pictures (or vice versa). Not sure if I was the crucial factor there. Anybody else reading this early version would have realized the discrepancy ;-).

And there was a lot of tweaking done with the portraits, too. The crown in the picture of Aegon's coronation was changed from a golden band to the familiar steel-and-ruby crown, and the mistresses of Aegon the Unworthy had to be reworked, too, to better fit George's descriptions.

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