Jump to content
Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10105

Recommended Posts

Has it ever been confirmed by Martin what actually went down at the Tower of Joy?

More precisely, has anyone looked into the idea that maybe none of the three kingsguard present died?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, lujo said:

Has it ever been confirmed by Martin what actually went down at the Tower of Joy?

More precisely, has anyone looked into the idea that maybe none of the three kingsguard present died?

The first question kind of looks at the whole thing the wrong way. We don't get 'Martin's' view (except normally tantalizing hints in interviews) - what we get is characters' POVs. In this case we've got Ned's semi-hallucinatory dream which i'd say is not totally reliable, and second hand accounts of what Ned told his family. There are certainly many questions unresolved, but not, I think, the one you're asking.

Those 3 kings guards were national celebrities - there's no way they could have lived and no one tell the tale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ty. It's not the place to argue, but people keep saying how Dayne could kill 5 men while taking a leak, and as it happens there were 7 stark guys and 5 are dead, and Dayne even had 2 guys backing him up. Gerold could have holed up at the top of the high tower, there's already some pretty secretive Highttowers holed up there, noone's seen them in years, and as long as Arthur left the sword in Starfall he could probably hole up somewhere with noone even thinking about looking for him (wherever Howland Reed is would be my bet). I was asking because I've never seen anyone speculate on the potential whereabouts of Oswell Whent. I'd take a cracked pot on that, even.

Edited by lujo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree that given Arthur Dayne's reputation, along with his sword Dawn, it does seem incredulous that he could have been defeated by young Ned and his men, and I'm pretty sure there's more to the tale than has currently been revealed. I also suspect Dawn has a key role to play. The only point where I differ is in accepting that they have been alive and in hiding for the last 20 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

Well the twins who's true names are Moon and Morning, both got married, to a Hightower and a Velaryon, so both Princess and Lady. Their brothers were Kings.

The title "Lady" refers to both girls prior to the end of the Dance, however, definitely prior to Baela's marriage, and most likely also prior to any marriage of Rhaena. And even if they got married, wouldn't they keep their title of "Princess", if they had held that title prior to the wedding?

 

Their brothers were Kings, but that doesn't make them princesses, does it? Their brothers descended from a direct line, and had been in direct line for the throne since the day they were born, as their mother, Rhaenra, was the Crown Princess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/18/2016 at 3:30 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The title "Lady" refers to both girls prior to the end of the Dance, however, definitely prior to Baela's marriage, and most likely also prior to any marriage of Rhaena. And even if they got married, wouldn't they keep their title of "Princess", if they had held that title prior to the wedding?

 

Their brothers were Kings, but that doesn't make them princesses, does it? Their brothers descended from a direct line, and had been in direct line for the throne since the day they were born, as their mother, Rhaenra, was the Crown Princess.

Their father was also a prince, but you are dealing with mostly courtesy titles to begin with. You can be both a Princess and a Lady. Lady Diana the Princess of Wales. Titles go all over the place, Take Prince Andrew, the Brother of the Crown Prince his children area also titled Prince and Princess. Charles is both a Prince and Duke as his brother is and his other brother a prince and an Earl.

The girls Grandfather never was King so would they be Blood Royal, this is a very complicated etiquette question and we don't have the Westeros rules for etiquette. Was Daemon a King Consort? His wife was a queen and sat the Iron Throne, although briefly. The greens won but they lost. Daemon may have refered to them as Princesses, and Rhaenyra as well, but Aegon may have refereed to them as ladies.  

If you are going by British rules, it depends on the date, if you are going by Westeros rules it depends on the rules which we don't have them.

Then it goes into their mother, who married Daemon but did not have consent but was later accepted at court, and the daughters received the Kings blessing. But she married and he had a third wife and more children. The boys would carry the title Prince. Did they get that from the female line? They would both be kings but they were Princes first. Were they ever called Lords? The same basic rules apply if they were British. What are their title rights? It's title and style, Prince is a title the style could be Highness or Royal Highness. How did that play out with the girls?

It's such a hot mess in the Daemon, Dance, multiple marriages, consent, non consent, blessing, rules we don't have, and Princes that are Princes and Princesses that are Ladies both having the same father so the titles descend from his line. Unless they don't. Because they were called princes before she was a queen. I think, it's so hard to tell. I go with Courtesy titles as we don't know the title rights and rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Archmaester Gyldayn only calls Baela and Rhaena Targaryen 'Lady' in TPatQ. I actually pointed that out to Ran and this may have caused the change from 'Princess' to 'Lady' in the sidebar on the dragons during the Dance (which had Princes Baela and Princess Rhaena in an earlier version).

Both girls are only great-grandchildren of a king through the male line and great-great-grandchildren of a king through the female line. And both only through cadet branches.

Laenor Velaryon is also never referred to as 'prince' by Gyldayn.

Great-grandchildren of the British Monarch still don't get styled 'prince' by default and Elizabeth II actually withheld 'princely status' from some of her grandchildren through the male line to keep them more out of the spotlight (to which they were actually entitled). Grandchildren of the monarch through the female line aren't not entitled to that at all (e.g. Princess Anne's children - they were offered special titles but their parents declined them).

There are rules for this kind of thing. My guess is that great-grandchildren of a king through the male line don't get the title in Westeros, either, and neither do royal grandchildren through the female line. For instance Steffon Baratheon, grandson of Aegon V, wasn't 'Prince Steffon'. The Plumm and Penrose children of Princess Elaena weren't princes and princesses, either, and so on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Syphon the Sanitator said:

Did Aegon and his sisters sit on saddles while riding their dragons? Did anybody?

We don't have direct confirmation of this, but the dragonriders during the Dance did. So I would say yes. I doubt dragon saddles were developed between the Conquest and the Dance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, maicao said:

I just bought the books, but I'm a lazy person :thumbsdown:

Any advice?

You're on the forum, so you're going to need to amass a huge amount of knowledge in order to contribute to many discussions.

Read the main series at least twice, The World of Ice and Fire three times, and don't forget the Dunk & Egg and Dance of Dragons prequels! And Study the Known World map until you know it inside-out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a theme of "sin" being cut away in the series: Davos' fingers due to smuggling, Jamie's hand fire killing Aerys.  ...So why was Theon's Penis cut off?  I get that it was retribution of sorts for him betraying the Starks, but why that part? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

There's a theme of "sin" being cut away in the series: Davos' fingers due to smuggling, Jamie's hand fire killing Aerys.  ...So why was Theon's Penis cut off?  I get that it was retribution of sorts for him betraying the Starks, but why that part? 

It was the part he loved best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

There's a theme of "sin" being cut away in the series: Davos' fingers due to smuggling, Jamie's hand fire killing Aerys.  ...So why was Theon's Penis cut off?  I get that it was retribution of sorts for him betraying the Starks, but why that part? 

Killing the sons he fathered?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22.6.2016 at 2:02 AM, maicao said:

I just bought the books, but I'm a lazy person :thumbsdown:

Any advice?

Audiobooks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its been bothering me that Tywin Lannister married his cousin.  He is all about his legacy and he marries for love?  It would have been smarter for him to marry a lady from a great house to make himself stronger.  I know he was already the second most powerful person in the realm but still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×