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Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10105

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5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think it is that simple. 

That is what I thought too. Thanks. 

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12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Random, oddball question here:

So if the old gods are no more than the greenseers, as is often described, does that mean the red wedding pissed off Bloodraven and Bloodraven is seeking his payment?

Well since I don't really think divine intervention exists in ASOIAF, I'm going to say no. The Red Weding pissed of the families and supporters of its's victims, who then seek revenge. 

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43 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Well since I don't really think divine intervention exists in ASOIAF, I'm going to say no. The Red Weding pissed of the families and supporters of its's victims, who then seek revenge. 

But would any action taken by Bloodraven be considered divine intervention? He is only a powerful Greenseer, using magic, not an actual god. 

I think the point @The Fattest Leech was trying to get at was, that because violating guest rights is said to be an affront to the gods, and the Greenseers are actually the ones behind what the people perceive as gods, would this not make violating guest rights an insult to Bloodraven? Am I on the mark here?

Edited by Darkstream

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3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

But would any action taken by Bloodraven be considered divine intervention? He is only a powerful Greenseer, using magic, not an actual god. 

I think the point @The Fattest Leech was trying to get at was, that because violating guest rights is said to be an affront to the gods, and the Greenseers are actually the ones behind what the people perceive as gods, would this not make violating guest rights an insult to Bloodraven? Am I on the mark here?

What is the difference between a wizard and a god?

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3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

But would any action taken by Bloodraven be considered divine intervention? He is only a powerful Greenseer, using magic, not an actual god. 

I think the point @The Fattest Leech was trying to get at was, that because violating guest rights is said to be an affront to the gods, and the Greenseers are actually the ones behind what the people perceive as gods, would this not make violating guest rights an insult to Bloodraven? Am I on the mark here?

But there isn't anything to indicate Bloodraven has done anything in response to the Red Wedding. All of the repercussions have been either social stigma or revenge from those who were victims/families. IMO the whole "affront to the gods" is just the Westerosi way of enforcing....whatever the phrase would be. Social norms, or whatever the right phrase is. 

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4 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Mortality?

I think I could make an argument that greenseers and every other being never completely die. Rather their individual consciousnesses fade into the godhood of the old gods. 

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I've been listening to Ian Glen read the story of the Targaryen civil war; the Dance of the Dragons on YouTube.  Where is he reading it from?  Is there a published story somewhere?  I can't find it anywhere and I need it for my collection!!

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18 minutes ago, KellieBom said:

I've been listening to Ian Glen read the story of the Targaryen civil war; the Dance of the Dragons on YouTube.  Where is he reading it from?  Is there a published story somewhere?  I can't find it anywhere and I need it for my collection!!

Iain Glen narrates "The Princess and the Queen" in the audiobook version of the Dangerous Women anthology (Amazon).

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14 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But there isn't anything to indicate Bloodraven has done anything in response to the Red Wedding. All of the repercussions have been either social stigma or revenge from those who were victims/families. IMO the whole "affront to the gods" is just the Westerosi way of enforcing....whatever the phrase would be. Social norms, or whatever the right phrase is. 

Yes, I would agree with what you are saying. And I don't want to speak for The Fattest Leach, as perhaps she was getting at something else, but I was just using the Red Wedding as an example. Really what I was getting at is, as @Lost Melnibonean said, what's the difference between a Greenseer and a god? Are what the people perceive to be the Old Gods, actually just Greenseers? Or is there an omniscient deity at work behind the scenes, whom is the source of the Greenseer's powers?

Edited by Darkstream

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2 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

Mortality?

As well, I would say that a god would be an omniscient being, responsible for creation, not just a random person born into an already existing world, who happens to develop powers.

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25 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Yes, I would agree with what you are saying. And I don't want to speak for The Fattest Leach, as perhaps she was getting at something else, but I was just using the Red Wedding as an example. Really what I was getting at is, as @Lost Melnibonean said, what's the difference between a Greenseer and a god? Are what the people perceive to be the Old Gods, actually just Greenseers? Or is there an omniscient diety at work behind the scenes, whom is the source of the Greenseer's powers?

Oh right. I think this maybe strays a bit from The Fattest Leech's original question, or I've completely misunderstood the whole exchange in which case just ignore me. But my take on what you say is that the CotF worshipped the weirwoods because they knew that their Greenseers became the Weirwood network and could see things. The First Men either didn't understand this, or have forgotten it over time, and simply believe they are worshipping some gods which are represented by the Weirwoods/for which the Weirwood is like an altar or something where they offer prayer and sacrifice. Greenseers are, IMO, the only "gods" we will ever see in the series because they are not truly gods, simply powerful magical beings. I don't think there is an omniscient deity at work behind them no.

this probably makes no sense but it's hot and its the most coherent I can make it.

(I've also tried to start a new thread several times but can't get the OP to copy over properly so I have just let this thread continue)

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What is the difference between a wizard and a god?

A pointy hat? 

8 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Well since I don't really think divine intervention exists in ASOIAF, I'm going to say no. The Red Weding pissed of the families and supporters of its's victims, who then seek revenge. 

This is kinda what me and a friend were discussing. To me it seems like a diety of some sort exists and just uses greenseers in some lose way like a servant. What gives the power to bring Cat back? Who are those other CotF hooked up to the weirnet under the cave? Ugh! It is confusing. 

30 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Yes, I would agree with what you are saying. And I don't want to speak for The Fattest Leach, as perhaps she was getting at something else, but I was just using the Red Wedding as an example. Really what I was getting at is, as @Lost Melnibonean said, what's the difference between a Greenseer and a god? Are what the people perceive to be the Old Gods, actually just Greenseers? Or is there an omniscient diety at work behind the scenes, whom is the source of the Greenseer's powers?

Yes. This is actually what a friend and I were talking about. We were trying to "get to the bottom" of the source of powers and who has what. He is a huge fan of LSH and the power-greenseers-Bloodraven connections brought up more questions than we could answer. 

Side note: He is a huge book fan and we talk ASOIAF frequently and I tried to get him to join here but he laughed and called me a nerd! Oh well. I made him pay for the sushi. 

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8 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Oh right. I think this maybe strays a bit from The Fattest Leech's original question, or I've completely misunderstood the whole exchange in which case just ignore me. But my take on what you say is that the CotF worshipped the weirwoods because they knew that their Greenseers became the Weirwood network and could see things. The First Men either didn't understand this, or have forgotten it over time, and simply believe they are worshipping some gods which are represented by the Weirwoods/for which the Weirwood is like an altar or something where they offer prayer and sacrifice. Greenseers are, IMO, the only "gods" we will ever see in the series because they are not truly gods, simply powerful magical beings. I don't think there is an omniscient deity at work behind them no.

this probably makes no sense but it's hot and its the most coherent I can make it.

(I've also tried to start a new thread several times but can't get the OP to copy over properly so I have just let this thread continue)

I think this is pretty close. 

But does this mean that Bloodraven gave the energy to Cat to seek revenge as LSH? Or am I dumbing things down too much? 

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21 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So if the old gods are no more than the greenseers,

Greenseers were the wise men of the CotF.  Maester Luwin gave me and Bran a history lesson. It's in the spoiler. Maybe that will info will help.

Spoiler

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

Maester Luwin tugged at his chain collar where it chafed against his neck. "They were people of the Dawn Age, the very first, before kings and kingdoms," he said. "In those days, there were no castles or holdfasts, no cities, not so much as a market town to be found between here and the sea of Dorne. There were no men at all. Only the children of the forest dwelt in the lands we now call the Seven Kingdoms.

"They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

"Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—"

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think this is pretty close. 

But does this mean that Bloodraven gave the energy to Cat to seek revenge as LSH? Or am I dumbing things down too much? 

Hmm, I don't think it was the old gods (Bloodraven anyway) at all with Cat, it was Beric passing on the "flame" from Thoros. The whole Beric/Thoros thing is a bit strange  and I don't really understand it, but I don't think BR was behind that (Iirc @Lost Melnibonean has a thread on that idea though, if you are interested)

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2 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Hmm, I don't think it was the old gods (Bloodraven anyway) at all with Cat, it was Beric passing on the "flame" from Thoros. The whole Beric/Thoros thing is a bit strange  and I don't really understand it, but I don't think BR was behind that (Iirc @Lost Melnibonean has a thread on that idea though, if you are interested)

Actually, I think I have seen that LM thread. I read it because it seemed to answer questions I had long running in my head because of the cave comparisons between Arya and Bran. I loved it! Thank you for mentioning it :thumbsup:

And Bloodraven not being behind that is what part of my question is. The more I think about it, the more questions I have... and its always when I think I just figured it all out :bang: Like Jon sees Ghost as of the old gods, and then he comapres Val to Ghost of the old gods and then he dewscribes himself as belonging to the old gods. Ok, ok. Forget I asked the question. I need coffee :)

Aaah! Oh well, I guess it will be more clear in later books?

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Please someone ... I've lost the link to the database search page, I need to find a quote & I am not with my books :)

 

(LOVE the conversation going on here & as soon as I find my quote I'll be back)

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30 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Please someone ... I've lost the link to the database search page, I need to find a quote & I am not with my books :)

 

(LOVE the conversation going on here & as soon as I find my quote I'll be back)

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

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8 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

<snip>

this probably makes no sense but it's hot and its the most coherent I can make it.

 

Not at all, makes perfect sense. Thanks for the reply. :)

33 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Please someone ... I've lost the link to the database search page, I need to find a quote & I am not with my books :)

 

(LOVE the conversation going on here & as soon as I find my quote I'll be back)

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

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