Small Questions v. 10105

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

33 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Not that I can find yet. From "The Windblown":

Should this be New Ghis, whose legions are mentioned a few times in ADWD? Old Ghis was ruined by Valyria.

Yes, the legions from New Ghis. I've found it, in the mean time, however. In the notes of the Barristan II reading of Winds, legions are mentioned to be six thousand men. I assume that count goes for all six of the legions..

[mystickristoff]

How old is Richard Horpe? According to the asoiaf wiki, he was a squire when Robert was already King. Squires are young right?

[RumHam]

52 minutes ago, mystickristoff said:

How old is Richard Horpe? According to the asoiaf wiki, he was a squire when Robert was already King. Squires are young right?

Quote

 

And how comes that the Manderlys have squires which are forty years old?

We tend to think of squires as teenaged boys, knights in training, but that is only part of the truth. Historically, there were many men who spent their entire lives as squires, and never became knights.It was quite common to have thirty- and forty-year-old squires, even some in their fifties. Such men perhaps did not have the wealth to become knights (knights had to pay for their own equipment), or perhaps did not have the inclination. They were the medieval counterparts of the career army sergeant who has no desire to be promoted to lieutenant. let alone general.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1045

 

[mystickristoff]

What alluded me was the asoiaf entry itself. Why specify "as a squire" when he was always a squire anyways?

 

History

As a squire Richard dreamed of being a member of the Kingsguard, but Queen Cersei Lannister spoke against him and KingRobert Baratheon passed him over. He is said to lust for battle. Stannis Baratheon refers to him as "the slayer".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1045

 

 

1 hour ago, mystickristoff said:

What alluded me was the asoiaf entry itself. Why specify "as a squire" when he was always a squire anyways?

 

History

As a squire Richard dreamed of being a member of the Kingsguard, but Queen Cersei Lannister spoke against him and KingRobert Baratheon passed him over. He is said to lust for battle. Stannis Baratheon refers to him as "the slayer".

While the SSM that RumHam quotes is definitely true, I personally suspect that the fact that Queen Cersei spoke against Horpe, causing him to not being admitted to the KG, implies that this occured during at least a little bit into Robert's reign (as Cersei was not yet Queen when Robert would have first chosen his KG, most likely).

So the fact that Horpe squired for Robert, and was later passed over as a KG, meaning he had been knighted by then at the very least, would to me suggest that he had been knighted early in Robert's reign, and thus, was still reasonably young at that point. If you aren't knighted at the age squires are usually knighted, there is probably a reason for it, and thus, suddenly acquiring knighthood years after the "average" age of acquiring knighthood seems a bit odd, to me.

 

As to why he is referred to as "as a squire".. because he's knighted by now. And perhaps, because he no longer dreams of being in the KG?

 

A completely speculative suggestion: Richard fought as a squire during the Greyjoy Rebellion, and was knighted at the end of it. Considering Ser Arys Oakheart seems to have joined around the same time as the Greyjoy Rebellion had ended, that might have been the position Richard had been hoping for, or perhaps there were more KG to die. For whatever reason, Cersei didn't want Horpe at the position, spoke against him, and killed his dream.

[mystickristoff]

Could this also mean that Horpe was too young during Robert's Rebellion? We know that Sandor didn't participate in it because he was still a boy at the time. Was Horpe also still a boy during that time?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, mystickristoff said:

Could this also mean that Horpe was too young during Robert's Rebellion? We know that Sandor didn't participate in it because he was still a boy at the time. Was Horpe also still a boy during that time?

Perhaps. It is all pure speculation about Horpe.

 

Sandor, however, was part of Tywin's army during the Sack, and the Sack might have been when Sandor killed his first man (at the age of twelve).

[mystickristoff]

And what is the "average age" that squires get knighted?

[RumHam]

21 minutes ago, mystickristoff said:

And what is the "average age" that squires get knighted?

I don't think we have enough data to determine that. For most of history it seems to have been an honor reserved for adults, as Maegor was the youngest knight ever when knighted at sixteen. Daemon Blackfyre I believe is still the youngest ever knighted that we know of (though I may be forgetting someone) at just twelve years old. (notably this was done by Aegon the Unworthy who really seems to have not given a fuck.) 

I'd imagine most knights are knighted between the ages of 17-25. But we do have people like Noye or Bronn being knighted at an older age due to special circumstances, thus throwing off the average. 

 

 

[mystickristoff]

Based on all this, what would be the estimated age for Richard Horpe during the end of Robert's Rebellion?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, mystickristoff said:

Based on all this, what would be the estimated age for Richard Horpe during the end of Robert's Rebellion?

If we assume he was knighted around 289 AC? I'd place his birth around 271-272 AC in that case.. But I have to emphasize, that this is purely speculative. 

The thing is, though, that Robert's reign was rather peaceful, with the exception of the Greyjoy Rebellion. So for Cersei to speak against Horpe when there was an opening in the KG, there must have been a KG who died, first. And I can't really see Robert naming any older men to his KG when he starts his reign, so any KG member to have died would most likely have died in battle, and the GR is the most likely moment for that (as seems to have been the case for Ser Arys's predecessor, which might also have been the position Horpe had been hoping for).

 

If Robert naming his KG took a long period of time, however, he might have been married to Cersei before all the five places that were left had been given away. In that case, Horpe might have tried out for a KG position in 284 AC. If that is the case, he could easily be some five to ten years younger, perhaps having received his knighthood during the war.

 

I know it's a bit vague, and it might turn out that we are wrong in any case.. We just have no numbers for this guy. Still, I hope this helps..

[mystickristoff]

Oh yes! It helps a great deal actually, thank you!

[Nittanian]

Quote

What now remains of the once-proud empire of Old Ghis is a paltry thing—a few cities clinging like sores to Slaver's Bay and another that pretends to be Old Ghis come again. For after the Doom came to Valyria, the cities of Slaver's Bay were able to throw off the last of the Valyrian shackles, ruling themselves in truth rather than playing at it. And what remained of the Ghiscari swiftly reestablished their trade in slaves—though where once they won them by conquest, now they purchased and bred them. (TWOIAF Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria)

 

Quote

For centuries Meereen and her sister cities Yunkai and Astapor had been the linchpins of the slave trade, the place where Dothraki khals and the corsairs of the Basilisk Isles sold their captives and the rest of the world came to buy. (ADWD Daenerys III)

These suggest to me that the Slaver Cities have not been continually dealing in slaves since the Old Empire of Ghis, but only began slaving again after the Doom of Valyria. The Dothraki only emerged after the Doom as well. Are there quotes indicating the Slaver Cities continued the slave trade while under Valyrian control, prior to the Doom?

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

 

These suggest to me that the Slaver Cities have not been continually dealing in slaves since the Old Empire of Ghis, but only began slaving again after the Doom of Valyria. The Dothraki only emerged after the Doom as well. Are there quotes indicating the Slaver Cities continued the slave trade while under Valyrian control, prior to the Doom?

As I read that quote, I was thinking it meant that slaving still went on but it was the Valyrians who were the slavemasters, as opposed to the Ghiscari who sound like they ruled themselves in name only

[Nittanian]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

As I read that quote, I was thinking it meant that slaving still went on but it was the Valyrians who were the slavemasters, as opposed to the Ghiscari who sound like they ruled themselves in name only

Do we have any indication when the institution of the Unsullied began? We know some were hired by Qohor during the Century of Blood (when the Ghiscari had "reestablished their trade in slaves"), but any further back and they would have been trained while Astapor was part of the Freehold. TWOIAF also states "the Astapori pretend that they are the lockstep legions of the Old Empire come again, but those men were free, and the Unsullied are not."

[The Fattest Leech]

Really silly question here, but it Jon's training of NW archers and Sam's archery training at the wall and on the Cinnamon Wind some sort of speculation/ foreshadowing that we get a new rag tag team of Ravens Teeth? Or is this just basically gearing up for the usage of the obsidian arrow heads for later? 

Thanks. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Really silly question here, but it Jon's training of NW archers and Sam's archery training at the wall and on the Cinnamon Wind some sort of speculation/ foreshadowing that we get a new rag tag team of Ravens Teeth? Or is this just basically gearing up for the usage of the obsidian arrow heads for later? 

Thanks. 

Or maybe a dragonslayer...

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or maybe a dragonslayer...

That is the eeeasy answer 

I think I need my own questions thread titled 

[Philokles]

Do we know who replaced Gwayne Gaunt (after he died during the Defiance of Duskendale) in Aerys II's Kingsguard? It cannot be Barristan, Jaime or Gerold Hightower, but unless I'm missing something it is not specified which of Lewyn Martell, Harlan Grandison, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent or Jonothor Darry it was.

 

EDIT: I've been looking further and Arthur Dayne was a Kingsguard member at the time of Viserys' birth in 276, so that is him excluded too.

[Nikhil Singh]

Did Sander fight in the Greyjoy rebellion